Which (mainland Greek faction) is superior?

[gran_guitarra]

Okay, here is my question.
Which of the factions in mainland Greece (a.k.a. The Makedonians, Epeirotes, and Koinon Hellenon) do you think has a superior unit line-up?

I think that the Koinon Hellenon have the worst. Thier phalanxes are weaker and less useful than the Epeirote and Makedonian phalanxes, with less people, worse stats, and smaller pikes. Their spearmen units are also inferior or equal to the counterparts in the Makedonian or Epeirote line-up. The Epeirote have Illyrians, which are superior to the Hellenic versions, and the Makedonians have Theurophoroi as well, and Pheraspidai/Hypaspitai, both of which are superior to Thorakitai. In terms or Regionals the Koinon Hellenon are also worse off. If the war drags on (peace settlements are made/a stalemate is achieved) the Epeirotes can field Italic units (Tarantine Elites, Lucanian Light infantry, Samnites), while the Makedonians can field Getic auxiliaries and Galatians from the Northeast. The Koinon Hellenon can, at best, get Toxotai Kretikoi if they conquer Krete during a peace period. The best Greek Cavalry is also a joke compared to Hetairoi or Molossos Agema. The Koinon Hellenon have one unit that is truly capable of outshining whatever it faces from the Epeirotes/Makedonians, the Hoplitai Spartiatai. These guys are better (marginally) than Hypaspitai, and capable of doing the job quite well.

Between the Makedonians and Epeirotes its really a question of what we look at. The cavalry is pretty even, with the Makedonians BEST cavalry being slightly better than the Epeirote one. Skirmishers and ranged units are also pretty much the same. Regionals are about even. The Epeirotes can get Italic unit, but the Makedonians can get Getic and Galatian units. The phalanxes (their bread and butter) are about even, excepting the highest level, which the Epeirote's have an advantage in. The spearmen are better for the epirote side, with the Illyrians outshining the Makedonians by a quite a bit. The Makedonian uber elites, Pheraspidai and Hypaspitai, are about even with Illyrioi Thorakitai, if a little better.

I think that the Epeirotes would have a slight advantage in unit line-up. The Makedonians make a close second, and the Koinon Hellenon are the weakest of the three.

[Anastasios Helios]

Let us look at position. A Hellenic army can defend the isthmus of Cornith and build up a great economy in the islands and the Peloponnese. Makedon must worry about Thracians, Hellenes, Pontioi, Seleukids, and Eperios has Rome to deal with. The Koinon Hellenon definitely has the best position between the three.

Also...I'd rather have the Koinon Hellenon's army in the hand of a competent general than the other two Phalangites, Illyrian and Getae Mercenaries, and superior horses in the hands of a noob.

[Ice]

https://img261.imageshack.us/img261/1880/3001ln4.th.jpg (https://img261.imageshack.us/my.php?image=3001ln4.jpg)

I couldn't resist.

:beam:

[Bellum]

Also...I'd rather have the Koinon Hellenon's army in the hand of a competent general than the other two Phalangites, Illyrian and Getae Mercenaries, and superior horses in the hands of a noob.

How about the AI? :P

[gran_guitarra]

We are not taking into account a player's strength or weakness. A good player can use the Sab'yn (the most incomplete faction) to defeat a noob using the Romanii.

The Koinon Hellenon are also pretty screwed in position. They start off with three cities only. One of them has an army large enough to take it nearby, the other is undermanned, and the last one is an island which is making negative thousands of mnai.
The Epeirote have, thanks to their elephants, the power to take most of nothern Greece, leaving the Makedonians and Koinon Hellenon to fight each other in Attika and the Peloponese. They can also ship over thier army from Tarentum (like they did historically) and have an even bigger and better army to take out their enemies with.
The Makedonians have a concentrated and focused Kingdom. They have large enough armies and coffers to, by turn 2, have enough forces to take on the Koinon Hellenon and Epeirotes at the same time.
The Epeirotes can sacrifice Tarentum at the start because it will rebel to them every so often, giving them a platform to use in Italia. The Makedonians are in no threat from the Arche Seleukeia until they move into Ionia, at which point they can get alliances with all the Seleukids enemies.

The Koinon Hellenon's position is also inferior to the other's. The fact that their armies are scattered doesn't help either.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

I would say that my favourite out of those three is Makedonia. They have superior elites and cavalry. They have a organized staring possition. And my two favorite: they historically were the dominant faction out of those three; and they are the best faction for 'recreating Alexander'.

[Olaf The Great]

I like koinon hellenon because you can have a "Roman army" with the theurophoroi type units. Classical phalanx(hoplites, spartans, ekdromoi etc), or a successor phalanx based army(with mecenaries or the Iphrikrates, although the Iphirkrates aren't that great or numerous)

[Beefy187]

I like the long campeign better then the short one. Black units are sexier. So Makedonian are better.:yes:

[Geoffrey S]

https://img261.imageshack.us/img261/1880/3001ln4.th.jpg (https://img261.imageshack.us/my.php?image=3001ln4.jpg)

I couldn't resist.

:beam:
https://img128.imageshack.us/img128/6446/thisistartaaaarrl8.jpg

[mAIOR]

I would say that my favourite out of those three is Makedonia. They have superior elites and cavalry. They have a organized staring possition. And my two favorite: they historically were the dominant faction out of those three; and they are the best faction for 'recreating Alexander'.

I wuldn't call them dominante. Franqly, until Phyrrus death the Epirotes were the rising star.

Cheers...

[pezhetairoi]

KH is undoubtedly the worst. If their hoplites had 200 instead of 160 per unit, and their phalanxes the same, then perhaps more could be said. But as it is, they are definitely going to be outmanned, unit for unit. Position is quite crappy too, none of the cities are mutually supporting. Athenai is likely to be besieged from turn 1, and Sparte can't make it there in time to make any difference. And Rhodos...Rhodos isn't near -anywhere-. You may as well be playing three one-city factions at the same time and it wouldn't make any difference. Greek cavalry is incredibly poor, but that is an inherent weakness that we can't really solve. Best I can see is to make the Hippeis Thessalikoi available to them as a regional if they get Demetrias, to even things out with a decent medium cavalry. But otherwise, historically the Greeks were strong in infantry and weak in cavalry, so that has to be the context we must function in. With stronger infantry, I think we can make a case for KH to stand up to Epeiros, though Makedonia is still a bit dicey.

The KH have infantry to be proud of. In stats they can counter anything the enemy can throw at them. It's only the numbers that let them down. I'll say, though, the most -varied- lineup is Makedonia's and where I'm concerned, that's important to me because I like seeing lots of flashy new cool units filling the recruitment tab in the city menu rather than the same old monotonous units of big shielded fellas. And further, the KH skins are strangely coloured. Hoplitai look drab, all gray and black, and the peltastai look like a fashion disaster with their blue clashing with red.

Okay i'm venturing far afield here and rambling. 'nuff said.

[Anastasios Helios]

You may as well be playing three one-city factions at the same time and it wouldn't make any difference.

That is the beauty of a KH game. It is like you are controlling multiple factions as opposed to just one. You have the opportunity to strike many places, eventually making a nice southern Aegean Empire with a damn excellent economy.

[pezhetairoi]

That's a point. I used to love playing greek cities in vanilla because it was so -divergent-. But that notion doesn't really appeal as strongly on EB somehow. It's like with the removal of Syracuse from the faction, a whole dimension is lost. Ah well. I suppose I'll just go edit the EDB myself and go try out KH with slightly bigger, slightly meaner units, and see.

[Strategos Alexandros]

IMO Epeiros's units are the best looking and they start with a large successor army.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

The best unit roster is the Makedonian one. They have quite everything you need: The best phalanx, the Hypaspistai and Pheraspidai which are arguably the best shield-bearer-type unit, the very best cavalry with Thessalians and Thraikians and most notably the Hetairoi. And they have incredibly good regional units accessable with the Agrianians, the Thraikian Pelstats, the Triballoi, the Thraikian and Scythian Riders, and of course the heavy Galatian infantry and cavalry. Not to mention Syrian archers. There is only one unit type they are inferior compared to their mainland adversaries: That's the often mentioned "imitation legionary", namely Thorakitai which they don't have access to. The role of the Thorakitai, which is quite diverse, has to be filled by different types, namely Hypaspists, Pheraspides, Thureophoroi and Agrianians. Deployed properly and working hand in hand, these can of course outmatch Thorakitai by far. I myself have slaughtered them in droves.

The best strategic starting position has Epeiros, Makedonia has the worst. Evidence is given frequently in the "AI faction progression" thread. Ever seen a Makedonian empire over there? I've seen one (or better a half) once, not more. Epeiros on the other hand is almost always successful, either in Hellas where it is conquering Makedonia proper and Thessalia, then advancing north to the barbarians of Illyria, or it is advancing in Italy crushing the Roman Republic. The Greeks to the south don't have an easy time, but they can overcome the Makedonian troops on the Peloponnesos and do so quite often.

[geala]

Epeiros is superior, with Makedonia as a close second. The reason is that Epeiros has elephants nearby. Makedonia has slightly better top cavalry with armoured horses and elite infantry guard troops, but the difference it not so great and I was not very impressed in my Macedonian campaign from the two Makedonian agema units. Thorakitai can in fact do the same. If you fight enemies with strong infantry, esp. elite phalanges or pesky Spartans or Romans, the elephants make a big difference. Another reason perhaps: Chaonian Agema phalangites are the best in the game in my opinion and also good without phalanx mode. On the other hand the Macedons get the Thracian peltasts, very good skirmishers with a strong punch in close combat thanks to the romphaias. So, it's the elephants.

It's a pity that I have played both factions very intensively. What shall I play in the future, with only losers left...?

[Bootsiuv]

The KH are no push-overs....and they have access to good regional cavalry which make up for that weakness in there armed forces. The Bodyguard hoplites and Spartans are ruthless.

I would definitely take the KH over the other two simply because of their starting position. The pelleponese is easily defendable, as is Attika and the islands.

That being said, the other two probably do have a superior army. The KH is a little outdated for the game period. The successor armies were superior to classical armies....throw in Epeirotes ability to recruit elephants in Ambrakia, and they definitely have a healthy line-up. They also have to fight Rome, and Makedon has to worry about the barbarians to the north, the Epeirotes to the west, and the KH to the south....not exactly an easy starting position.

Just my 2 cents

[blank]

Epirotes have ugly green tunics and KH has too few regionals, so i'd say Macedon

[Tellos Athenaios]

It depends on how you want to play your battles; but I think I must go with Makedonia here.

For a quick no worries back-bone of your army: Phalangitai, ready made.
For an all-round quality mix: well; they might lack Thorakitai type units, but make up for it with regionals.

You will be surprised to see how effectively you can tackle any Mak-style army with your regular Koinon troops: you can anihilate their cavalry and infantry cores with your much more mobile infantry line-up.
Also in the upcoming builds, you will find the Koinon to have access to better elite foot guards than the Makedonians; only matched/outperformed by their Seleukid; Iberian & Irish equivalents.

Yes, the Koinon have the ideal toolkit for mopping up Makedonian battle lines (even better than the Romans or Celts have), only surpassed by the Qartadastim forces.
Thing is; the Koinon will always suffer from missile-based armies - even though not as bad as the early Romans, or Celts will.

[pezhetairoi]

The KH are no push-overs....and they have access to good regional cavalry which make up for that weakness in there armed forces.



Hey bootsiuv, what regional cavalry are we speaking of? I wasn't aware they had any good cavalry at all unless they conquered Scythian parts...

[sgsandor]

I have to agree that KH looks kool but in Greece its gotta be my boys in Green Epiros! This sounds kind of dumb but they remind of Guns n Roses albulm appetite for destruction cause they just wanna take everyone on!

[Anastasios Helios]

If you conquer Thessalia, then you can recruit Hippeis Thessalikoi. They are decent horsemen for holding off the Hetaraioi. I'm interested in learning more about these new powerful bodyguard units. I would love to see the Spartans put more fear in enemy units. :laugh4:

[Spoofa]

Makedonia.


Period.


Although the KH have some awesome phalanx units (underhanded spear)

Alexander rocks.

everybody else loses.

Alexander is like chuck norris :laugh4:

[Bootsiuv]

If I'm not mistaken, Thessalonian Cavalry are regionals, and they're good-quality light cavalry....aside from Hippeis that's about it as far as I know....and if I'm not mistaken, Thessalonian Cavalry are far superior to Hippeis.

I don't worry too much about cavalry though....light hoplites from Athens cover my flanks very well, and they're fast enough to go around the Makedonian flanks themselves.

EDIT: Anastasio, you beat me to it.

@Pezhetaroi

I'm sorry, but I have to strongly disagree with your assumptions that the KH has a bad starting position. It's quite well known that Antigonus ALWAYS goes north to defend Pella from Pyrrhos. I've played several KH games and have never had Athens attacked on turn 1.

I always take Korinthos on turn 2 and Chalkis on turn 3....and after that, I'd say the KH has the most defensible position in the game.

[Anastasios Helios]

*high five*

Ζιτο Ελλας!

[Spoofa]

oops..... double post sorry

[Spoofa]

rebellious greeks...... taking the most defend able position in greece... :laugh4:

you're lives would be much nicer under the makedonian rule, with our big long sarissa's...... (figurative language for somthing else that is makedonian and big and long.....? :laugh4: )

[pezhetairoi]

Oh if the KH can recruit Thessalikoi, then that's alright. They are called medium cavalry, but the way they can hold their own against even hetairoi, I'd say they deserve to be called heavy cavalry. On the light side, but still heavy. The Thessalikoi are the heaviest and best-performing medium cav ingame IMHO, and if the KH have them, all that's missing is larger unit sizes, and we're all set. Even as it is, they are now viable.

[Fondor_Yards]

Hmmm in the newest build use beta guys are getting.....Epirotes easy. Best Units+Best Skins=Ownage.

[pezhetairoi]

Hmm. Without telling us too much, are you saying Epeiros has changes, have other factions been nerfed so Epeiros becomes easier? I much prefer Makedonia personally, the Black Death is deadlier than the Grey one! Or the Green one, which to me is just a species of mold.

[Spoofa]

Green one, which to me is just a species of mold.


Rofl.



mr.yard stop telling us GOODIES.


I would rather wait and see it and be like :The end: to my friends and family due to the amount of time i would be spending in my room on my computer than have u tell us b4 I can see it. :yes:

[Fondor_Yards]

Well, I can say.......they did get the best unit of the game. The mighty Bartix Elite Pikemen, unstoppable in life, even more powerful in death. All shall temble under their might! Muha!

I like them because I like their skins better then the maks *cept the mak Hypaspistai which is awsome and Hysteroi Pezhetairoi with their purple cloaks*. And I think it's safe to say and assume from the previews no faction hasn't been left unchanged, that's why it's still in beta stage after all.

*Pet's his pretty Molosson Agema and Illyrian Units*

[Zarax]

It depends on how you want to play your battles; but I think I must go with Makedonia here.

For a quick no worries back-bone of your army: Phalangitai, ready made.
For an all-round quality mix: well; they might lack Thorakitai type units, but make up for it with regionals.

You will be surprised to see how effectively you can tackle any Mak-style army with your regular Koinon troops: you can anihilate their cavalry and infantry cores with your much more mobile infantry line-up.
Also in the upcoming builds, you will find the Koinon to have access to better elite foot guards than the Makedonians; only matched/outperformed by their Seleukid; Iberian & Irish equivalents.

Yes, the Koinon have the ideal toolkit for mopping up Makedonian battle lines (even better than the Romans or Celts have), only surpassed by the Qartadastim forces.
Thing is; the Koinon will always suffer from missile-based armies - even though not as bad as the early Romans, or Celts will.

Ah, the famous Thorakitai Chobamai (A cookie to who finds the reference)...
That will definitely make the game more interesting...
Speaking of units, are there any plans for a bosphoran greek unit like it's been done for massiliote hoplitai?

[keravnos]

*high five*

Ζιτο Ελλας!

please forgive my urge to correct you, but my mother was a "Φιλόλογος"...

Zήτω η Ελλάς! Ζήτω το "Κοινόν Ελλήνων"!

[Anastasios Helios]

My excitement while typing in Greek always gets the better of me...ugly typos. :-/

[Vorian]

I prefer playng with KH cause I like the challenge of it, trying to fight the Seleucids, Ptolemies and Romands is quite a challenge. And I usually need some years before I manage to move to northern Greece and take Pella and Ambrakia.
When I play as Macedon it's easy to conquer all Greece and go to Asia Minor, which I find boring.
And for some reason, Ijust don't like the Epirots..Maybe cause I always disliked Pyrrhos, dying by a brick thrown by some woman in Argos, what an uncool death for an Alexander wanabe.:thumbsdown:

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

Yeah all wannabes. And Hippeis Thessalikoi are definitely heavy cavalry. Their charge is not so powerful like the charge of the Hetairoi, but they are cheaper and faster.

[Bootsiuv]

Wow, I wasn't aware that they were heavy cavalry....I haven't played KH in a while, and have only gotten the necessary MIC's to build them once (the last time I played KH actually, which is when I discovered them and said....holy shit, those are awesome).

I really couldn't remember if they were light or heavy, but I knew they were far superior to Hippies.

[pezhetairoi]

Well, -technically- they aren't 'heavy', their description brands them medium cavalry. But to all intents and purposes, they are bona fide heavy cavalry, yea. I'm a big fan of Thessalikoi, and when I played Makedonia, expanding westwards, even though I had the capability to build Hetairoi, I never did. They're cheaper and they do the job. But than again, this is the guy who played Baktria all the way to Sardis with nothing better than Pantodapoi Phalangitai, Thureophoroi and Shuban Fradakshana...

[GodEmperorLeto]

Position is quite crappy too, none of the cities are mutually supporting. Athenai is likely to be besieged from turn 1, and Sparte can't make it there in time to make any difference.
Not true. Although it is pointless to make a unit of Spartiates spend a turn outside of Laconia, since they vanish, you can use the fleet to transport a sizeable portion of your Spartan army to Athens and smack the Macedonian army right there. Send your diplomat out and make advantageous alliances with the Getai and Epirus, and you'll have Macedonia pinned on two other sides.

Cut down your navy (whack the expensive ships and then build one fleet of low-upkeep crap transports later) and work on building roads. Don't invest Corinth until after you've secured at least Crete. Keep trying to sue with Macedonia for peace. They'll resist until Epirus starts slugging with them. Don't hesitate to disband pointless units for increased taxation. Play it cool and pray, and when the time is right, go for Crete.

Rhodes isn't important to defend, because nobody usually goes for it, so you don't have to load up its garrison until later, when people start building fleets and the occasional amphibious assault inexplicably occurs.

Euboaea is usually lightly held (or at least held with a decent force). After grabbing and pacifying Crete, nail Euboea. Macedon will most likely respond. Let them. Corinth is your primary target. Make them besiege a lightly held Euboea while you invest Corinth. Try to starve it out, it isn't worth the cost in men to assault. You'll probably have to fight a sally, but it won't be as bad as storming the city.

Once Corinth is yours, Euboea won't be hard to take for good, especially with your increased funds.

Sometimes the unexpected happens and these plans fail. Oh well. Life goes on. I at least try to get Macedonia out of the Peloponesse, and grab Crete and Euboea before suing for peace and then building a giant expedition to retry what Athens failed at doing during the Peloponnesian War--the capture of Syracuse.

By the time I grab Syracuse, I have a decent economy, good defenses, strong ties with neighbors, trade negotiations, and a somewhat stable peace with Epirus and Macedonia. After Syracuse joins the league, it is usually a done deal-I'm powerful enough to stop worrying as hard. I might try to finish securing the mainland (I like getting Delphi and Thessaly under my control), or I might make a grab for Halicarnassus and the consolidation of Ionia into the League.

You've got to play it just right, and hope that Epirus (and later the Getai) hammer Macedonia enough to keep them busy and off of your case. But that first victory against their army right next to Athens is essential. You cannot afford to lose a city or even get besieged and lose initiative like that. KH is hard, but it isn't impossible and it isn't terrible. In fact, I think it is one of the most fun factions to play out.

[pezhetairoi]

Not true. Although it is pointless to make a unit of Spartiates spend a turn outside of Laconia, since they vanish,

I read your entire message, but all I was really able to see was this.

Do you mean Spartiates cannot leave Lakonia? o.o I thought they were the elites.

EDIT: Oh, and I don't like Epeiros because of one main reason: They have a green dog as their symbol. It's so...uncool. And the dog's so skinny it's practically an SPCA case, too. That, and their unit mainstays all have such -restricted- recruitment zones...

[Bootsiuv]

How can you hate on the Molossian Hounds? I mean, come on, they're Molossian, they're hounds, what more could a man ask. :P

[Anastasios Helios]

Spartans vanish outside of Laconia?

It is wise to not invest in a huge superpowerful navy. 4000 mani per ships will break you in a few turns. In my game, I control most of the Black Sea coast, Thracia, Pontus (proper), southern Hellas, Syracuse, Tolosa, and Massilia. I have this huge navy of super penterimes (sp) that wrecks destruction on any opposing navy. Next, the attack on Alexandria....and the Ptolemaioi empire stretches from Cyrene all the way to the Saka lands...it is a scary sight.

[pezhetairoi]

I had to mod that to prevent it from happening. They were the damned Golden Horde in my game, splitting the Seleukid Empire half-half with Baktria, and nearly taking over Asia Minor too. I had to relocate the cockroaches a.k.a. Makedonia to Asia Minor by giving them the cities I'd bribed from the Ptolemaioi when we were still allies, since I'd taken their homelands and didn't exactly want to give them back. The Seleukidai had been forced into Armenia where they eked out a measly existence, and they in turn forced Hayasdan into Kotais where they eked out and -even- measlier existence. I had use copious bribes and rebellions and cheating in order to give the Seleukids back their central provinces and restrict Ptolemaioi back to Syria, and at the same time nerfing Baktria a bit. It was really tough pushing Hayasdan back into their homeland.

Why doesn't the damned diplomacy accept cities given as gifts before?! Now those who aren't allies just tell me 'Oh yeah right, you're just gonna take it back from us again aren't ya?' and refuse. I mean, here I am trying to save THEIR skins, and they're biting the hand that feeds them. Sigh. Whoever installed that diplomatic feature ought to be dragged outside and shot, it's really making our manipulations difficult.

But that's neither here nor there. I wasn't aware Molossan Hounds were so pathetically skinny, it must be a really hard life up in the mountains... xP

[Bootsiuv]

If there is one thing that will always disappoint me about this game, it's the diplomacy.

It really is pretty f****d up.

[Anastasios Helios]

My favorite style of diplomacy....

Spartan Bronze

[geala]

Are you joking about Epeiros? New units in the next release to make it easier? Even if you gave Epeiros flying mercs from Atlantis with laser weapons it would not be so much easier because it is already so easy. :laugh4:
After you have Chaonian Agema, Molossan cavalry and Thorakitai plus a gold chevron Armoured Indian elephant unit plus artillery my effort in battles is not to win but to win with minimal numbers of losses. A ratio of more than 50-70 dead soldiers compared to 2500 enemy deaths equals a loss in battle. With hoplite armies or Roman troops I cannot achieve the same. Also not with Macedonia because the lack of elephants. Even Hetairoi need several attacks to the rear of elite phalanges or Greek, Lusotannan, Roman or Sweboz uber-elite troops...

[Conqueror]

Makedonia is sweet like chocolate, you can tell by their color :2thumbsup:

Their unit line-up is good and very powerful, especially if you hire some Kretan mercs to provide missile support. Campaign start is a nice challenge and after securing Greece you can pretty much pick and choose which direction to expand.

KH to me is boring. Way too infantry-focused, no elite cavalry, no elephants. And those Spartans may be pretty but they are not that hot. Not to mention that their generals are infantry :no:

Epeiros is kind of interesting, but not as good as Makedonia. Having elephants from the start is definetly nice, but I dislike the way their lands are spread between Italy and Greece. Altough it might make for a fun campaign to do something daring and unhistorical: To have Pyrrhos withdraw from the homelands and go for an all-out offensive in Italy - destroy the Romani and build an empire on the peninsula, or die trying!

[GodEmperorLeto]

I read your entire message, but all I was really able to see was this.
Do you mean Spartiates cannot leave Lakonia? o.o I thought they were the elites...
Maybe it's just me, but they turn into regular hoplites when I take them out of Laconia. Maybe I have a bug, but I thought it was part of how they were supposed to be.

Maybe I have a bug and should try reinstalling it. Great. There goes my afternoon.

[Conqueror]

:inquisitive: That sounds really weird. I've experienced the insufferable presense of Spartan hoplites in KH armies attacking me outside of Lakonia. And I'm not talking about the general's bodyguard units.

[Bootsiuv]

@GodEmperorLeto

That has to be a mistake. As far as I know, there is no mechanism built into the game that changes one unit into another.

I think you simply looked at the wrong unit or got confused.

If it is the case, you have a very f*****d up version of R:TW, friend.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

Maybe it's just me, but they turn into regular hoplites when I take them out of Laconia. Maybe I have a bug, but I thought it was part of how they were supposed to be.

Maybe I have a bug and should try reinstalling it. Great. There goes my afternoon.
That is crazy weird. :dizzy2: I don't even know if something like that could be done on purpose. Are you sure?

[Andronikos]

I want to say only: WESTERN GREEK FACTIONS RULEZ!!!

[pezhetairoi]

I definitely don't know. But it does seem overly ridiculous that you can only use your elite unit in a province that most of the time is NEVER under threat after the first 5 years. Once a Spartiate, always a Spartiate. Whyever would they change into normal hoplites... Maybe they're going undercover! Yes!

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Makedonia is best becuase between the Thrakians, Shield Bearers, and Companions you have some of the best special units.

Companions can pull off multiple charges without suffering any losses if used properly and that is invaluable. Thessalians are better used to fight other cavalry so that the Companions aren't wasted.

[johnhughthom]

Slightly off topic but I've been using the KH and have managed to beat the Epirotes and Maks out of most of modern day Greece. Now I don't have a great knowledge of this era of history but as far as I'm aware the Koinon Hellenon was formed due to the threat from Macedon and only lasted a few years before it was defeated. My question is how long do people think this alliance would have lasted had the Macedonian threat been defeated, surely Sparta and Athens would have been at each others throats after a while, especially if there were spoils of war and newly conquered lands to share out. I take it there would be no way to simulate something like this with the RTW engine, perhaps something for EB2? Or of course I could just be totally wrong with my reworking of history :book:.

[Zarax]

One option would be in EB2 to represent the cities using all the faction slots left, basically in the same way as romans were represented in RTW...

I'm sure this would be highly unpopular but it's a possible solution...

[pezhetairoi]

I'm not sure that'd be a good idea, really, you'd just get stagnation in Greece because they'd be too busy fighting each other to fight the Makedonians, which is not exactly what Chremonides intended, I'm sure...

[Bootsiuv]

It's not what he intended, but I think it would accurately portray the greeks inability to stop in-fighting.

I know there has been talk of this on the EB2 forum, but I don't think the team was very receptive. It seems like a rather ugly solution at best, since they could very well break the alliance long before Makedon is not a threat.

[Lysander13]

For my money the Makedonian roster is superior...probably one of the best in the game and can hold their own against the heavyweights like the Romani or AS on a unit for unit comparison. Granted, i admit freely i haven't tried all of the factions but the Mak roster when including regionals and all things considered has to rank as being one of the best pound for pound factions in the game sort of speak in terms of potential unit lineup. That said i'm a KH fella myself as i like playing the role of underdog against the big bad Successor Armies not to mention i'm just an old romantic for the "Old Powers" of Sparte and Athenai.

As for what would've happen to them had they been able to fend of the yolk of Makedon. Always an interesting question.....Nothing in their history suggests this alliance would endure of course except for the immediate self interest of each individual City State; which in this case had the same enemy as they saw it. But once that enemy had been vanquished......tragically more of the same more than likely.

[pezhetairoi]

As for what would've happen to them had they been able to fend of the yolk of Makedon. Always an interesting question.....

Aye, always interesting, alright. I expect they'd have to contend with the white of Epeiros, then? Or perhaps the shell of the Romani. Rofl. XD

No offence intended, but the opening you presented for that jibe was so...inviting. I couldn't resist. ;-)

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

I once made the purpose to split the KH up in three factions starting in a triple alliance, but the team was not very happy about it. I still think it's a good idea though.

Btw, with the full Mak-roster, you can shatter everyone with almost no losses, in an easy and maneuverable battle-deployment. It is just invincible - the only thing it requires is an able commander. After all I think there's a reason Alexander conquered the world.

[Andronikos]

Makedonia has one of the best unit roosters in the game - that is truth. The armies of KH are very flexible but Maks have Thrakians to do this job. And Epeirotes have the preatiest phalanx - Chaeonion Agema.
btw. one offtopic question: what do the seleukid argyraspidai have on their shields?

[Zarax]

I'm not sure that'd be a good idea, really, you'd just get stagnation in Greece because they'd be too busy fighting each other to fight the Makedonians, which is not exactly what Chremonides intended, I'm sure...
Not if you get a superfaction like for vanilla, they would fight together long enough to beat any neighbouring threat but after they get a sizeable empire infighting would start...

To be fair, it would make more sense for an alexandrian era mod than EB but given the free slots in MTW2 it would have a chance.

[mAIOR]

Well, I prefer Epirus non the less. you have to play diferent than with the other successors. Regarding Mak unit roster, sure they've everything but I tend to compare them to the AS and well, it seems shallow. Epirus as the Chaonions who're an amazing phalanx force and their cavalry an go toe to toe against the Maks. They only lack an elite flanking unit (the Illyrians do great job since they are 100 but I expect this to be a flaw) but I guess with the rebalanced stats in the next version, we'll have a few surprises in all factions. I'm looking forward to the new FM bodyguards of the KH if you say they are only inferior to the Dosidataskeli and it's derivates!


Cheers...

[Lysander13]

Aye, always interesting, alright. I expect they'd have to contend with the white of Epeiros, then? Or perhaps the shell of the Romani. Rofl. XD

No offence intended, but the opening you presented for that jibe was so...inviting. I couldn't resist. ;-)
:laugh4: ...Hehe...Cute...Now get back in the Tavern where you belong and save me a spot at the bar right in front of the big screen will ya :whip:

[pezhetairoi]

Alright alright... *potters back to the Tavern* Ya, there's a whole dance hall area in front of the big screen, just bring up a chair on EPL match nights, we broadcast them live. :D

[Rodion Romanovich]

Makedonia!

Hetairoi + phalanx = enemy slaughter

In fact, after I had built up 2-3 phalangite armies with hetairoi, my Makedonia just steamrolled everything from romans to seleucids so easily that it almost got boring - every battle ended with total or nearly total enemy slaughter, with less than 100 own casualties...

[Horst Nordfink]

Makedonia are the greatest faction on the game. It is almost impossible to be beaten when you have agryspidai, the assault infantry and decent archers.

I personally don't like KH, their lack of cavalry really hampers the way I like to fight. Their unit roster just isn't as strong as Makedonia either.

I have never been Epeiros, for the same reason that I refuse to be AS or Ptolomies, they are dirty underhand cheating scoundrels! So I can't really comment on them.

[Geoffrey S]

The problem with RTW is that it's very easy to be very cheap with phalanxes, as once in a decent line they're almost impossible to break through. One thing I'm half wondering is if it might be an idea for EB to either make the units smaller or raise the price.

[Strategos Alexandros]

I have only seen enemy cav attack my phalanxes from the front.

[antisocialmunky]

[Jab at AI]Whoever the player picks.[/Jab at AI] -_-'

[MerlinusCDXX]

One option would be in EB2 to represent the cities using all the faction slots left, basically in the same way as romans were represented in RTW...

I'm sure this would be highly unpopular but it's a possible solution...


Slightly off topic but I've been using the KH and have managed to beat the Epirotes and Maks out of most of modern day Greece. Now I don't have a great knowledge of this era of history but as far as I'm aware the Koinon Hellenon was formed due to the threat from Macedon and only lasted a few years before it was defeated. My question is how long do people think this alliance would have lasted had the Macedonian threat been defeated, surely Sparta and Athens would have been at each others throats after a while, especially if there were spoils of war and newly conquered lands to share out. I take it there would be no way to simulate something like this with the RTW engine, perhaps something for EB2? Or of course I could just be totally wrong with my reworking of history :book:.

If the BI engine were being used, the KH could be split into 2 factions by way of the "shadow faction" function (like WRE/WRE Rebels in BI vanilla) ie "Lakhedaimon/Peloponnessian League and Attic Alliance (please excuse the cheesy ahistorical names, these are only being used as reference)" (although I don't know if it is possible to rename the original KH to any more suitable name once the alliance of poleis breaks up) as for when the faction splits, it can be done either when a city rebels from the KH, or (if possible and the talented bunch of folks that write the scripts for EB have the time/inclination) the rebellion could be scripted (have Sparte, Korinthos, Syracusai if in KH hands...maybe Demetrias if in KH hands form a Spartan headed alliance)

[antisocialmunky]

Except that takes up a faction slot and the EB guys want to shove as many peoples in there as possible not just greeks.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

If the three cities of KH were split up, they would be single cities with little power and not interested in expansion. That would put them as less eligable than other Greek cities that were somewhat expansionistic, like Syracuse, Pergamon, or even Massilia. If the KH was divided, it would be best represented with rebel cities.

[Rodion Romanovich]

In my Romani campaign it seems the Koinon Hellenon are expanding a lot (took 2 provinces from Epeiros, almost all Makedon provinces, and they've got possessions up on the steppes too)... It will be an interesting war once our unstable neutrality ends ~:) I forgot the command for turning off fog of war so I can't show any good screenshot though.

[Horst Nordfink]

KH are the bane of my life on my Makedonia campaign! I managed to push them all the way back to Rhodos, and kill all but one of their family members.

Unfortunately, this just pissed them off! They have managed to forge a rather strong empire in Asia Minor and attack me AT LEAST twice a turn from diferent angles, including almost constant boat landings.

They're seriously hampering my war with Eperios, and are costing me a bloody fortune in keeping a standing army ready for their inevitable attacks.

[Zarax]

If the three cities of KH were split up, they would be single cities with little power and not interested in expansion. That would put them as less eligable than other Greek cities that were somewhat expansionistic, like Syracuse, Pergamon, or even Massilia. If the KH was divided, it would be best represented with rebel cities.

Which wouldn't be so ahistorical (KH fans don't kill me please)...
Representing a potential late behaviour of KH is quite hard as historically they were always on the defensive against a single power (maks and later on seleukids)...
IMHO without Rome stomping around they would have been crushed by macedon or a ptolemaic protectorate...

A possible option would be starting with just Athens and Rhodes with Sparta joining via script if a decent sized victory is obtained against the maks and give less empire controlling potential to the faction as a whole, meaning that mantaining public order far from the core would be very hard...

In XGM we created a rebel greek faction to represent that but of course it's not very practical for EB purposes as it would be a "wasted" faction slot...

That said, if any hellenophile would like to see more historical greek action we welcome everybody that can give us historical information on XGM forums (actually given the team size all positions are welcome)...

[Ludens]

If the BI engine were being used, the KH could be split into 2 factions by way of the "shadow faction" function (like WRE/WRE Rebels in BI vanilla) ie "Lakhedaimon/Peloponnessian League and Attic Alliance (please excuse the cheesy ahistorical names, these are only being used as reference)"
A shadow faction still requires a faction slot, so to include this another faction needs to be dropped. Since the Greeks weren't the only faction plagued by internal dissent and rebellion, this would be somewhat unfair. Also, you can only set one name for this shadowfaction, hence they are going to be called the Lakedaimon league even if the rebellion just consists of Rhodos.

I really like the KH, but I agree with Zarax: if you are going to split it, you might as well drop the entire faction. Alone none of the city states stood a chance.

[Zarax]

As far as city-state factions goes I'd rather see Syracuse, Massilia/Emporion/Saguntum or the bosphoran Kingdom, all in interesting locations for varied conflicts...

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

As far as city-state factions goes I'd rather see Syracuse, Massilia/Emporion/Saguntum or the bosphoran Kingdom, all in interesting locations for varied conflicts...
Makedonia wins, everybody else loses. I mean, Epeiros still has a good unit roster, and Makedonian phalanxes + heavy cavalry just beat anything the enemy have, unless the enemy flanks your phalanxes... Then you're toast with both.

Koinon Hellenon, on the other hand, isn't strong. They lack decent cavalry and their hoplite infantry can't stand even Phalangitai Deuteroi in a prolongued conflict. Their missile superiority is easily countered by Makedonian cavalry, and lack of KH cavalry, too.

[Geoffrey S]

If the KH was divided, it would be best represented with rebel cities.
This would be my personal preference regardless, but I can understand that's troublesome considering the work that's gone into the faction.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

There are a lot of factions that start with a single province, most of them much lesser developed than Attica. And they all manage to get on to the road to imperial glory. Why shouldn't the Greeks? Give them a bit stronger starting armies, even if it would be ahistorical, it wouldn't be that ahistorical as a pan-mediterranean greek city-state empire consisting of Athenian nose-up aristocratic democrats and Spartan country-bumpkin fascistoid hillbillies happyly sharing their empire of free Greek city-states.

Btw, Empire and Free City-State are two totally contrasting terms, representing two totally contrasting ideas of governance, politics, life and generally anything.

For the human player these were fantastic challenges to play, and for the AI - well, one would crumble after 10 years, one would crumble after 30 years after conquering 2 provinces, and the last one will become a major player. That's what I predict, and I think that's even more than they could have expected in history. Much more.

[Watchman]

Uhh... right. I seem to recall Rome having already been an empire when it was internally still a republic (if not exactly a city-state anymore). Ditto for Carthage, and Athens too if I'm not mistaken, and not a few of the Medieval Northern Italian mechant-cities...

"Empire" is a position of power in relation to others, not some specific social or organizatorial pattern. You're missing the distinction here.

Not that a free city-state could not be under the rule of an outright dictator or tyrant, for that matter, although that's not strictly speaking relevant here. The free city-state part only defines certain aspects of its territory/core regions and its relationship to something else, ie. being free of outside control.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

You are right about that, being a city-state doesn't prevent from becoming an empire. But I think that it's highly unlikely that multiple city-states would form an empire together, especially if they are so different to each other as Athens and Sparta. They could only when one rules over the other as a dominant power, like Rome ruled over Italia, and Athens over her Aegean empire of small cities.

[Watchman]

Fair enough - but what if they agreed to leave each other alone and concentrate on doing their own thing as a sort of confederation ? A sort of Ancient Greek Treaty of Tordesillas combined with a loose military alliance. A pipe dream IRL I know, but I'd say some corners will have to be cut anyway due to the limits placed by the game engine...

[Geoffrey S]

If diplomacy were more reliable in RTW (or even MTW2?) trade rights, alliance, attack my allies and military access would be great. But it isn't, and I guess the faction slots have better places to go.

[Zarax]

The only way within RTW engine limits would be using the old romans+senate system (oracle of delphi = senate or maybe sparta/rhodes), it would be interesting if anyone makes an alexandrian era mod out of EB...

[Cyclops]

Okay, here is my question.
Which of the factions in mainland Greece (a.k.a. The Makedonians, Epeirotes, and Koinon Hellenon) do you think has a superior unit line-up?

[snip]

I think that the Epeirotes would have a slight advantage in unit line-up. The Makedonians make a close second, and the Koinon Hellenon are the weakest of the three.

I haven't played Epiros at length. They are a somewhat elastic but quite defeatable opponent for the other two. My impression of their roster is it a powerful one at the top end but patchy and regional. They definitely have the best starting position: the threat of Rome is nothing compared to the advantage of having your 7 star general sitting on a Mumak at the gates of Pella on turn 1.

Makedon has a powerful roster from the bottom of the tree right to the top. Most factions have some gaps at some point. Maco's have useful core and regional units at almost every MIC level in every starting and adjacent city. Every direction they go they seem to get units they can use. There is very little "barracks browser dissapointment" for the Antigonids.

If anything their units get better at the top as it flowers into the classic Diadochi line-up. To my mind the Agrianes are the ninja-icing on the cake, but there are also lovely surprises like elite pike in Asia Minor and Hypasts in Thrace (IIRC).

The KH have a fingernail grip on Hellas and a healthy line-up of hoplites: healthy and stodgy like porrige. The foot-guards for the generals make them admirably suited to city defense but its a dull slog to win field battles at sandal pace.

The Maco's have the roster to win skirmishes, footslogs, hammer and anvil field battles, "Cannae" type defensive annhilations, seige assaults, basically they are equiped to win any sort of battle. Only HA armys would worry them in open battle, but their (VG Stamina) Prodromoi give them a chance.

Elephants make for positive results, and Epiros has some regionals to allow a flexible approach, against most opponents. They are better set up to win in 272, but that isn't a result of a superior roster.

KH start on the back foot, masking their skewed unit selection. Can they get Tarantine Cav? A few regional tidbits might accelerate expansion but they are a creeping menace at best. I reckon they are a beautifully represented "faction" and their unit roster represents a genuine challenge to an experienced player.

I enjoyed playing the KH a lot despite unhappy experiences fighting the (Polybian) Romans. Massive casualties from walking into pilae forced me into mandatory enslavement of conquered settlements.:whip:

[Gazius]

The Koinon Hellenon are also pretty screwed in position. They start off with three cities only. One of them has an army large enough to take it nearby, the other is undermanned, and the last one is an island which is making negative thousands of mnai.

I'd just like to point out that no city loses you money. Ever. That number is just a ratio to how much of their income goes towards supplying troops. In all actuality, that's probably the city making you the most money if you check the trade screen.

I like Epeiros myself for the faction goals. I never understood why Makedon's goals aren't the recreation of Alexander's empire.

[Watchman]

Probably because the Hindu Kush is bloody far away. :beam:

The game allocates army upkeep (and agent wages and sundry) by city size, doesn't it ? Since it's a lump sum deduction from your income anyway it doesn't have any practical effect as such, other than it looking mildly odd how your biggest settlement tends to hang around the red...

I find it useful for getting a "feel" of how your economy's doing from the campaign map, myself. You know that when the big places are on the positive you're doing damn well money-wise... :yes:

[Anastasios Helios]

Off topic I know, but how did the Eperiots recruit the mumakil in Eperios anyway. Was there a northern version of the African mumakil that ran wild in Eperios until their extinction at the hands of the Roman Gladitorial Games and Pyrrhos' unceasing wars? Or did he just recruit them from India or something?

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

Off topic I know, but how did the Eperiots recruit the mumakil in Eperios anyway. Was there a northern version of the African mumakil that ran wild in Eperios until their extinction at the hands of the Roman Gladitorial Games and Pyrrhos' unceasing wars? Or did he just recruit them from India or something?
Afaik it represents Pyrrhos aim to make an elephant breeding program, for constant supply of his army with those beasts.

[Spoofa]

this isnt lord of the rings mind you. :laugh4:

[Watchman]

...didn't he just get them from the, whichonewasitnow, Seleukids ? (As nicknames for them pachyderms go, I particularly like "hefalumps".)

[Cyclops]

...
I like Epeiros myself for the faction goals. I never understood why Makedon's goals aren't the recreation of Alexander's empire.

Maybe because Alexander's goals weren't Macedon's? He was a nut after all.

His dad seemed to be aiming for a more modest goal: dominate Hellas (III's and IV's south of Thessally, but control nevertheless), a deep buffer in the north and a nice scoop of Asia on the side. The Italian component is perhaps a little artificial, but it was part of "Greater Greece" and it leads to roman/Macedonian conflict.

Personally I think Phillip (the third was it? the one who fought the Romans c 200 BC) and Perseus had no aspirations beyond the Eastern shore of the Adriatic, but its certainly possible they wanted more.


this isnt lord of the rings mind you. :laugh4:

Oops my bad.


...didn't he just get them from the, whichonewasitnow, Seleukids ?

I believe there was "Elephant Inflation" after the Sandrocottus deal. Boy was he a salesman. "Look at this bull, barely 1000 miles on the clock, massive front end, huge trunk, seats 4 archers, gives 3 hours of battle to the gallon of beer..."

Expensive herds of indian Elephants left right and centre after that. Antiochus wins one lousy battle thanks the "these 18 beasts" and everybody has to have one.


(As nicknames for them pachyderms go, I particularly like "hefalumps".)

Oh you mean the "Hefalumpoi Thorakitai"? Weren't they wiped by the Bartix?

[Anastasios Helios]

Spartan spears can crush the mumakil anyday

[Watchman]

Nah. Itchy dwarves ate the bunch.
And there was great joy. ~:joker:

[Spoofa]

Great men tend to be a little nutty.

[Wolfman]

From watching these new strings of greek oriented movies coming out it seems that all greeks where nutty screaming lunatics (Leonidas, Alexander) who spoke with Irish accents (Gerard Butler, Colin Farrel).

[abou]

...didn't he just get them from the, whichonewasitnow, Seleukids ? (As nicknames for them pachyderms go, I particularly like "hefalumps".)
Yeah, it seems like the big three at the time (Antiochos, Ptolemaios, and Antigonos) gave him troops and supplies in the hopes of getting rid of him and keeping him occupied elsewhere because, you know, Pyrrhos had this problem of severely pissing off everyone he came into contact with.

[Watchman]

From watching these new strings of greek oriented movies coming out it seems that all greeks where nutty screaming lunatics (Leonidas, Alexander) who spoke with Irish accents (Gerard Butler, Colin Farrel).Not to forget surprisingly fluent in English.


Yeah, it seems like the big three at the time (Antiochos, Ptolemaios, and Antigonos) gave him troops and supplies in the hopes of getting rid of him and keeping him occupied elsewhere because, you know, Pyrrhos had this problem of severely pissing off everyone he came into contact with.A somewhat difficult personality I take it ?

[Kampfkrebs]

Oh you mean the "Hefalumpoi Thorakitai"? Weren't they wiped by the Bartix?

Yes, they were wiped out by a combined forces mission of the 1st Armored Bartixian Royal Guards "URANOZZ" and the 1337th Light Bartixian Battle Ninja Corps "DETHRAYZ"

[Kurulham]

Hefalumpoi Thorakitai

Just spewed coffee all over my desk. That phrase is genius.

As KH I have been besieged by Antigonos in Athens, but if I move the sphendonetai from Sparta to Athens he'll go away. Leaves me free to take Crete on turn 2 with my FL.