Crusade Question

[Nobunaga0611]

I'm trying to stop a German crusade into one of my provinces, (Palestine, wasn't my province when the crusade started, Germans are one of my allies) but when the crusade gets to Constantinople, I decide to not let it pass. Now, the crusade has about 300 more men than I have in constantinople, but everytime, no matter how many men I add to the province (by playing a save a few years earlier) my men seem to chain-route. And I mean every time. I have played back a battle in which my front line of H2H soldiers hit the front line ALMOST exactly at the same time. None were peasants. Two Militia units, but the rest were Byzantine Infantry, and Vangarian Guard. Before that, my Trebizond archers took out a good bit of at least 4 units. The crusade had some Teutonic Seargeants, some Order Foot Soldiers, and some Royal Knights (the generals unit, had 13 Knights). Other than that, only spearmen and and archerers.

Why is my army chain-routing? Are Teutonic Seargeants really that good?

[Lord Aeon]

Order Foot Soldiers for some reason are really good. PLaying as Egyptians, i got trounced by a Spanish crusade with almost the exact same makeup as e one you described. I noticed that those OFSs and the Royal Knights are pretty good units... not to mention they have high morale and very high valour (i think). They're hard to bet. In fact, the only time i've ever "defeated" a crusade was when the attacking force never got up the nerve to attack.

But i digress. You armies are routing because:

a) Byzantince infantry aren't all that great. I don't know what they have for morale or defense, but one of these is low, i'm almost sure of it (at work now, can't check),

b) I'm pretty sure that Order Foot Soldiers have the "irrisistable charge" trait, or the equivalent charge multiplier. However, i don't know how one would be able to check this, and

c) Maybe it has something to do with the "zeal" raing in your province, or the "piety" of your general, or some combination fo the two. I have no idea, however.

So i wrote all that to basically say that i don't know.

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"You have offended my family, and you have offended a Shaolin temple."

[This message has been edited by Lord Aeon (edited 08-27-2002).]

[andrewt]

Check your generals for command and bad vices and check your enemies' generals for command and virtues. Order foot soldiers are only slightly better than byzantine infantry and teutonic sergeants have worse morale and are slightly inferior to both kataphraktoi and pronoiai allagion. Teutonic knights are much better though so you might mean them.

Order foot soldiers
Charge:5
Melee:0
Defense:3
Armor:3
Honor:2

Byzantine infantry
Charge:3
Melee:2
Defense:3
Armor:3
Honor:0

Check for valor, too. Maybe his is much higher than yours.

[This message has been edited by andrewt (edited 08-27-2002).]

[Nobunaga0611]

Dunno how to check for valor, but I assume his is higher, since it was the Teutonic Seargeants (not Knights) that caused the most damage. And since it was a Catholic crusade against an Orthodox Christian province (with I believe 22 or 24% zeal) I don't believe this had an impact, although I could be wrong. He only had about 300 more soldiers than me, so this wasn't a factor either.

I think that the morale of the crusade was a lot better, since, whenever I've been backed in to a corner, I notice all the units have a tooltip or mouseover, whatever it is, to the effect of: 'Ready to fight as there is no retreat'. So I think this might have something to do with it. Just a thought though. If you don't agree then say so.

[andrewt]

Ok, I get it now. It's actually more realistic that way. If the army has nowhere to retreat to once it lost, i.e. attacking a province by sea or something like that, then they will all die after they lose the battle. They know this so they will fight to the death and not run away.

[Emp. Conralius]

can u train crusader units without launching a crusade?

[Kraxis]

andrewt next time let them through... it should bleed them quite a lot since you have low zeal, and will most likely not lose a lot of troops to the Crusade.

Personally I think that the Byzantine Infantry is better than the OFS. The OFS has a better charge, but not much the same with morale, but in combat they are like bad Naginatas while the Byz. are much more balanced.

[Nobunaga0611]

Quote Originally posted by Emp. Conralius:
can u train crusader units without launching a crusade?[/QUOTE]

Nope. You can't train units like Teutonic Knights, or Knights Templar, or all the other ones only associated with a Crusade. Because of this, its well worth launching a crusade, because, after it finishes, you've got a whole new army with some pretty good units for only about 1000 florins. Like DD said though, they lose their higher value later in the game when newer unit types catch up to the crusade units in terms of effectiveness.

[Kraxis]

So, you see, the bottom line is this:

Make your own Crusade, and do it EARLY!

[Lord Aeon]

That's not entirely true. When playing the Spanish, you have access to Knights of Santiago only after completing a successful crusade. Then if you have th right buildings in your province, you can train them normally.

I'm assuming this isn't the only unit that has this trait, although it might be.

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"You have offended my family, and you have offended a Shaolin temple."

[Emp. Conralius]

My favorite unit in the game is the Hospitaller Foot Knight...so I can only get them through crusades?