Pahlava Expansion Question

[george585]

Hi!
I am playing the latest version of EB (0.81), as Pahlava. I enjoy it quite a lot.
However I am not sure if the implementation of this faction currently is suitable for expansion....
I mean it is very difficult to maintain an empire. I am barely managining to do so with 35 regions. The conecernbs are as follows:
1. Economy overall is below average
2. The buildings that produce happiness (public order) are both expensive (in my case given poor economy) and produce little happiness... I hav not seen many (if at all) that produce more than 5%. When I played Rome this was never a problem! I know that I haven't built advanced buildings to enable other advanced buildings that should presumably give more bonuses, but still in Rome I think there were quite a few buildings that even at their lowest level (shrines for ex.) gave 15% for sure.
3. I think the effects of cultural differences and distance from capitol should be reduced for Pahlava. Especialy given the fact that the region density for the east is much lower than for the west, hence... if you are to maintain same number of regions, they are going to be more spread-out, hence larger distance to capitol, however to make it more balanced, it should be addressd. I doubt it will have any effects on historical accuracy.
As for cultural differences... I think it too is exchadurated for Pahlava. Take for example what I see in Persepolis versus what I would see in one of the Germanic cities I captured when Playing Rome... pretty much the same... in fact in Presepolis case it's even bigger. I understand that Pahlava is half-nomadic, but still I doubt it is more different from Persepolis than Rome is from one of the Germanic cities.
4. I think this one will have to do with the fact that it is still unfinished, but... allmost all cities where Saka was on the very east, all coastal cities on the Persian Gulf and Indian Ocean, and all cities west of Persepolis that I conquered make it impossible to recruit ANY military unit (even loacl) despite appropriate buildings are aleardy built. This makes for another headache of logistical problems, as units (mainlay archers or cheap spearmen) have to be recruited pretty much in my close cities, and transported to those more remote cities to maintain order.
ANyone has any thoughts on this?

[Bootsiuv]

EB doesn't work that way.

Vanilla might have given you higher law and happiness boni, but did Vanilla mines give you +2000 a turn.

Build mines and ports. Disband unnecessary or overly expensive troops (Pahlavan Armored HA's come to mind). Pahlava is a difficult faction. Your economy may never be what it was in vanilla....

As for your questions on recruitment, a Pahlave EB Member will have to answer those.

[Geoffrey S]

I recall it being said that once things are pretty much finalised the team can look to a better balance between factions, in particular with regards to the bonuses granted by various buildings. There's not much point in doing that while there is still plenty of work in progress.

[george585]

I agree. That mines do help, however they cost a fortune! It was not a problem with Rome where economy can surely substantiate it, but it is a problem here. My only real source of income comes from exterminationg populance when I conquer a city... all teh money from cities go towards paying for army, most of which are regulr cheap archers and spearmen that I need to maintain order. I think it is rather imbalanced.
May be the intention was to never allow you to become an empire if you play as Parthia. Then it malkes sense if you never have more than 10-15 cities...
As for horse archers....I do not have that many of them, they are not as expensive, but they are my primary unit. I do not have armoured hourse archers.
As for bonuses, culture, and distance I think they should be offset slightly.
In fact... I often have this situation: a settlement has only 500-600 inhabitants, I have 10 units in it, and still it revolkts... nonsense in my opinion.

[Bootsiuv]

Well, if that is indeed the case, then it sounds like they still need a little work.

That being said, I think I've heard something about a major Pahlava revamp for the next release, including a revamp of the pastoral/nomadic government system....They should be able to recruit regionals in most cities they conquered in real life (assuming there are some available), but I'm unsure if that's the way there set up as of right now....

[george585]

Yes, I hope they adress it in the next release. Otherwise it's a great faction - heavy cavalry and horse archers - on of my favorite combinations!

[Thaatu]

You should expand a bit slower and give some time for newly conquered settlements to blend in with your culture. The best way to do this is by building your own palace, which requires that the settlement must grow in size. That seems to bite out quite a piece from cultural penalty. After you have pacified a settlement, then it's time to start looking for the next target. It's much cheaper to have only one flashpoint in your empire rather than several ones.

Anyway, Bootsiuv is right, the whole Pahlavi governmental system will be turned upside down once the next version arrives. There's a July preview somewhere which tells the story in a more detailed manner.

[george585]

I agree with you on that. the problem was that I needed to destroy Baktria and Saka soon to get rid of them... but then Grey death kept coming and coming... so I figured I better start acting. I guess I was a bit too fast.
Hmm - didn't know about a palace - that's news! But then there's distance to capitol. And unrest! This is strange - it seems to originate from nowhere quite often!

[Thaatu]

The thing with RTW, at least in VH difficulty, is that there's always someone coming at you, and if you wipe him out, your new neighbour will be the next in line. In two Pahlavi campaigns I waited for about 80 turns before I took my first settlement. Granted it was a bit hard in the first one, as the Pahlavi capital that supposedly had mines gave no mining income... My income for the first 20 turns or so was below 200 mnai, with no troops other than my family members. Couldn't adopt any more FM's or I my budget would have frozen. But as my two settlements slowly grew in size, my budget balanced. Much easier the second time when the Nisa mine bug was fixed.

About unrest, the best way to battle that is with law bonuses. Construct buildings that give them, and also use governers who are at least loyal and preferably sharp. That combination might give out law related traits. If you're still keeping Nisa as your capital, change it. Parthian empire had quite a few capitals in its existance.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

Hi!
I am playing the latest version of EB (0.81), as Pahlava. I enjoy it quite a lot.
However I am not sure if the implementation of this faction currently is suitable for expansion....
I mean it is very difficult to maintain an empire. I am barely managining to do so with 35 regions. The conecernbs are as follows:
1. Economy overall is below average
2. The buildings that produce happiness (public order) are both expensive (in my case given poor economy) and produce little happiness... I hav not seen many (if at all) that produce more than 5%. When I played Rome this was never a problem! I know that I haven't built advanced buildings to enable other advanced buildings that should presumably give more bonuses, but still in Rome I think there were quite a few buildings that even at their lowest level (shrines for ex.) gave 15% for sure.
3. I think the effects of cultural differences and distance from capitol should be reduced for Pahlava. Especialy given the fact that the region density for the east is much lower than for the west, hence... if you are to maintain same number of regions, they are going to be more spread-out, hence larger distance to capitol, however to make it more balanced, it should be addressd. I doubt it will have any effects on historical accuracy.
As for cultural differences... I think it too is exchadurated for Pahlava. Take for example what I see in Persepolis versus what I would see in one of the Germanic cities I captured when Playing Rome... pretty much the same... in fact in Presepolis case it's even bigger. I understand that Pahlava is half-nomadic, but still I doubt it is more different from Persepolis than Rome is from one of the Germanic cities.
4. I think this one will have to do with the fact that it is still unfinished, but... allmost all cities where Saka was on the very east, all coastal cities on the Persian Gulf and Indian Ocean, and all cities west of Persepolis that I conquered make it impossible to recruit ANY military unit (even loacl) despite appropriate buildings are aleardy built. This makes for another headache of logistical problems, as units (mainlay archers or cheap spearmen) have to be recruited pretty much in my close cities, and transported to those more remote cities to maintain order.
ANyone has any thoughts on this?
1- Many factions start out with a bad economy. Build mines and make trade agreements.
2- I don't think anyone gets a first level building with 15% on it. Pahlav get a lot of random buildings that other factions do not that give small amounts of happiness & law rather than a couple with lots. Build things like hunting grounds and Persian Gardens. And remember law > happiness, so build garrisons.
3- Both distance from capital and cultural penalties are hardcoded in RTW. :wall:
4- Pahlav shouldn't have a recruitment hole anywhere nearby. (Remember, you can't use Seleucid MICs.) They should at least get Parthian Spearmen and Persian Archers. Some regions need regional MICs and some need factional MICs, as one or the other is empty.

Yes, Pahlav has been redone for the next release. Completely reorganized and unique.

[LordCurlyton]

Well if you fix the Nisa mining bonus problem the economy problems of the Pahlava disappear. I've been playing them for a while and the only reason I disn't have a massive;y strong economy for a long while was the fact that a lot of what you originally will take just isn't as rich/abundant as what you take later. Once you've finally made your way into the Baktrian hinterlands and the Med side of the AS your economy really starts to jump with joy. Start progressing into Asia Minor and you'll be swimming in mnai. And learn to love their basic units. I waited a long time before I built my first real armored HA's and Catas. Also, build up regional MICS to the first couple levels as most places will give you some sort of cheap, big infantry unit. And almost everywhere will yield Pantodopai Phalangitai, which is better than any factional infantry you can get. I lurves my pikes and HAs.

[george585]

1- Many factions start out with a bad economy. Build mines and make trade agreements.
2- I don't think anyone gets a first level building with 15% on it. Pahlav get a lot of random buildings that other factions do not that give small amounts of happiness & law rather than a couple with lots. Build things like hunting grounds and Persian Gardens. And remember law > happiness, so build garrisons.
3- Both distance from capital and cultural penalties are hardcoded in RTW. :wall:
4- Pahlav shouldn't have a recruitment hole anywhere nearby. (Remember, you can't use Seleucid MICs.) They should at least get Parthian Spearmen and Persian Archers. Some regions need regional MICs and some need factional MICs, as one or the other is empty.

Yes, Pahlav has been redone for the next release. Completely reorganized and unique.

Thank you for a solid explanation and suggestions. It was a surprise for me to hear that distance and culture are gardcoded... I thought they could be tweaked on a per faction or per city basis.
Well for some reason I do not get ANY units in MANY cities... Seleukeia, Persepolis, Edessa, etc. I would love to have persian archers.... but there are none. Of course I don;t expect to be able to recruit parthian horse archers in all my cities.

[george585]

Well if you fix the Nisa mining bonus problem the economy problems of the Pahlava disappear. I've been playing them for a while and the only reason I disn't have a massive;y strong economy for a long while was the fact that a lot of what you originally will take just isn't as rich/abundant as what you take later. Once you've finally made your way into the Baktrian hinterlands and the Med side of the AS your economy really starts to jump with joy. Start progressing into Asia Minor and you'll be swimming in mnai. And learn to love their basic units. I waited a long time before I built my first real armored HA's and Catas. Also, build up regional MICS to the first couple levels as most places will give you some sort of cheap, big infantry unit. And almost everywhere will yield Pantodopai Phalangitai, which is better than any factional infantry you can get. I lurves my pikes and HAs.

Interesting suggestion. I control all of Baktria and Saka... and when I took their cities I did not see any significant jump in mnai. I did get probably around 40000-50000 by takeing their cities, but this sum pretty much dissapeared as I built my gov-ts there in place of theirs... and I had to get some persian archers garrisoned in cities too, so that pretty much ate all money - initial bonus and the amount they generate every turn.

As for Asia Minor.... I haven't got there yet... I am stuck at Edessa... But it's hard to maintain order in Seleukeia and Persepolis.... I imagine Asia Minor would be hell then... distance to capitol and culture penalties would be huge.

As for unit recruitement .... I guess I misunderstand something.... But I really cannot recruit any units starting west, south and east of Nisa. The two cities on the very east don;t have anyone to recruit either. Much of Seleucid Empire does not offer anyone to recruit either...

Can you please perhaps give an example of a precise recruitment building I should build in say Seleukeia or Persepolis to be able to recruit at least some basic archers?

Thanks.

[george585]

The thing with RTW, at least in VH difficulty, is that there's always someone coming at you, and if you wipe him out, your new neighbour will be the next in line. In two Pahlavi campaigns I waited for about 80 turns before I took my first settlement. Granted it was a bit hard in the first one, as the Pahlavi capital that supposedly had mines gave no mining income... My income for the first 20 turns or so was below 200 mnai, with no troops other than my family members. Couldn't adopt any more FM's or I my budget would have frozen. But as my two settlements slowly grew in size, my budget balanced. Much easier the second time when the Nisa mine bug was fixed.

