Neo-nazi groupings - in Israel...

[HoreTore]

One of the top things I never thought I'd see...

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/902093.html

So, there are nazi's in Israel... Any thoughts?

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

Well, There's Nazi Groups in A lot of Places, not really much you can do about it. If I had I say, that would change ofc, but, not suprising in some aspects.

[Marshal Murat]

I'm thinking this has been posted in the 'Weird News' already.

[Caius]

I'm thinking this has been posted in the 'Weird News' already.
I can confirm this.

[naut]

A bit of a slap in the face for Israel, no doubt all of Arabia is on the floor laughing their heads off.

[KrooK]

I can't call it bug suprise...

[The Wizard]

Mind you, these kids are hardly Jewish. They were thoroughly "secularized" (yes, that's forcibly) by the Soviet state and, in some cases, even identify more with the Russian Orthodox Church than they do with Judaism, or even Zionism or Israel.

These are Russians. Is it therefore still a surprise that they committed these crimes, doing so while benefiting from the programs that brought their sorry, despicable, disgusting asses into the country? They're not Jews at all. They're part of one of the most anti-Semitic peoples on Earth.

I spit on their memory. If it were me, they'd be shot already.

[Snowhobbit]

Whoa, lighten up a bit with the angry shoot 'em all talk there :inquisitive:

[The Wizard]

These people were brought to Israel on Israeli tax payer's money. They show their thanks in this way. Plus, they abuse a law which was created for refugees throughout the world and bring to Israel precisely what the country was founded to prevent. Do they deserve any better?

In fact, they deserve worse. I am a Zionist. I will never again become some stoic, passive shtetl Jew who undergoes torture and oppression. Especially not from scum using some distant relation to my people to threaten and terrorize inhabitants of the one country where this should not, cannot and is not tolerated. As far as I'm concerned they can be chucked into the deepest, dankest dungeon known to man and they key can be thrown away.

[Snowhobbit]

Deserve any better than what?
And hey, if the government creates a program that pretty much allows anyone who's the "right kind of person" shouldn't they you know.. make sure it's not being abused?
I'd like to think that most people deserve better than being shot (apologies if that wasn't what you implied), and if they're doing something illegal, punish them for the crime they commit?

[Del Arroyo]

I don't really like Israel and I don't buy the Zionist world view, but Baba Ga'on is on the mark here. It would be just for them to hang for treason.

[CrossLOPER]

It would be just for them to hang for treason.
How do you figure this? No external power directly profited from this.

[KrooK]

Ok guys now I had serious problem because of you. During my lunch break I checked this topic on my workmate's computer.
30 minutes later he asked me if I'm nazist and why I'm opening nazist wwws from his computer. As a proof he showed topic
"Neo-nazi groupings - in Israel..." .
He saw only first part of these letters so I had to use all my personal charm to explain him that I don't want burn all Jews, especially jewish members of my company.
This might happen, when you are reading .org :(

[Geoffrey S]

I find it rather incredible that such scum dares profit as inhabitants of the state of Israel whilst desecrating its founding principles in such a disgusting way. It's like calling yourself a Christian whilst spitting on the priest, and I'd find it hard to justify keeping them in Israel.

[Tribesman]

Mind you, these kids are hardly Jewish. They were thoroughly "secularized" (yes, that's forcibly) by the Soviet state and, in some cases, even identify more with the Russian Orthodox Church than they do with Judaism, or even Zionism or Israel.

So Baba , would these hardly Jewish idiots who underwent forcible secularisation by the soviets not be sort of undermined in that seculrisation somewhat by being enrolled in an Isreali religeous school ?


Especially not from scum using some distant relation to my people
Now if that some distant relation was for example grandparents who survived the holocaust should they have right of return ? or would they not be jewish enough .
Anyhow it says a lot about your security screening over there if one of these idiots got clearance to work at the Prime ministers office .

Finally , perhaps they can amend the call up for the IDF , possibly they could ask the question "are you a Nazi" before they give them a gun .


I don't really like Israel
Why not ? its only lines on a map , what is there not to like about lines ?

[Snowhobbit]

Why not ? its only lines on a map , what is there not to like about lines ?
Lines always end up crooked on maps:inquisitive:
:juggle2:

[Tribesman]

Hobbit , it depends on how you fold the map :yes:

[Snowhobbit]

Badly.. :furious3:
Now lets get back to the discussion of what to do with "these kids", should we hang them? shoot them? tar and feathers? :book:

"Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said Sunday that the neo-Nazi cell is an isolated incident, to be dealt with by the police and the justice system, and not a widespread phenomenon that requires a blanket solution.

"Let's not incriminate an entire population and fall into the trap of generalizations. There is no need at this time to look for solutions that would affect entire populations," the statement said."
Personally I find the second paragraph particularly interesting, and.. why, since they are clearly anti-jewish, do they mainly assault foreign workers? Not really relevant but something that got me wondering.
So, for all you angry people, why wouldn't it be enough to revoke their citizenship and deport them? I hear that such a law is in the making :book:

[Tribesman]

should we hang them? shoot them? tar and feathers?
What to do eh....
Assault , criminal damage , firearms offences , conspiracy , incitement , public order , possesion of explosives .....add up all the charges , give them the sentance that all the charges add up to when they are convicted of them .


Personally I find the second paragraph particularly interesting, and.. why, since they are clearly anti-jewish, do they mainly assault foreign workers? Not really relevant but something that got me wondering.

Relevant and interesting . Anyhow why do they assault punks ? do they not like themusic or is it the fashion they don't like ?

[Brenus]

"Let's not incriminate an entire population and fall into the trap of generalizations. There is no need at this time to look for solutions that would affect entire populations," the statement says ."
That is an interesting statement… Wasn’t an Israeli Prime Minister (Sharon?) explaining each anti-Semitic / pro-Nazi incident in Europe as a proof of a general anti-Semitic feeling in all the countries involved?
However, I do agree..:beam:

[naut]

... I am a Zionist ...
So that's why your have Hebrew in you Member-Title and Location, (have a good Rosh Hashanah). And the obvious bias in your statements would indicate you are from a rather traditional Jewish family and are possibly in Israel itself? And also you would detest Chomsky and Schlaim?

[The Wizard]

Obvious bias? How interesting. I wasn't aware being disgusted at Nazism in Israel (or anywhere) was an act of showing anything but common sense. When did that change?

As for your question, I was raised without religion -- without even Jewish culture, in fact. In my location it says "Rotterdam, Holland".

Noam Chomsky? A liar when it comes to Israel, perhaps brilliant when it comes to education.


So Baba , would these hardly Jewish idiots who underwent forcible secularisation by the soviets not be sort of undermined in that seculrisation somewhat by being enrolled in an Isreali religeous school ?

Now if that some distant relation was for example grandparents who survived the holocaust should they have right of return ? or would they not be jewish enough.Ah, yes. Why not defend them? Why not? I mean, sheesh, they only abused Israeli citizens in almost every aspect possible and then gave them back neo-Nazism in the country that is a monument against such evil! That's nothing... nothing at all.

As for the religious school part, I'd agree that attacking yarmulke-wearing Jews isn't exactly an example of dedication to God. Wouldn't you?

And as said, these aren't Jews. Simple as that. One Jew does not go Nazi on another. They're Russians, Ukrainians, whatever, and criminals in the purest sense of the word, but the last thing they are is part of the Jewish nation.

[naut]

Obvious bias
Sorry, I should have been more explicit, as I agree that Nazism is an abhorrent abomination. What I meant is the bias you have towards what their punishment should be. The way I see it the punishment Tribesman stated should be the appropriate means of action, and if all the charges are accumulated it makes for a very extensive amount of jail-time. I think the charges should be within the extent of the judicial process, not in the hands of emotion, but that's only the thoughts of one simple man.


In my location it says "Rotterdam, Holland"
Oh o.k., sorry I can't read Hebrew, so I was guessing.

[The Wizard]

I should agree with you. After all, if any judicial system anywhere is the right one to take on this case and mete out proper punishment, it's the Israeli one (and no, not because it's part of a "Jewish state"; rather, because it is simply one of the best and most consistent in the world).

However, allow me some room to be enraged by thankless scum like this, brought out of poverty and insecurity with simple intentions of kindness to what, basically, were refugees (or at the very least migrants/exiles with rather good reasons), which spit in the face of their benefactors and coerced and terrorized innocents as thanks. As said before, I wouldn't mind seeing them hang, or rot in prison forever. That's a pretty usual sentiment, also amongst Westerners, after horrible crimes.

[Tribesman]

Baba

Ah, yes. Why not defend them? Why not?
Am I defending them ?


I mean, sheesh, they only abused Israeli citizens in almost every aspect possible
They are Israeli citizens , not all those abused were Israeli citizens .
Is the abuse of fellow citizens worse or better than the abuse of non citizens ?

then gave them back neo-Nazism in the country that is a monument against such evil!
I never realised Isreal was a monument .


As for the religious school part, I'd agree that attacking yarmulke-wearing Jews isn't exactly an example of dedication to God. Wouldn't you?

Right , so going to an Israeli religeous school doesn't make them religeous , yet being born in Russia makes them forcibly secularised but with a bit of orthodox Christianity thrown in just to confuse things
Sorry Baba but your posts over that don't make much sense.


And as said, these aren't Jews.
What is a Jew ? Are you ?.....I was raised without religion -- without even Jewish culture....in that case are your parents ? are their parents ?


One Jew does not go Nazi on another.
Unfortunately that is not the case , it has never been the case .


However, allow me some room to be enraged by thankless scum like this, brought out of poverty and insecurity with simple intentions of kindness to what..... Kindness !!!!!!!! you are having a laugh , the immigration policy has more to do with demographics than kindness .
To widen that particular topic and then bring it back onto topic (sort of).....look at Iran .
How much more do Iranian Jews get paid to move to Israel than other countries Jews , when they take the offer but then go back home or elsewhere citing racism as a reason , who is being racist to them ?
Is it other Israelis who think they are the wrong kind of Jew and don't belong in Israel ?


Rythmic

The way I see it the punishment Tribesman stated should be the appropriate means of action, and if all the charges are accumulated it makes for a very extensive amount of jail-time. I think the charges should be within the extent of the judicial process, not in the hands of emotion, but that's only the thoughts of one simple man.

While it is very satisfying for an individual to kick the crap out of racist gobeens , it is not the job of the State or the judiciary , their job is to uphold the law and deliver punishments in accordance with the law . Get all the charges together , get a conviction if the evidence supports it , then give consecutive sentances to make an example .

[Tuuvi]

After looking at the picture on the article I have decided that those kids aren't real nazis, just wannabe punks taking things way to far....As for punishment they should definantly get jailtime...

[CrossLOPER]

After looking at the picture on the article I have decided that those kids aren't real nazis, just wannabe punks taking things way to far....As for punishment they should definantly get jailtime...
Calling for a punishment less than castration, on MY ORG?...

Good man. You may yet have hope.

[PanzerJaeger]

Ugh - nazis these days are so pathetic. Go big or go home.

And whats with the Jew bashing in the 21st century. :shame:

Neofascism can be very appealing to a whole lot of people if packaged right. Goebbels is probably turning in his grave over the current state of things.

This stuff just makes them seem like idiots, in Israel no less... which they probably are. :wall:

[Strike For The South]

Wow they have shaved heads and salute! They must be hardcore! What a bunch of nancys!!!! LOL

[Del Arroyo]

You know what's crazy? When people get into these kinds of discussions and there's always one or two people who just say "well I think we should do what the law says cuz the law is good cuz its the law". No kidding the law is good. Is this a courtroom? How about don't be such a square?

[naut]

Pray do tell when being rational on matters of distinction became obtuse? :book:

[Tribesman]

You know what's crazy?
Yes , saying things like......It would be just for them to hang for treason.:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

[Del Arroyo]

I'm not so sure that it wouldn't be. Granted it is a highly unlikely outcome within the framework of a stable legal system based on progressive ideals, but can you say that they really wouldn't deserve it?

Punishments are always harsher for those who abuse their in-group status to commit atrocities against the whole.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

This is clearly an issue with the "Law of Return" which is in itself a thorny issue. To claim that Isreal is some shiny light of equality and humanitarianism is a stetch to say the least.

The easiest way to get into the country is to claim a connection to a specific ethnicity or faith. That's preferencial racism and in this particualr instance it is a law custom made to fuel anti-Semetism.

In reality though the whole of Isreal is a rallying point for anti-Semetism.

[The Wizard]

You know what I find crazy? Tribesman pulling the Holocaust into it, with the subject being Neo-Nazis. Pray tell, how, indeed, would their grandparents feel about this, having survived the shoah?

While you're at it, you might as well explain to me how, when, and maybe even why one Jew somewhere, ever has gone Nazi on another. You see, for anyone with half a brain, that is a simple impossibility. That's why it's this simple: these people aren't Jews. If they even were in the first place (which, at the very, very least, is highly debatable), then they certainly aren't anymore.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

You know what I find crazy? Tribesman pulling the Holocaust into it, with the subject being Neo-Nazis. Pray tell, how, indeed, would their grandparents feel about this, having survived the shoah?

While you're at it, you might as well explain to me how, when, and maybe even why one Jew somewhere, ever has gone Nazi on another. You see, for anyone with half a brain, that is a simple impossibility. That's why it's this simple: these people aren't Jews. If they even were in the first place (which, at the very, very least, is highly debatable), then they certainly aren't anymore.

It's not, there was a Jew that helped Hitler to gass lots of other Jews, then there were several in the Reich. Not to mention Hitler himself who was, by his own standards, Jewish.

[Tribesman]

You know what I find crazy? Tribesman pulling the Holocaust into it, with the subject being Neo-Nazis
Hey don't blame me , it was the family of one of the neo-nazis that did it :yes:
He's a good little boy really , been to religeous school and everything he would never be a Nazi, especially after his what his grandmother went through with the holocaust ........It does help if you read the Israeli news once in a while eh :laugh4:


While you're at it, you might as well explain to me how, when, and maybe even why one Jew somewhere, ever has gone Nazi on another. You see, for anyone with half a brain, that is a simple impossibility.
Well luckily I ain't that stupid:dizzy2: ....now then Baba the history of your people .
Those nice fellows in blue uniforms with the yellow cap band and star of David motif , worked in the ghettos under the councils (of course only the realy posh ones had the full uniform most only had the hat or armbandand a handy stick to beat people with) nice upstanding pillars of the community and all that , did they help round up and then load onto trains their fellow Jews for sending to the camps ?


It's not, there was a Jew that helped Hitler to gass lots of other Jews, then there were several in the Reich. Not to mention Hitler himself who was, by his own standards, Jewish.
Wigferth , you wouldn't be so kind as to provide Baba with a list of Nazis that were by their own criteria Jewish ...as I really can't be bothered :shrug:

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Neither can I really, quite a few I think, including some pretty high level ones, and some who actually considered themselves Jewish.

[The Wizard]

Hey don't blame me , it was the family of one of the neo-nazis that did it
He's a good little boy really , been to religeous school and everything he would never be a Nazi, especially after his what his grandmother went through with the holocaust ........It does help if you read the Israeli news once in a while ehNowhere in this paragraph do you succeed in explaining how exactly you can be a the supporter of an ideology with an extremely well-expressed and -articulated hatred of Jews (amongst others), and at the same time be a member of the Jewish people. All you do is establish that he has a grandparent who survived the shoah (which is why his betrayal is made extra disgusting) and that he goes to a religious school, during none of which you seem to realize that, just maybe perhaps, that might not have any effect whatsoever on his mindset. You see, it might be interesting to keep in mind that the Neo-Nazi subculture isn't exactly well-represented in Israel...


Well luckily I ain't that stupid ....now then Baba the history of your people .
Those nice fellows in blue uniforms with the yellow cap band and star of David motif , worked in the ghettos under the councils (of course only the realy posh ones had the full uniform most only had the hat or armbandand a handy stick to beat people with) nice upstanding pillars of the community and all that , did they help round up and then load onto trains their fellow Jews for sending to the camps ?That's a good job right there, reading me me own history...

Unfortunately, you left out the part where these "collaborators" in the councils, and with the people who worked for those councils, you point out, were all held at gunpoint, with huge problems facing them and their communities now driven into the ghetto and nothing but a murderous regime with a gun in the small of your back as supplier of your needs. Oops!

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

You seem to have this really weird idea that Jews are less likely to screw each other over than other people.

The fact is there were a significant number of willing collaberators.

[Tribesman]

Nowhere in this paragraph do you succeed in explaining how exactly you can be a the supporter of an ideology with an extremely well-expressed and -articulated hatred of Jews (amongst others), and at the same time be a member of the Jewish people.
All I did in that paragraph was repeat what his sister said in the Jerusalem Post interview . She identifies herself as Jewish , she says he is Jewish
You say he isn't . So I ask again what is a Jew ?
There are lots of definitions out there (lots and lots), which one are you using ?
Unless you are able to define what makes someone Jewish then how can you say that someone is not .
Are there many definitions that would say that you are not Jewish yourself ?:yes:

[Fragony]

You seem to have this really weird idea that Jews are less likely to screw each other over than other people.

The fact is there were a significant number of willing collaberators.

Yup, here we had the so-called jewish council, nothing but nazi puppets, a lot of dutch jews were betrayed by their fellow jews. In 1943 when they had most of them they went to poland themselves.