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View Full Version : Creative Assembly Grandgnus Review (taken from the .com)



Kraxis
08-28-2002, 03:22
I thought it would be fair for your guys to participate in our rolling discussion of his review.

Quote
Grandgnus Review Of Total War
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REVIEW OF Medieval: Total War


Sound: 85%

Graphics: 85%

Documentation: 20%

Tutorials: 60%

Fun Factor: 80%

Interface: 75%

OVERALL SCORE: 80%

My experience is based on having played a few hours a day since last Friday (August 23, 2002) through today (August 26, 2002) on Normal difficulty setting in the early era (having tried the Germans and Danes, both showing up as Moderate for my difficulty setting)

I also turned off the fatigue levels because I remembered them being such a pain in the demo (your troops fight for a minute and become extremely tired and then you wait five minutes for them to be rested so they can fight for another minute).

I should have turned off morale because otherwise you wind up having to speed up each battle as you try and chase down all the retreating chumps.

In addition I shut off the limited ammo since in larger battles where you’ve got five archer units or more you’ll wind up either setting them to fire-at-will and they’ll waste ammo and then when you need it you won’t have it, or you’ll have to run around the battle trying to micromanage every archer unit by telling it who to fire at, when to stop, etc. All the while trying to manage your troops holding off enemy charges and form your offensive troops into wedge formation for their charges, etc.

They try to sell you on a Braveheart style battle-system that proves to be more your troops standing around rather than full-on bloody battles, thus the need to disable these features so that you can actually enjoy battles.

I should have known that this game was “too good to be true”. Everything that has been pushed on the public has been geared towards fighting massive battles. The demo was all about that; the sales pitch was based on that as well.

But when you actually sit down with the game it’s more empire-management than action. You’ll spend 90% of your time trying to manage your provinces effectively. Unfortunately this is no cakewalk.

The documentation that comes with the game is VERY poorly done. The in-game tutorial for battles is decent, and the in-game tutorial for the campaign is horrible just like the documentation.

There are so many details that are left for you to try and figure out by yourself (I’m just waiting for the developers to say that’s “part of the fun”, when that to me is just a lame excuse for them to not take the time to actually put together a decent manual, which would probably have to be three to five times the size of the current one, gotta love those new tiny boxes they cram stuff into).

Of course, they didn’t even take the time to try and rip you off with semi-decent “on-line” documentation that you could view from your harddrive. The online documentation winds up just being more of a tech support style document and a medoicre manual addendum than anything with actual worth for learning the game.

With so many unit types, building types, trade goods, special units (assasins, princesses, emissaries, priests, etc.) it would make the game much more enjoyable for the player to actually be able to read more about these units, their effects, etc. How the heck am I supposed to know the population of each province, how that population grows, how the various resources and trade goods effect my income, etc? when little or nothing is presented in documentation or even in the game?

In addition, there are a variety of virtues and vices for you to “discover”. Some of them will happen based on the actions you take with your units (i.e. their leader/general will gain virtues and vices that effect him in your provinces or battles in a variety of ways based on his actions in battle or how he manages a provinces building setup, etc.)

Some virtues and vices will just appear randomly (but you aren’t notified, you have to keep a constant vigil by checking each and every unit to figure out who has added to their list every turn). Sometimes you’ll have a leader who has high “acumen”, which is good for having him run a province as it’s duke or whatever title may be appropriate for your faction. But if you don’t keep track of him every turn then you may wind up messing up your province.

He could develop the dead drunk vice or other vices that lower his acumen. Then you’ve got this chump running your province doing a poor job (which drops your income significantly from that province) and you don’t know it unless you’re constantly checking (not so bad when playing the Danish starting out with less provinces, but if you’re the Germans and you’ve got a ton of units and provinces to keep track of it becomes a micromanagement pain in the butt. And this is just starting the campaign, not even having gotten very far into things. Imagine when you’ve got a ton of provinces spread out throughout the world!)

Also, everytime you train a new military unit (a unit of spearmen, a unit of archers, cavalry, etc.) they come with a general who has various ratings that effect his ability to lead troops in battle or to manage a province should you decide to give him a title.

This becomes a huge micromanagement issue as well since you’ve will have a ton of troops/generals that may improve or worsen in different skills based on their virtues and vices. If you aren’t keeping track of them (and making sure that your key generals or titled dukes, etc. are well protected from assination or being killed in battle) then you may very well wind up with a really messed up nation.