About unrest, the best way to battle that is with law bonuses. Construct buildings that give them, and also use governers who are at least loyal and preferably sharp. That combination might give out law related traits. If you're still keeping Nisa as your capital, change it. Parthian empire had quite a few capitals in its existance.

Thanks for suggestions. I guess you might consider me a beginner... but I always played on M/M. I just don;t like the idea being at war with everyone....and it's not too realistic either.

Wow... I too waited quite a bit before taking my first settlement but it wasn't that long. I guess the mines bug was fixed when I played it.

Hmm I assume when it says "10% public order bonuses due to law" and "10% public order bonus due to happiness" they are equal? Aren't they?

Changing capital.... yes, probably I will, but as of now Nisa is indeed the center of my empire. The easternmost town of mine is as far away from Nisa as is westernmost. So I don;t think I should change it now...

[kambiz]

I think george585 is right about the difference between western settlements and eastern settlements which are bigger than western ones ,Thus eastern (Especially Saka ,Saroumate ,Bakteria and offcourse Pahlava) have struggle with "Distance to capital"

Both distance from capital and cultural penalties are hardcoded in RTW. Yes but there's still a solution. You can increase the amount of Public order each of related buildings can produce. For example ,each shrines can produce 10% public order instead of common 5% each ! (Or at least the first building can have higher amount of public order). Is it not possible to modify?

@Thaatu
Imho Blitzkrieg is the best strategy for Pahlava ("Ashkanian"). I did use this strategy with success in my Pahlava campaign (In EB 0.80)

[bovi]

Law affects corruption and chance of catching spies as well. Law > happiness.
Buildings' effects are easy to change. Search out the buildings in question in export_descr_buildings.txt.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

You should be able to recruit units in Persepolis as Pahlav. When you conquer it, tear down the exsisting governments and barracks and build up your own. There should be units immediately available in the first level of barracks.

Look at these maps, if there is a Pahlav symbol in the bottom right, you'll be able to get that unit in the green provinces:

COMPLETE EASTERN AND STEPPE:


https://img409.imageshack.us/img409/5079/e01id6.jpg
https://img409.imageshack.us/img409/580/e02xn3.jpg
https://img294.imageshack.us/img294/5663/e03nx9.jpg
https://img294.imageshack.us/img294/7918/e04tp7.jpg
https://img294.imageshack.us/img294/2316/e05lv6.jpg
https://img406.imageshack.us/img406/3197/e06oa9.jpg
https://img407.imageshack.us/img407/7082/e07hg5.jpg



'Distance from capital' penalties are moddable in M2TW, but not in RTW. As are 'squaller' pentalties. There aren't any cultural penalties in M2TW, though.

You can increase the amount of bonuses on buldings, but that doesn't really solve the 'distance to capital' or 'culture' problems. It would just scale up the public order everywhere.

[LordCurlyton]

Interesting suggestion. I control all of Baktria and Saka... and when I took their cities I did not see any significant jump in mnai. I did get probably around 40000-50000 by takeing their cities, but this sum pretty much dissapeared as I built my gov-ts there in place of theirs... and I had to get some persian archers garrisoned in cities too, so that pretty much ate all money - initial bonus and the amount they generate every turn.

As for Asia Minor.... I haven't got there yet... I am stuck at Edessa... But it's hard to maintain order in Seleukeia and Persepolis.... I imagine Asia Minor would be hell then... distance to capitol and culture penalties would be huge.

As for unit recruitement .... I guess I misunderstand something.... But I really cannot recruit any units starting west, south and east of Nisa. The two cities on the very east don;t have anyone to recruit either. Much of Seleucid Empire does not offer anyone to recruit either...

Can you please perhaps give an example of a precise recruitment building I should build in say Seleukeia or Persepolis to be able to recruit at least some basic archers?

Thanks.
Really? Build regional MIC 2 ANYWHERE in Seleukid lands and you will get Pantodopai and Pantodopai Phalangitai. Head to Syria and Mesopotamia and you can get up to Theurophoroi in regional MIC 4 (needs Type III/IV Gov).
In Seleukia you can get Shipri Tukul in a Faction MIC 4 (Type II Gov) as a pretty decent heavy infantry, though they are only recruited their as far as I can tell. You get a nice selection of basic greek units from the regional MIC you can build there, including the phalangitai. However, building Factional MIC 1 in almost any of my provinces (India and steppes excepted) yields the Eastern Slingers, Artish Pada, and Thanvare Paydag, which is your basic archer unit. Factional MIC 2 will give the basic Pahlava Shivatir in a VAST area, though the Med coast, India, and some of the Saka lands. Basically, in my game, the HA's peter out once you start going into Asia Minor and other areas that typically were extremely Greek influenced (or so I would guess by all those free poleis that would revolt to KH, plus the beginning presence of AS and Ptolies).
In Persepolis you get the full arsenal of Pahlava might from the Factional MICS; I know I can crank out Catas there. Plus the L2 Regional MIC that you get with a Type I gov also yields the phalangites.
In the far east province (by which I assume you mean India), you build Regional MICs. At L4 you have access to Indian Spearmen, Indo-Hellenic Peltasts, and Armored Elephants. A Factional L2 MIC yields the Indian Longbowmen. If you mean the territory(-ies) just north of India I think those may be recruitment holes as I have had no luck yet.
In the steppe you can generally get good access to HA's of various stripes by making sure you build the Migration before installing a government, and then building Nomadism. That way you can get all those spiffy armored HAs, of which the Daha seem to be the best.
As far as distance penalties go, they are capped (at 80% I believe) so once you get to 80% it won't get worse. And culture is 50% max. As long as you expand slowly and bring good influence/trait generals to the fore, you should have no problem. Though, in the spirit of the mobility of the Pahlav "capital", you might want to just switch your capital to Seleukia once you take it. Your eastern provinces will be very easy to keep happy, even with the new distance penalty, and all those pesky Meso and Asia Minor territories suddenly get MUCH happier with the removal of a large chunk of the distance penalty. Freed up roughly 2-3 stacks of garrison troops when I finally did the switch; saved me a nice chunk of income right there.
Depending on how quickly you captured Baktrian and Saka lands will determine how well-built their mines are. Besides, checking the Trade tab shows the mine income clearly, and it does make a big difference. If you captured them quickly, build up, and make sure you build the second mine level. That increases mine income by a factor of 2.5 so it is well worth it.

[george585]

You should be able to recruit units in Persepolis as Pahlav. When you conquer it, tear down the exsisting governments and barracks and build up your own. There should be units immediately available in the first level of barracks.

Look at these maps, if there is a Pahlav symbol in the bottom right, you'll be able to get that unit in the green provinces:



'Distance from capital' penalties are moddable in M2TW, but not in RTW. As are 'squaller' pentalties. There aren't any cultural penalties in M2TW, though.

You can increase the amount of bonuses on buldings, but that doesn't really solve the 'distance to capital' or 'culture' problems. It would just scale up the public order everywhere.

Oh I didn;t know I am suupposed to tear down barracks too. I used to tear down only gov-t buildings and then build my own. I will try that.

Thanks for the maps!

You are right about bonuses to counterweigh distance to capital and culture penalties. I guess I will have to wait for EB 2 on that :)

[george585]

Really? Build regional MIC 2 ANYWHERE in Seleukid lands and you will get Pantodopai and Pantodopai Phalangitai. Head to Syria and Mesopotamia and you can get up to Theurophoroi in regional MIC 4 (needs Type III/IV Gov).
The problem is I dont have the money and quite frequently the time to build all those barracks. I am forced to recruit very few mercenaries (I cannot afford more) to compensate for complete lack of infantry on the west (the backbone of my army are horse archers and cataphract bodyguards).



In Seleukia you can get Shipri Tukul in a Faction MIC 4 (Type II Gov) as a pretty decent heavy infantry, though they are only recruited their as far as I can tell. You get a nice selection of basic greek units from the regional MIC you can build there, including the phalangitai. However, building Factional MIC 1 in almost any of my provinces (India and steppes excepted) yields the Eastern Slingers, Artish Pada, and Thanvare Paydag, which is your basic archer unit.

I just need the money to build all that. For 35 cities I am gettimng only 25000 per turn which is enough to build only one very cheap building per turn... I am not even talking about recruitemnt and building barracks...



Factional MIC 2 will give the basic Pahlava Shivatir in a VAST area, though the Med coast, India, and some of the Saka lands. Basically, in my game, the HA's peter out once you start going into Asia Minor and other areas that typically were extremely Greek influenced (or so I would guess by all those free poleis that would revolt to KH, plus the beginning presence of AS and Ptolies).

LOL. I can only recruit mine in my original 2 starting cities, on one Baktrian city, and in one Saka/Steppe city on the very north :) But that's enough for me (I cannot afford to have many of them anyways)... It's just logistical nightmare to have lots of tiny armies made of one unit being moved from east to west...



In Persepolis you get the full arsenal of Pahlava might from the Factional MICS; I know I can crank out Catas there. Plus the L2 Regional MIC that you get with a Type I gov also yields the phalangites.
In the far east province (by which I assume you mean India), you build Regional MICs. At L4 you have access to Indian Spearmen, Indo-Hellenic Peltasts, and Armored Elephants. A Factional L2 MIC yields the Indian Longbowmen. If you mean the territory(-ies) just north of India I think those may be recruitment holes as I have had no luck yet.
In the steppe you can generally get good access to HA's of various stripes by making sure you build the Migration before installing a government, and then building Nomadism. That way you can get all those spiffy armored HAs, of which the Daha seem to be the best.

I guess I will have to find a way to make more money....
Hmm as for the northern steppee cities... I usually build regional pacification and then my gov-t type. Is this what you meant by Migration?



As far as distance penalties go, they are capped (at 80% I believe) so once you get to 80% it won't get worse. And culture is 50% max. As long as you expand slowly and bring good influence/trait generals to the fore, you should have no problem.

I don't have nearly as many generals, let alone I need some in my army and not as mere governors...



Though, in the spirit of the mobility of the Pahlav "capital", you might want to just switch your capital to Seleukia once you take it. Your eastern provinces will be very easy to keep happy, even with the new distance penalty, and all those pesky Meso and Asia Minor territories suddenly get MUCH happier with the removal of a large chunk of the distance penalty. Freed up roughly 2-3 stacks of garrison troops when I finally did the switch; saved me a nice chunk of income right there.

I have no idea how you managed to keep east provinces happy. I didn;'t even take 3 provinces in India, but even now Saka capital for example has 10 units garrisoned, small population, and with my capital at Nisa still they are at 75% happiness on low tax rate! Surely they and at least 10 cities in the east would rebel once I make sitch to Seleukeia. Even Perspolis would be damaging in that respect.



Depending on how quickly you captured Baktrian and Saka lands will determine how well-built their mines are. Besides, checking the Trade tab shows the mine income clearly, and it does make a big difference. If you captured them quickly, build up, and make sure you build the second mine level. That increases mine income by a factor of 2.5 so it is well worth it.
I captured quite quickly - because Baktria declared war on my pretty early, and I decided to take Baktria and Saka out while they were small.
I see. I guess I will need to do it very slowly....

Thank you for your suggestions though!

[Thaatu]

Have you considered just leaving those steppe regions and letting them rebel? Those settlements are very poor and if they give you nothing but trouble you might want to get rid of them.

Also, +80% to public order is the highest bonus you can get out of garrisoned units. So if you have a settlement which has low population and a huge garrison, reduce the garrison a unit at a time and check the "settlement details" scroll. When the garrison bonus drops below +80%, you'll know the maximum effective garrison size. If you have five settlements that each have three useless garrison units with the upkeep of 200, by disbanding those 15 units you'll get 3000 mnai more per turn. Now imagine you have ten settlements that each have three useless units with the upkeep of 300... Easy money, just requires a little management.

And about law buildings, corruption in your empire must run rampant. As bovi said, law bonuses reduce corruption, so that a bigger percentage of the settlement's income goes to your pocket.


@Thaatu
Imho Blitzkrieg is the best strategy for Pahlava ("Ashkanian"). I did use this strategy with success in my Pahlava campaign (In EB 0.80)
Yes it is. It's requires some nerve to defend the two settlements against Saka, Bactria and Seleucids with only a handful of troops, but I like to recreate historical expansion. It may be hard, but not impossible.

[LordCurlyton]

The problem is I dont have the money and quite frequently the time to build all those barracks. I am forced to recruit very few mercenaries (I cannot afford more) to compensate for complete lack of infantry on the west (the backbone of my army are horse archers and cataphract bodyguards).
I don't recruit mercenaries unless in dire straits and then I dispose of them as swiftly as possible. Again, I don't know how you could possibly lack for infantry the west, unless by west you mean west of your starting location, which is steppe-land and thus naturally devoid of infantry for the Pahlava to recruit. And until I finally started making good cash my primary army was mostly HAs plus a general or two, and one or two armored HA's (Dehbed Asavara or such; the mid-level HAs), with a small core of greek pantodopai phalangites.



I just need the money to build all that. For 35 cities I am gettimng only 25000 per turn which is enough to build only one very cheap building per turn... I am not even talking about recruitemnt and building barracks...
25k per turn from 35 territories isn't TERRIBLY bad, but you probably have an excess of troops somewhere which could be reallocated to a war front. Just how are you spending that 25k per turn? Level 1 MIC only costs 300 Mnai, and Level 2 is 3000. So to get L2 Region and Faction MIC you need 6600 MNai total and....9 turns I believe. So 733 Mnai "saved" per turn is needed, which is hardly much at all, roughly 3% of toal income per turn.
Just for note I was probably only to 35-40k per turn by 35 territories, and if you check the 0.8x Faction Progression thread you'll see my larger Pahalv empire which pulls in roughly twice that, mainly from its new acquisitions.



LOL. I can only recruit mine in my original 2 starting cities, on one Baktrian city, and in one Saka/Steppe city on the very north :) But that's enough for me (I cannot afford to have many of them anyways)... It's just logistical nightmare to have lots of tiny armies made of one unit being moved from east to west...
I would imagine so. Thankfully I have no need to suffer through that.



I guess I will have to find a way to make more money....
Hmm as for the northern steppee cities... I usually build regional pacification and then my gov-t type. Is this what you meant by Migration?
Well the steppe cities should already have a Nomadism/Pastoralism building in place. With the Pahlava as is, when you conquer a place, you destroy the existing gov/barracks (unless you can use the barracks...hahaha Haikakan!!!) and then you get to build Regional Pacification plus you should be able to build a Migration, much like true nomad factions. Then, as long as you DON'T build a normal government (Type I-IV), you can build Nomadism or Pastoralism, and usually only one of those, as the Pahlava are not true nomads in the game. Not only is it a swank 5% happiness bonus but, if you build Nomadism on the steppes, or conquer a place that already has Nomadism in place, you get to recruit spiffy HAs and armored HAs by building up the Clan Chief's Camp line, which is significantly cheaper than standard barracks. The problem is that the Saka lands are pretty barren as far as Pahlav recruitment goes, the best I've seen is the basic HA, and that is not everywhere that is Saka.



I don't have nearly as many generals, let alone I need some in my army and not as mere governors...
35 provinces should mean you have roughly 25-40 grown generals, no? Surely you don't need all of them in the army. In fact, a lot of the Pahlav ethnicities are well suited to governing and their education system pops out some pretty good ancillaries and traits, especially when you can afford to go beyond the basic school. That is also the secret to keeping those core provinces happy after moving the capital: its generally very easy for even my less-than-inspiring FMs to at least get unrest-reducing traits, even if they all don't get 10 influence (though a nice number will). Most of my hinterland is one or two units plus a FM, and it works even in India.



I have no idea how you managed to keep east provinces happy. I didn;'t even take 3 provinces in India, but even now Saka capital for example has 10 units garrisoned, small population, and with my capital at Nisa still they are at 75% happiness on low tax rate! Surely they and at least 10 cities in the east would rebel once I make sitch to Seleukeia. Even Perspolis would be damaging in that respect.
Culture penalties, my friend. You just need to build lots of Pahlav stuff to reduce that. And, as mentioned, culture is capped at 50% penalty, distance at 80%. Squalor shouldn't be a problem in steppe cities unless they are thoroughly Pahlav by that point (and rather large). And you only need a few troops to keep small pop steppe settlements at 80% garrison bonus. So if you have more than that, just move the extras out and relocate them somewhere useful. Also, if you wait for a while to expand you'll find that a lot of those eastern provinces not owned by AS are built up with your culture already, custom-made for easy governance. And if you keep an active and large spy network going you can keep the AS from reasonably building up its cities. I even managed to keep Persepolis from becoming Huge before I took it when it rebelled for the umpteenth time, which made life easy for me there. In fact, I don't think any Seleukid province east of Seleukia (which I managed to make rebel a couple times but couldn't snatch for myself then) managed to become too thoroughly Greek that I had issues with it.



I captured quite quickly - because Baktria declared war on my pretty early, and I decided to take Baktria and Saka out while they were small.
I see. I guess I will need to do it very slowly....
Well there ya go. just need to build those mines then.



Thank you for your suggestions though!
Always a pleasure to help :-)

[george585]

I don't recruit mercenaries unless in dire straits and then I dispose of them as swiftly as possible. Again, I don't know how you could possibly lack for infantry the west, unless by west you mean west of your starting location, which is steppe-land and thus naturally devoid of infantry for the Pahlava to recruit. And until I finally started making good cash my primary army was mostly HAs plus a general or two, and one or two armored HA's (Dehbed Asavara or such; the mid-level HAs), with a small core of greek pantodopai phalangites.
I actually meant the region between my starting position and Anatolia... But now, like you sugested I managed to destroy their barracks-related building, built local conscription, and now at least I can recruit basic archers.
My army too is just HAs and General.



