Burma

[Marshal Murat]

While some of you may use the term 'Myanmar' I am disgusted, saddened, and ashamed, but also proud of Burma.

Times on Burma (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article2545351.ece)


Burma’s generals silenced the Buddhist monks yesterday morning.

For a week and a half, the monks had been on the streets of Rangoon in their tens of thousands, and their angry calm gave courage to the people around them.

But overnight, they were beaten, shot and arrested, and locked in their monasteries. Handfuls of them emerged yesterday – two or three brave individuals, a dozen at most – but nothing to approach the mass marches of the previous nine days. Everyone felt their absence.

It shows how powerful religious figures can be.
It shows that aggression and violence don't always lead to change.
It shows that something is terribly wrong. (:china: )

BBC:Bush talks about Burma (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7017369.stm)BBC:Picture s in Burma (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/7015799.stm)
Accounts from Inside Burma (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7011884.stm)

This is where democracy started, and I hope that the world will bring attention to this issue, just as many people bring attention to Darfur.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

This is where democracy started, and I hope that the world will bring attention to this issue, just as many people bring attention to Darfur.

I hope something is actually done about it. This isn't Iraq, this is a country where the majority of people are actually fighting (without violence) for democracy, or at least a more humane regime. Help them with an international force, I say.

[master of the puppets]

Be realistic, since when have international forces been deployed to avenge what is a relatively miniscule amount of deaths and injuries. i'm not defending Myanmar's junta and i certainly disapprove of there us of wanton violence but honestly thats how it goes sometimes. there are many violent regimes around the world, Syria, Saudi Arabia, half of Africa, and much of southern Asia all suffer under harsh rule. Can we honestly go and save every ailing country from itself on the basis simply that they do not live so soundly or comfortably as us? Are YOU willing to risk your life behind a gun to free those people?

The world is a :daisy: up place, far more than it has to be, and likely for yet more time.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Be realistic, since when have international forces been deployed to avenge what is a relatively miniscule amount of deaths and injuries.

I am. I know nothing will be done there, I just hope that somebody will have the decency to do what is right. I doubt they will, but one can hope.

[master of the puppets]

Noone is hoping more than those monks, my friend. They are the firebrands, let us hope the populations outrage one day outweighs there fear. It seems they must first try to help themselves before anyone will help them.

[HoreTore]

I want to go there.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Armed intervention will never happen, nor should it.

However, one does not need to sit and wring one's hands. There are many ways as an individual you can try to help.

Most importantly, write frequently to your political representative urging them to take a stand. Whereas it may seem fruitless, it does have an impact when they note that their voters care.

Boycott Chinese goods - and write to the embassy in your country telling them why. China is the biggest backer of the regime and in the run up to the Olympics, are rather sensitive. If they see people protesting, it may influence them to stop blocking UN resolutions or more likely, work harder behind the scenes to moderate the junta.

Boycott Total Oil. One of the biggest investors in Burma (http://www.burmacampaign.org.uk/total_report.html), they are in joint partnership with the military dictatorship and one of France's biggest shames, leading to France often blocking EU initatives to impact the regime.

Write to the Burmese government protesting the imprisonment of political prisoners, especially Aung San Suu Kyi. Whilst again it may seem futile, Amnesty campaigns (for example) have managed to embarrass the regime enough to treat her better than might have been expected (ie she's still alive).

Don't just tut to yourself, make yourself a nuisance. This, of course, goes for all oppressive regimes - just a few letters a week, a couple of buying decisions and a difference can be made.

[Papewaio]

Why not boycott all French goods? If the government is blocking EU initiatives... like the Chinese one is doing at the UN... and if the Chinese weren't blocking at the UN wouldn't the French? Why not put the squeeze on the French in the EU by not subsidizing their farming as well.. it is the perfect excuse er reason to do so...