The level of detail and micromanagement is too much, and it is the opposite from the way this game has been advertised, as a game of action (yes, I know I can play the battles only and avoid the campaign, but I’d like to play the campaign with more documentation available and less mystery and micromanagement necessary).

I have read that many people with systems similar or even much better than mine had problems installing or running the game, but I had no issues at all, so I got a stable CD.

In the end, the battles can be fun (if you turn off the realism settings so you can enjoy a more Braveheart style battle) and the campaign can be enjoyable with it’s huge variety of random events, vices and virtues, trade options, etc. The game is certainly stable on my system and I can’t complain there.

But, with the horrible documentation provided, the poor campaign tutorial and the huge amount of micromanagement it is impossible for me to score this game as it should have been scored, in the 90-100% range. I’m guessing the developers were probably rushed to get it out the door and went cheap on documentation to accomplish this.

Maybe micromanagement wouldn’t be as bad if you actually had more information on the various units, buildings and strategies to employ. But with so much left as a guessing game where you can’t find out about buildings and units and such until you are able to build them it is extremely hard to recommend this game to anyone who doesn’t have a good deal of patience.[/QUOTE]

One would think he has lost his mind, but to me it seems he simply don't want to think or act too much.


[This message has been edited by Kraxis (edited 08-27-2002).]

Fuh Teng
08-28-2002, 03:33
Humph. Well...At least he has had the good fortune to be able to play it. He should be grateful, but...

So many stupid people in the world.

The Fuh (:

Vanya
08-28-2002, 03:37
Quote Originally posted by Kraxis:
I thought it would be fair for your guys to participate in our rolling discussion of his review.

One would think he has lost his mind, but to me it seems he simply don't want to think or act too much.


[This message has been edited by Kraxis (edited 08-27-2002).][/QUOTE]


GAH!

Sounds like a bitter click-the-mouse-faster-than-thou bum-rush type. AOE is probably more his style.

And, I suspect he is guilty of the select-one-unit-at-a-time-and-double-click-on-your-general tactical pitfall. He is a green newbie with no patience.

http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif

He should go online and play MP. No 'provincial management' there. He can do his one-unit-at-a-time rush just fine there.

Doh! Wait! Then he'll complain he plain sucks and that vets are all cheaters out to get him! GAH!

ROFLMAO

I can honestly say that a lack of documentation makes for a better exploration of the game. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/eek.gif Makes you feel warm and fuzzy when you 'discover' a hidden feature... kinda like being a heretic king with an Inquisitor knockin' on your door while you're busy in bed with a couple of girls engaging in pagan rituals...

GAH!

malkuth
08-28-2002, 03:53
We must be playing different games or something half your complaints dont make sense.

I keep all the battle stuff on and its fine.

Vanya
08-28-2002, 03:56
Quote Originally posted by malkuth:
We must be playing different games or something half your complaints dont make sense.

I keep all the battle stuff on and its fine.[/QUOTE]

GAH!

I forgot to mention... anybody who plays with unlimited ammo and morale/fatigue off is a wimp and a tactical lackey. At least on MP play... SP... don't ask, don't tell.


GAH!


[This message has been edited by Vanya (edited 08-27-2002).]

vyanvotts
08-28-2002, 04:11
that guys lost the plot

MagyarKhans Cham
08-28-2002, 04:52
its certainly an aoe wimp. no settings, just going in. i dont think he is worth another thread.

Pachinko
08-28-2002, 05:13
The ONLY thing that he's right..The manual..It does kinda suck actually. But that's it.

P.

Divine Wind
08-28-2002, 05:17
His name should be changed 2 GrandAnus http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

Kraxis
08-28-2002, 05:50
It is funny that he gives the game an 80% rating when all he does is complaining. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

It is funny how he hates all that makes the game destinct. *SIGH*
When I read it at first, I seriously thought he was making fun of it, for how could one think like that... Seriously, I thought he was out to annoy us, but he was very elaborate, and he has made other posts as well.

Forward Observer
08-28-2002, 06:09
I'm sorry, but I have to ask---who is this reviewer and what is his background?

First of all, his 80% score is not that bad a score now-a-days for a PC games, but his actual review is terrible. Not only do his explanations defy logic, but he also appears to use no objectivity what so ever in his review. To me this is a key ingredient for a believable review.

Most of the stuff that he complains about appears to be more his own subjective personal preferences in games, and comes off sounding like the nit-picking whining complaints I see at this and the other boards when the game gets hard and throws them a curve.

He freely admits that he uses features like unlimited ammo and no morale because he doesn't want to have to contend with some of the real challenges of this game. Maybe this makes the game more resemble Age of Emptiness or Warcrap

I will admit that the manual is a bit Spartan, but it is well laid out, well written, and it has most of the basics of the game. I thought it was decent and far superior to the one that came with STW.
I know we have all seen a lot worse.

BTW, hardly anyone can match the 200 to 300 page manuals that come with most of strategy oriented games published by Sierra. Just look at Empire Earth and Homeworld to name a couple of excellent examples.

One thing to keep in mind though,is that MTW hit the shelves at $40 US when most of the other games coming out lately sell for $50
or more. With many of these you get a manual that could hardly contain the instructions to operate a wheel barrow.

I'd give the manual about a 75% while I would give this guy's review a 50 to 55%. If the MTW manual would have been increased to include charts of unit stats, faction stats or histories, and province discriptions, I would have given it a solid 90% plus.

Ok, I'm done now.

Cheers

------------------
Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl.

[This message has been edited by Forward Observer (edited 08-28-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Forward Observer (edited 08-28-2002).]

Elrich of Gaul
08-28-2002, 06:23
So in a nutshell, it would be similar to saying:

"you really need to see Lord of the Rings on the big cinima screen. Only thing is you'd need to turn down the sound cause it's too loud and shrink the screen cause it's too big and turn on some lights cause it's too dark and eliminate food cause you step on it"

Errr....

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"I will follow you anywhere my brother, my captain, my King"

Elrich

Papewaio
08-28-2002, 08:56
Papewaio Rants:

So in summary 'I only want Braveheart battles! No realism.'... well that was a bit superfluous wasn't it http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/rolleyes.gif.

What I dislike most is a reviewer who pans a game then still has the cheek to give it 80%.

What is it with most of these guys? Rate it out of 30 then add seventy?

I would like a decent manual. I dislike having to buy a game and then fork out money for the manual to play it. Diablo II was a good buy, but in general the manuals suck.

Anyhow the reviewer sounds rather lazy and does not like having a challenge. Some of us like a game that takes awhile to master. If it is anything like STW I will be still mastering the game in two years while this reviewer is onto his 30th click fest.

To put it another way if he went to a restaurant to have a steak he would complain that it hasn't been pureed into an easy to suck and digest form.

Onto one of my pet rants. This is why democracy sucks! My vote is equivalent to this type of guy who goes into an election booth and does a slick pick, them complains that we have stupid politicians.

------------------
Pape you're a disgrace. - NinjaKilla
Pape has the right idea. - Sir Kuma of The Org
Papewaio is right on the money. - Nelson
True Pape, so very True. - Barocca
Pape has it right./ As usual. - Minamoto Yoritomo / Sjakihata Akechi

pdoan8
08-28-2002, 09:32
He needs the Auto-management feature.

Turning off Fatigue level: I would say 10% less fun unless he remembers to turn off the battle time limit as well.

Turning off Morale: a major mistake. Take away almost all the fun of tactical battle. Without morale effect, there is no need for tactic, because simply the more and stronger troops will win. 15% to 25% less fun.

Turning off Limited Ammo: and make it a bit more like AOE. Unfortunately, MTW is not anywhere close to AOE and please, DO NOT compare it with Braveheart. 10% less fun (10% because I don't always depend on missile units).

Too many units to deal with and too much micromanagement to care about. Like I said, he need the Auto-management feature. Why waste the time trying to build an empire while you can't manage it? 10% less fun.

I know that many here just eager to go online because MP is probably most exciting thing about the game. I am really suck in MP, so I know that I miss out a big chunk of the game. No MP, 30% less fun.

So, he missed: 10 + 20 + 10 + 10 + 30 = 80% of the fun.

He only had fun on 20% of the game in 3 days and he gave the score of 80, so the game must be much better than expected.

Two things I agree on are:

a) A bit more info from the manual will be much better.

b) Much more micro-management compare to STW.



[This message has been edited by pdoan8 (edited 08-28-2002).]

DthB4Dishonour
08-28-2002, 10:10
Hail all,

What this guy calls micromanagement I call depth, what he calls game hindering "realism" I call being a general and knowing your army. Eventually if he plays this game long enough and goes to MP what he calls a bad game and this sucks, I will call a victory and good fun.
This game is gonna permanetly stay in one of my cd-drives for months maybe years to come, I will enjoy the depth of SP and will also enjoy testing new armies.

RTKPaul of Exidur

*Once more into the throng and let life be short for shame will be too long!*

eat cold steel
08-28-2002, 15:00
> There are so many details that are left for you to try and figure out by yourself.

It's all part of the fun!

Papewaio
08-28-2002, 16:03
ROFLMAO

ECS - You are not the messiah you are a very naughty boy

------------------
Pape you're a disgrace. - NinjaKilla
Pape has the right idea. - Sir Kuma of The Org
Papewaio is right on the money. - Nelson
True Pape, so very True. - Barocca
Pape has it right./ As usual. - Minamoto Yoritomo / Sjakihata Akechi

Nelson
08-28-2002, 18:18
This Grandgnus character deserves our sympathy. He just doesn't get it. It is true that if you want and expect robot soldiers Total War disappoints. Plus there was no way for him to quick click on a stable somewhere and crank out 50 knights to reinforce his battle. He was stuck with what he had, poor guy. The RTS genre instills a sense of urgency in fans that is hard to overcome. They require no sense of timing at all. Everything is a rush and a hurry. Now is always better than later in an RTS battle. In TW timing is everything Later is often better than sooner. He was in way over his head so he naturally tried to make Medieval like the games he knows by dumping morale, fatigue and ammo. It must have been very frustrating for him.

I don't know how he gave it an 80% considering his complaints.



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COGITOERGOVINCO

malkuth
08-28-2002, 18:26
Maybe he is trying to get a job with a major Game Mag? They do reviews like that. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

I was up to Midnight last night playing this game. What a blast.

Kraxis
08-28-2002, 18:28
It seems he did not use Ctrl-t to speed up things... At least you can do that, and thus waiting is not so bad, even in long waits.

RageMonsta
08-28-2002, 18:33
DD has returned?

Papewaio
08-28-2002, 18:40
Yes and if anything he will trash that review.

Please Monsta stop niggling DnD/DnS and just hassle us mods.

[This message has been edited by Papewaio (edited 08-28-2002).]

Kraxis
08-28-2002, 20:24
This is his response to one of my posts...

Quote
Re: My Response
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I haven't played Warcraft 3, the other warcraft games didn't hold my interest very long because I don't care for the battles in them or in games like Age of Empires. I'm more into the battles that I played in Lords Of The Realm II back in the day.

As far as turning off morale, fatigue and limited ammo, I believe I've already argued my case:

MORALE: I like action, I don't like having to micromanage my general to be in the center of all my units and avoiding combat so that all my units will be encouraged by the general and less likely to route. I don't like not being able to spread out my units and then have them route because the general can't be everywhere at once. And I don't like waiting forever for the enemy units to regroup after routing while my troops just stand around (because chasing down the enemy fatigues you too much)

FATIGUE: I can understand the realism and limitations you are talking about on fatigue, but again I feel this detracts too much from my fun factor in the battles. I enjoy watching armies charge into each other and clash, instead of watching all armies moping about trying to recover energy. That to me is boring.

LIMITED AMMO: I don't see how the ammo in the game can be considered realistic. You might fight one battle in a foreign land where you have no supplies to get and use up your arrows in combat but then the next turn your stock is full again. And like I said, I don't want to have to micromanage my archers by pausing the game constantly to adjust who they're firing at or when they fire because they'll just blow their ammo stupidly otherwise. I want to be commanding those front-line charges.

CONCLUSION: In battle I want non-stop action, not "pause and regroup troops" and then "pause and change archers orders" and "pause so my general can go to the bathroom" etc. And since the game includes the ability to turn off these options I'm going to assume that the gamedesigners and others out there share my feelings that some of those realism aspects take away a lot of the fun.

OTHER RESPONSES:

No, I did not see the manual for Shogun. I had problems at the time with my system back then being able to run the game, luckily I have no problem with Medieval on my newer system.

As far as my 80% score goes, that's about in line with what the game is getting elsewhere (gamespot gave it an 8.7 out of 10). I just think the game designers messed up on a few key areas (perhaps because they were rushed to production)

* Documentation is extremely bad and campaign tutorial blows goats. I've seen worse documentation on other games before, but not on many other games. This game has the choices and complexity of Civilization III, perhaps even more so, yet has the documentation you'd find if you purchased a bargain bin shooter for $9.99

* Micromanagement in campaign game gets to be a chore instead of enjoyable.

* Campaign map becomes cluttered with huge array of specialist units and armies which you need to click on each and every province, troop and special unit to figure out what you have and where it is. Again, a chore, this setup should be much more simplified.

* There is a wide variety of randomness with certain events that effect various nations and how your vices and virtues come about. But then there are certain scripted events that always occur at the same period and to the same nations.

And each province always is setup exactly the same. It doesn't make sense to me to have so many cool random factors and then have other things the same all the time.

If you can start a new game and have different ratings for your generals for each unit why can't your provinces all have different trade goods and incomes than before as well?

Without that randomness you wind up focusing attention on certain key provinces every game instead of having a bit more randomness (i.e. maybe a certain province last game was a key trade point and now it's worthless but a less defensible province is now key and you need to figure out how to keep it safe)

* Inability to make units larger (i.e. you can have a maximum of xxxx men per army or 16 units, yet some units have greater numbers than other units, 133 spearmen compared with 20 royal knights, etc.)

WHAT I DO LIKE:

* Battles are great fun when realism settings turned off. You can focus on fighting instead of pausing every three seconds. Thanks to the designers for including this feature!

* Wide variety of units and buildings adds great depth

* Stable on my system with no lag or crash issues

* Campaign map graphics look slick

* Battle graphics work well. They aren't drop-dead gorgeous but they convey the chaos of battles and keep the game from lagging so these are quite enjoyable.

* Excellent replayability due to various random vices/virtues and leaders, events and the different factions and religions to choose from.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy this game, I just think there are certain aspects that should have been caught by playtesters or quality control before it was released.
[/QUOTE]

Somehow I think he is a lost cause...

[This message has been edited by Kraxis (edited 08-28-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Kraxis (edited 08-28-2002).]

Papewaio
08-29-2002, 05:58
It sounds like he hasn't played STW so it would seem he is overwhelmed with all the options in battle. As it is he is playing it on wimpy mode, after a while when he feels like a challenge he may put those options on.

Maybe if he plays online he will master it quicker. I do know that initially I was getting my butt whipped by the AI. Now I do virtually anything possible in STW to increase the challenge.

Achievements are only ever as good as the challenge.

------------------
Pape you're a disgrace. - NinjaKilla
Pape has the right idea. - Sir Kuma of The Org
Papewaio is right on the money. - Nelson
True Pape, so very True. - Barocca
Pape has it right./ As usual. - Minamoto Yoritomo / Sjakihata Akechi

Taohn
08-29-2002, 07:09
The only thing I agree with him on is documentation bit.

Kraxis
08-29-2002, 18:01
He confessed that he had not played STW... too much for his system.

So I told him I was getting beaten all the time too when I was a newbie. But it seems he doesn't listen or care. The thread is beginning to die over there.

youssof_Toda
08-29-2002, 18:16
What's the point in playing the Total War series if you turn off all options which make it different from the rest? I think he should stick to red alert tank rushes.

Puzz3D
08-29-2002, 18:29
I think the manual is excellent. It clearly explains every feature in the game without giving away too much. I agree with Eat Cold Steel, that the most fun is during the time you are learning by playing. Later on, the game becomes more predictable, and you can never go back to that time when you were uncertain about what was going to happen.

DrNo
08-29-2002, 18:36
Quote Originally posted by Puzz3D:
I think the manual is excellent. It clearly explains every feature in the game without giving away too much. I agree with Eat Cold Steel, that the most fun is during the time you are learning by playing. Later on, the game becomes more predictable, and you can never go back to that time when you were uncertain about what was going to happen. [/QUOTE]

Dead right just like real life!
We all want to know everything there is to know about the in's and out's of MTW but once we know it, the game becomes too easy.

It's definetly the point in between being a novice and an expert where all the fun is.
And that's where modding comes in, once someone has changed a few things you have to learn how to adapt.

Great game with an even better future is how I would sum it up.