Hadramaut and Ubar

[Anastasios Helios]

I'm a total geek for Tolkien's mythology. Do any of you think that the names of "Umbar" and the land of Harad were based on these lands and cities in south Arabia. I know very little of these places...can anyone give me any info on the histories of Hadramaut and Ubar?

[Bootsiuv]

I'm also a fan of Tolkien, although I'm really not sure if these are the places he based these things on.

I think they're is a site, called Tolkiens dictionary or something like that(it's been at least a year since I've visited there) that would probably be able to tell you if they were based on these southern arabian places.

It was a very cool site, actually, describing nearly everything in the 100,000some years of Tolkiens fantasy history.

[pezhetairoi]

I'm not sure myself, but I've always thought these places were Arabic in origin, if not exactly traceable to those exact cities. Tolkien was knowledgeable, but I'm not too sure HOW knowledgeable about the era of Saba. I would have guessed he was inspired by Arabic Morocco, ie the Berbers who were the archetypical 'corsairs', and were probably the ones whom the name was first applied to. Corsairs of Umbar, after all. They were pirate raiders, and probably the most high-profile 'corsairs' in history.

[blitzkrieg80]

did you guys know Smaug (the dragon) is named after an Old English verb meaning "to squeeze into a tiny hole" :grin: Tolkein admits this in correspondance, he had quite the sense of humor

[Bootsiuv]

Well, I dug up the site I was referring to....

This is all that I could really find about Harad, more specifically near Harad (as neither far Harad, nor the peoples inhabiting it, were ever described in any great detail in any of Tolkien's works).




An indefinite region that lay to the south of Gondor and Mordor, beyond the River Harnen. Little is said of it in the histories of Middle-earth, except that the Men of that land conspired with those of Khand, and with the Wainriders, to overthrow Gondor in the time of King Ondoher. The Gondorians anticipated their strike, and Ondoher created a Southern Army to defend his land against them. That Southern Army, under the command of Eärnil, met the invading Men of Near Harad in South Ithilien, and defeated them completely.

Not really much there as to the exact sites this place could have represented, if any....

....and Umbar....




A cape in the far south of Middle-earth, long held by Black Númenóreans, but conquered by Gondor for a time during the Third Age.

Notes 1 The name appears to contain the word mbar, 'home' or 'dwelling-place', an element seen fairly frequently in place names like 'Brithombar' or 'Dimbar'. The 'u-' prefix is hard to decipher, but it would normally form a negative, so perhaps 'Umbar' simply means 'not home' or 'away from home' (to the Númenóreans or Gondorians, that is). However, there is no definite support for this theory in Tolkien's works.

Umbar is also known to be the Elvish word for 'fate'. This seems an odd source for a placename, and is probably mere coincidence, but it may possibly refer to the fateful landing of Ar-Pharazôn here in the year II 3261, which ultimately led to the Downfall of Númenor.

So it seems that, although this place sounds very similiar to Ubar, it may well have had other meanings (Such as meaning "not home" or it being the elvish word for 'fate' coinciding with the place which was the beginning of the end for Numenor (which, if you know anything about Tolkien history, was supposedly a nation unmatched in power and beauty before it was cast into the sea by the gods, which is suprisingly similar to the legend of Atlantis).

Tolkien was trying to create a british mythology which was as rich as greek mythology, so I think he pulled aspects from all parts of his world....real life, legends and myths, his own imagination, etc.

The site can be found here (http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/) if you're interested. It's quite good.:yes:

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

You would be surprised on how much of Tolkien's writings were based on historical peoples and events.

I don't know much of the details on Tolkien, though. If you ask over at the Fourth Age : Total War forum, I'd bet someone could tell you upon what, Tolkein based the Haradrim.

[Sygrod]

As a side note, in Swedish, a "Harad" used to be a geographical area, comprising a few parishes, but smaller than a bishopry (sp?). Tolkien was into Norse and other scandinavian languages, and may have liked the word.
"Gamling", one of the rohirrim, in Swedish means "old man".

[Bootsiuv]

Yes....I heard he pulled aspects from all kinds of different mythologies, including Greek and Roman, Scandinavian, and even far eastern.

One of the craziest things is that "tolkienists" or whatever sit there and debate and debate small things about a world which existed entirely in some dude's head. :dizzy2:

[Watchman]

Tolkien was a linguist by day job IIRC, and given the amount of influence Danish and Norse have had on English it's hardly surprising he had an interest in the Scandinavian languages.

[Anastasios Helios]

Thanks guys....

Tolkien = genius

[blitzkrieg80]

uhh, he TAUGHT Old English, so yeah I think he was a little bit into Germanic

[mcantu]

Has anyone read the new Children Of Hurin? I'm in the middle of it now and its a great story so far...

[Krusader]

Aren't the Elves in Tolkien based somewhat on Kalevala or is it some of their mythology?

[Watchman]

Heck no. Our folklore elves are more akin to hearth, river and forest spirits and the like (think animistic). Off the top of my head I'd guess he based his Elves off some of the more fey inhabitants of British mythology, say those Tuatha DeSomething guys and a more sociable version of the Fair Folk proper.

The Dwarves seem to have been ripped off Scandinavian and Germanic myth.

There's a story not unlike the Turin Turambar one in the Kalevala, but as both also rather resemble the tale of Oedipus in general tone and content odds are that's one of those pan-Eurasian all-stars favourite themes. There's been those bouncing around for several millenia after all.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Well, I dug up the site I was referring to....

This is all that I could really find about Harad, more specifically near Harad (as neither far Harad, nor the peoples inhabiting it, were ever described in any great detail in any of Tolkien's works).



Not really much there as to the exact sites this place could have represented, if any....

....and Umbar....



So it seems that, although this place sounds very similiar to Ubar, it may well have had other meanings (Such as meaning "not home" or it being the elvish word for 'fate' coinciding with the place which was the beginning of the end for Numenor (which, if you know anything about Tolkien history, was supposedly a nation unmatched in power and beauty before it was cast into the sea by the gods, which is suprisingly similar to the legend of Atlantis).

Tolkien was trying to create a british mythology which was as rich as greek mythology, so I think he pulled aspects from all parts of his world....real life, legends and myths, his own imagination, etc.

The site can be found here (http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/) if you're interested. It's quite good.:yes:

For starters, if you read the Silmarilion you'll realise that Numenor is Atlantis, it's made obvious at the end of the passage when Tolkien breaks down Numenor's later-day name which meant "The sunken lands" or some such in Elvish.

most of Tolkien's works come from Germanic and Finnish epic with a liberal smattering of other mythologies.

Found it: Atlalantë litterally "Downfallen" also Akallabêth or Mar-nu-Falmar.

[Bootsiuv]

Well, I haven't read the Silmarillion yet, but I was able to gleam that little atlantis tidbid simply by reading about Numenor. It's pretty obvious....the two legends are almost exactly the same.