[Louis VI the Fat]

Boycott Total Oil. One of the biggest investors in Burma (http://www.burmacampaign.org.uk/total_report.html), they are in joint partnership with the military dictatorship and one of France's biggest shames, leading to France often blocking EU initatives to impact the regime.Ancient history (http://news.aol.com/story/_a/sarkozy-to-meet-with-myanmar-opposition/n20070926060109990011), I should hope. :shame:

Sarkozy to meet with Myanmar opposition, as France urges more EU sanctions against Myanmar
AP
Posted: 2007-09-26 06:01:39
PARIS (AP) - A French government official urged stronger European Union sanctions against Myanmar 's junta on Wednesday, as President Nicolas Sarkozy planned to meet with opponents of the Southeast Asian nation's regime.

As anti-government protests continued in Myanmar, with security forces firing warning shots and tear gas, France's European affairs minister, Jean-Pierre Jouyet, said the situation there was unacceptable and getting worse. He called the protests "completely legitimate."

"Among Europeans, we must discuss the necessity of reinforcing sanctions against the junta," he told France-Info radio.

The French president announced at the U.N. General Assembly that he would meet with Myanmar opposition figures. He did not say specifically who he would speak with. Info Birmanie, a French group supporting the Myanmar opposition, said he had invited Sein Win, an exiled opposition leader, to the Elysee Palace.

Frederic Debomy, coordinator of Info Birmanie, said Sein Win's meeting would be the first between a French president and the southeast Asian country's opposition.

"It was a lack of interest, the (Myanmar) opposition was not central enough to their strategy before," he said of French officials. Sarkozy came to office in May, pledging that France would "be at the side of the world's oppressed."
But by all means keep the pressure on that sinister Total...

[Odin]

this is a wonderful opportunity for India and China to show they truly are budding superpowers and step in with political and economic pressure. I am encouraged the Bush at least announced sanctions, hope others follow, and hope he gets credit for it as well.

Short of that there should be no intervention by any western power or UN body IMHO, india and china should be able to excert sufficent pressure to correct this situation.

Here's hoping the new world order passes its first test.

[HoreTore]

Armed intervention will never happen, nor should it.

However, one does not need to sit and wring one's hands. There are many ways as an individual you can try to help.

Most importantly, write frequently to your political representative urging them to take a stand. Whereas it may seem fruitless, it does have an impact when they note that their voters care.

Boycott Chinese goods - and write to the embassy in your country telling them why. China is the biggest backer of the regime and in the run up to the Olympics, are rather sensitive. If they see people protesting, it may influence them to stop blocking UN resolutions or more likely, work harder behind the scenes to moderate the junta.

Boycott Total Oil. One of the biggest investors in Burma (http://www.burmacampaign.org.uk/total_report.html), they are in joint partnership with the military dictatorship and one of France's biggest shames, leading to France often blocking EU initatives to impact the regime.

Write to the Burmese government protesting the imprisonment of political prisoners, especially Aung San Suu Kyi. Whilst again it may seem futile, Amnesty campaigns (for example) have managed to embarrass the regime enough to treat her better than might have been expected (ie she's still alive).

Don't just tut to yourself, make yourself a nuisance. This, of course, goes for all oppressive regimes - just a few letters a week, a couple of buying decisions and a difference can be made.

Pfft, we can do more, we can go there to throw gasoline on the fires of revolution! I assume I can count you in, Banqou?

[rotorgun]

I think that the Bhuddist Monks have done the most effective thing they could to oppose their repressive government-passive resistance. A study of Gandy's approach will show the power in not fighting back with violence. Nothing demonstrates the futility of violence to the oppressor than his victim calmly remaining steadfast in the face of his attacks. It robs the oppressor of so much of his self-percieved power.

I am praying for the people of this region that they may follow the example of the monks-resist, but use no violence. The bravery of such an act leaves me speechless.

[Tribesman]

I think that the Bhuddist Monks have done the most effective thing they could to oppose their repressive government-passive resistance.
Unfortunately the people in power don't give a damn how much passive or even active resistance they face , they have the power to carry on regardless and they have the backers that will help them do it .
It is not in Chinas interest to mess up their beneficial relationship with the junta and there is no movement within China abe to oppose their leaders policies .
Ghandi had success with his movement because Britain was getting massively diminishing returns from India , its power and influence were in serious decline , there was a healthy opposition in government and the people had a voice .
Since it is not in other countries interest to put sufficient pressure on China to force them to change policy they are not going to do it .

