View Full Version : Worst EB Unit?
antisocialmunky
09-29-2007, 14:16
So what do do you guys think is the most pathetic unit in EB?
I would have to say that Greek Archers suck the most. I'm impressed if they can kill more than 3 men of a group of decent heavy infantry.
You mean Toxotes? They're not useless, I use them heaps.
As for my most useless unit it's obviously celtic chariots, they suck, I cannot say that enough, I know they are supposed to be used against heavy inf. or something like that but they suck at that as well, they suck, they suck, they suck, they make Casse generals useless!
Long lost Caesar
09-29-2007, 15:03
totally agree with you monkey. toxotai are AWFUL! i thought that a lot of them would do some good in a siege, they ended up taking up too much space on the walls and blocking infantry fighting siege towers. what a shambles that was...
Teleklos Archelaou
09-29-2007, 15:07
I only use them to defend cities (to set fire to rams or towers then only) - and then only one or two at max. They shouldn't be that common (numberswise in the armies) and thankfully we don't see tons of them anywhere usually.
toxotai are good... they won some nasty battles for me when i was defending Taras against the scummy Roman hordes and i tend to keep at least 2 archer units in my armies
As for the most useless unit, i'd say Pantodapoi :whip:
Olaf The Great
09-29-2007, 15:17
Pantodapoi, atleast toxotoi are cheap and have flaming arrows.
Seriously, Pantodapoi are expensive, look stupid, and have skirmisher stats.
Tellos Athenaios
09-29-2007, 15:44
Huh? :inquisitive: Pantodapoi are excellent units.
You just got to know how to use them, besides being fodder.... :shrug:
What are you guys staring at me for?
antisocialmunky
09-29-2007, 16:02
totally agree with you monkey. toxotai are AWFUL! i thought that a lot of them would do some good in a siege, they ended up taking up too much space on the walls and blocking infantry fighting siege towers. what a shambles that was...
Hehehe, well if you want a tip, use slingers instead. Comparing toxotai and slingers is like comparing a paintball and a .50 cal FMJ.
Andronikos
09-29-2007, 16:15
I don't like militias, but I understand they have to be in game. Toxotai are good - I managed to root an army of militias with fire arrows. And Casse chariots - I like them, it's the same like other special units - if you can use them, they are really valuable.
Kampfkrebs
09-29-2007, 16:22
Two words: Equites Ambakaro.
Mediolanicus
09-29-2007, 16:27
I finally got EB to work!!!!
I don't know how, but it suddenly works.
It sometimes still CTD's while loading the menu the first time, but once I'm playing a campain it works like a charm (actually a lot more fluently than other mods)
But on the topic :
My vote goes to the Pantodapoi. Sure they have other uses than fodder, but with those stats, they are just too expensive to train once you've got anything marginally better at your disposal.
I'm currently playing a Casse campain (somewhere around 255BC at the moment) and I must say that the chariots are not at all useless! They have been decisive in every battle I've fought until now.
Two words: Equites Ambakaro.
Why?
They're to be removed though, so....
NeoSpartan
09-29-2007, 16:45
CELTIC CHARRIOTS are the worst unit.
They don't do jack. All they do is get tangeled up deep inside infantry formations and can't get out. Also, skirmishers kill them like nothing. Plus their cost is better used in another decent infantry.
For all the $$ that they cost, they ain't worth it. On the other hand taxotai can burn rams and towers, and they are super so u can use them as fodder or as garrison.
Elephants are 2nd on my list of worst units. Mainly due to their extreme cost, since I can buy several units with that $$. And if it is one of them super expensive armored elephants, I can buy a 1/2 stack with that $$$.
Kampfkrebs
09-29-2007, 16:46
Why?
They're to be removed though, so....
Because they die somehow even faster than the chariots.
And thank god they will be removed...:laugh4:
carthage_supreme
09-29-2007, 18:27
some of them on my list
pantodapai: They're not even worth the trouble, all levys are superior to them LOL , even numidian skirimisher would outdue them. Keep them only in your city-garrison to collect taxes and enforce the law.
Cidainh (Celtic Chariots): Utterly useless, kinda like crap-quality javliners on wheels, there speed is there only advantage. The only reason for someone to have them is due to there morale boost and , otherwise celtic slingers will outperform them anytime as missle-support.
