Karthdastim vs romani

[carthage_supreme]

Who do you think is better , got inspired by the "which are better?" thread.

[Bootsiuv]

While, personally I like Qarthadastim....the Romani seem to have superior forces in Camillian/Polybian times, and almost assuredly do during Marian/Augustan times.

The Qarthadastim do have a flexible roster with several bad ass units.

The Romani just piss me off. I have yet to play a serious Romani campaign in EB. I think I was Romand out, so to speak, after vanilla.

[Admetos]

They both have very good unit rosters in different ways. Carthage has some strong factional troops, eg. the sacred bands, but relies heavily on regionals while away on campaign, and possibly has the widest range of regionals in the game. The Romans on the other hand, use more factional troops, although they can still recruit some strong auxilia, and have some of the best heavy infantry in the game, I mean after the marians, thier rank and file legionaries and stand up to most elites. On whos better, its tough, the carthagians have alot more flexibilty with the amount of troops they can recruit, and obviously have stronger cavalry than the romans, but the roman infantry can power through most things when well supported. As tight as it is, I think I would have to say the romans are ever so slightly stronger.

[Bava]

Who do you think is better?

Easy. Baktria. ~D



I think it comes down to if you´re roleplaying or not. Quart Hadasht has more and better elites - i wont even mention the :charge: - but if you limit yourself to historically plausible stacks (just two or three elite infantry units, rest mercs and medium) a good (polybian/marian) roman army will give you a run for your money.

[Bootsiuv]

Every Qarthadastim campaign I've ever had, I've let myself get embroiled in war with the Romani before any of my elites were available. Damn Sicily and my inability to just let lands go....

Trying to fight Hastati/Principes/Triarii and the Samnite and those damn extraordinary units is a real bitch when all you have is Lucanian Light Infantry and the likes....shipping good Iberians to Italy is nonsense in the early game, and Kart Hadast requires a lot of money before you can even build the Dorkim dudes (the heavy variety).

[Centurion Crastinus]

I think that they are both pretty good, especially when Qarthadastim uses elite units. I lost a whole polybian army to Qarthadastim in Spain. I consider myself a decent enough player and any time the AI outsmarts me and defeats me when I am supposed to have a 1:1 ratio with them thoroughly impresses me.

[gran_guitarra]

It depends on the Roman Military Era.

In the Camillan Era:

The Karthadastim are superior in every aspect. Their medium Hoplites/Spearmen are better than Hastati/Principes and can easily hold their own against them. The Heavy Spearmen can easily match Triarii and Extraordinarii, as can the Iberian Assault Infantry. Their cavalry is slightly better than the Roman versions (remember the Romans have Extraordinarii cavalry), but does what it does better. The fact that the Carthaginians have excellent medium, heavy, and light cavalry adds to this fact. Their true elites, the Pikemen, Sacred Band, and Afrikan Infantry are far superior to anything the Romans can field , and slightly superior to the Samnites.
This means that the Carthaginians can easily defeat the Romans in the Camillan Military Era, giving them a big advantage in the early years of the game.

In the Polybian Era:

Things really don't change much. The Romans lose Samnite Militants, giving the carthaginians complete elite superiority. The Carthaginian Heavy Spear/Hoplite/Assault units are still better than the Roman ones, as is their Cavalry.
The Romans even things out, but they are still inferior to the Carthaginians in this Era.

In the Marian Era:
By now the Romans have the advantage. At this time you should have a huge recruitment pool, the resources to use it, superior elites, equal heavies, and excellent medium/heavy cavalry through Auxiliary units. You should also have some very nice Auxiliary units within your provinces.

By now the Romans have the advantage and should easily keep it.

In the Augustan Era:

If Carthage is still alive by this time,
Shoot yourself. In the foot.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

I think till we totally get the north african regional unit roster filled out that the carthies will still take a #2 slot to the romani. They are one of the first sets of things I think that we should really start knocking out once this next release is out the door, or at least that is what I hear around the mod.

[Bootsiuv]

It depends on the Roman Military Era.

In the Camillan Era:

The Karthadastim are superior in every aspect. Their medium Hoplites/Spearmen are better than Hastati/Principes and can easily hold their own against them. The Heavy Spearmen can easily match Triarii and Extraordinarii, as can the Iberian Assault Infantry. Their cavalry is slightly better than the Roman versions (remember the Romans have Extraordinarii cavalry), but does what it does better. The fact that the Carthaginians have excellent medium, heavy, and light cavalry adds to this fact. Their true elites, the Pikemen, Sacred Band, and Afrikan Infantry are far superior to anything the Romans can field , and slightly superior to the Samnites.
This means that the Carthaginians can easily defeat the Romans in the Camillan Military Era, giving them a big advantage in the early years of the game.

I disagree. Experience has shown me that, playing as Qarthadastim, an early war with the Romani is devastating. Most of the battles will take place in Sicilia/Southern Italia, which means you'll constantly have to ship your "better" infantry back to Africa for retraining, or ship reinforcements in, either way, you'll be forced to maintain at least one fleet. The SPQR has no shipping to worry about, since most of the battles are on their home turf.

In one rather interesting Qarthadastim campaign, I eventually besieged Roma after about 20 years of hard struggles. I had to constantly send beleagured units back to Sicila and then on to Africa. I found myself relying more and more on regionals such as Lucanian Light Infantry and the occasional unit of Mercenary Samnites. What started out as a glorious army consisting of perhaps 20%-30% regional/mercenaries, was more like 80%-90% regional/Mercenaries by the time I fought my way to Roma. Needless to say, my Glorious Italian Army (which by this point consisted mostly of Lucanians and Samnites) was soundly defeated, and I was forced to abandon all of Southern Italia, as the Romani still had a fresh legion on its way south.



In the Polybian Era:

Things really don't change much. The Romans lose Samnite Militants, giving the carthaginians complete elite superiority. The Carthaginian Heavy Spear/Hoplite/Assault units are still better than the Roman ones, as is their Cavalry.
The Romans even things out, but they are still inferior to the Carthaginians in this Era.

Surprisingly enough, this may be where Qarthadastim shines....by now they will have likely have either gained firm control of Southern Italia, most of North-western Africa, the islands and the mediterranean coast of Iberia, or they'll be on there way out.

If it's the first one, your in a much better position to be able to afford shipping the elite units (those later Iberians are quite nasty) to Italy and actually stand a chance against the Roman Legions.

If you haven't beaten Roma by this era, good luck. It's doable, but your losses will be catastrophic.

[Pius Curus]

I play as SPQR on H/H with Challenge 1.1. mod and I can say, that I have realy big problems with QH Elite Phalanx. When my oponent has 2 or 3 units of these bastards in the army, I am really mad of them. I think that these Elite Phalangities are to strong in my game. My question is, is this unit historically real?

[Bava]

I play as SPQR on H/H [...]

EB is meant to be played on VH/M and units stats are made for this battle diff setting, so this might be your problem. Sacred Band inf with +4 att/+4 morale bonuses are indeed are scary sight.

[raenor]

I disagree. Experience has shown me that, playing as Qarthadastim, an early war with the Romani is devastating. Most of the battles will take place in Sicilia/Southern Italia, which means you'll constantly have to ship your "better" infantry back to Africa for retraining, or ship reinforcements in, either way, you'll be forced to maintain at least one fleet. The SPQR has no shipping to worry about, since most of the battles are on their home turf.

In one rather interesting Qarthadastim campaign, I eventually besieged Roma after about 20 years of hard struggles. I had to constantly send beleagured units back to Sicila and then on to Africa. I found myself relying more and more on regionals such as Lucanian Light Infantry and the occasional unit of Mercenary Samnites. What started out as a glorious army consisting of perhaps 20%-30% regional/mercenaries, was more like 80%-90% regional/Mercenaries by the time I fought my way to Roma. Needless to say, my Glorious Italian Army (which by this point consisted mostly of Lucanians and Samnites) was soundly defeated, and I was forced to abandon all of Southern Italia, as the Romani still had a fresh legion on its way south.




Surprisingly enough, this may be where Qarthadastim shines....by now they will have likely have either gained firm control of Southern Italia, most of North-western Africa, the islands and the mediterranean coast of Iberia, or they'll be on there way out.

If it's the first one, your in a much better position to be able to afford shipping the elite units (those later Iberians are quite nasty) to Italy and actually stand a chance against the Roman Legions.

If you haven't beaten Roma by this era, good luck. It's doable, but your losses will be catastrophic.

Once you can get the Iberian assault inf in Lilibeo its not too bad. Its pretty easy to get a money making Empire playing as Qarthasdastim, if you can keep Rome off your back till you have all the good african provinces, Silicy and maybe a couple of the Iberian rebel provinces then you are set to take on Rome with a huge income.

That means you can build a fair few of those Iberian assault inf from Lilibeo. The heavy spearmen can be recruited there too iirc which should be enough to go toe to toe with camillan/polybian units. This is with 1.5 tho, might be different with BI and naval invasions.

[pseudocaesar]

Well, the Punic wars were won with Republican armies :P

[jhhowell]

In the Marian Era:
By now the Romans have the advantage. At this time you should have a huge recruitment pool, the resources to use it, superior elites, equal heavies, and excellent medium/heavy cavalry through Auxiliary units. You should also have some very nice Auxiliary units within your provinces.

Which post-Marian cavalry would you characterize as excellent?

Looking at the unit cards, Roman cavalry is purely a support medium cavalry force after Marius. No more Equites Extraordinarii to do serious heavy cavalry charges. I remember looking at the issue quite a while ago and concluding that if I reach the reforms I'm likely to rely on Hippeis for cavalry in most armies...

[Bootsiuv]

Doesn't Romani get good regional cavalry from Gaul and Germania?

[LusitanianWolf]

Doesn't Romani get good regional cavalry from Gaul and Germania?
Good? Skirmisher cavalry, bahhhhh. :inquisitive:
I like the Ilyrion Hippeis (sp?) more.

[jhhowell]

Doesn't Romani get good regional cavalry from Gaul and Germania?

According to the unit cards, post-Marian Roman cav is as follows:

Germans: 6 (0.15) +24 melee, 8 (range 32) javelins (2 shots), defense 16, morale 13, impetuous
Spanish: 9 (0.1) +12 AP, 5 (r 58, 6 shots), 18 def., 10 morale, normal
Thracian: 10 (0.15) +12, 5 (r 45, 6), 20 def., 11 morale
Gallic: 4 (0.33) +27 AP, 4 (r 55, 6), 19 def., 11 morale, impetuous.

Thracian have the best stamina, Spanish the least but can do the circle (meh).

For comparison,

Hippeis: 6 (0.15) +24, 18 defense, 10 morale.
Equites Extraordinarii: 4 (0.33) +31 AP, 23 def., 13 morale

So unless I've missed some post-Marian cav not on the unit cards, looks like Roman cavalry is quite unimpressive after the reforms. They're all good enough to be worth building in their home regions, of course, but all set up to be multi-role medium jav-cav rather than hard hitting well protected lancers. I don't see myself bothering to ship these guys all over the known world like I do with the Extraordinarii, but maybe that's just me.

On the specific topic of this thread, the Equites Hispanorum are basically Iberi Equites Caetrati. If Carthage somehow survives until Rome gets Marian troops, it's a certainty that they'll have Iberi Lanceari in their Spanish provinces. :smash: While overall the Roman lineup is superior to Carthage by this point, I'd characterize the cavalry matchup to be overwhelmingly in Carthage's favor, much more so than in the previous eras.

[russia almighty]

Thats why you leave some Gallic territories with regional MIC's . Gallic Heavies kick serious ass .

[Bootsiuv]

It would appear that Roma's cavalry get worse as Qarthadastim's cavalry gets better. If it weren't for those damn imperial legionnaries, I would give Qarthadastim the upper hand in the late game....alas, that just isn't the case.