[woad&fangs]

Somehow using military force to help a revolution started by monks just seems wrong. The revolution needs to be won through passive social and economic resistance. Regardless of how we feel about them, China is one of the main superpowers in Asia so they need to take initiative by boycotting trade with Burma. Obviously they won't do that with out a little bit of prodding so I say that every country boycotts the Beijing '08 Olympics unless China stops trade with Burma and Sudan. Every country should boycott trade with Burma but how China reacts will probably dictate the success or failure of the revolution.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

In many cases the nature of the revolution will define the nature of the state that comes from that revolution. If the Junta is overthrown by force, having gained power through force, then you are starting a vicious cycle which will ultimately not benefit Burma in the slightest.

Peaceful protest will be more painful but it has the potentional to have more positive long-term results.

[Ironside]

In many cases the nature of the revolution will define the nature of the state that comes from that revolution. If the Junta is overthrown by force, having gained power through force, then you are starting a vicious cycle which will ultimately not benefit Burma in the slightest.

Peaceful protest will be more painful but it has the potentional to have more positive long-term results.

Ah, but you still need military support if those in power can cause massacres without severe consequences.
Now, it should be enough if for example the highest military commander of the forces in Rangoon had joined his forces with the people. Beating those down would be quite hard and probably trigger a civil war (and that at a point were the rebels got very high support).

[Reverend Joe]

I think the point that the supporters of a peaceful revolution are trying to make is that nonviolent resistance itself is the key to persuading, and thus disarming, the military and the power structure. No revolution has ever come about through simple peaceful protests. But if the resistance movement can convince the military to refuse to perform any more massacres or beatings, mainly by making these massacres seem futile, then they will win through sheer force of will. It is one of the hardest things in the world to do, but it is also one of the most effective vehicles of change, when it finally works.

[Marshal Murat]

This makes me sad. (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=484903)

[Lemur]

The situation in Burma makes me think that the right to keep and bear arms would have radically changed the equation, had it been part of the culture and legal heritage. If a small percentage of civilians were armed, the military regime would have needed to be much more careful about where to send troops. And the soldiers themselves would have been more thoughtful about facing down thousands of protesters, if they knew that some were armed.

A lot of folks scoff at the "prevention of tyranny" argument for gun ownership, but let's face it -- peaceful revolution does not work if the ruling regime has any support from the outside (cough, India, cough, China).

[AntiochusIII]

I'm not sure guns would help, Lemur. The government would just drive the armed citizens into the jungle and call them rebels, similar to what happens in various South and Central American countries.

There's just no infrastructure for a popular revolution in Burma to succeed. Not as long as China keeps providing the regime with whatever it needs; not without a middle class; and not without continuous resistance, which to most Burmese translates to certain death by the hands of the junta.

[Slyspy]

The situation in Burma makes me think that the right to keep and bear arms would have radically changed the equation, had it been part of the culture and legal heritage. If a small percentage of civilians were armed, the military regime would have needed to be much more careful about where to send troops. And the soldiers themselves would have been more thoughtful about facing down thousands of protesters, if they knew that some were armed.

A lot of folks scoff at the "prevention of tyranny" argument for gun ownership, but let's face it -- peaceful revolution does not work if the ruling regime has any support from the outside (cough, India, cough, China).

Rubbish, it would simply have raised the death toll terribly.

[Lemur]

Slyspy, Antiochus, I hear what you're saying. From another discussion:


The days of the Revolutionary War are over. Native Americans had guns. The Iraqi insurgency even has pretty decent guns (AK-47s). Having guns is just an invitation to get slaughtered. Without equivalent firepower, no militia or popular uprising has any chance against a modern army. Being seen holding a gun simply means "shoot me first". There's a reason why IEDs are the weapon of choice in Iraq. Every time that the insurgency tries to stand and fight, or even snipe at the troops, they get mowed down. If the Burmese people suddenly find massive caches of assault rifles, body armor, RPGs, armored vehicles and air support, let me know.

Good points all. I guess I'm just terribly frustrated at what's going on in Burma, and I wish the protesters could do more than march and get shot/beaten. At the moment, it looks as though their bid for democracy is on hold. Very depressing.