Sotaroas(celtic archers): what use are they anyway? crappier version of the already crappy toxotoi, on the field they're useless since they cant even dish out decent damage against infantry, i always keept 4 units of them in my army and they never did any significant damage. You should only use them to intimidate enemies in morale disadvanage or as garrison support, but on the field the celtic slingers are superior and do devestating damage compared to sotaroas.
Nizag Gund (Parthian Spearmen): same as pantodapai
The Celtic Viking
09-29-2007, 19:28
Sotaroas(celtic archers): what use are they anyway? crappier version of the already crappy toxotoi, on the field they're useless since they cant even dish out decent damage against infantry, i always keept 4 units of them in my army and they never did any significant damage. You should only use them to intimidate enemies in morale disadvanage or as garrison support, but on the field the celtic slingers are superior and do devestating damage compared to sotaroas.
How are they worse than toxotai? They have 1 more missile attack, has longer range and, unlike the toxotai with their useless knives, can also act as light infantry when their ammo is spent thanks to their spears (which also gives them better defense against cavalry) and their superior defense and morale. Simply put, the only place where toxotai is better is in the cost, but that's not by enough to balance the scale. Sotaroas are better.
I'm not saying that they are by any means excellent archers, but they're certainly not the worst. I look at them as light infantry that has switched shield and javelins for a bow, and it seems to work well - at least against units with little armour, which is their intended targets anyway. As can be said about toxotai, they're definately good to have in sieges to burn down rams and towers. What's not so good about them, though, is that you need the first reforms to train them.
The worst unit in EB I find to be... celtic chariots. Their javelins do nada, melee equals suicide and they're expensive. It's very unfortunate because I find them to be cool, good looking and I simply don't want to play Casse without chariots. But I don't want them to be useless at anything but cheerleading either. :shame:
Watchman
09-29-2007, 19:57
What's not so good about them, though, is that you need the first reforms to train them.I've always wondered a bit about that mind you. I mean, how hard can it be to find a bunch of hunters with bows to play fire support...?
Particularly since IIRC the Gallic starting stacks contain a couple. :inquisitive:
When one considers the value of a unit one has to consider it in campaign; Pantodapoi aren't great in custom battles, but they are in campaigns. Pantodapoi move far faster than phalanx troops, can be raised early in great number, and are cheaper and more easily raised than Jewish levies (thus I feel better about abandoning them). I second the Nizag Gund.
Spendios
09-29-2007, 20:15
you may have some more pathetic reserve soon ~:pimp:
Am I the only one who uses celtic chariots as a terror weapon? When the lines are locked I take a unit of those to parade and throw javelins behind the enemy line. The enemy usually breaks just from that.
Centurio Nixalsverdrus
09-29-2007, 20:47
All Psiloi suck, but the real suckers are the Akontistai.They can't do any damage, they can't set things on fire, they are just there to die. Even the lightest of cavalry erases them from the battlefield.
In cavalry terms, really bad are Hippakontistai and Thraikioi Hippeis. They die like flies. What are they good for after all? Even Curepos (very bad) and Ridoharjoz (not so good at all) are waaaayyy better.
Pantodapoi are also bad. And so are Nizag Gund, Hoplitai Haploi and Doryphoroi Pontikoi. All just cannon fodder.
Bootsiuv
09-29-2007, 21:41
I can't help but disagree with the Hoplitai Haploi....I think they're an excellent unit for the cost.
Their attack blows, but their defense isn't half bad, and their build requirements are as low as it gets. They're a solid unit in the early game, although they do begin to suck badly later on.
TWFanatic
09-29-2007, 21:44
Hellenic Slingers are far superior to the Hellenic archers.
The most worthless, expensive, slow, and all around worst units in EB are artillery. See ele thread. They're a joke!:clown:
Am I the only one who uses celtic chariots as a terror weapon? When the lines are locked I take a unit of those to parade and throw javelins behind the enemy line. The enemy usually breaks just from that.
cavalry can do the same thing, are more manouverable (chariot drivers move like they had a bit too many vodkas before battle), are more readily available and have other uses as well
edit: i have to change my answer to artillery - good point TWfanatic...
Bootsiuv
09-29-2007, 21:49
I would just as soon see the Casse generals be foot infantry....let them build chariots as elites if you must, but don't force them on us.
Chariots were rarely used in melee battle anyways, they usually served as field taxis, bringing in fresh troops and taking out tired and wounded, or serving as mobile missile platforms.
The Casse are the only faction who can't really use their general in melee should the situation grow desperate. In fact, doing so is a great way to accelerate a loss into a full blown defeat, as your general invariably routs, and then your beleaugered men quickly follow suit.
TWFanatic
09-29-2007, 21:58
Very good point boot, I completely agree. The Cassae general should be an infantry unit.
Personally, I modded my game to make Calawrae (sp?) my early general and Rycalwrae (sp?) my late general (for after reforms take place).
chariots are pretty much inherently flawed due to the rtw engine. the only strength they have is against enemy cavalry, but you need to manually control the chariots with pause-unpause controlling to make it work, which is annoying, since you cant let the chariots come to a halt, they need to be in motion rubbing against the enemy horses to do their special attack dmg.
besides chariots i dont think many of them are really bad as such. i mean elephants may not appeal to you in the early game due to the fact that you could have decent army for the same price but once you have a real empire the money they cost is insignificant.
In cavalry terms, really bad are Hippakontistai and Thraikioi Hippeis. They die like flies. What are they good for after all?
I find Hippakontistai very useful for KH. Four units of Hippakontistai throwing javelins behind the enemy line.... AI gets very nervous when his army's surrounded and breaks his frontal formation thus giving you serious advantage.
Hippakontistai are very cheap and fast moving, you can recruit them almost everywhere from 1 level MIC. Nope, they are not "Zee Awesome Charge" cavalry, but they are useful.
Moderator!
There was an older tread https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=86391 about the same.
NeoSpartan
09-29-2007, 22:51
I find Hippakontistai very useful for KH. Four units of Hippakontistai throwing javelins behind the enemy line.... AI gets very nervous when his army's surrounded and breaks his frontal formation thus giving you serious advantage.
Hippakontistai are very cheap and fast moving, you can recruit them almost everywhere from 1 level MIC. Nope, they are not "Zee Awesome Charge" cavalry, but they are useful.
Moderator!
There was an older tread https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=86391 about the same.
Well.... I had a guy do that to me in MP and it didn't work, sure I lost a few guys but that was it.
the whole battle lasted 10mins..... too bad it was our only battle due to connection issue. :wall:
The problem with those horse is the fact that they have absolutely NO charge.
The Sweboz don't have a charge either but they are decent hand to hand.
Louges Ecpos (sp) have a decent hand to hand too (although a little less than the Sweboz) BUT they do have a good Charge!
Tellos Athenaios
09-29-2007, 23:38
Hippakontistai have some really powerful secondary stats, though... They might not be the end all and be all of Skirmisher cavalry (especially because akontistai and the like will make short work of them in melee too...), still when comitted at the right time they will make you run for the hills! And believe me, you won't get to the hills in time - Hippakontistai are beyond excellent when it comes to riding down fleeing troops.
Pantodopoi, sorry to say are the weakest, eastern discipline combined with poor equipment make a bad soldier, to me they represent a group of men in a city with some basic, basic equipment to defend the city if at dire need, I rarely ever take them into the field with me.
Bootsiuv
09-30-2007, 00:24
The only time I usually use Pantadapoi in any significant numbers is early in the campaign when I can't afford anything better.
They're not very effective, but are capable of pinning an enemy unit long enough for a flank attack, mostly because of they're large unit size (120 on large IIRC).
woad&fangs
09-30-2007, 01:14
I haven't gotten around to playing the Casse yet so I'm not sure if their chariots are actually bad. I remember that a lot of people complained about the brittanian generals in Vannilla Rome. I actually had a lot of success with chariots in vanilla. They were an effective anti cavalry force that could mow down enemy generals units as long as you paid attention and didn't let your chariots stop.
Greek Archers(I think they're toxotai somethingorother) are the worst units in the game. they're like peasants from vanilla that managed to find a few sticks and a piece of string and suddenly thought that they were actually useful to the army. They thought wrong, plus unlike peasants, they only have 60 men per unit so they aren't real useful as garrisons to prevent rebellion.
Schatten
09-30-2007, 01:34
hmm.... celtic chariots and greek archers(toxitai or so) are equal bad, hard to say who of them is worser.
pandapoi have their use as garrison or to hold the enemy in one place so other units can flank them but those 2 units in all way useless any other unit in palce of them is more usefull in any way even the roman accensi more usefull :thumbsdown:
TWFanatic
09-30-2007, 01:39
The simple truth is that light, javelin armed cavalry are not battle winning units. Used correctly, however, they are good auxiliaries (particularly the Thrakian light cavalry). I find them a nice compliment to heavy cavalry. As Makedon, I often deploy my Companions, Thessalians, and prodomai with a light cavalry unit on their flank that can circle around the enemy heavy cavalry after mine deliver there devastating charge and fire missiles into their rear. Then, while the heavy cavalry turn in and roll up the enemy flank, the light cavalry can pursue the enemy cavalry or skirmishers. This system, combined with my solid phalanx line which can hold against anything in time for my cavalry to arrive, has worked flawlessly in my current Makedonian campaign.
Aymar de Bois Mauri
09-30-2007, 01:42
Because they die somehow even faster than the chariots.
And thank god they will be removed...:laugh4:They aren't heavy cavalry, what did you expect? Just excellent skirmisher cavalry that can hold it's own after the enemy is softened enough.
You're using them incorrectly for sure. Never keep them in melee against non-softened units for long.
At least everyone will be agreed which is the worst unit when the next version comes out...
Rodion Romanovich
09-30-2007, 09:40
I second pantodapoi, but how can anyone find akontistai worthless? I used quite a few of them to kill carthie generals and hold the line at critical moments in my Romani campaign (typically in battles where my main legions were away and I had to put together an army out of reserves and garrison troops. Besides, akontistai are excellent garrison troops (large unit size, cheap upkeep).
Bootsiuv
09-30-2007, 09:51
At least everyone will be agreed which is the worst unit when the next version comes out...
You insiders and you're tantalizing tidbits of information....giving us just enough to keep us salivating at the mouth like a pack of rabid dogs.
Damn you, damn you and the entire EB propoganda machine. :P
It's rare that I use the pantodapoi for field battles but they have their uses. To absorb missiles, to fight skirmishers since they are quick enough to catch them. They may have skirmisher stats but their spear has better lethality so they slaughter them. Lets not forget that it takes a pretty good cavalry unit to beat them in a straight fight. They slaughter most light and medium cavalry and cost a fraction of the cost. Even good cavalry takes a while to rip through such a large unit size. I use them to bog down enemy forces or to fight on the flanks, either by flanking or turning the tide of a cavalry duel.
Personally I find the costs of units a bit messed up. Get a better type of a unit and it's increased cost is by far worth it for the quality boost. Once you get Hellenic heavy spear men the regular version just isn't worth the cash. Once you have a better alternative to the pantodapoi there is no reason to have them. You'll only use them if your the Seleucids because you can't make much else in most your empire and need the garrison size. Still, I'll take these guys onto the field if I have nothing better, as long as you don't stick them on the front line they will be more than worth their cost. (which isn't much so you can replace them)
Hellenic archers get my vote for the worst unit. Only use they have is running around the flank and shooting the enemy in the back, which is just cheap so I don't do that... Still I use them, just because it doesn't feel right not to.
I rate javelin cavalry pretty low. All they are to me is a way to get some cavalry on the field if your too poor or under developed to get anything better. But when it comes down to it a shaken or wavering enemy will break if anything hits them in the back and not much is fast enough to flee from them once broken. I like to make them hunt fleeing generals so I don't have to deal with a full body guard next turn.
Hmm, seems I'm just rambling now...
edyzmedieval
09-30-2007, 12:34
Pantodapoi and Toxotai. Actually Akontistai can be sometimes useful.
Also those Celtic Skirmisher cavalry are crap too...
Tellos Athenaios
09-30-2007, 13:06
You insiders and you're tantalizing tidbits of information....giving us just enough to keep us salivating at the mouth like a pack of rabid dogs.
The worst is yet to come... Where EB meets unit X.
@Zarax: ~;)
The Persian Cataphract
09-30-2007, 13:16
I find the likes of Lugoae, Nizag Gund (And Armenian equivalent) Pantodapoi to be utterly worthless, except the Nizag Gund does appear to be marginally better.
Tellos Athenaios
09-30-2007, 13:23
I find the likes of Lugoae, Nizag Gund (And Armenian equivalent) Pantodapoi to be utterly worthless, except the Nizag Gund does appear to be marginally better.
I find the Caucasian spearmen to be rather though light infantry. In my AS campaign; they are the evil people who crush Ptolemaioi FM's... (Seriously, did you ever think they were able to rout a unit of about half their size consisting of seasoned Hetairoi?) And they manage pretty well against swordsmen too: I've had one unit of Caucasian spearment rout a unit of Medium Infantry (I will not reveal it's full name; it's not in the public release)... and all on their own.
The Persian Cataphract
09-30-2007, 13:30
I'm not referring to the Caucasian Spearmen, I meant the Hai Nizagamartik. The Caucasian Spearmen are something of a "These stats are bullshit"-type unit and they are indeed surprisingly resilient.
Tellos Athenaios
09-30-2007, 14:08
Oh, seeing that the Caucasian spearmen cost exactly the same as Pantodapoi in both upkeep and recruitment...
Teleklos Archelaou
09-30-2007, 15:07
At least everyone will be agreed which is the worst unit when the next version comes out...
We even put a lot of effort into it too. Stefan did a great job on it, handling with the delicate care needed for an expensive flower the piece of poop that is that particular unit. :laugh4:
Mediolanicus
09-30-2007, 15:30
Am I the only one who uses celtic chariots as a terror weapon? When the lines are locked I take a unit of those to parade and throw javelins behind the enemy line. The enemy usually breaks just from that.
No, you are not :2thumbsup:
Sure, the Celtic chariots are utterly useless in melee and I don't train them separately, but I make good use of my Casse general units.
I keep them behind my main battle line for the morale boost during the initial clash of armies (and to intercept any light cavalry that might charge into my flacks). When the battle is well under way I bring the chariots to the flanks and charge into the middle of the enemy battle line.
Usually 2 or 3 enemy units start routing immediately, which causes such a drop in morale for the other units, that soon the entire army crumbles apart and flees.
The are also very good at rerouting rallied units.
A Terribly Harmful Name
09-30-2007, 16:40
Not all Psiloi suck. Akontistai and Sphendonatai are good, especially Sphendonatai. If you manage to put a couple of these or Akontistai to shoot behind the enemy line, then they'll do some formidable damage.
Toxotai, on the other hand, are useless crap. Their numbers make them worthless even as fodder. Since there are a lot of Mercenary Toxotai Kretikoi around, along with Eastern Archers if you are a Diadochi, then I never bother to recruit them.
Andronikos
09-30-2007, 16:49
Two words: Equites Ambakaro.
Shouldn't they be elite?
Bootsiuv
09-30-2007, 18:00
LOL @ Teleklos....aah, flowers and poop. The finer things in life....
SwebozGaztiz
09-30-2007, 18:20
.
In cavalry terms, really bad are Hippakontistai and Thraikioi Hippeis. They die like flies. What are they good for after all? Even Curepos (very bad) and Ridoharjoz (not so good at all) are waaaayyy better.
What???? thrikioi hippeis bad??? oh my thats bull they make the best skirmisher support cavalry in the game, they die like flies if you throw them at phalangites or heavy spearmen but you need to learn how to use them, but well i respect your opinion my friend, also i really dont see why youre going to remove the ambakaro epones!!!they make an excellent corps of light cavalry, they have excellent stats and they really know how to fight!!
returning to the topic i guess the eastern skirmishers or the akonkistai really do nothing other than die, also pantadopoi are way too expensive for their stats, and well also i dont think the celtic archers are bad they are similar to the german or baltic archers, and in my sweboz campaign i really use the baltic archers a lot(they look cool!!)i guess you need to learn how to deploy units properly every unit has its use...
Centurio Nixalsverdrus
09-30-2007, 20:09
Yes, every unit has its worth. But unfortunately one only has twenty units in an army, and not a single one more is possible, and thus one has to think twice which kind of cavalry gets the precious place. And for that reason Thraikioi Hippeis are just not enough all-around for me.
To Nizag Gund and Hai Nizagamartik, they are crap but one has to admit that for a unit of their cost and availability, they have a surprisingly good stamina against missiles, especially slingers, due to their wicker shield which seems to be a good absorber.
LusitanianWolf
10-01-2007, 19:22
Yes, every unit has its worth
Agreed.
But I dont like to use EB javelin cavalry (except traikioi and akamparo epones) and Celtic chariots since they are too few to make real damage with javelins (But I usualy play in hard in battles). But they are good enought to distract the enemy.
I dont have much pratice with pantodapoi but I think that even they are good enough to hold a line for some time (the same for other eastern infantry).
All psyloy are good enought to me, toxotai have saved my Epiros campain, and 240 javelins from akontistai can do serious damage, even to my general.
Elephants are awsome in EB, I use them much more now than I used in vannilla or BI. Cant wait for the new skins. :2thumbsup:
Too bad AI cant use them rightly... :shame:
PershsNhpios
10-02-2007, 10:01
Have any of you gracefully brilliant tacticians attempted to use the chariot in the manner a chariot should be used?
They are but overpowered, with one unit I can destroy seven units of Celtic skirmishers.
Before you heap any more criticisms upon the developers, and push them into a conclusion that will push them off their historic perspective, try this:
Line up the unit of chariots with another (Preferably infantry) unit.
Then, simply double click on the other side of that unit, tell the chariots to 'run' through the enemy.
On first contact, as the game as ruled, the chariots will stop and try to commence a melee action.
Don't allow it, keep double clicking constant, and they will soon run straight through, and once they are through the formation, give them a slight reprieve and then force them back through the line again.
Catch the enemy like a fish within a net of chariots, and then you will see the usefulness, and why you can defeat the entire southern-british Eleutheroi with 3 general units...
And I thought I was only moderate in stratagem!
Fair enough if that is how the chariots are meant to be used but I never pause battles and that is just far too much micro management for my tastes.
Therefor my vote for the worst unit still goes to those 2nd rate tricycles.
Digby Tatham Warter
10-02-2007, 15:27
It's the same thing for Nellies, you have to keep em moving, except less micro management for the Nellies, as only javs are 'very' dangerous to them.
The worst is yet to come... Where EB meets unit X.
@Zarax: ~;)
Err...~:confused:
I didn't even post in this thread...
Was it referred to my sig or to some idiotic comment I made about some unit in some other thread?
Lysander13
10-02-2007, 17:15
For me in terms of battlefield effectiveness it has to be the Toxotai. I just don't bother recruiting these poor fellows.
Tellos Athenaios
10-02-2007, 17:17
Err...~:confused:
I didn't even post in this thread...
Was it referred to my sig or to some idiotic comment I made about some unit in some other thread?
Sig. ~;)
jhhowell
10-02-2007, 22:06
Looking at the question from the perspective of what's not worth recruiting, I'd include Velites as contenders. They're decent skirmishers, but by the time they become available Rome is guaranteed access to Akontistai and Peltastai, and very likely can also recruit Numidians. The key qualities of javelin units are unit size and to a lesser extent ammo and range. Velites are IMHO almost as good as Akontistai (more men make better garrisons, more damaging single volleys on the battlefield, Akontistai have better range, and can be recruited and retrained over half the Mediterranean) and decisively inferior to the other two units (Peltasts making up for lower unit size with the versatility of having a viable melee attack and armor). So although their stats are not what one would think of as a "worst unit" contender, placed in context I honestly can't imagine a circumstance when it would make sense for Rome to recruit any Velites.
Of the units previously mentioned, I'd go with Toxotai. Deeply unimpressive.
Sacred Band infantry. Give me the cheaper, more avaible heavy elite phalangites any time. much more cost effective + 2 times more men.
Bootsiuv
10-02-2007, 23:50
Aren't those trained from a temple? I would think they would only be available in 1-2 cities in your empire, unless you build the appropriate temple in every city in your empire. I've not used them much in campaign.
heh, no, they are only trainable in I THINK Carthage, at most the province to the south (the name escapes me).
Digby Tatham Warter
10-03-2007, 07:19
For me in terms of battlefield effectiveness it has to be the Toxotai. I just don't bother recruiting these poor fellows.
Most troops have a use somewhere, I don't use them on the battlefield, but as garrison troops, I use them on the walls(or run them round to the enemy rear)to fire into the back of troops(cheap trick I know, but I can't help my self).
It's those cheap peasant type javelin troops that I can't stand, I've had scraps where the AI fields half of it's stack with them, and my cav go from the flanks sweeping up a thousand plus of the horrible little men, I know their cheap but I like troops to multi task where poss. My jav troops where possible are Thracians because their good support inf(and they look good).
My favourite Faction is AS, their problem is the distances they have to cover, because of this casualties are harder to replace, so I tend to use heavier troops that can come out of the average melee fairly intact.
Yes, all those militia class units are not meant to stand in the main line. Their role is to fight the skirmish battle with the enemy light troops before the 'real soldiers' advance, that they need not to advance through a hail of arrows, missles and stones. The light troops are also used to make the enemy main troops, like Romans and Thureophoroi, throw their javellins on a widespread fromation of Akontistai instead of dense packed formations of Hoplites.
Deployed in that manner also a group of Toxotai backed up by some Pantodapoi can do severe damage to enemy light troops. (The Pantodapoi are used to block enemy cavalry that tries to chase off the archers). But they won't do any remarkable damage to a Phalanx, Hoplites, heavy cavalry or any other decent armoured forces. For that one would need well experienced slingers, and a couple of them.
Now to some units that manage to disapoint me anytime I field them (or even fight them):
Doryphoroi Pontikoi I thought they must be something above militia because they are more expensive than Thureophoroi or Hoplitai. But nope, their conduct is not better than any Pantodapoi or the like. Their higher moral only makes them die standing than die running.
Getikoi Stratiotai Wow, how I was impressed by the parade before the first battle as Getai: horse archers, barbarian shock troops and even phalanx.... After fighting some battles with that army I was very much cooled down. Especially the Stratiotai always suffered severe casulties, regardless against whom they fought. In another campaign I send one of my Pantodapoi Phalangitai frontal against one Getikoi Stratiotai; outcome: the eastern farmer-pikemen just lost a handfull of men, the Getai phalanx was down to 1/4 before it truned and run. BTW, I can't say anything on the Drapanai, because without shield and armour they need a field free of missle units to even get close to the enemy.
Ridóharjoz The only Germanic cavalry, therefore I thougth they would be better than any Celtic or Roman horsemen; but no, anything above Gallic missle cavalry will eat them for breakfast and spit them out again to leave room for lunch.
Hoplitai Haploi I know, they are militia and shouldn't be counted among the 'real fighters'; but the AI is so fond of them that it raises tons of them for the field armies as soon as it can get them. I have even seen Averni stacks that were made of half of Haploi after conquering Massilla, leave alone the Romans as soon as they have one of the Greek cities in the deep south. Now, so far I hadn't any encouter with them as main line in which my main line did not cut through them like through butter.
Digby Tatham Warter
10-03-2007, 12:49
Drapanai, I quite like these fellows, charge as soon as possible, once horns are locked enemy missiles should leave them alone, from our perspective, we might shoot them in the rear, but the AI won't.
I did not had the pleasure to often: in my first battle as Getai my Drapanai were wiped out before getting in contact with the foe (not few by friendly fire :wall: ). Since that experince I a) never raised them again and b) make them a prime target for archers when on encounter with them - so far, I can't recall that I seriously had to fight them in close combat, save for a handfull of survivors.
antisocialmunky
10-04-2007, 05:30
Hoplite Haploi is one of the best milita units in the game IMO. They are tough if engaged head on.
Hoplite Haploi is one of the best milita units in the game IMO. They are tough if engaged head on.
....by other militias or cavalry. Anything else will have no problems with them. They are for sure among the best militias in the game but nothing to make your main line of - what the AI loves to do.
Having only so far played as the Casse, I would have to say Lugoae are the simply useless without any javelins. Even if they only had two or one, they could use superior numbers to offset the result of being used as pincushions. I'd pay extra, just so they were usuable in battles with a few javelins.
As far as cheap levies go, I really like Lugoae, they do pretty well for me.
