Which are better? Makedonia or KH?

[Respenus]

Reading the "Which units are the best" thread, it has come into my mind to ask this question.

Considering both Makedonia and KH use hoplite/phalanx units, which one do you think is best to play with. After I finish with my Romani campaign (with Imperials at the start :embarassed: ), I'll try one of these two factions, and I'd like to know what more experienced players think.

[NeoSpartan]

well.... I tend to do more butt kicking with the Maks that KH in MP. Due to the Maks longer pikes and more numerous pike men.

Also the best of KH cavarly cannot match Hetario. That tends to be a major issue.

However of the 2. I would vote KH as the most challenging and fun.

[Bootsiuv]

They both have their advantages and disadvantages.

The Maks have the sarissa, and their units are relatively large (120 being the standard on large setting, which is higher than the hoplites norm of 80). Like NeoSpartan said, their native cavalry is also superior.

That being said, the KH have some really tough troops. Classical Hoplitai are excellent line-holders, even against the Maks and their sarissas. The cavalry issue is easily solved with Hippeis Thessalonika (Thessalian Medium Cavalry), which are recruitable by both the Maks and KH, and even give Hetairoi a run for their money. KH does have a lack of good archers, but, again, this is easily solved by making Krete a client kingdom, which is relatively close. This gives the KH some of the best infantry in the game IMO (I didn't even mention their generals bodyguard infantry and spartans, both are ruthless, although they do come in smaller sizes), the best archer*, and decent cavalry.

*It's debateable whether Kretan Archers are the best in the game....some will place Indian Longbowmen higher....I think I've even heard some place Syrian archers on the top.

Personally, I think the Kretans are only possibly matched by the indians.

[Xehh II]

KH!

[Respenus]

I didn't expect such a KH response. Yes, they are more challenging, considering that in the beginning they are "limited" and it's hard to expend (I tried fooling around with KH before going to Romani).

Let's wait for some Makedonian lovers :whip:

[Bootsiuv]

Personally, I think Maks have a more challenging opening position than the KH. Being at war with KH, Epeirotes, and Getai right from the start make things tough for the Mak player on the first few turns. Having Phyrrus and his son right on Pella's doorstep and Korinthos rather vulnerable makes the Maks starting positions one of the most intense, challenging, and, therefore, fun, in EB.

That's just my humble opinion, of course. :2thumbsup:

[Lysander13]

In terms of unit roster and potential armies it could put in the field i would definately say the Maks. I enjoy both campaigns and would probably say from the beginning the Maks are in a tighter spot than the KH but both campaigns are alot fun.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

Go Makedonia!

Makedonia has a much more challenging starting position than KH in my opinion. They have a fantastic unit roster, Hetairoi, Thessalian Cavalry, Thraikian Cavalry (best "medium" jack-of-all-trades cavalry ever), very good phalanx, Hypaspistai and Pheraspidai, and access to all kinds of fantastic native troops like Agrianians, Galatians, Syrian & Cretan archers, etc. etc. KH have just their Spartans and all kind of Hoplites, a bit limited roster. Makedonia can get Hoplites too btw.

Makedonia is a very good faction if you want to run a great empire. :yes:

[gran_guitarra]

The Makedonians have possibly the most complete unit roster, excepting the Seleukids.

Overall I would say that the best unit roster goes to the Seleukids, followed by the Makedonians, the Romans, Carthaginians, and then either Baktria or the Aedui.


The Makedonian pikemen are superior to the Koinon Hellenon (and indeed nearly all) "pikemen". Their Cavarly is also superior to the Koinon Hellenon one. The best Makedonian Factional Cavalry is faaaaaaaaar superior to the best Koinon Hellenon Factional Cavalry. The Koinon Hellenon elites and Heavy Spearmen (Spartiatai and Thorakitai) are a little better than the Makedonian ones (Spartiatai have 1 attack/defense more than Hypaspitai), though the debate of Thorakitai vs Pheraspidai is quite open. (Personally I prefer Pheraspidai as an assault unit).

In terms of Regionals the Makedonians again have the upper hand. They have all the same as the Koinon Hellenon, but with the addition of Taxeis Triballoi and Italian units. I think that their recruitment in Galatia might be superior, and the Makedonians do not need to build regional MICs to get the Thraikians, as far as I've been told.

[jhhowell]

The best Makedonian Factional Cavalry is faaaaaaaaar superior to the best Koinon Hellenon Factional Cavalry.

Note, though, that since the AI very rarely builds cavalry the player will have decisive cavalry superiority no matter which faction you pick. In the specific case of KH/Macedon/Epirus, I'd also expect the player's faction to wipe out or neuter both opponents pretty early, so the first enemies where the overall strength of the entire unit roster would matter will likely be Rome and AS.

Anyway, my answer to the title question would be "yes". :beam: Just pick whichever one seems most fun, and that faction is "better" for you.

[MiniMe]

The Makedonians have possibly the most complete unit roster...
Please, let me be your opponent =)


The Makedonian pikemen are superior to the Koinon Hellenon (and indeed nearly all) "pikemen".
IMO, longpike phalanx are a neccesity in one case only - when you're fighting longpike phalanx. No other unit is going to wait for your phalanx frontal attack, opponent'd simply outflank them. In fact, phalanx are very vulnerable, since this unit is the slowest infantry at all. In my Epeiros campaign I was forced to abandon my Pezhetairoi and switch to Samnitici swordsmen & Illirioi Thorakitai when fighting Romani and Karthadastim flexible infantry formations.


Their Cavarly is also superior to the Koinon Hellenon one. The best Makedonian Factional Cavalry is faaaaaaaaar superior to the best Koinon Hellenon Factional Cavalry.
However, KH Hippeis Xystophoroi have far greater AOR than Makedonia Hetaroi, and require level 4 MIC only. For me this is a very serious advantage.


The Koinon Hellenon elites and Heavy Spearmen (Spartiatai and Thorakitai) are a little better than the Makedonian ones (Spartiatai have 1 attack/defense more than Hypaspitai), though the debate of Thorakitai vs Pheraspidai is quite open. (Personally I prefer Pheraspidai as an assault unit).
Thorakitai are more than just assault unit, they are one of the most perfect EB units ever - universal heavy infantry able to stand against anything, be it heavy cavalry or good swordsmen or whatever. And you can recruit them allmost everywhere in hellenistic world. Thorakitai misuse is the greatest Makedon disadvantage IMO.

On the other hand, Makedons can recruit Agrianikoi Pelekephoi. Now that's a fantastic assault infantry, far better than Spartiatai/Pheraspidai, they've BIG CHOPPERS and they can CHOP through anything =)


In terms of Regionals the Makedonians again have the upper hand. They have all the same as the Koinon Hellenon, but with the addition of Taxeis Triballoi and Italian units. I think that their recruitment in Galatia might be superior, and the Makedonians do not need to build regional MICs to get the Thraikians, as far as I've been told.
True for east and wrong for the west, where KH can recruit Hippeis Tarentinoi and Hoplitae Massiliotae.

One more point: classic hoplites. This is a very good level 3 unit, unfortunately Makedon have to build regional MICs to get them and this means 18 more turns and 11400 Mnai.

Best regards
MiniMe

[blank]

well it depends on how you like your battles. Phalanxes are good for a defensive-minded player, but they can get dull - just make a line of phalanxes and then flank with cav/elites. Repeat over and over again. Non-phalanx armies IMO offer much more flexible (and fun) battles and tactics.

One MAJOR disadvantage the KH have though are the regionals - Maks get lots of cool Thracians and Galatians, while KH only get a fraction of those...

[The Wicked]

Well...... Makedonia Rules !!!!!!!!!

[Son of Perun]

Fighting against phalangites with classical hoplites is damn easy. The only advantage of a phalangite is in frontal attack, when it get flanked the battle is over. I think the tighter and smaller formation of classicals is more maneuverable and perfect to focus attack on one flank. Therefore about six units of hoplites are able to clash in one phalangite from every side when the rest of phalangites can just watch the slaughter. I personally used classical hoplites against phalangites successfully for many times.

[Tellos Athenaios]

KH offers more alround troops; Makedonia offers more specialist units. Both armies rely on powerful infantry with flexibility for KH and powerful cavalry for Makedonia.

Makedonia requires the player to have a much more rapid response on the battle field: especially with some of the new (eastern) regional infantry untis you can't simply afford to let them hit your flanks (they will chew right through your pezhetairoi), and the somewhat inflexible phalanx simply doesn't perfom well when outflanked.

KH can go with a more laid back approach to war: you only mount quick (raiding) campaigns, you have one of the most flexible yet still though, reliable unit rosters as far as infantry goes; and you will be typically not needing heavy cavalry to badly where you are going. (It's a bad idea to chase semi-nomadic cavalry of Chersonesos Taurike with Hetairoi for instance; and you can go perfectly well against Roman/Celtic cavalry with your Hippeis Xystophoroi.)

The amount of regionals you can supplement your army with will be larger when you play as Makedonia, still you will be lacking those wonderful heavy infantry corpses called Thorakitai. (This will be your main military concern as Makedonia: ensuring that you have some though and reliable heavy infantry to guard the flanks who in turn need to be heavily armoured as well. And apart from some regionals those troops will have to be shipped from Thrace each and every time. And add to this that the only non-Thracian units of equal or greater power will be more expensive, and equally limitted in AOR.)

There is this one thing which really is to the benefit of Makedonia: you will be relatively much better equipped to take on the AS, who can field numerous armies. And this then is the typical benefit of a pike-phalanx: you can hold/pin very many enemies in front of you with comparatively few men of your own.

[Horst Nordfink]

Makedonia kick arse! They are the best faction in the game in my opinion.

[gran_guitarra]

Please, let me be your opponent =)


IMO, longpike phalanx are a neccesity in one case only - when you're fighting longpike phalanx. No other unit is going to wait for your phalanx frontal attack, opponent'd simply outflank them. In fact, phalanx are very vulnerable, since this unit is the slowest infantry at all. In my Epeiros campaign I was forced to abandon my Pezhetairoi and switch to Samnitici swordsmen & Illirioi Thorakitai when fighting Romani and Karthadastim flexible infantry formations.



Which is why you put untis like Agrianikoi Pelekephoi and Pheraspidai/Hypaspitai on the flanks just behind your phalanx. They cannot flank you because they risk being surrounded by your units, so they have to either take those casualties and hope they break your phalanx before your Assault units break them, or fight you from the front.



However, KH Hippeis Xystophoroi have far greater AOR than Makedonia Hetaroi, and require level 4 MIC only. For me this is a very serious advantage.



And Makedonia can recruit Hippies Thessalikoi from a level 4 MIC, which are vastly superior to Hyppeis Xystophoroi. So even at the same MIC level my cavalry is superior, and at the last MIC level it is infinitely superior.



Thorakitai are more than just assault unit, they are one of the most perfect EB units ever - universal heavy infantry able to stand against anything, be it heavy cavalry or good swordsmen or whatever. And you can recruit them allmost everywhere in hellenistic world. Thorakitai misuse is the greatest Makedon disadvantage IMO.


Well there is the problem that Thorakitai, for all their vaunted power, cannot stand up to Hypaspitai, Pheraspidai, or Argianikoi Pelekephoi. If I put them on my flanks that means that you have no real choice but to fight my phalanxes head on. If you don't I just wheel my phalanxes and crunch you between them and the assaulters on my flanks. Taxeis Triballoi are also as good, as Thorakitai, and just slightly cheaper. Though you do have to build a lvl 4 regional MIC.



True for east and wrong for the west, where KH can recruit Hippeis Tarentinoi and Hoplitae Massiliotae.

One more point: classic hoplites. This is a very good level 3 unit, unfortunately Makedon have to build regional MICs to get them and this means 18 more turns and 11400 Mnai.

Yeah, but why would I want to get them when I can have Agrianikoi Pelekephoi from my factional MIC? Correct me if I am wrong, but those guys are faaaaaaaaaaar superior to the Hoplites thanks to their mobility, speed, javelins, and axes (which are effective against armor). So what if you get Hoplitai? I get something better, and I believe that they are at the same level MIC.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

Makedonia requires the player to have a much more rapid response on the battle field: especially with some of the new (eastern) regional infantry untis you can't simply afford to let them hit your flanks (they will chew right through your pezhetairoi), and the somewhat inflexible phalanx simply doesn't perfom well when outflanked.
Everybody knows that Pezhetairoi need a flank guard, and so everybody does - Thureophoroi are normally sufficient for that task, and you can train them in many places up to Seleukeia.



KH can go with a more laid back approach to war: you only mount quick (raiding) campaigns, you have one of the most flexible yet still though, reliable unit rosters as far as infantry goes; and you will be typically not needing heavy cavalry to badly where you are going. (It's a bad idea to chase semi-nomadic cavalry of Chersonesos Taurike with Hetairoi for instance; and you can go perfectly well against Roman/Celtic cavalry with your Hippeis Xystophoroi.)
Yes, but it's not a Hetairos' task to chase horse archers - one could perfectly leave it to Prodromoi or for instance Illyrioi Hippeis.



IMO, longpike phalanx are a neccesity in one case only - when you're fighting longpike phalanx. No other unit is going to wait for your phalanx frontal attack, opponent'd simply outflank them. In fact, phalanx are very vulnerable, since this unit is the slowest infantry at all. In my Epeiros campaign I was forced to abandon my Pezhetairoi and switch to Samnitici swordsmen & Illirioi Thorakitai when fighting Romani and Karthadastim flexible infantry formations.
One doesn't attack with a phalanx, one lets the enemy attack. Plus, just like almost every other troop type, the phalanx can't win the battle unsupported. Some of your Illyrioi Thorakitai surely could have made the day guarding your phalanxes' flanks. Also I must recommend a reserve line, with which you can extend your battle line to a slight C-shape to protect your flanks.

[AntiochusIII]

Makedonia kick arse! They are the best faction in the game in my opinion.I prefer the Seleukids, but they are a very close second!

Companions FTW!

Makedonia beats the snobby Greeks hands down. Phalanx warfare is kinda boring without the horsemen to spice it up on the sides.

A very complete roster, a very interesting strategic situation at the start (threatened on all sides and with enough army to fight back), and the sense of creating a true Empire from scratch (something the Seleukids, Ptolemies, and other larger, more established factions don't necessarily make you feel -- for the Seleukids it felt more like reconquest :sweatdrop: ) all make for a very enjoyable game.

I kept wondering half the time why my cities hadn't started fighting each other already like they always do when I was playing the Hellenes. Unless of course there are some in-game events (advisor message, flashy end-turn message, whatever) that tells me that a Spartan or an Athenian coup d'etat has taken place and the alliance had become an equivalent of the Delian League.

...actually now that I mention it that sounds like a good idea; say, when you took Pella the victorious general will get a trait mentioning that he could now make himself and his polis the Hegemon of the League.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Which is why you put untis like Agrianikoi Pelekephoi and Pheraspidai/Hypaspitai on the flanks just behind your phalanx. They cannot flank you because they risk being surrounded by your units, so they have to either take those casualties and hope they break your phalanx before your Assault units break them, or fight you from the front.

If we are talking multiplayer; yes I suppose so. But against the AI it's a perfect waste of money to use your valuable elites/agrianikoi on the flanks. That's what you've got your Thorakitai/Thureophoroi for. Especially when you are facing a missile based army you will suffer if you chose Agrianikoi instead.


And Makedonia can recruit Hippies Thessalikoi from a level 4 MIC, which are vastly superior to Hyppeis Xystophoroi. So even at the same MIC level my cavalry is superior, and at the last MIC level it is infinitely superior.

So can the KH. So that renders this null and void, IMHO. And IIRC there is only one successor state which has even a somewhat decent AOR for Hetairoi: the AS. (Only 5 settlements on the entire map.)


Well there is the problem that Thorakitai, for all their vaunted power, cannot stand up to Hypaspitai, Pheraspidai, or Argianikoi Pelekephoi. If I put them on my flanks that means that you have no real choice but to fight my phalanxes head on. If you don't I just wheel my phalanxes and crunch you between them and the assaulters on my flanks. Taxeis Triballoi are also as good, as Thorakitai, and just slightly cheaper. Though you do have to build a lvl 4 regional MIC.

Yes but, no, :gah:, depends.

Yes, but: Thorakitai can not stand against your beloved ELITES; so, what? That's not quite what they're made for apart from the fact that such troops at the flanks mean you are unable to field many armies at the same time. Hypaspistai and Pheraspidai are not your every day soldiers on the flanks.

No: there are many all relatively easy ways to force you to disrupt formation. Especially sphendonetai are quite good at killing your elite units. And if you are using Agrianikoi on the flanks in such an occasion, chances are they will contain more lead after the battle than if they were shot with a machine gun.

Also: consider the Thorakitai Hoplitai. Those are some nasty breed, of just about the same quality as Hypaspistai/Pheraspidai.

Depends: as said before your Taxeis Triballoi will have to be shipped from a handful of regions each and every time; Thorakitai have a far wider AOR. In effect the Thorakitai will cost less to get them to the field; and against the typical AI flanking troops (cavalry) they will perform better.


Yeah, but why would I want to get them when I can have Agrianikoi Pelekephoi from my factional MIC? Correct me if I am wrong, but those guys are faaaaaaaaaaar superior to the Hoplites thanks to their mobility, speed, javelins, and axes (which are effective against armor). So what if you get Hoplitai? I get something better, and I believe that they are at the same level MIC.

Massaliotai are a cross over between Celtic & Hellenistic influences. Do not underestimate their skill with their swords. Also, heavy skirmisher cavalry is not something to brush aside easily either: they are the single most effective cavalry against the inevitable hordes of rebels you will encounter; and they have many nasty surprises in store for any foe. You just need to become familiar with them; but if you can use Hippakontistai to such an effect that they can break the (rebel) enemy - Tarantinoi will be a truly formidable cavalry indeed.

[Tellos Athenaios]

But as posted before: nothing beats the AS. ~;)

[Tellos Athenaios]

Everybody knows that Pezhetairoi need a flank guard, and so everybody does - Thureophoroi are normally sufficient for that task, and you can train them in many places up to Seleukeia.

So we agree then that you can not afford to be as laid back in your approach to battle as the Makedonians? 'Cause that was and is my entire point.


Yes, but it's not a Hetairos' task to chase horse archers - one could perfectly leave it to Prodromoi or for instance Illyrioi Hippeis.

So again, we agree? 'Cause my entire point was and is that you don't need such heavy cavalry where you are going as the KH. (At least for the very most part of the game.) No need to have access to Hetairoi style units, if you can't put them to good use for most of the game - is there?

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

So we agree then that you can not afford to be as laid back in your approach to battle as the Makedonians? 'Cause that was and is my entire point.
I agree, their major flaw is that they need attention on the flanks.



So again, we agree? 'Cause my entire point was and is that you don't need such heavy cavalry where you are going as the KH. (At least for the very most part of the game.) No need to have access to Hetairoi style units, if you can't put them to good use for most of the game - is there?
Well, that limits your gameplay a bit - KH is not exactly the born world-dominator. Which makes them not so interesting for me, bearing in mind that your faction's goals can change in the course of time. Besides that, it's always good to be prepared for everything (except horse archers, you can't be prepared for horse archers).

[woad&fangs]

I have'nt played either yet but I would assume that the maks would be better since I have played as the Epirotes and I soundly beat the greeks just using the "my spear is longer than your spear" strategy. That said, I find the different designs on the hoplites shields to be absolutely beautiful. I'll probably play as the KH before the Maks simply for that reason.

[Spoofa]

That said, I find the different designs on the hoplites shields to be absolutely beautiful. I'll probably play as the KH before the Maks simply for that reason.


PAH, just the words you would expect from an art loving Athenian.

[woad&fangs]

PAH, just the words you would expect from an art loving Athenian.
It's more fun to beat your enemies with pretty troops. Then you can rub it in their 2d faces that they got beat by troops that are more obsessed with what brand of shield wax is in that season than how to form a phalanx. To make it even more humiliating for the AI, those troops are commanded by a guy who calls himself Waldinger and likes the color purple. Ya know what, I'm going to go start a KH campaign right now.

[gran_guitarra]

If we are talking multiplayer; yes I suppose so. But against the AI it's a perfect waste of money to use your valuable elites/agrianikoi on the flanks. That's what you've got your Thorakitai/Thureophoroi for. Especially when you are facing a missile based army you will suffer if you chose Agrianikoi instead.


No, it is not. Firstly, you place your elites on the flank, behind the phalanxes there. This way they are protected from missile units that can hit them, and can function as flank guards for your phalanx. What you do is wait until the enemy is completely involved in fighting your phalanx, then you charge them around the side and surround their flank units. After that a cavalry charge or two breaks them and initiates a chain reaction. I've used that tactic many many times with a very large degree of sucess.



So can the KH. So that renders this null and void, IMHO. And IIRC there is only one successor state which has even a somewhat decent AOR for Hetairoi: the AS. (Only 5 settlements on the entire map.)


Uuuuuum, no. They need a Regional MIC, and then its only in Demetrias. The Makedonians get them in Pella and Demetrias, from their factional MIC, which gives them the advantage.



Yes but, no, :gah:, depends.

Yes, but: Thorakitai can not stand against your beloved ELITES; so, what? That's not quite what they're made for apart from the fact that such troops at the flanks mean you are unable to field many armies at the same time. Hypaspistai and Pheraspidai are not your every day soldiers on the flanks.


No, two elite units on one flank and assaulters on the other will not keep me from fielding many armies. Especially if I control northern Greece, Thraikia, and Illyria. The whole point is that the Hypaspitai and Pheraspidai make incredible flank guards, and can turn into flankers to create a massive slaughterhouse on the enemy flanks, which causes a nasty route after a cavalry charge or two, and then your phalanxes turn the center into a bobbing for enemies game.
[QUOTE]
No: there are many all relatively easy ways to force you to disrupt formation. Especially sphendonetai are quite good at killing your elite units. And if you are using Agrianikoi on the flanks in such an occasion, chances are they will contain more lead after the battle than if they were shot with a machine gun.

That is why you place them behind the phalanxes. The slingers will target/hit the phalanxes because of the limits of the engines. So barely any stones will hit, and of those a very small percent will actually damage a unit or two.


Also: consider the Thorakitai Hoplitai. Those are some nasty breed, of just about the same quality as Hypaspistai/Pheraspidai.

Depends: as said before your Taxeis Triballoi will have to be shipped from a handful of regions each and every time; Thorakitai have a far wider AOR. In effect the Thorakitai will cost less to get them to the field; and against the typical AI flanking troops (cavalry) they will perform better.

Very valid points (wtf are the Thorakitai Hoplitai? I though that the only unit the KH had on level with Hypaspitai/Pheraspidai was Spartiatai Hoplitai. Nevertheless, I can switch to auxiliaries such as the Triballoi, Samnitici Milites in Italia, and Nudists/Heavy Spearmen in Turkey.
Even so, I see that you have an excellent point.
[QUOTE
Massaliotai are a cross over between Celtic & Hellenistic influences. Do not underestimate their skill with their swords. Also, heavy skirmisher cavalry is not something to brush aside easily either: they are the single most effective cavalry against the inevitable hordes of rebels you will encounter; and they have many nasty surprises in store for any foe. You just need to become familiar with them; but if you can use Hippakontistai to such an effect that they can break the (rebel) enemy - Tarantinoi will be a truly formidable cavalry indeed.
Was this directed at me? and why the heck would I care about Massiliotes? They are even farther away than the Triballoi, and require the same MIC, while being available in only one city. I can see how they would be valuable to Rome, Epeiros, or any of the Gallic factions, but the KH?

[MiniMe]

Gran_guitarra, I'm going to sleep now and I'd like to continue tomorrow.

Somebody, please, enlighten me - do we talk about MP rooster superiority only or we are taking into consideration areas of recruitment, starting positions and all that stuff?

One more thing before I disappear:
2 Tellos Athenaios:
AS are natural born losers! =P Baktria forever!!!

[Bootsiuv]

Baktria vs. AS must be a good MP game....

I've always assumed what we were talking about was singleplayer. I'm enjoying the debate between the KH camp and the Mak camp.

I prefer the KH, but am well aware of the fact that the Makedonians have one of the most complete and balanced rosters of any faction. They're far better on paper.

I do think the KH infantry should not be underestimated, and this is something many Mak fans seem to be doing. A hoplite army supported by thuerophoroi is formidable enough to hold it's own. Throwing in Kretan Archers (which, admittedly don't play a big role in the KH/Mak war, unless you hire some Kretan Mercs....Krete is just too low of a priority in the beginning. Demetrias and its cavalry are far more important), and it's a force I would take up against Polybian Romans or an Early AS army with confidence.

Later on, regionals become more important to the Koinon, this is undoubtedly true.

With the advent of Iphikrates Hoplitai, things become more even still. Admittedly, KH never have units with Pikes as long as Sarissas, the Iphikrates carry the shorter pike....I think it's something like 8 ft, as opposed to the Maks 12 (or is it 15) ft sarissa.

The reason I've been emphasizing classical hoplite warfare with the maks is because, by the time Iphikrates reforms happen i.e. you build the necessary MIC's, the war with Makedonia will probably be over and done with.

Maks have the superior forces, but KH have other advantages which shouldn't be underestimated.

In multiplayer, KH is obviously screwed.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Well, that limits your gameplay a bit - KH is not exactly the born world-dominator. Which makes them not so interesting for me, bearing in mind that your faction's goals can change in the course of time. Besides that, it's always good to be prepared for everything (except horse archers, you can't be prepared for horse archers).

Horse archers... Well both Makedonia & KH have excellent Anti Horse archer units now I come to think of it: sphendonetai. Add in a bunch of eastern mercs/regionals to supplement you with some quick & cheap fire power... :shrug:

(Oh, they have been previewed alright, so I can tell you this: in the next release the KH will get another regional from their factional MICs in the Bosphoran regions. They should make excellent HA killers.)

[Tellos Athenaios]

No, it is not. Firstly, you place your elites on the flank, behind the phalanxes there. This way they are protected from missile units that can hit them, and can function as flank guards for your phalanx. What you do is wait until the enemy is completely involved in fighting your phalanx, then you charge them around the side and surround their flank units. After that a cavalry charge or two breaks them and initiates a chain reaction. I've used that tactic many many times with a very large degree of sucess.

I bet you did. I do not argue that you can not USE elite troops/assault troops on your flanks. The only thing I argue is that it's a perfect waste of money and recruitment power; adds in a lot of extra administrative hassle. And I don't really see how you are going to support a multi front war when you insist on having elite troops on the flanks at all time; especially so because of the added turns it requires you to bring them to the field (because of the shipping distance).


Uuuuuum, no. They need a Regional MIC, and then its only in Demetrias. The Makedonians get them in Pella and Demetrias, from their factional MIC, which gives them the advantage.

Oh, oh are you so very mistaken: they perform as mercs all over the area. Which is why I think this argument is null and void.



No, two elite units on one flank and assaulters on the other will not keep me from fielding many armies. Especially if I control northern Greece, Thraikia, and Illyria. The whole point is that the Hypaspitai and Pheraspidai make incredible flank guards, and can turn into flankers to create a massive slaughterhouse on the enemy flanks, which causes a nasty route after a cavalry charge or two, and then your phalanxes turn the center into a bobbing for enemies game.

As I said before, sure they can. Mind you: so can the Thorakitai Hoplitai; the Iphikratous Hoplitai; Thorakitai; Thureophoroi; and Peltastai. Easily. Especially Thorakitai Hoplitai and Iphikratous Hoplitai will come out of this very succesfully since they can "ram" & roll up your battle line by virtue of phalanx formation. (I myself have been very succesful at anihilating AS armies that way when I wasn't the addicted AS player I am now.)


That is why you place them behind the phalanxes. The slingers will target/hit the phalanxes because of the limits of the engines. So barely any stones will hit, and of those a very small percent will actually damage a unit or two.

I think you've misunderstood my point: I would go about and use the sphendonetai as flankers. They will keep their distance from your line; and they will be supported by a unit or two of spearmen (if you would simply send in your cavalry; I could rely on the Caucasian Light infantry for the job; they absolutely love Hetairoi for breakfast :grin: And cost the same as Pantodapoi; pity the AI can't use them properly) I was thinking of Thorakitai.

You may smash one flank; but it'll be end of the game for your cavalry that way. This is how I go about and crush the endless hordes of AI stacks everybody has to face sooner or later.


Very valid points (wtf are the Thorakitai Hoplitai? I though that the only unit the KH had on level with Hypaspitai/Pheraspidai was Spartiatai Hoplitai.

Thorakitai Hoplitai are the standard KH troops of the level of Hypaspistai (and if you ask me they are even better than Pheraspidai/Hypaspistai). The only other faction to have such a unit is the Ptolemaioi: called the Basilikon Agema. (Those were the guys who were one of the major factors leading to the disaster (for the Seleukides that is) at Rhaphia.) A heavy version of Iphikratous Hoplitai; armoured in chain mail and basically the most brutal the KH can get. That is, till the new units are in the public release. Those Epilektoi...


Nevertheless, I can switch to auxiliaries such as the Triballoi, Samnitici Milites in Italia, and Nudists/Heavy Spearmen in Turkey.
Even so, I see that you have an excellent point.

Your heavy spearmen are actually a notch weaker than the Hypaspistai; and your Nudists are available to the KH as well. (As are the Samnitici Milites.) So I wouldn't count on them. ~;)


Was this directed at me? and why the heck would I care about Massiliotes? They are even farther away than the Triballoi, and require the same MIC, while being available in only one city. I can see how they would be valuable to Rome, Epeiros, or any of the Gallic factions, but the KH?

I thought your last statement about Hoplitai compared to Agrianikoi Peluklephoroi was about the Massalitotai. But I should've read more carefully. :shame: Anyhow those are some troops which are not to be ignored. And yes, they are very valuable to the KH because they will be typically the best regional troops in cost/effectiveness that are to be found in a very wide area and thus a very majore portion of your game. (FYI: The KH has to acquire Massalia and Arse.)

////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Anyhow apart from all this disagreeing with each other; bear in mind that I don NOT think the KH has a BETTER military than Makedonia has.

My very first & long post in this thread was just some observations of mine towards both militaries. I happen to feel that both militaries pale before the infinitely more interesting & wide range of possibilities the AS has to offer.
The only reason why I actually stick to argumenting pro KH is that some Makedonian lovers have made numerous weak (and to a certain extent downright flawed) arguments for "their" case.

Read Bootsiuv's post. :yes:

[Respenus]

~:eek: ~:eek: ~:eek:

I'm sorry I asked the question.

No, not really, it's good to see someone with arguments. Well, with EB 1 coming out pretty soon, looks like KH or Makedonia will have to wait.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

Horse archers... Well both Makedonia & KH have excellent Anti Horse archer units now I come to think of it: sphendonetai. Add in a bunch of eastern mercs/regionals to supplement you with some quick & cheap fire power... :shrug:
Maybe I do something wrong but Sphendonetai usually die faster than you can watch it, because the AI rightfully tends to concentrate their fire on them. And the non-existance of armour contributes greatly to that. I think the best anti-horse archer unit is light cavalry, combined perhaps with Pezhetairoi in Phalanx-mode to absorb the ammunition. ~D They are great in absorbing.

Btw, when you do flanking maneuvers, does the AI always send out an infantry unit that tries to chase after your cavalry? I find this extremely annoying. The enemy units get distracted and after you crushed the main force, you have work left in overthrowing wide-spread single units any hint to avoid this? Especially I can't think of how to get over that behaviour when you flank with Sphendonetai as you proposed.



(Oh, they have been previewed alright, so I can tell you this: in the next release the KH will get another regional from their factional MICs in the Bosphoran regions. They should make excellent HA killers.)
I think you are talking of Thureophoroi Toxotai?

[carthage_supreme]

MK's units are superior to HK in every aspect but flexibility. If Mk wasn't busy harboring those annoying toothsticks , epeirotes and getai MK would crush the HK and have there foundations crashing down upon them.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Maybe I do something wrong but Sphendonetai usually die faster than you can watch it, because the AI rightfully tends to concentrate their fire on them. And the non-existance of armour contributes greatly to that. I think the best anti-horse archer unit is light cavalry, combined perhaps with Pezhetairoi in Phalanx-mode to absorb the ammunition. ~D They are great in absorbing.

But Horse archers lack the ammunition: you've got to tie them into a steady missile exchange. Horse archers will die even faster; but you NEED to supplement your sphendonetai with Eastern/Cretan Archers.


Btw, when you do flanking maneuvers, does the AI always send out an infantry unit that tries to chase after your cavalry? I find this extremely annoying. The enemy units get distracted and after you crushed the main force, you have work left in overthrowing wide-spread single units any hint to avoid this? Especially I can't think of how to get over that behaviour when you flank with Sphendonetai as you proposed.

If you use light troops in front of your heavy infantry support then the AI will send it's cavalry. Which you promptly slaughter with your supportive heavy infantry. Problem solved. ~;)


I think you are talking of Thureophoroi Toxotai?

Almost: Thureopherontes Toxotai. But both names would mean the same, btw.

[Bootsiuv]

I decided to fire up EB for the first time in a few weeks today, so I could look over the save game for our KH succession game.

Feeling somewhat inspired by the recent discussions in this thread, I decided to fire up my own little KH game just for fun....everyone was asleep for once as an added bonus. Aaaah, peace and quiet.

First turn - I pulled the entire spartan garrison save the governor and combined them with the hegemons troops, and lay siege to korinthos. Since this game was for fun, I decided to live life on the edge and attack Chalkis on the first turn with the entire athenian garrison save one hoplitai Haploi, so Antigonus can't just walk into my most important city.

Second Turn - With two of his cities under siege, Antigonus still heads north to save Pella. Korinthos and Chalkis fall on turn 2. The end of the Maks is already in sight.

Over the next two years, I consolidated my position and built an improved MIC in Athenai. Money was abundant, and I was able to train quite a formidable force by 269 BC.

The following spring I invaded Thessalonica, and layed siege to Demetrias.

This is what the Maks had as their primary force in the region...

https://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z118/Bootsiuv_2007/MAK1.jpg

If you'll notice, the Maks have three divisions of Hoplites i.e. 240 at full strength....they only have ~300 Phalangites. Aside from the Prodromoi, I fail to see anything which is all that impressive.

Given my ample resources (and the fact I was able to get over 20000 in diplomacy from the Epeirotes paying for an alliance, and the AS desperately wanting peace for some reason), I was able to create a force which was hardly inferior to what Antigonos could muster...

https://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z118/Bootsiuv_2007/kh.jpg

Easily enough to deal with an early Mak army, and Iphikrates Hoplites and Thuerophoroi were only six months away, after I invested over 10000 in the Athenian MIC's.

It's almost too easy...

Is Antigonus scripted to go north or something (which I don't even think is possible)? Maybe Phyrrus should be placed further away from Pella? He obviously sees the Epeirotes near his capital as the greater threat, and has gone north in every kh game I've ever played. Just a little predictable, is all.

I was also able to invest in retraining most of my troops in sparte for the experience bonus and/or athenai for the arms/armor bonus. I also invested over 13000 in mercenary forces. All of this by turn 16.

If you ask me, the KH early game may be amongst the easiest in the game. It's they're mid-game where things start to get tough.

Strangely enough, they start out with only 3000 in the bank, which is one of the lowest starting treasuries in the game AFAIK.

[Tellos Athenaios]

AFAIK we have no scripted moves incorporated. However there's this guys Pyrrhos standing on the doorstep of Antigonos' palace -such things tend to make the AI a bit nervous - and Pyrrhos faces about the same problem with both the Romans (Taras) and he has rebels nearby as well. (Which is another target the Mak AI tends to go for: driving off the one rebel army representing some Aeolian league forces...

[konny]

In campaign KH has the serious advantage of their elite foot guards. Two or three family members can take Kornith and Chalkis more or less on their own within a few turns. As well as two family members alone can prevent Makedonia from storming Athens: the Maks have nothing in their starting armies to clear the walls from those men - and without that they can't bring in their superior cavalry.

I just 'came across them': to get a unit of 100 Greek bodyguard down I needed

- 162 Triarii
- 162 Hoplitai
- 240 Peltastai
- 162 Principes
-----------------------------
= 726 good men, including elite

all together, and with not few casulties.


So KH, a player who forgets about management, unrest and the like duties and drafts any and all family member in his army will be able to blitz Makedonia. Makedonia, on the other hand, can't do anything the like, as long as KH is not so kind to offer all her men in an open battle; or fair enough to wait until Makedonia is able to raise elite infantry as well.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

That's what I tell you all the time. The KH is overpowered! Although they seem have the inferior roster... Thanks for the explanation btw Tellos.~:)

[NeoSpartan]

That's what I tell you all the time. The KH is overpowered! Although they seem have the inferior roster... Thanks for the explanation btw Tellos.~:)

LOL!!!!!!!

[abou]

Thorakitai Hoplitai are the standard KH troops of the level of Hypaspistai (and if you ask me they are even better than Pheraspidai/Hypaspistai). The only other faction to have such a unit is the Ptolemaioi: called the Basilikon Agema. (Those were the guys who were one of the major factors leading to the disaster (for the Seleukides that is) at Rhaphia.) A heavy version of Iphikratous Hoplitai; armoured in chain mail and basically the most brutal the KH can get. That is, till the new units are in the public release. Those Epilektoi...Actually, the Basilikon Agema were part of the wing routed by Antiochos in his initial charge.:smash:

[gran_guitarra]

Your kidding right?

Your talking about Epilektoi Hoplitai? The ones that can form a phalanx, have short spears, chain mail, and are generally just an upped version of Iphikratous Hoplitai?
Those guys get creamed by Argyraspidai, and I'm pretty sure that they cannot get recruited before them. Same thing with Basilikon Agema. Their stats are inferior to the Argyraspidai and there are less of them.

btw, isn't it wierd that the Ptolemaic elite phalanx has stats worse than Pezhetairoi? They have something like 14 attack and 20 defense, whereas Pezhetairoi have 15 attack and 20 defense.
Just thought I'd point out that a Ptolemaic elite unit should have more punch than a Makedonian/Seleukid regular trooper.


Like I said, the only place where the KH are better than the Makedonians is in elites, since the Spartiatai are only inferior to the Vascii Shock Troops and their knockoffs. Everywhere else, phalanxes, assault troops, flankers, cavalry, the Makedonians are superior.

[Bootsiuv]

I don't think anyone is arguing with you on that.

I think they were referring to Thorakitai Hoplitai. The Epilektoi are the KH's current bodyguard unit if I'm not mistaken.

[abou]

@gran_guitarra

That was a stats issue. There was a mess up and the stats have been corrected.