[AntiochusIII]

Good points all. I guess I'm just terribly frustrated at what's going on in Burma, and I wish the protesters could do more than march and get shot/beaten. At the moment, it looks as though their bid for democracy is on hold. Very depressing.Oh, certainly, I desperately despise such thuggish regimes as that of the current Burmese -- pardon, Myanmar :dizzy2: -- government.

I guess it was cynicism that holds me back from truly applauding their hopeless cause. Despite massive international pressures, which the U.S. essentially leads by the way (good for them), the leader of the Burmese Democrats [note: no US correlation] has yet to be released from her years of "house arrest." I suspect she'll never get out alive.

Considering the position of monks in Southeast Asian society -- very elevated, almost like a caste of Brahmans -- the sheer audacity in the methods used in suppressing them expresses very well how far the bunch of scums in charge will go in protecting their pathetic little warlord status from crumbling.

The only way to end the regime in the near future would be a Chinese embargo, which we'll not likely see for a long time. The Old Men in Beijing are far too Machiavellian in their neo-colonialism to care about such trifles as a few dead and tortured monks.

Apologies to the noble Machiavelli for the abuse of his name.

[Tribesman]

Just to expand on slyspy and antiochs thing , there is armed opposition , there has been lots of it for a long long time , it hasn't worked .

The government would just drive the armed citizens into the jungle and call them rebels, similar to what happens in various South and Central American countries.

Wheras the Burmese governments have not only driven them into the jungle , they have driven several of the groups out of the country altogether , not that it has stopped them launching raids or doing little bombing campaigns in the towns and cities, but while world powers are still backing the junta it ain't gonna amount to much .

[Ironside]

Wheras the Burmese governments have not only driven them into the jungle , they have driven several of the groups out of the country altogether , not that it has stopped them launching raids or doing little bombing campaigns in the towns and cities, but while world powers are still backing the junta it ain't gonna amount to much .

Those village purges are done due to this resistance, correct?

[Tribesman]

Those village purges are done due to this resistance, correct?
Yep , they have been done by the various regimes in Burma since independance .
To clarify further what Lemur should have written when he wrote.....
The situation in Burma makes me think that the right to keep and bear arms would have radically changed the equation, had it been part of the culture and legal heritage. If a small percentage of civilians were armed, the military regime would have needed to be much more careful about where to send troops. And the soldiers themselves would have been more thoughtful about facing down thousands of protesters, if they knew that some were armed.

A lot of folks scoff at the "prevention of tyranny" argument for gun ownership, but let's face it -- peaceful revolution does not work if the ruling regime has any support from the outside (cough, India, cough, China).......he should have added that for the "prevention of tyranny" thing to work not only would the people have to be armed and the government not have substantial foriegn backing , the "rebels" would also have to have very serious foriegn backing .

[Lemur]

Tribes, I already retracted that post, and expanded on why I was wrong, but feel free to flog it for all it's worth. I assume you're keeping some sort of score or something?

[Samurai Waki]

Its a frustrating mess over there... I think the eventual outcome will probably end better than say the African juntas or the Banana Republics. However, as it has been stated before, without any serious foreign backing a Rebel Front is probably out of the question, considering the junta has the support of China, and to further that end it would cause even more needless bloodshed. I mean at this point, all the Burmese can really do to cause the eventual decline of the military regime is to quite literally "lay back and relax" as much as they are permitted. Causing the regimes own eventual downfall.

[Tribesman]

Tribes, I already retracted that post, and expanded on why I was wrong
So what ?


but feel free to flog it for all it's worth. I assume you're keeping some sort of score or something?:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
No , but its worth expanding on further:idea2:

Waki sort of touches on it with his juntas and bananas

So how about going from....the "rebels" would also have to have very serious foriegn backing .....? Now which rebel groups would be worth backing and given the ethnic or political agendas of the different groups which ones could turn out to be just another junta in waiting propped up by another nation to serve that nations economic interests ?

[Samurai Waki]

Not sure to be honest. It was more of a generalized statement, that if a "Rebel Group" had been in the eye of another player to capitalize it's own interests upon. The current Junta has the support of China, I'd imagine with the USA's illustrious reputation of backing "Democratic Movements":laugh4: that they'd choose to arm a group claiming to be pro west. In the imperialistic eyes, it doesn't matter what form of government is over there as long is it "trades with us and only us". Pretty much exactly what you said.