25k per turn from 35 territories isn't TERRIBLY bad, but you probably have an excess of troops somewhere which could be reallocated to a war front. Just how are you spending that 25k per turn? Level 1 MIC only costs 300 Mnai, and Level 2 is 3000. So to get L2 Region and Faction MIC you need 6600 MNai total and....9 turns I believe. So 733 Mnai "saved" per turn is needed, which is hardly much at all, roughly 3% of toal income per turn.
Just for note I was probably only to 35-40k per turn by 35 territories, and if you check the 0.8x Faction Progression thread you'll see my larger Pahalv empire which pulls in roughly twice that, mainly from its new acquisitions.

Surprisingly now for some reason after about 20 turns or so, situation inmproved, and now it is double that 50000. Butb this is still nowehere near what you need for massive construction in all cities. I get about 4000-5000 of profit now. Hmm.. I guess I was confusing different MICs... for quite some time I was under impression that you need to build several levels of those to build any troops. I guess I was wrong now that I discovered you should destroy former barracks.



Well the steppe cities should already have a Nomadism/Pastoralism building in place. With the Pahlava as is, when you conquer a place, you destroy the existing gov/barracks (unless you can use the barracks...hahaha Haikakan!!!) and then you get to build Regional Pacification plus you should be able to build a Migration, much like true nomad factions. Then, as long as you DON'T build a normal government (Type I-IV), you can build Nomadism or Pastoralism, and usually only one of those, as the Pahlava are not true nomads in the game. Not only is it a swank 5% happiness bonus but, if you build Nomadism on the steppes, or conquer a place that already has Nomadism in place, you get to recruit spiffy HAs and armored HAs by building up the Clan Chief's Camp line, which is significantly cheaper than standard barracks. The problem is that the Saka lands are pretty barren as far as Pahlav recruitment goes, the best I've seen is the basic HA, and that is not everywhere that is Saka.

Hmmm. So from what you are saying I figure I made a mistake of Building Gov-t III there. So you are suggesting I would be better off if I destroy it and build nomadism/pastoralism if it is not there and if it is a steppee city?



35 provinces should mean you have roughly 25-40 grown generals, no? Surely you don't need all of them in the army. In fact, a lot of the Pahlav ethnicities are well suited to governing and their education system pops out some pretty good ancillaries and traits, especially when you can afford to go beyond the basic school. That is also the secret to keeping those core provinces happy after moving the capital: its generally very easy for even my less-than-inspiring FMs to at least get unrest-reducing traits, even if they all don't get 10 influence (though a nice number will). Most of my hinterland is one or two units plus a FM, and it works even in India.

LOL. I am pretty sure (but I didn't count them yet) I have less than 25 for my current 34 regions. I would say I have around 16-20. Twise as little.
And somehow my generals (at least those who didn't stay in cities for long) actually get unrest-INCREASING traits. And most of my generals (both family, and adoptees) have only one or two good primary trairts... It is extreemly rare for me to have one that is Sharp, Charismatic, Vigorous. And even in that case they would certainly not all 3 other good personality traits. But I guess it makes game more realistic so it's not really a complaint here at all.



Culture penalties, my friend. You just need to build lots of Pahlav stuff to reduce that. And, as mentioned, culture is capped at 50% penalty, distance at 80%. Squalor shouldn't be a problem in steppe cities unless they are thoroughly Pahlav by that point (and rather large). And you only need a few troops to keep small pop steppe settlements at 80% garrison bonus.

Well actually two of my steppee cities on the far north are rather small, yet I am close to having 10 units in them... and archers (not cavalry), yet I did not reach 80% limit there.



So if you have more than that, just move the extras out and relocate them somewhere useful. Also, if you wait for a while to expand you'll find that a lot of those eastern provinces not owned by AS are built up with your culture already, custom-made for easy governance. And if you keep an active and large spy network going you can keep the AS from reasonably building up its cities. I even managed to keep Persepolis from becoming Huge before I took it when it rebelled for the umpteenth time, which made life easy for me there. In fact, I don't think any Seleukid province east of Seleukia (which I managed to make rebel a couple times but couldn't snatch for myself then) managed to become too thoroughly Greek that I had issues with it.

Well I some cities my strategy now is move nearly all troops out, let it revolt, and then recapture it exterminating the populance - it would be more effcient than keeping troops there (that do not do much, as order is till below 70%, but in addition they get hurt)



Well there ya go. just need to build those mines then.

That's what I started doing :)

I guess the newest thing in all of this for me was that I need to destroy barracks before building my own.... Not only does it let you recruit your troops, but you also get some money. In fact it allowed me to start building campaign in most of my cities, as I got something close to 80000 for free there.

[Sarkiss]

I guess the newest thing in all of this for me was that I need to destroy barracks before building my own.... Not only does it let you recruit your troops, but you also get some money.
building descriptions are there to help:laugh4:

[LordCurlyton]

Surprisingly now for some reason after about 20 turns or so, situation inmproved, and now it is double that 50000. Butb this is still nowehere near what you need for massive construction in all cities. I get about 4000-5000 of profit now. Hmm.. I guess I was confusing different MICs... for quite some time I was under impression that you need to build several levels of those to build any troops. I guess I was wrong now that I discovered you should destroy former barracks.
Oh you meant your total income was only 25K.....I thought you meant your income after maintenance et al (your profit) was at 25K....



Hmmm. So from what you are saying I figure I made a mistake of Building Gov-t III there. So you are suggesting I would be better off if I destroy it and build nomadism/pastoralism if it is not there and if it is a steppee city?
Well the steppe places prolly already had nomadism in place, check their buildings. If for some reason they had Pastoralism destroy it, build Migration as long as you don't have a classic gov in place, and build Nomadism. Note that the Saka lands (Gava-Saka eastwards) are pretty barren, usually yielding only Pahlava Shivatir, with Chingu being barren I believe. Pushing into Sauromatae lands is a much better bet as you get all sorts of pretty HAs.


LOL. I am pretty sure (but I didn't count them yet) I have less than 25 for my current 34 regions. I would say I have around 16-20. Twise as little.
And somehow my generals (at least those who didn't stay in cities for long) actually get unrest-INCREASING traits. And most of my generals (both family, and adoptees) have only one or two good primary trairts... It is extreemly rare for me to have one that is Sharp, Charismatic, Vigorous. And even in that case they would certainly not all 3 other good personality traits. But I guess it makes game more realistic so it's not really a complaint here at all.
Yes you will get some stinkers but those people can usually become fair field marshals. Just bring a better governing general along to stay behind in a new conquest and only conquer two or three at a time. Shoot for Smart and Charismatic if you can get 2 of 3. Also, go for the Zand or Mad ethnicities, as they seem to be the best governors, especially the Mad. Avoid Persians, they're generally xenophobic bastards. It took me almost 300 turns before a suitable Persian presented himself. The rest had been rabid xenophobes who were patently unsuitable due to traits they already had.


Well actually two of my steppee cities on the far north are rather small, yet I am close to having 10 units in them... and archers (not cavalry), yet I did not reach 80% limit there.
Just how small? A little place of 1-2000 only needs about 200 men to keep 80% garrison bonus. Its only when you start approaching Large City size that you start needing large blocks of troops.


Well I some cities my strategy now is move nearly all troops out, let it revolt, and then recapture it exterminating the populance - it would be more effcient than keeping troops there (that do not do much, as order is till below 70%, but in addition they get hurt)
Do you have spies in them? Perhaps they have a resident foreign spy...Also, some of the most eastern of Seleukid lands have a built-in unrest value, which makes them hard to control for anyone. But even then, once you get rid of the culture penalty you don't need more then 5-7 units of infantry usually to keep them happy. I'm guessing you still have a lot of culture penalty though, no?


I guess the newest thing in all of this for me was that I need to destroy barracks before building my own.... Not only does it let you recruit your troops, but you also get some money. In fact it allowed me to start building campaign in most of my cities, as I got something close to 80000 for free there.
Woot!

[george585]

Oh you meant your total income was only 25K.....I thought you meant your income after maintenance et al (your profit) was at 25K....

LOL, No, no - I meant TOTAL. If that was my profit, I would consider myself to be rich! :) I mean when I played rome and had 110+ regions my profits were only 2-2.5 times that... so 25K profit is a lot.




Well the steppe places prolly already had nomadism in place, check their buildings. If for some reason they had Pastoralism destroy it, build Migration as long as you don't have a classic gov in place, and build Nomadism. Note that the Saka lands (Gava-Saka eastwards) are pretty barren, usually yielding only Pahlava Shivatir, with Chingu being barren I believe. Pushing into Sauromatae lands is a much better bet as you get all sorts of pretty HAs.


Well actually my steppe cities have Nomadism, no pastoralism, and have my gov-t types (usually type 2 or type 3). So I guess I have to destroy my gov-ts and build migration?



Yes you will get some stinkers but those people can usually become fair field marshals. Just bring a better governing general along to stay behind in a new conquest and only conquer two or three at a time. Shoot for Smart and Charismatic if you can get 2 of 3. Also, go for the Zand or Mad ethnicities, as they seem to be the best governors, especially the Mad. Avoid Persians, they're generally xenophobic bastards. It took me almost 300 turns before a suitable Persian presented himself. The rest had been rabid xenophobes who were patently unsuitable due to traits they already had.


I nearly always chose Vigorous and Shard over Charismatic.... Probably because I want my generals getting command stars and forgetting about governing aspect. I will try to pay more attention to charisma.



Just how small? A little place of 1-2000 only needs about 200 men to keep 80% garrison bonus. Its only when you start approaching Large City size that you start needing large blocks of troops.


LOL. 200 is rather large - well not large but certainly mid-size garrison for me. May be that's because I play on small unit scale.... (I have GF 7900GT). Besides 1 soldier for 10 citizens, or in real life rather 1 for 9 (if you count the soldiers).... is rather too much soldiers to sustain order... don't you think? and on a side note... it seems a bit strange how simply CA has implemented garrison bonus. You get much bigger bonus for cheap peasants (or equivalents) than for elite infantry just because usually the later are less numerous... not too realistic.



Do you have spies in them? Perhaps they have a resident foreign spy...Also, some of the most eastern of Seleukid lands have a built-in unrest value, which makes them hard to control for anyone. But even then, once you get rid of the culture penalty you don't need more then 5-7 units of infantry usually to keep them happy. I'm guessing you still have a lot of culture penalty though, no?
Woot!
May be... I noticed that whenever spy enters my city, order drops. But I have no idea if it's just a one time drop, or it accumulates evry turn.... Nor I am sure how to get rid of enemy spies.... Assasins? But in RTW I never built those... only in M2TW.. to assasinate hostile pope and plays my own.

I am close to having 7 units in most problematic cities, and even at low tax rate and 7 units only my influential governer saves me from public order dropping below 75%. But then I did not build that many culture buildings in there yet. Someone mentioned building my own palaces... but it's not always an option.. as you cannot destroy existing palaces and need to wait for city pop to grow.... which may be rather difficult if they rebel and every turn pop. is killed.

[Tristuskhan]

Well actually my steppe cities have Nomadism, no pastoralism, and have my gov-t types (usually type 2 or type 3). So I guess I have to destroy my gov-ts and build migration?


Actually not, I had the same issue in Gava Maszakata in my Pahlavi campaign (217bc), a city I held for very long before losing it to the Sakae and taking it back... I could just train Dahae skirmishers and Pahlava Shirhvatir. But now I can train dahae horse archers and soon alan nobles and Dahae nobles too.... Odd stuff, indeed...

You did not tell us the year you reached in your campaign.... I go slow pace, pacify slowly and have no major unrest problems.

[george585]

Actually not, I had the same issue in Gava Maszakata in my Pahlavi campaign (217bc), a city I held for very long before losing it to the Sakae and taking it back... I could just train Dahae skirmishers and Pahlava Shirhvatir. But now I can train dahae horse archers and soon alan nobles and Dahae nobles too.... Odd stuff, indeed...

You did not tell us the year you reached in your campaign.... I go slow pace, pacify slowly and have no major unrest problems.

Oh, well one of those was taken from Saka, the other from Euletheroi. But the situation is the same in both... only basic HAs. The ytear I reached 35 settlements wasa around 230 BC.

[Tristuskhan]

Oh, well one of those was taken from Saka, the other from Euletheroi. But the situation is the same in both... only basic HAs. The ytear I reached 35 settlements wasa around 230 BC.

:beam: You grew up too fast and now you're stuck in underdeveloppement! To compare, I hold 16 provinces in 217 BC, have an income of about 48000 mnai and compulsory spendings of 36000 (wages, upkeep and corruption), with 3 full stacks (to fight the Seleucids) and a half (to keep a stalemate with the Sakae). My provinces are overdevelopped, I'm a bit proud of it, but my strategy was maybe not the best, now I'm facing Seleucid stacks south of the Caspian, with many Kataphraktoi, Argyraspidai and Thorakitai argyraspidai. Hard times.


When I took back Gava Maszakata from the Sakae, my government building (allied state) had to be repaired, but there was no harm done to the migration and nomadic 'buildings'. Maybe Gov.'s 'destruction' was the cause of my ability to train locals now that I have built 'clanic' buildings. I don't know... Anyway you should indeed build migration, nomadism and recruitment 'camps'.

[george585]

:beam: You grew up too fast and now you're stuck in underdeveloppement! To compare, I hold 16 provinces in 217 BC, have an income of about 48000 mnai and compulsory spendings of 36000 (wages, upkeep and corruption), with 3 full stacks (to fight the Seleucids) and a half (to keep a stalemate with the Sakae). My provinces are overdevelopped, I'm a bit proud of it, but my strategy was maybe not the best, now I'm facing Seleucid stacks south of the Caspian, with many Kataphraktoi, Argyraspidai and Thorakitai argyraspidai. Hard times.
When I took back Gava Maszakata from the Sakae, my government building (allied state) had to be repaired, but there was no harm done to the migration and nomadic 'buildings'. Maybe Gov.'s 'destruction' was the cause of my ability to train locals now that I have built 'clanic' buildings. I don't know... Anyway you should indeed build migration, nomadism and recruitment 'camps'.
I guess I grew to fast. But on the other hand... now it's around 220 BC and AS is nearly destroyed... have only 3 cities left or so... and no Baktria and Saka to worry about.... (always nice to be on the edge of the map with no emerging factions :) And by now my economy is slowly bceomming better. Still I am not even thinking of building level 2 mines and any other expensive buildings.

Fortunately for me too, I was the only one with Kataphraktoi, never saw a single unit of it in AS.

[LordCurlyton]

LOL, No, no - I meant TOTAL. If that was my profit, I would consider myself to be rich! :) I mean when I played rome and had 110+ regions my profits were only 2-2.5 times that... so 25K profit is a lot.
Oh. I sorta consider that mandatory for large empires. My Mak empire of.....60 or so provinces has a profit of roughly 100k per turn. My old Romani one of 101 territories had roughly 70k, but then I had a LOT of armies defending my vast borders. The Pahlav one I currently have which is at 50 territories has almost 75-80k per turn. The Pahlav especially should be awash in money as there are absolutely shed-tons of mines in the eastern provinces, and some of those Baktrian ones are quite lucrative. It all adds up.


Well actually my steppe cities have Nomadism, no pastoralism, and have my gov-t types (usually type 2 or type 3). So I guess I have to destroy my gov-ts and build migration?
No, if they already have Nomadism you don't need to destroy your government. If the Clan Chief Camp line is not built up all the way you should have an option to upgrade it. The higher levels will give you the spiffy HAs. If you have Gava-Mazakata I would advise destroying its gove to build Migration and Nomadism, then build the proper gov back. Gava-Mazakata gives aan absolutely stunning array of HAs and armored HAs to pick from, including the awesome Dahae Nobles.



I nearly always chose Vigorous and Shard over Charismatic.... Probably because I want my generals getting command stars and forgetting about governing aspect. I will try to pay more attention to charisma.
Heh I find command stars to be overrated. Note that even if you have an Uncharaismatic governor it is not an impossibility for him to be a great, influential governor. Its just less likely.



LOL. 200 is rather large - well not large but certainly mid-size garrison for me. May be that's because I play on small unit scale.... (I have GF 7900GT). Besides 1 soldier for 10 citizens, or in real life rather 1 for 9 (if you count the soldiers).... is rather too much soldiers to sustain order... don't you think? and on a side note... it seems a bit strange how simply CA has implemented garrison bonus. You get much bigger bonus for cheap peasants (or equivalents) than for elite infantry just because usually the later are less numerous... not too realistic.
Ah I use large size so 200 men is 2 infantry units, or 4 horse. On Huge that would be 1 infantry unit or 2 horse. And a force equivalent to 5-10% of the population does not strike me as absurdly high, since these soldiers fill the role of modern police, which I think can vary from 3-5% in modern times, more in a more martial state.


May be... I noticed that whenever spy enters my city, order drops. But I have no idea if it's just a one time drop, or it accumulates evry turn.... Nor I am sure how to get rid of enemy spies.... Assasins? But in RTW I never built those... only in M2TW.. to assasinate hostile pope and plays my own.
The spy will drop public order by an amount determined by his skill level, but it doesn't accrue. However, if you have spies entering a city you should build spies of your own there and weed them out. 2 is usually sufficient to catch all but the best and have them killed.


I am close to having 7 units in most problematic cities, and even at low tax rate and 7 units only my influential governer saves me from public order dropping below 75%. But then I did not build that many culture buildings in there yet. Someone mentioned building my own palaces... but it's not always an option.. as you cannot destroy existing palaces and need to wait for city pop to grow.... which may be rather difficult if they rebel and every turn pop. is killed.
Sometimes you just gotta do what ya gotta do, eh? It would be nice if they had a "sideways" conversion build to let you switch the main palace, even at Huge CIty size. Just let it take a nice chunk of time.