All-cities Italians: the best?

[Namealreadytaken]

I noticed that Italian factions get wonderful militia units in their cities, when their castle infantry sucks and their cavalry is nothing special (BTW, they can rise some cavalry in cities too). Since towns tend to generate a lot of money, would it be an unwise solotion to turn every milanese/sicilian/venetian castle into a city?

[alpaca]

Well you'd miss out on Venetian archers, VHI and such but from a sheer power perspective it's definitely possible and quite probably even stronger.

[Rhyfelwyr]

I made that mistake in my Venice campaign. My armies of Italian Spear Militia and Pavise Crossbow Militia might have seemed to do the job for the first 100 turns or so, but when they started to meet armies containing Dismounted Feudal Knights, Armoured Sergeants, any heavy cavalry, Russian armies filled with Dismounted Dvor and Berdiche Axemen, and later the Mongols and Timurids; my armies simply couldn't cope with the higher quality units. You will need a castle for the Feudal Knights and Venetian Heavy Infantry/Archers once your campaign progresses. Also Venetian Heavy Infantry are so cool it would be criminal not to use them. Just not against the Aztecs (their purpose is anti-armour), don't make that mistake like I did.:embarassed:

[Namealreadytaken]

Well you'd miss out on Venetian archers, VHI and such but from a sheer power perspective it's definitely possible and quite probably even stronger.

Does VHI stand for Venetian Heavy Infantry? I thought you could rase it in cities too.
OTOH, Italian cities can get pavise crossbowmen... who are deadly. Are Venetian Archers worth it?

[Gaius Terentius Varro]

Hmm mebbe before 1.3 cos in the unofficial mod CA released to implement the new balance changes (only works with Kingdoms installed), the VHI are nerfed to 7 attack from 16 they had before LOL. The Spear militias are inferior to armoured seargeants too. This makes sense btw.

[joe4iz]

Does VHI stand for Venetian Heavy Infantry? I thought you could rase it in cities too.
OTOH, Italian cities can get pavise crossbowmen... who are deadly. Are Venetian Archers worth it?



Yes to your first question.

The Pavise militia in the towns is OK, but there are time when you will want units that shoot fire arrows. I like them because I can place them behind my line and they do not suffer from any penalty for shoot over the infantry line. Faster fire times also allows them to drain their quiver faster...(gee that doesn't sound right, but oh well.)

[antisocialmunky]

Crossbowmen are nice but I like crossbowmen + archers since crossbowman simply cannot a good volume of fire.

[alpaca]

Hmm mebbe before 1.3 cos in the unofficial mod CA released to implement the new balance changes (only works with Kingdoms installed), the VHI are nerfed to 7 attack from 16 they had before LOL. The Spear militias are inferior to armoured seargeants too. This makes sense btw.
To correct this: With M2TW 1.3 the balance from 1.2 is still in place.

The question of archers vs crossbowmen depends on how you use them. Crossbowmen fire more slowly but have a higher attack and the AP attribute so against highly armoured opponents they're better. Archers on the other hand can fire flaming arrows which have an impact on morale and they apparently have it a bit easier when shooting in an arc. The higher rate of fire also means they'll do more damage against opponents with less armor, like the Mongols and when shooting at large crowds of enemies. Crossbow bolts are more accurate and not affected by rain but can't always shoot down from walls and of course the archers have a much better chance in melee with a better armor, more defense and attack skill. In archer vs archer battles the pavise xbows will usually win because they have the additional shield on their back, are more accurate and more likely to hit because of their stats.
You also have to factor in that crossbowmen often have a hard time skirmishing while the archers often do a decent job.
All in all I wouldn't say it's worth it to get the castles only for them because you probably won't be able to retrain them anyways in this case but if you can also get JHI it makes sense to have a few castles spread about your realm I believe.

[antisocialmunky]

You mean, VHI right? I do that too still sometimes... good ole kill everythingers.

[Gaius Terentius Varro]

To correct this: With M2TW 1.3 the balance from 1.2 is still in place.

The question of archers vs crossbowmen depends on how you use them. Crossbowmen fire more slowly but have a higher attack and the AP attribute so against highly armoured opponents they're better. Archers on the other hand can fire flaming arrows which have an impact on morale and they apparently have it a bit easier when shooting in an arc. The higher rate of fire also means they'll do more damage against opponents with less armor, like the Mongols and when shooting at large crowds of enemies. Crossbow bolts are more accurate and not affected by rain but can't always shoot down from walls and of course the archers have a much better chance in melee with a better armor, more defense and attack skill. In archer vs archer battles the pavise xbows will usually win because they have the additional shield on their back, are more accurate and more likely to hit because of their stats.
You also have to factor in that crossbowmen often have a hard time skirmishing while the archers often do a decent job.
All in all I wouldn't say it's worth it to get the castles only for them because you probably won't be able to retrain them anyways in this case but if you can also get JHI it makes sense to have a few castles spread about your realm I believe.

Ahem I am talking about this of course:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=118680
The fact is that the VHI were bit bugged according to me in 1.0-1.2 : if a one handed hammer did more damage than a 2 handed halberd of the JHI then the logic is off.Just think about that for a second and you'll see the light, probably. They are fixed now in the mod/patch and italian factions suck big time as they will once next patch comes out that brings the Kingdoms balance to MTW2.cheers:smash:

[TevashSzat]

To me, the units are more or less the same, but strategic position is more important.

Milan is the weakest. It is surrounded by all sides and cannot expand easily until it takes everything in Northern Italy which is rarely an easy task unless you get extremely lucky.

Venice is okayish imo. Its unit roster is very nice with VHI, but its strategic position isn't that awesome. Venice is easy to defend, but is surrounded by many potential enemies. Durazzo is underdeveloped and the Byzatines quickly move to secure the area around it. Finally, its island city is okay, but it starts too far from Venice creating some public order issues, but its more of a liability as the AI frequently lands armies on the island which the normal player wont have a large garrison in.

I believe that the Sicilians are in the best position. Palerno can be an incredible force with its relatively high starting population for a castle. Expanding in Italy is easy as you only have to push in one direction. Expanding to the Balkans is easy too as you are within easy stricking distance to it, but doesn't have any city vulnerable within it. Finally, you start out rather excluded meaning you don't have to worry too much about defending your territory early on

[ReiseReise]

#1 Milan. Strength: missiles. You don't need castle because Genoese Xbows come from cities. No must-have castle units IIRC.

#2 Venice. Strength: VHI. Without castles you lose VHI and Archers and end up with a generic Italian army, which is alright but not much fun.

#3 Sicily. Strength: Heavy/Heavy. Playing all cities is criminal. You get a Fortress in about 10 turns, and can then unleash the Normans upon the world. Charge first, ask questions later.

Playing Venice or Sicily all-city you lose all their fun units.

[joe4iz]

#1 Milan. Strength: missiles. You don't need castle because Genoese Xbows come from cities. No must-have castle units IIRC.

#2 Venice. Strength: VHI. Without castles you lose VHI and Archers and end up with a generic Italian army, which is alright but not much fun.

#3 Sicily. Strength: Heavy/Heavy. Playing all cities is criminal. You get a Fortress in about 10 turns, and can then unleash the Normans upon the world. Charge first, ask questions later.

Playing Venice or Sicily all-city you lose all their fun units.
:2thumbsup: Here! Here!

[Magraev]

You can recruit even better genoese x-bows from castles though.

Mounted x-bows can be kinda fun too, you need a castle for those.