Sword unit for KH

[fj62]

just wondering about why no upper level sword/assault infantry type unit was included in the KH roster. i think the lack a good assault infantry, especially compared to Rome, Karthage, AS, and Macedonia. don't get me wrong i love my spartan hoplites, but hypastists (sp?) are amazing and the epilekoi hoplitia dont cut it as assault infantry. however i realize historical accuracy and game balance are important.

maybe the could be added in the next build if others agree with me.

[Foot]

If they didn't have a prominent unit such as you are speaking of in history then they will not be getting it in EB.

Personally I love it this way. What would be the use of each faction having the same type of units? As KH doesn't have a high level assault troop then I would either go looking for one in a nearby province that might have them (thrace has some great assault troops), or change my tactics so one is not required.

Foot

[Watchman]

Don't the likes of Thorakitai pretty much fill the job anyway ?

[Kampfkrebs]

simply capture some makedon/thracian settlements and be happy with your agrinian assaul infantry, or pick the taxeis triballoi.

[Tellos Athenaios]

just wondering about why no upper level sword/assault infantry type unit was included in the KH roster. i think the lack a good assault infantry, especially compared to Rome, Karthage, AS, and Macedonia. don't get me wrong i love my spartan hoplites, but hypastists (sp?) are amazing and the epilekoi hoplitia dont cut it as assault infantry. however i realize historical accuracy and game balance are important.

maybe the could be added in the next build if others agree with me.

Oh, but you seem to forget that the KH is a typical Region based faction. It doesn't really have a standarized army; in fact each polis of the league maintained it's own army. Strikingly similar; still not standarized. (As in: every polis maintain about x hoplites + y... + z... etc.)

Also; I was under the impression Hoplitai make excellent assault infantry... ? 'sides the KH do have very, very good swordsmen: Peltastai; Iphikratous Hoplitai; Thorakitai Hoplitai...

[Watchman]

I'm pretty sure both the Peltastai and Iphicrateans can be regarded as average at best in this regard; methinks you're better off with Thureophoroi, Hoplitai and Thorakitai for assault infantry.

[NeoSpartan]

...or u can go to Galatia and buy some Gaestae (sp) mercs.

[Krusader]

Or wait for 1.0 which has Thraikioi Rhomphaiaphoroi :grin:

Actually I think the Thraikioi Peltastai can serve as assault infantry well enough. Can't remember stats but they got rhomphaias and those should thus confer AP.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

I've had some awful trouble facing peltasts attacking walls. With a little bit of experience and a blacksmith upgrade, those guys are cheap enough that they can cause some major problems.

[raenor]

Those thracian peltasts are deadly even in the hands of the AI. I've had many units mauled by them especially on walls.

[NeoSpartan]

The Thrakioi Peltastai is really good, thier AP properties can really do some damage heavier units.

[Tellos Athenaios]

I'm pretty sure both the Peltastai and Iphicrateans can be regarded as average at best in this regard; methinks you're better off with Thureophoroi, Hoplitai and Thorakitai for assault infantry.

Well, not in my experience that is... though I have had some practice using/countering Peltastai to the full. Anyhow: I mentioned those as examples of good swordsmen, which they are. (At least they will rip most light/medium infantry to pieces; and carve big chunks out of heavy infantry too. You only need to use them properly, that is.) They are not assault infantry; the example I gave of those are said Hoplitai. So... what are you disagreeing about then?

[Watchman]

It would seem to me that the Peltastai, being primarily skirmishers and light infantry, and the other two being primarily phalanx troops, might not necessarily be quite the optimal choice for the parts of siege assaults people usually want something definable as "assault infantry" for, ie. taking the walls and fighting through the breaches.

The likes of Thureophoroi and Hoplitai would seem to be rather better armoured than the Peltastai, and as non-phalanx troops better statted to the grind of cramped hand-to-hand combat that now tends to characterize these actions. Ditto for the Thorakitai.

That they don't use swords but rather spears hardly makes any difference, as the overhand spear has the exact same specs as the standard-issue sword the Hellenics favour.

Depends, of course, what exactly the opposition consists of and what troops happened to be along and available.

[russia almighty]

If I'm correct the chain mailed armored hoplites have a sword with AP and kick ass defense stats . There is your assault unit .

[Bellum]

Well I haven't played with KH yet, but after conquering Greece in a campaign awhile back, I found those shirtless sword guys in Thrace (whatever you call them) to be surprisingly effective.

EDIT: The mercenaries.

[Sdragon]

I happily throw Iphicrateans up against anything. They are valuable in phalanx mode but are just as good out of it. It's why I prefer them over the Macedonian phalanx. They can be out flanked and keep fighting and slaughter most enemies as assault troops as long as you don't throw them up against the very best. Plus since they are available as mercenaries any faction can have them. Of course the heavier version is far better and will keep fighting till the unit is almost completely destroyed. They are by far the most flexible infantry unit in the game.

[Zarax]

It would seem to me that the Peltastai, being primarily skirmishers and light infantry, and the other two being primarily phalanx troops, might not necessarily be quite the optimal choice for the parts of siege assaults people usually want something definable as "assault infantry" for, ie. taking the walls and fighting through the breaches.

The likes of Thureophoroi and Hoplitai would seem to be rather better armoured than the Peltastai, and as non-phalanx troops better statted to the grind of cramped hand-to-hand combat that now tends to characterize these actions. Ditto for the Thorakitai.

That they don't use swords but rather spears hardly makes any difference, as the overhand spear has the exact same specs as the standard-issue sword the Hellenics favour.

Depends, of course, what exactly the opposition consists of and what troops happened to be along and available.

There are a few mentions of greek assault troops but those are pretty much of wealthier nobles assaulting in a heavy hoplite panoply and a kopis.
Most likely the same guys that in the field act as medium or heavy cavalry in sieges had the equipment to do some heavy melee job.

[hoom]

I've had excellent experiences with Peltastai, even in assaults.
They're certainly not a Heavy unit but very definitely a Medium rather than the Light unit most seem to think they are.

I'm not sure if its actually a game stat but Peltasts seem to have a faster attack speed than a lot of units, allowing them to chop their way through much 'heavier' units.

You want to use a unit or two of proper Heavy troops (Hoplites) to take & hold but Peltasts can do a lot of the killing.
They take casualties but are broadly available & quite cheap so thats not too much of an issue.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Exactly; besides I must warn you that Peltastai were ranked among the Hoplitai back then. In other words: they were considered among the backbone of an army; as opposed to the supportive missile troops called Psiloi.

Anyhow in EB term those Peltastai are more of a heavy unit (hence it's name: Heavy Skirmisher) than a light one. (E.g. Pantodapoi.)

[madmatg]

Kamp- or anyone else that know this
how do the KH get agrinian assaul infantry? i thought i could only try my regions units? like in Epiros i took over their 2 largest starting cities and had their level 4 MIC but was only able to build my own factional units. Is it possible to get some of the enemies units or is the Agrinian a normal regional unit?

[Zarax]

Exactly; besides I must warn you that Peltastai were ranked among the Hoplitai back then. In other words: they were considered among the backbone of an army; as opposed to the supportive missile troops called Psiloi.

Anyhow in EB term those Peltastai are more of a heavy unit (hence it's name: Heavy Skirmisher) than a light one. (E.g. Pantodapoi.)

How insulting to historical accuracy would be to have a dismounted version of the hippeis xystophoroi acting as assault infantry (with shield and spearless of course)?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Thracian Peltasts are excellant assault soldiers, and are widely available as mercenaries.

[Tellos Athenaios]

How insulting to historical accuracy would be to have a dismounted version of the hippeis xystophoroi acting as assault infantry (with shield and spearless of course)?

Well, if you kept up with the previews you should know... :grin:

[Kampfkrebs]

Kamp- or anyone else that know this
how do the KH get agrinian assaul infantry? i thought i could only try my regions units? like in Epiros i took over their 2 largest starting cities and had their level 4 MIC but was only able to build my own factional units. Is it possible to get some of the enemies units or is the Agrinian a normal regional unit?

According to those full-of-pwnage tradecards, the agrinians are Epirus/Macedon only (yes, my bad, thought they were also availible for the KH).

But you can still take the Taxeis Triballoi, cause they are regionals.

[hoom]

they were considered among the backbone of an armyYeah, I found out they are pretty good when I tried using a couple of units spread thin as a missile soak/buffer first line & found that instead of just taking the edge off of enemy armies before hitting my main lines, most of the time they took out the bulk of the enemy by themselves :2thumbsup:

In my Epiros campaign, Tarentum has been almost entirely defended by Peltasts who not only fought off lots of Camillian legions but managed to push them back by a couple of towns.
Only in the last few turns I've been able to afford to send across enough heavier units to become the main force but the Peltasts turned the tide in my favour already.

[mAIOR]

If I'm not mistaken, if you wanted to become a Hypaspist, you'd be enlisted in the Peltastai for starters...


Cheers...

[abou]

If I'm not mistaken, if you wanted to become a Hypaspist, you'd be enlisted in the Peltastai for starters...


Cheers...
Maybe... depends on what Peltastai. Do you mean the elite phalangites or skirmishers?

[mAIOR]

Skirmishers I guess... They fight in a more similar way to the Hypaspists...


Cheers...

[abou]

Nope, most likely not unless they could somehow distinguish themselves.

[Ludens]

Skirmishers I guess... They fight in a more similar way to the Hypaspists...
The term peltast meant different things over the centuries. During the Persian wars, peltasts were the equivalent of akantistoi: farmers with a few javelins and a small shield. During the Pelleponesian war, the term started to be used for well-equiped, professional skirmishers, like those in EB. During the Hellenistic age, however, the term is also used to refer to an elite bodyguard or assault corps of the Hellenic kings.

What Abou is trying to say is that the Peltastai-requirement for joining the hystapistoi might not refer to what EB calls peltasts.