Egyptian merc question

[Brandy Blue]

My thanks to the Unknown Guy for information about Muslim standing armies and the use of mercinaries. Unfortunately the "Mercinaries and what you can do with them" thread took a different turn before I could ask follow up questions. So I am posting here.

As pointed out in the "Mercinaries ... etc." thread, the Byzantines used mercinaries as part of their standing army, and the game represents this by allowing the Byzantine player to raise Varangians and Bulgarian brigands as regular units instead of hiring them at an inn. After all, as Martok pointed out, they were part of the regular army for practical purposes.

Then the Unknown Guy told me that the Fatimids used lots of mercs in their standing army too. So can anyone satisfy my curiosity and tell me which regular Egyptian units (if any) represent those mercs. I really should do my own research, I guess, :book: but if anyone happens to know anyway it would save me a lot of time. :2thumbsup:

Also, did the Almoads have a standing army with a significant number of mercinaries? If so, which units would represent them?

[Martok]

Somewhat to my shame, I'm unable to answer the question myself. For as much as the Eggies are one of my favorite factions to play, I confess I know little about their actual history, particularly in regards to their military structure & organization.

To be honest, Brandy Blue, you might have better luck asking this question in the Monastery (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=16). (Or if you like, I can move this thread there instead.) Either way, I'm rather curious myself now as to what the answer is. :book:

[Brandy Blue]

Thanks for the offer to help, Martok, but I would rather you did not move the thread. I rephrased the question and posted it in the monestary. If you think it is not appropriate to have it posted here as well, go ahead and delete this thread.

[Martok]

Nah, we'll leave it up. It's very possible that some of our fellow denizens here in the Main Hall might be able to shed some light on this question. :yes:

[caravel]

The "Egyptians" in the game are a generic faction roughly covering the Fatimids, Ayyubids and Mamluks. Many of the units are ahistorical and their faction assignment is rather questionable. If you're talking mercenaries, I'm definitely no expert but a more obvious example would be the Bedouin tribesmen represented in the game by the "Bedouin Camel Warriors", these were in no shape or form a standing army of any kind.

With regards to actual mercenaries in the game, they are better off modded out IMHO, as the AI cannot make use of them and they do imbalance and cheapen gameplay somewhat. Mercenaries are better represented by the normal system of recruitment.

[Sensei Warrior]

Brandy How are you doing with getting an answer? Any luck in the Monastary? I am woefully ignorant on the subject at hand, but feel partially responsible. I think I was the one who steered the topic off in a different direction before you had the chance to chime in.

I just figured I'd pop in and see how you were coming along.

[Brandy Blue]

Could be argued that you steered the discussion back on topic. So I don't think you are "responsible" for anything, except maybe rescuing a thread from a digresssion.

Anyway, the monestary consensus is as follows:

1: The legal distinction between a mercinary and a member of a national army did not emerge until Napoleonic times.

2: Therefore, if we use the word mercinary with reference to medieveal troops, it would mean professional troops who receive pay.

3: So, if one must ask the question, "Which Egyptian units are mercinaries?" the only way to make a meaningful distinction is to look at the unit information scrolls. If the unit is foreign, you can consider it a mercinary part of the standing army. Admittedly, even the Egyptian troops could be considered mercinaries, so long as they are paid and professional, but there's no point in making a distinction if you are going to count everyone as a mercinary.

[Martok]

Brandy Blue has stated it quite succinctly (I've been following that thread in the Monastery as well). Aside from those in a noble's household guard along with the men called up in the feudal levies, most other troops could technically be considered to be mercenaries, in that they were professional soldiers who worked for pay.

Now if I'm wrong on this, please correct me; but last I knew, the Fatamids (and later, the Abayyids and Mamluks) didn't really have a feudal levy system like that of western & central Europe. So by strict definition, a large percentage of their armies would have been made up of mercenaries. Granted, a good number of them could probably still be considered regular army forces for all intents and purposes (since many were at the command of the Caliph). They were still being paid for their services, though, as opposed to being vassals in service/thrall to the Caliphate.

[Sensei Warrior]

Well thank you, I think. I really wanted to be a thread derailer, it gives Martok something to do ~;) .

So if I got it right, off the top of my head (and a peek at the Monastary thread :beam: ) a couple of would be mercenary units would be:

Bedouin Camel Warrior: These units would have been made up of Bedouin tribes that really had a leadership strata outside the 'Egyptian' leadership. They would have considered themselves a separate entity that may or may not have been allied to the Egyptians.

Nubian Spearmen: Wasn't there a country named Nubia at one point that was South of Egypt. They must be considered a separate entity or they would be called 'Egyptian' Spearmen or some deritivation there of.

Nizaris: Someone mentioned that was a general term for various tribes, but then tribes have there own leadership, so wouldn't considered themselves 'Egyptians' and their pay would be 'mercenary' as well.

Some of the ones that wouldn't be Mercenary units are:

Any generalized non-specific unit, such as Naptha Thrower.

Any Ghulam or Mamluk unit since these guys were either part of the Egyptian ruling class or slaves thereof, depending on Era and whatnot.

Course I don't have a roster list in front of me so I might have overlooked a few. In any event, if we use Mercenary by the definition of Foreign troops who recieved pay for soldiery, then did I hit the above partial list right? Or have I made a mess of things?

[Brandy Blue]

Sounds about right to me, more or less. The region known as Nubia is south of Egypt, and Makuria was the most important kingdom there, if my memory is correct. Since they were Christians, its anyones guess what they are doing in the Egyptian army. I think it has been suggested that these units are made up of slaves, but I don't remember the thread. So I don't really know if the Nubians are mercinaries or what exactly.

Personally, I see no reason why bodyguard units shouldn't be counted as mercinaries. The Varangian guards were bodyguards (though they don't function as such in the game) and are normally considered mercinaries.

But that's just my two cents. As far as I can see, your interpretation is about as good as any.

[caravel]

Nubian Spearmen: Wasn't there a country named Nubia at one point that was South of Egypt. They must be considered a separate entity or they would be called 'Egyptian' Spearmen or some deritivation there of.

Nizaris: Someone mentioned that was a general term for various tribes, but then tribes have there own leadership, so wouldn't considered themselves 'Egyptians' and their pay would be 'mercenary' as well.
Nubian Spearmen were supposed to represent those pressed into service IIRC. Nizaris are in fact the same as "Hashishin", so they wouldn't have been mercenaries either.

[Sensei Warrior]

Leave it to Caravel to poke holes in my theories with history ~;).

[Martok]

Personally, I see no reason why bodyguard units shouldn't be counted as mercinaries. The Varangian guards were bodyguards (though they don't function as such in the game) and are normally considered mercinaries.
Actually, when it comes to mercenaries serving as royal bodyguards in the medieval period, my understanding is that the phenomenon was fairly rare -- thus, the Varangians were the exception rather than the rule. Not that they're the only example -- I believe a few of the Spanish Moorish princes employed mercs as personal guards, for instance -- but I don't believe the practice was that common overall. (Note that I'm referring to the medieval period only.)

[caravel]

Bodyguards in the game, for muslim units, are either Ghulam Bodyguards or Sipahis of the Porte, the latter certainly not being mercenaries and the former being slaves (Ghulam = slave).

The Nubian Spearmen are certainly there to represent Makurian slaves. Slave armies were common during the period (Mamluks, Janissaries etc). The fact that they were Christian is also rather key as fellow muslims could not be enslaved.

[macsen rufus]

From what I've found, Nizaris must be one of the least supportable units for Egypt in MTW. Firstly Nizaris (historically) were an Ismaili sect or faction, having emerged in Egypt in 1094 in conflict with the al-Mustalim in a succession dispute for Imam. However, Nizar was assassinated, so the Nizaris fled Egypt and moved to Iran and Syria, famously setting up home in Alamut and being referred to as "hashishin" (despite the common tradition that this was due to Hasan-i-Sabah using hashish to drug his devotees, it was more a case of "they're such nutters they must be on drugs"), and were wiped out ultimately by the Mongols in 1256. In none of this history is it at all likely they would ever fight for the Egyptian "state".

[/pedantry]