As far as cheap levies go, I really like Lugoae, they do pretty well for me.
true, i beat an enemy force of phalanxes, slingers, hoplites, thureophoroi, skirmishers and a general (about 8-9 units total) with 5 units of Lugoae when rallying out :sweatdrop:
Rodion Romanovich
10-06-2007, 20:07
Wow! What difficulty was that, and how did you do it? :jawdrop:
I agree that Lugoae are decent enough for what they are intended to do, but I'd really like to see them with some javelins. Generic Celtic warfare seems to be, walk up, javelin some people, get javelined, charge and after that it gets interesting. But Lugoae just stand there and cop it, it would be nice to be able to use them as light reserves that can flank and get some guys in the back before charging. It seems perfectly plausible that they could get some, javelin is essentially just a spear and I'm sure they could get their hands on a few more than one. Just my opinion, I guess.
russia almighty
10-07-2007, 07:39
A hypothetical crappy unit would be Sally the Cataphracted Bactrian Camel ridden by The Persian Cataphract .
I did not had the pleasure to often: in my first battle as Getai my Drapanai were wiped out before getting in contact with the foe (not few by friendly fire :wall: ). Since that experince I a) never raised them again and b) make them a prime target for archers when on encounter with them - so far, I can't recall that I seriously had to fight them in close combat, save for a handfull of survivors.
WOW this is so wrong. This is like complaining Cataphracts are bad units when in fact you use them to charge elite phanlax from the front. Drapanai obviously needs to avoid archers like a plague but they kill EVERYthing else.
WOW this is so wrong. This is like complaining Cataphracts are bad units when in fact you use them to charge elite phanlax from the front. Drapanai obviously needs to avoid archers like a plague but they kill EVERYthing else.
Now, that's the big question: I can avoid elite phalanx with my cavalry but how do I avoid arrows, stones and javelins on an EB battlefield with infantry and still attack the enemy?
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For the Lugoae: It's the same as with the Hoplitai Haploi. They are well in the role they are intended to fullfill but have no business in a real fight. Ever played the Sweboz? The Gaulls' AI will throw stack after stack of those poor guys at you and the majority of them will be butchered on the run. To be fair: before the first reform the Gauls have serious problems in raising much better units.
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Another unit of which I don't realy know what it is good for are the Polybian Triarii: They are weaker in defense than the Camillan version. They have the same armour than the Polybian Principes but don't throw Pila. And they cost more than both units. Their spears make them a good unit against cavalry, but that can be done by Classical Hoplites as well for a much better price (the Romans will be able to raise them in Polybian times).
Now, that's the big question: I can avoid elite phalanx with my cavalry but how do I avoid arrows, stones and javelins on an EB battlefield with infantry and still attack the enemy?
By withholding them until the main lines are joined? Wheel some cavalry around along with the drapanai to keep the archers busy while the falxmen crash into the rear.
For the Lugoae: It's the same as with the Hoplitai Haploi. They are well in the role they are intended to fullfill but have no business in a real fight. Ever played the Sweboz? The Gaulls' AI will throw stack after stack of those poor guys at you and the majority of them will be butchered on the run. To be fair: before the first reform the Gauls have serious problems in raising much better units.
I'd just like them to have a few javelins, that's all. Other than that they are fine.
Another unit of which I don't realy know what it is good for are the Polybian Triarii: They are weaker in defense than the Camillan version. They have the same armour than the Polybian Principes but don't throw Pila. And they cost more than both units. Their spears make them a good unit against cavalry, but that can be done by Classical Hoplites as well for a much better price (the Romans will be able to raise them in Polybian times).
Anyone playing as the Romans can afford to forgo weighing up unit stats in order to have a correct legion. Its your duty as a player of EB. :laugh4:
Anyone playing as the Romans can afford to forgo weighing up unit stats in order to have a correct legion. Its your duty as a player of EB.
You mean by playing around with the EDU :dizzy2:
By withholding them until the main lines are joined? Wheel some cavalry around along with the drapanai to keep the archers busy while the falxmen crash into the rear.
...and crossing fingers that I don't have overseen any missle units. Yes, they may be fine under the correct circumstances, but - either with or against them - I have never been under such circumstances.
Watchman
10-07-2007, 11:21
I usually just shoot up the enemy missile guys first. Or have mean people on horses do something dreadful to them. Getai armies are something you don't want let opponents shoot at too much anyway.
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