[woad&fangs]

I just sent an email to Senator Russ Feingold urging him to either vote in favor of or create a bill boycotting the 08 Beijing Summer Olympics unless China stops trade with Burma. I urge the rest of you to also write to your respective congressmen/woman about this issue.

[Caius]

Why should I? :dizzy2:

I'm confused.

[Justiciar]

Angry letters! That'll teach 'em! :rolleyes2:

[woad&fangs]

Why should I? :dizzy2:

I'm confused.
China sees the Olympics as its coming out party as a world super power. A boycott by the major nations would be humiliating to China and the threat of a boycott might persuade them to stop trading with Burma. The military junta that rules Burma relies on trade with China to survive.

[woad&fangs]

Angry letters! That'll teach 'em! :rolleyes2:
Well it's better than nothing which is what the world is doing right now. I know that this has only the slimmest chance of actually working but it is chance and the Burmese citizens will be no worse off then they are now if it fails.

[Fragony]

The horrors of socialism :yes:

Our independent media who aren't biased at all and their socialist masters started blaming, what else, total and the Marxjugend got the hint and started attacking Total stations, get a job :laugh4: :laugh4:

[AntiochusIII]

The horrors of socialism :yes:

Our independent media who aren't biased at all and their socialist masters started blaming, what else, total and the Marxjugend got the hint and started attacking Total stations, get a job :laugh4: :laugh4:...what? :inquisitive:

[Fragony]

...what? :inquisitive:

Oh just the typical leftist hypocrisy. The socialists are screaming for a boycott of the french oilcompany Total because they are really to blame for everything what is happening there, and the usual terrorists actiongroups are sabotaging Total-pump stations here in the Netherlands. Of course they love to forget, or it just doesn't exist, that it is the socialist government in Burma that gets filthy rich from it, the same government that upped the prices with 500% to pay fort their bureaucracy. They are very carefull to avoid the word 'socialist government' for obvious reasons, one being that they (alledgedly) sponsored that same government that is now pwning monks, just as they sponsored the glorious leader Kim Jung in North Korea and leftist guarilla's like the Fark in southern america. Two being that socialism is the bomb that needs to be promoted, t'is teh greatest thing ever :yes:

[AntiochusIII]

...

Since when has the Burmese government been socialist, of all things?

[Tribesman]

Since when has the Burmese government been socialist, of all things?
Well it is sort of , apparently its marxist-leninist-maoist communism mixed with buddhism -racism -nationalism plus some capitalism and astrology thrown in for good measure .
Now it might be said that some of those things would be mutually exclusive , but then again it might be said that the junta is made up of a bunch of nuts .

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Well, they apparently learned the maoist bit about power flowing from the barrel of a gun. Not exactly complex. I suspect most of the rest of their government "dogma" is window dressing for the usual warlordism that is the lot of most of humanity.

[Lemur]

A couple of unbelievably depressing updates. First off, a few monks have survived to tell some of the horrors (http://www.irrawaddy.org/article.php?art_id=8981):

Monks in Hell

by Kyi Wai/ Rangoon, October 11, 2007

“Due to the lack of food and the extreme highs and lows of temperature, some monks and laypeople felt like they were suffocating. Others simply died.

“The conditions were terrible. We each had no more than a small patch of cell to sit on,” lamented Burmese monk U Sandar Vaya, looking pale and weak and somewhat older than his 33 years.

U Sandar Vaya was arrested along with hundreds of other Buddhist monks at midnight on September 26. The Burmese military authorities had started arresting demonstrators that day, detained them in five locations around Rangoon—the Government Technology Institute (GTI) in Insein, the police quarters in Kyaikkasan, and police detention centers in Hmawbi, Thanlyin and Aung Thapyay, according to those people who were later released. One police official estimates that there would have been at least 1,000 monks and laypeople per detention center.

U Sandar Waya said he was incarcerated with 500 other monks and 200 civilians in one room of the GTI. The authorities gave them each only one bowl of drinking water in the first two days, later increasing the ration to three bowls. The guards didn't allow the detainees to wash and there was no toilet, only plastic bags for sanitation.

“The room was filthy and it stank,” says U Sandar Waya.

Another Buddhist monk who was recently released confirmed that about 700 monks and laypeople were detained in a hall some 9m by 21m (30 ft x70 ft).

“Even though the room could be considered a rather wide area, we were so jam-packed that it was hard to breathe,” he said.

The monk, who asked not to be identified, said the guards took each monk in turn from the room and forced him to take off his robe. They were made to put on laymen’s clothes.

The authorities provided only one meal per day – a lunch at 2 p.m., which monks can't eat as their Buddhist vow allows them only to eat in the morning. On the concrete floor of the room the guards poured wet sand and, as a result, some detainees became weak and sick very quickly.

While in detention, some monks continued to protest against the regime, but many others became too weak to do so.

“More than a dozen monks and other people died,” claimed a layman who was released on October 5. “And almost all the detainees got sick.

"It really was hell," he said. “I could do nothing for a young novice who was dying beside me. We asked for help from the security guards, but they didn't do anything until they came to take away his dead body.”

A 30-year-old man who was released from Kyaikkasan detention center recounted his experience: “At midnight on September 28, the authorities cut off the electricity in the 20 ft by 40 ft (6m x 12m) room where about 200 people, including me, were detained.

“Suddenly, they started pumping water into the room while we were sleeping. We panicked. Then the police came running into the room and started beating us.

“Wearing wet clothes, we are all taken from the room one by one and interrogated three times—by the police, the Special Branch and the Military Intelligence."

The authorities started to release detainees on October 4 on the condition that they would never participate, encourage or even watch any future protest. The conditions for release had to be signed by their parents or guardians.

The authorities released those monks who signed the conditions or who weren't suspected of being involved in the protests, but not those monks who refused to sign. As a result, many Buddhist monks are still imprisoned.

After release, the monks are not allowed to leave their monasteries. Monks who got injured during the protests still haven’t been afforded medical treatment. It is estimated that more than 3,000 monks and civilians were detained during the demonstrations, and at least 130 people were killed.

U Sandar Vaya was released from detention on October 5, but he remains defiant: “They took off my robe, but in my mind I resisted. I am always a monk, whatever they do to me.”
Secondly, it seems that the generals were waiting for the world's attention to wander before they started the real crackdown. Now it's disappearin' time (http://news.independent.co.uk/world/asia/article3047606.ece).

Only now, the full horror of Burmese junta's repression of monks emerges

By Rosalind Russell, 11 October 2007

Monks confined in a room with their own excrement for days, people beaten just for being bystanders at a demonstration, a young woman too traumatised to speak, and screams in the night as Rangoon's residents hear their neighbours being taken away.

Harrowing accounts smuggled out of Burma reveal how a systematic campaign of physical punishment and psychological terror is being waged by the Burmese security forces as they take revenge on those suspected of involvement in last month's pro-democracy uprising.

The first-hand accounts describe a campaign hidden from view, but even more sinister and terrifying than the open crackdown in which the regime's soldiers turned their bullets and batons on unarmed demonstrators in the streets of Rangoon, killing at least 13. At least then, the world was watching.

The hidden crackdown is as methodical as it is brutal. First the monks were targeted, then the thousands of ordinary Burmese who joined the demonstrations, those who even applauded or watched, or those merely suspected of anti-government sympathies.

"There were about 400 of us in one room. No toilets, no buckets, no water for washing. No beds, no blankets, no soap. Nothing," said a 24-year-old monk who was held for 10 days at the Government Technical Institute, a leafy college in northern Rangoon which is now a prison camp for suspected dissidents. The young man, too frightened to be named, was one of 185 monks taken in a raid on a monastery in the Yankin district of Rangoon on 28 September, two days after government soldiers began attacking street protesters.

"The room was too small for everyone to lie down at once. We took it in turns to sleep. Every night at 8 o'clock we were given a small bowl of rice and a cup of water. But after a few days many of us just couldn't eat. The smell was so bad.

"Some of the novice monks were under 10 years old, the youngest was just seven. They were stripped of their robes and given prison sarongs. Some were beaten, leaving open, untreated wounds, but no doctors came."

On his release, the monk spoke to a Western aid worker in Rangoon, who smuggled his testimony and those of other prisoners and witnesses out of Burma on a small memory stick.

Most of the detained monks, the low-level clergy, were eventually freed without charge as were the children among them. But suspected ringleaders of the protests can expect much harsher treatment, secret trials and long prison sentences. One detained opposition leader has been tortured to death, activist groups said yesterday. Win Shwe, 42, a member of the National League for Democracy, the party of the detained democracy leader Aung San Suu Kyi, has died under interrogation, the Thai-based Assistance Association for Political Prisoners said, adding that the information came from authorities in Kyaukpandawn township. "However, his body was not sent to his family and the interrogators indicated that they had cremated it instead." Win Shwe was arrested on the first day of the crackdown.

It was the russet-robed Buddhist clergy, not political groups, who had formed the backbone of demonstrations during days of euphoric defiance and previously undreamed-of hope that Burma's military regime could be brought down by peaceful revolution. That hope has been crushed under the boots of government soldiers and intelligence agents and replaced by fear and dread.

A young woman, a domestic worker in Rangoon, described how one woman bystander who applauded the monks was rounded up. "My friend was taken away for clapping during the demonstrations. She had not marched. She came out of her house as the marchers went by and, for perhaps 30 seconds, smiled and clapped as the monks chanted. Her face was recorded on a military intelligence camera. She was taken and beaten. Now she is so scared she won't even leave her room to come and talk to me, to anyone."

Another Rangoon resident told the aid worker: "We all hear screams at night as they [the police] arrive to drag off a neighbour. We are torn between going to help them and hiding behind our doors. We hide behind our doors. We are ashamed. We are frightened."

Burmese intelligence agents are scrutinising photographs and video footage to identify demonstrators and bystanders. They have also arrested the owners of computers which they suspect were used to transmit images and testimonies out of the country. For each story smuggled out to The Independent, someone has risked arrest and imprisonment.

Hein Zay Kyaw (not his real name) received a telephone call last week telling him to be at a government compound where the military were releasing 42 people, among them Mr Kyaw's friend, missing since he was plucked from the edge of a demonstration on 26 September. Mr Kyaw told the aid worker: "The prisoners were let out of the trucks. Even though now they were safe, they were still so scared. They walked with their hands shielding their faces as if they were expecting blows. They were lined up in rows and sat down against the wall, still cowering. Their clothes were dirty, some stained with blood. Our friend had a clean T-shirt on. We were relieved because we thought this meant that he had not been beaten. We were wrong. He had been beaten on the head and the blood had soaked his shirt which he carried in a plastic bag."

The United States yesterday threatened unspecified new sanctions against Burma and called for an investigation into the death of Win Shwe.

White House spokesman Gordon Johndroe said in a statement: "The junta must stop the brutal treatment of its people and peacefully transition to democracy or face new sanctions from the United States."

The scale of the crackdown remains undocumented. The regime has banned journalists from entering Burma and has blocked internet access and phone lines.

Mark Farmaner of the Burma Campaign UK says the number of dead is possibly in the hundreds. "The regime covers up its atrocities. We will never know the true numbers," he said.

At the weekend the government said it has released more than half of the 2,171 people arrested, but exile groups estimate the number of detentions between 6,000 and 10,000.

In Rangoon, people say they are more frightened now than when soldiers were shooting on the streets.

"When there were demonstrations and soldiers on the streets, the world was watching," said a professional woman who watched the marchers from her office.

"But now the soldiers only come at night. They take anyone they can identify from their videos. People who clapped, who offered water to the monks, who knelt and prayed as they passed. People who happened to turn and watch as they passed by and their faces were caught on film. It is now we are most fearful. It is now we need the world to help us."

[Husar]

Bah! Seems like they turned down the rebellion effectively, once it stopped rolling, it was almost lost I guess. :no:

[Fragony]

About time they removed those bourgeois monks, obvious class enemy's of the proletaeriat serves them right. How dare they not see it the same way as the glorious revolutionary's? Where is Che when you need him, he had his ways :balloon2: