Run through rather than attack?

[Ramses II CP]

I'm fighting the Timurids in my AAR, and I'm noticing something odd. Sometimes when I order my men to run through the formation of an enemy unit they cause a lot more casualties (To the enemy) than if I just click on them. For example I had my general execute a good charge against a Sabadar militia company (Normal units, 60 men) and they got 28 kills in the charge. I then ordered them to move through the rest of the Sabadar to escape the Timurid's counter charge, and by the time all my guards were free there were only 8 men left in the enemy unit. If I'd left them in there fighting, it would've taken a long time for them to finish that unit off, but by rushing through them it was accomplished in seconds.

Having noticed this in that battle, I then tried to reproduce it in a test battle (In the same campaign, not with custom battles). With fair consistency I saw the enemy take more losses while my cavalry were moving ('marching') than while they were standing still and 'fighting.' Sometimes, if the units were not intermixed the two just split up easily with few losses to either side, but if some of the formation got hung up they appeared to do a lot of killing on the way to getting clear.

Taking a look at a cavalry battle close up, there's a lot of loitering going on, where men shuffle their horses back and forth without swinging a sword, even if they look like they're in range. When they do get in position, they flail away like mad. Sometimes, and only sometimes, when they're riding through the enemy they get into that flailing away mode, and just bash in heads left and right.

Anyone else noticed this? Am I retreading old ground?

:egypt:

[Per Ole]

yeah, very effective. The AI uses this tactic when attacking your cities and castles; they break through your gate/wall and storm inn with everything they have, not attack just rush in. This annihalates your units and I've found out the only thing that works to stop it is stakes right behind the gate (pikes are just pushed aside)

[ReiseReise]

I have found that as well. It works especially well with cavalry as they have an extra fast sword animation while they are riding through enemies and get off 3 or 4 hits to their normal 1. It also works well on the walls when your men are just sitting there slugging it out 5 or 6 units at a time exhausting themselves. Order them to run through the enemy, then attack.
I only use this when my unit is stronger than their foe, otherwise a lot of them get killed while they are moving into position.

[TheImp]

yeah, very effective. The AI uses this tactic when attacking your cities and castles; they break through your gate/wall and storm inn with everything they have, not attack just rush in. This annihalates your units and I've found out the only thing that works to stop it is stakes right behind the gate (pikes are just pushed aside)

I would rather say it's the opposite, the AI breaks its neck on your best units waiting at the gate. As i know the AI always does that, i put 3 units of my best heavy infantry on "defensive" stance with one or two heavy cavalry units waiting behind.

Even when the AI is 4 to 1, it always loses this way. Never lost any defensive siege on VH.

Stupid AI.

[Per Ole]

I do this as well, but they always break through (loads of cav) and my guys then get crushed. The way I normally do is wait until the ram's at the gate. If I manage to lit on fire before it reaches, I keep my position. If it reaches the gate I pull my troops back to the city square and block off the main roads

[TheImp]

The trick when doing this is to wait until the first enemy unit is routing, then u double click on it with your heavy cavalry units selected and as they intend to follow their target, they just crush all the enemies under the gate.

[alpaca]

Yeah it works. If you run through, the simple fact that you'll have a huge number of soldiers attacking each individual enemy means that you kill much faster than they do. Stopping you at the gate doesn't work very well I found.

However, you're very susceptible to missile fire, especially from artillery pieces, if you do it.
I frequently use it in field battles, too, to fight against the anti-blob code which makes your unit spread out after it hits the enemy.

[TheLastPrivate]

This is better offensively but it leaves the side/back of your units (especially cavalry) extremely vulnerable.

I ran thru a unit of town militia and somewhere in the fray my general died - something that wouldn't have happened if it was just a frontal attack.

[Brutal DLX]

It gets used also in MP, a bit like the old swiping exploit back in MTW. I do think it's an exploit and am not using it intentionally in SP, but in MP you will have to use it, otherwise you will lose. I hope this will get fixed one day (if it's fixable at all).

[uruk-hai]

yes it may make them better killers but don't you think in sp we should give the ai a break and not do it to them?beside woulded it be easyer to just run then charge at them agian?

[Rhedd]

I've never noticed this being terribly effective with infantry, but with cavalry there's a good reason for it to work, and work well.

Cavalry can't attack to the front, so it's very easy to get a situation where a neat rank of cavalrymen are just sitting there, horse-nose-to-enemy, doing nothing.

Mounted units can, however, attack while moving (the rider attacks, the mount moves), so if they charge through an enemy, the knights swing at the enemies that pass to their sides, and tear them up.

Meanwhile, the infantry that would've taken potshots at the noses of the poor, stuck horses, are busy shuffling around and turning to face the running knights, and get slaughtered.

It can be quite dangerous against the wrong enemies, but it works especially well in a cavalry-vs-cavalry situation, where it's easy for both sides to get stuck nose-to-nose and do nothing.

[alpaca]

I've never noticed this being terribly effective with infantry, but with cavalry there's a good reason for it to work, and work well.

Cavalry can't attack to the front, so it's very easy to get a situation where a neat rank of cavalrymen are just sitting there, horse-nose-to-enemy, doing nothing.

Mounted units can, however, attack while moving (the rider attacks, the mount moves), so if they charge through an enemy, the knights swing at the enemies that pass to their sides, and tear them up.

Meanwhile, the infantry that would've taken potshots at the noses of the poor, stuck horses, are busy shuffling around and turning to face the running knights, and get slaughtered.

It can be quite dangerous against the wrong enemies, but it works especially well in a cavalry-vs-cavalry situation, where it's easy for both sides to get stuck nose-to-nose and do nothing.
The reason why it works with infantry is that the individual soldier will stop to fight when he meets an enemy (usually) - the advantage is that they're in a tight bunch though and not spread out thinly.

[Rhedd]

The reason why it works with infantry is that the individual soldier will stop to fight when he meets an enemy (usually) - the advantage is that they're in a tight bunch though and not spread out thinly.Interesting.

I'll have to test it out and see how it goes.

[antisocialmunky]

Yes, this works very well. They cause higher casualties but may take higher casualties in exchange.

[Shahed]

I'm fighting the Timurids in my AAR, and I'm noticing something odd. Sometimes when I order my men to run through the formation of an enemy unit they cause a lot more casualties (To the enemy) than if I just click on them. For example I had my general execute a good charge against a Sabadar militia company (Normal units, 60 men) and they got 28 kills in the charge. I then ordered them to move through the rest of the Sabadar to escape the Timurid's counter charge, and by the time all my guards were free there were only 8 men left in the enemy unit. If I'd left them in there fighting, it would've taken a long time for them to finish that unit off, but by rushing through them it was accomplished in seconds.

Having noticed this in that battle, I then tried to reproduce it in a test battle (In the same campaign, not with custom battles). With fair consistency I saw the enemy take more losses while my cavalry were moving ('marching') than while they were standing still and 'fighting.' Sometimes, if the units were not intermixed the two just split up easily with few losses to either side, but if some of the formation got hung up they appeared to do a lot of killing on the way to getting clear.

Taking a look at a cavalry battle close up, there's a lot of loitering going on, where men shuffle their horses back and forth without swinging a sword, even if they look like they're in range. When they do get in position, they flail away like mad. Sometimes, and only sometimes, when they're riding through the enemy they get into that flailing away mode, and just bash in heads left and right.

Anyone else noticed this? Am I retreading old ground?

:egypt:

Where is your AAR and does it have screeeeeenies ?

[Dead Guy]

The AI actually did this to me once, killing off about 25 norse war clerics in a matter of seconds with about equal numbers of knights. Quite annoying.

[alpaca]

The AI actually did this to me once, killing off about 25 norse war clerics in a matter of seconds with about equal numbers of knights. Quite annoying.
Hehe yeah it's almost as bad as the "stinkbreath cloud of death" when charging.

Another thing why it's so much better is that you avoid the annoying charges that only really involve the first rank of soldiers when you just click behind your enemy.
You don't get the charge bonus but that's half-useless for infantry anyways.

[Ramses II CP]

The whole thing can be found here, lots of screenshots. Probably too many, as some people have complained and it grinds my older machines pretty hard too:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=88090

The link in my sig is to a version which is being put up at GamerTales where it loads in page breaks and is much more friendly to view, but is quite far behind the current story.

http://www.gamertales.com/M2TWtales/vikingmigration.php

Enjoy!

:egypt: