Naval Problem

[DoJo MoJo I]

Playing Egypt 1263AD, at War with the Byzantines.

They have one ship in the waters outside the Province of Egypt. I have been attacking with 4 Baggala`s for over 8 turns, I get the " Do you want to attack...etc" screen and say yes but no battle ever occurs. Naval Attacks work fine in other Seas, with the same type ships both attacker/defender.

BTW: I have a better Naval Leader rating then the defender here as well.

This is not too good since it has cut off all Trade income from Spain and the Western Empire up to England and I`ve gone from a profit to a loss.

Any Ideas or is it a B..

TIA



[This message has been edited by DoJo MoJo I (edited 08-24-2002).]

[DarknScaly]

its a bug matey - thought that had been fixed for final.

And its a right pain in the arse...as "that one ship" can hop back and forth from one sea area to another ad infinitum.

You are actually attacking just fine - its just the ship is running away to another sea area. Where you have two such ships they are simply swapping sea areas - so at the start of a new turn it looks like nothing has happened.

I know that CA thought they'd fixed this - obviously not eh ;-/


edit: oh btw: one possible "workaround" for this is to use a ship to attack them that is capable of loosing - this way the ship sometimes stays to fight. Daft, i know, but ive got it to work, eventually. Try attacking with just one Baggala or make a ship of the same type (speed,attack etc) as the one you are trying to kill.

And the other thing is to take out the faction that owns the ship. Both are not particularly great workarounds though. Something for the patch.

[This message has been edited by DarknScaly (edited 08-24-2002).]

[This message has been edited by DarknScaly (edited 08-24-2002).]

[Target]

If the ship you're attacking is faster than your own ship, there's a 50/50 chance that your target will get away before the fight happens.

There are ways around it, like DarknScaly says. If you split your fleet up into four fleets of one ship, you'll get four chances to attack (though, obviously, you're more likely to lose with only 1 ship instead of 4). You could also try upgrading your shipyards and build faster ships.

------------------
Quote MagyarKhans Cham:
i even suspect Target is coming here to hype things up.[/QUOTE]

[DarknScaly]

Target.

I had "confirmed" there was a bug somewhere in this, it was where a same speed ship was consistently escaping to the nearby sea area and literally "couldn't be caught".

Was that actually a "bug" or was it just the 50/50 escape chance throwing some darn good dice?

Ive always managed to work around it with multiple attacks but it once took me 57 turns to kill just one ship (it escaped every time even against faster ships)....which was what had been "confirmed" as a bug.

Do you know if this was the case or if its to be looked at in the patch?

[DoJo MoJo I]

Quote Originally posted by Target:
If the ship you're attacking is faster than your own ship, there's a 50/50 chance that your target will get away before the fight happens.

There are ways around it, like DarknScaly says. If you split your fleet up into four fleets of one ship, you'll get four chances to attack (though, obviously, you're more likely to lose with only 1 ship instead of 4). You could also try upgrading your shipyards and build faster ships.

[/QUOTE]

Just tried that 2 times, no workee. That`s 10 times there was no result just here. I`m not sure how long it will take to get that class ship. That`s not a reasonable workaround IMO anyway.

Meanwhile back at Empire HQ:

1: All other ship attacks at 1:1 or 2:1 against that class ship in other areas are producing reasonable wins/losses with a 50/50 odds factor.

2: The loss of income is killing me, I can rebuild some ships, and in fact have enough now to replace losses, but I cannot sustain 57 attacks ( that`s gotta be a bug, those are unbelievable odds to be programmed occurances ) against a ship blocking the major trade route in that area, I`m going broke. Let me repeat this: My Empire is going Broke here.

Most income for an Egypt/Almohad Empire is trade by Sea.....if it also happens in other Sea Zones... well it`s a _Game Killer_ no matter who you play.

I am very unhappy here investing 8 hours in my Campaign Game.

You guys need to Patch _really quick._

Also, let me say the fact that your talking " "workarounds " and maybe it`s just "strange odds" happening instead of admitting it`s a MAJOR GAME STOPPING BUG in the Campaign Game and will be patched real soon is NOT encouraging.

I am ticked off here.

I have 3 days left to return the Game to the store, and I look forward to your response on this.


[This message has been edited by DoJo MoJo I (edited 08-24-2002).]

[This message has been edited by DoJo MoJo I (edited 08-24-2002).]

[Lord Aeon]

"If you don't respond to my post i am returning this game!!"

I can set up a play date for you and my son if you want... he likes G.I. Joes and Dragonball Z.

------------------
"You have offended my family, and you have offended a Shaolin temple."

[DoJo MoJo I]

Quote Originally posted by Lord Aeon:
"If you don't respond to my post i am returning this game!!"

I can set up a play date for you and my son if you want... he likes G.I. Joes and Dragonball Z.

[/QUOTE]

Say Fan Boy, Not only was that question not directed at you but I didn`t say that at all, try reading my post before you make a smart ass 12 year old remark.

I just put 8 hours into this thing, because of the Naval BUG GAME OVER..

I want to know if they intend to fix a Campaign Game killing Bug or just want to pretend it`s not there or we should use useless workarounds...

[Yager]

It doesn't sound exactly like a /game stopping/ bug but it is a problem. Send your armies out, fight a little, gain some land markets and farms.

You do realize the irony of what you just said though right? Saying he is making 12 year old remarks in reponse to him saying you are making 12 year old remarks? Honestly, people get tired of veiled threats for something like this. They really want you buisness and they'll do everything they can to get it fixed, but it won't be fixed in a day or even a week. They probably have bigger fish to fry.

They won't leave it, nor will they immediatly start digging in on this problem. More than likely you are going to have to decide if you are going to have a little faith, or you are going to pack it up and send it back.

[NagatsukaShumi]

Mojo, I'd suggest concentrating on expanding using the land and ignore the boat battle, simply place boats on the ocean part next to your land and leave them to protect your lands. Of coarse because I don't have this game I cannot estimate the annoyance of this bug or the true importance of using ships.

[DoJo MoJo I]

Quote Originally posted by Yager:
It doesn't sound exactly like a /game stopping/ bug but it is a problem. Send your armies out, fight a little, gain some land markets and farms.

You do realize the irony of what you just said though right? Saying he is making 12 year old remarks in reponse to him saying you are making 12 year old remarks? Honestly, people get tired of veiled threats for something like this. They really want you buisness and they'll do everything they can to get it fixed, but it won't be fixed in a day or even a week. They probably have bigger fish to fry.

They won't leave it, nor will they immediatly start digging in on this problem. More than likely you are going to have to decide if you are going to have a little faith, or you are going to pack it up and send it back.[/QUOTE]

Ok, let me say that you are right, _I_ was wrong in saying the 12 year old thing in response to a obvious insult....Bad Form on my part.

Now, to the question, I want to play the Game and support CA, as well as learn from you guys,in this Forum and other Forums.

War game /Strat Game forums are folding everywhere, this is a great resource.

Here`s the Thing tho, I am not a kid either in years or emotions.

I have playtested and worked with other publishers, HPS Sims & Microprose among others over the years, so when I say this is a very serious Game Play issue I am being accurate.

I had faith in Falcon IV. I had it in Harpoon III. I had it in several others where the Developers always had workarounds, other ways to play, other fish to fry....guess what, they never fixed the Game.

I realize buying a Game as soon as issued is an act of faith fore NO Game is problem free, so I voted to support CA, and their intentions to deal with this stuff with my $$$. I know their will be Patches.

All I would like to hear, ( and when Campaign Game playing other people start asking the same question on the Naval Bug here or on other Forums, and they will
,believe me, because it`s a Game Stopper since it kills your income which is what keeps the Empire going...) CA will have to address it. Why not do it sooner...

I just want to know if they view it as a problem that will be fixed. Then I will have trust and wait for them.

Why is asking for their response on this unreasonable ?

[DoJo MoJo I]

Quote Originally posted by NagatsukaShumi:
Mojo, I'd suggest concentrating on expanding using the land and ignore the boat battle, simply place boats on the ocean part next to your land and leave them to protect your lands. Of coarse because I don't have this game I cannot estimate the annoyance of this bug or the true importance of using ships.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the good advice, let me just say that IMHO , and with just very little Game Time I doubt that you can "win" within the Game Time Frame as a _Mediterranean Power_ without Sea Trade....which is really a nice feature which I hope can be made to work.

I doubt you can do it with just Farms and land trade.

[NagatsukaShumi]

Hmmmm, well the best thing is to trade with the clans nearby and ignore the ones that are far away, of coarse when I get the game I can give a better tactic.

[Target]

Dojo, we'll check it out and try and get a fix in for the patch if it turns out to be a problem.

------------------
Quote MagyarKhans Cham:
i even suspect Target is coming here to hype things up.[/QUOTE]

[andrewt]

Quote Originally posted by NagatsukaShumi:
Mojo, I'd suggest concentrating on expanding using the land and ignore the boat battle, simply place boats on the ocean part next to your land and leave them to protect your lands. Of coarse because I don't have this game I cannot estimate the annoyance of this bug or the true importance of using ships.[/QUOTE]

Not feasible. I have around 30k in revenues with around 11k in support expenses for a yearly profit of around 18k. If my trade route gets cut off at a critical juncture, my profit might drop to only a few thousand. Farmland gets you only so little even with 4 acumen governors (5 or higher is extremely rare), very high taxes and the upgrades. You rarely get more than 500 even with the 80% upgrade which is the highest. In contrast, provinces with 2 trade goods and a level 2 merchant can net you over 1000. Even gold mine complexes only gets arond 400. My highest single province income from farmland is probably around 600. My highest singe province income from trade is around 2,300.

I still haven't experienced the problems he had, however. The Italians declared war on me in the seas and reduced my profits to 3k. Now that I've destroyed all their ships, my income is now 18k. If they make peace with me, that might jump to more than 20k, more if I didn't conquer 2 port provinces they have.

I'm only talking about merchant income here. If another faction has ships near a port of yours and has a trading port, you could also get port income, which I don't have.

[DrNo]

Dojo Mojo I, I am sure your feedback and Target's response will lead to a relatively quick fix if it is a bug:
To me it sounds like the calculation of a ship being able to escape combat is actually being bypassed, but there is just the possibility of some extreme random calc flukes. It is reasonable to assume that a few people will have this extreme bad luck out of the thousands that will play the game.
e.g.
DnS Quote:
'Ive always managed to work around it with multiple attacks but it once took me 57 turns to kill just one ship (it escaped every time even against faster ships)....which was what had been "confirmed" as a bug.'


If it isn't a bug then I suggest that a feature is implemented that if ship swopping is occuring, that if you don't get to attack the ship moving out, you attack the ship moving in!
Would seem wholly reasonable to me, what does everyone else think?

[NagatsukaShumi]

Well like I said I can give a better tactic when it's released over here.

[DarknScaly]

Well dont forget guys that you WILL ALWAYS eventually lose your trade income anyway.
The end game is a challenge of paring down your outgoings to match your income and whatever cash float you have, until you can conquer everywhere.

That part of it designed and spot on working fine.

As mentioned elsewhere the fact that both you AND the AI can use just one ship to blocakade multiple routes is good.

You can also use DEEP WATER ships to bypass most single-ship blockades and relegate it to blocking a single port or such.

All it takes is a little alteral thinking and strategy.

Certainly isnt a game killer.

[DoJo MoJo I]

Quote Originally posted by Target:
Dojo, we'll check it out and try and get a fix in for the patch if it turns out to be a problem.

[/QUOTE]

Thanks, that all anyone can want, I`ll hang in there because the Game is excellent with no other obivious problems.

FWIW; I used the 4 seperate ship attacks on the problem ship, after 6 turns they killed it,( thats 18 turns to get just a battle result ) However 3 turns later it was back and it took 7 turns to kill it in the same way.

It really is a problem here because it only seems to be happening in the Key Egypt/Nile Valley Sea hex, no probs elsewhere with Naval Battles in many other Sea Hexs working ..I`m at the point with -1100 income from + 12,000 and had to disband land units to build ships, all building has now stopped.

[DarknScaly]

Mojo - YES it is a problem in itself - but the results of it - the blockade, are intentional.

The fact that you struggle when trade is blockaded is spot on. You'll be in the same situation without blockades but nobody to trade with.

That element is just part of the gameplay.

[Funky Phantom]

Build up your farmland\acquire some provinces with good farmland and build it up, after all, like DD says, you cant rely on trade to keep you going forever as you will eventually have no allies to trade with and will need your income from other sources...

[DoJo MoJo I]

Quote Originally posted by DarknScaly:
Mojo - YES it is a problem in itself - but the results of it - the blockade, are intentional.

The fact that you struggle when trade is blockaded is spot on. You'll be in the same situation without blockades but nobody to trade with.

That element is just part of the gameplay.[/QUOTE]

Thanks ! Your absolutely right, it is a good Game feature because you must pay attention to the relationships you point out, no jumping into wars here.

Also folks will see that this Game is much more complicated and rich in the Empire Building/Trade/area then Shogun and even Darkmore ( sp ? ) Dragons excellent walkthroughs indicate..it really is a totally New Game.

However may I point out that by that time your lost Naval Trade will be replaced by the trade from Provinces you have ( hopefully ) captured.

I think andrewT`s detailed post on trade upthread really gets to the point of the issue, i.e. what happens if the Naval Glitch gets you in a Key Sea hex..there is no way to recover from even 20+ years of lost Sea Trade...and move ahead in the overall game IMHO



[This message has been edited by DoJo MoJo I (edited 08-25-2002).]

[DarknScaly]

yup - that can be problematic - although it really does depends on what faction you are and "where" it happens.

When i had that 57 year horror it was playing as the english and a byzantine ship up in the irish sea... (id "chased it out" of the english channel).. so for that time it bascicallys topped Ireland earnning income but thats about it.

PLUS i had deep-sea ships - so you are far less sensitive to blockades of a single sea area.

In most cases a fast ship is all you need to sink these little buggers, its only rare that they keep escaping but it IS a concern.

Having said all of that:

Im not sure that folks ahve realised just how much you "can" earn from farm income. There are provinces which will earn you well over 1000 florins a year from farmland and that can be boosted a lot by using high acumen governors (which are pretty easy to "build" with titles and V&Vs)

Give the gme a little time to experiment with things and you will find a LOT of things that will help you out..remember folks like myself have been playing for 5-6 weeks now and have learnt a lot of little tricks by trial and error.

Experiment with things - its often quite surprising what you can do - and dont be afriad of cutting back on units and making peace for a few years.

VERY often i do this for a 20 year block to generate a "cash float" for when i go to war - just in caase i lose trade alliances/income.

An awful lot to success in MTW is "forward planning" - especially on expert. If youa ren't prepaired for the unexpeted you tend to lose. ;-)

[andrewt]

I have a plan. My big trading partners are the Byzantines and Egyptians. I'll conquer everybody else first before them. I'll use peasants to garrison provinces since they are cheap to build and support. Meanwhile, I'm hoarding cash and am now in the 100k area which will allow me 10 years even without revenues. I can sell buildings in the end anyway. I'm teching up and hoarding cash.

edit: I have around 11,500 income from farm. My most productive provinces already have 40%-80% upgrades, high acumen governors and high to very high taxes so very little growth there for me. My mine income is around 1,500 since they really nerfed them here. My support costs are 12,000 but they include many provinces with expensive garrisons so I'll replace those with cheaper support cost units once I start getting in a war again.

I fooled around with the troop stats and converted them to a nice excel spreadsheet. Peasants, clansmen, kerns, crossbowmen, pavisecrossbows, arbalests, pavisearbalests, arquebusiers, gallowglass, woodsman and nubianspearman only costs 3/8 florin per unit as their support cost so I'll garrison most provinces with these units.

[This message has been edited by andrewt (edited 08-25-2002).]

[Papewaio]

Do ships captains have V&V, and could they be effecting the odds markedly? Maybe you were against a Drake like captain?

[DoJo MoJo I]

Quote Originally posted by Papewaio:
Do ships captains have V&V, and could they be effecting the odds markedly? Maybe you were against a Drake like captain?[/QUOTE]

Yes, they have ratings, no it doesn`t matter, you still cannot get an attack in a reasonable number of turns even with a 3 star leader with 4 ships vs a 1 ship no star leader in one Hex....it works always as it should in other Hexs, but not in one Hex, I guess there`s a software term for that....

It`s a real problem with a large Empire that needs Sea Trade.

To their credit & honesty at least the Playtesters who post here admit it, guys who are promoting it at EZ Board are saying to folks questioning it all kinds of BS, "you don`t understand the Game", "it`s a feature," yada yada... I guess they think their "helping" CA somehow, really Sad.



[This message has been edited by DoJo MoJo I (edited 08-26-2002).]

[eat cold steel]

How about if the ships are the same speed or if your ship is faster you always catch them - no dice roll? We picked 50% to match the assassination roll, when your assassin moves into a region and the target moves out, there is a 50% chance of the assassin catching up, there were complains of target running away from assassins, so maybe that chance could be increased too.

[Ii Naomasa]

I've felt DoJo MoJo I's pain. One cannot believe how much the province of Egypt contributes to the overall coffers of the Egyptian faction...even when you own most of the east as far up as Russia and as far west as Constantinople.

Not paying attention to naval aspects, I let Egypt get blockaded, then invaded and sacked. The loss of income from this turned a campaign where I could have Europe conquered in fifty-to-sixty years into an Empire that was now open to attack because I couldn't maintain a profit. I'd hate to experience what it would be like to have fifty-seven years of this.

I'm wondering if this 'escape' issue is just in that sea zone, as I remember telling my ships to attack Almohad ships in that region a number of times with no results (hadn't thought about it because I was new to the game and didn't care much for the naval issues).

Come to think of it, I don't think I ever sunk a ship of theirs in that zone except for the time they attacked me. We both now have ships sitting there and despite nearly a century of on and off warfare, aside from that one incident, neither has had a naval engagement in that zone. So either the computer doesn't want to attack me or it's having problems as well.

I think I may have to start a new campaign as Egypt, just develop a small, easily defendable area and then attack any ship in the Egyptian sea zone and see what the percentage of success is there. Maybe there's something just goofy with the numbers in that zone.

[DaCount]

Well there is another big problem as well with the AI always gaining Naval supremecy.
I am playing this game as HRE and having kept my initial territory and expanded to the west. But the France have most of france/UK/Spain as a conquered. Now they have this huge fleet of ships all in these northern/western waters. Which effectivly means i can expect an invasion in EACH AND EVERY coast country, including scandinavia/baltic etc etc. Ofcourse i tried to attack their fleet, but i guess i tried over 100's attacks and i sunk perhaps 2 of his over 30 ships in totall, and this over a looooong period. Now i also get the cash problem as i need to conquer french and thus the coastal provinces, thus leaving huge armies everywhere to protect against invasions, thus costing me huge upkeep. Anyway i was lucky to have killed the french king (and he didn't have heirs), so his fleet disappeared, but without this i couldn't have won the battle against them. This is VERY frustrating, i'd rather loose over second ship in the attack (even if they are better), then not beeing able to attack them http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif..... Anyway i also think this is bit unplayable (ofcourse everything has it's work arounds but come on!). So my advice stay to inland provinces http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif. I will do at least, good i'm a HRE fan http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Anyway just my 2 cents on this issue, for the rest i love the game, and now where can i buy some more time.... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif