3000 trapped...

[Devastatin Dave]

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20071003/D8S21HR81.html

My God....:no:
Very vague details... but 3000 miners?!?!?!? Unbelievable....

[Boyar Son]

BIG slip UP++++++

betcha lots of head ppl are gonna get fired to please the crowd

[master of the puppets]

nah, no one was hurt so i doubt there will be a large uproar beyond a call for safer conditions.

[Tribesman]

betcha lots of head ppl are gonna get fired to please the crowd
I betcha no one of any significance gets fired .

[HoreTore]

BIG slip UP++++++

betcha lots of head ppl are gonna get fired to please the crowd

Please the crowd? They should get fired for incompetence.

But I agree with Tribesman, the odds are that noone will get fired and they'll probably blame it on an outside company...

[Husar]

I got the impression that it was an accident and that the water was to blame. And apparently they have the ability to get the men out there, only slowly but still out there. I'm not a mine eggspert though, maybe someone screwed up, just saying that isn't necessarily the case.

[Fragony]

It's a dangerous job, I hope everyone is fine :no:

sidenote, I heard that in China these accidents usually aren't accidents but insurance schemes by the traids, pretty cold :no:

[Watchman]

That's unfettered capitalism in an authoritatian cleoptocracy for ya.

[HoreTore]

I got the impression that it was an accident and that the water was to blame. And apparently they have the ability to get the men out there, only slowly but still out there. I'm not a mine eggspert though, maybe someone screwed up, just saying that isn't necessarily the case.

Your neighbor has a tree in his yard. If it falls down, it'll hit your house. It's old and decayed, so it won't take much to make it fall down. Then one day you get a lot of wind, and the tree falls down and smashes your house. Could your neighbor be blamed?

You have two failures in this mine:

1. Bad maintaince
2. Horrible escape plans if things go wrong. If they're trapped for over a day, it's a failure.

[Productivity]

2. Horrible escape plans if things go wrong. If they're trapped for over a day, it's a failure.

I disagree completely here. It's a failure if people don't get out alive. You're setting arbitrary deadlines that have no real significance except to make it sound good - and if people rush to meet those deadlines they will become literal deadlines for both the trapped and the rescuers.

In any rescue event such as this steady planned efforts are needed, not foolhardy charge in we'll rescue them in a day ideas. That sort of thing kills rescuers etc.

[Fragony]

That's unfettered capitalism in an authoritatian cleoptocracy for ya.

Well I just call it criminal. Not everyone is fit for capitalism, it requires a whole lot of responsibility towards the community and personal integrity. Without that it can't work.

[Watchman]

As far as business by itself goes, morals and ethics are really just a hindrance. Which is why things like social and cultural norms and, ultimately as relying on those alone tends not be a good idea, enforced laws are needed.

That's specifically why I used the term "unfettered"; a good part of human activity turns predatory and malignant when allowed to run its course without internal or external restraints.

[Fragony]

Our cultural norms evolved in a highly competitive society and we are doing fine. The norm create the laws not the other way around, a written insurance for the society we created.

[Watchman]

I'd say one central running theme of most legislation for the past few hundred years has specifically been the protection of the individual from excesses by other (stronger) individuals or groups thereof, which is the natural side effect of that "competition".

Take away those protections and you'll see just how far the values alone carry without the big stick to back them up. A Hobbesian jungle is what you get, as readily enough witnessed in many a sorry slum and plantation and sweatshop and brothel around the world.

[Fragony]

People will try to break the system regardless, but I think 99% of the people are decent (or calculative take your pick) when it comes to bigger issues. I think the fear for abandoment is bigger then the need for succes, we are social creatures after all. When the lower classes organised they weren't a threat, workers enough for the big bosses, but they got big enough to get their moral appeal across. Take away the protection by law and we will probably see a shortlived drawback to the situations in the early 1900's, how long do you think that will last? They can't get away with it because of what we already established. Here in the netherlands employers and employees are called 'social partners', we are all socialists at heart that's why we don't need socialism.

[Watchman]

In the (self-proclaimed) Communist states the formal excuse to ban labour unions was AFAIK that they were unnecessary since, you know, the regime was supposedly "by the workers for the workers"...

Anyway, you're taking things a wee bit for granted methinks. The capitalist system is just as capable of short-sighted and self-desctructive excesses as any other, and insofar as the nasty side effects do not actually affect its fundamentals the matter will only change through deliberate action. The steps taken to block the malign tendencies will then have to be duly updated to keep pace with developements like any other legislation and institution.

This is however somewhat beside the point, which is that as such both the Capital and the Authorities tend to happily let things go to Hell for the workers so long as they can still maintain their position regardless. The Capital can always come back in the form of another enterprise replacing one that went bankrupt or whatever, and if the Authorities rely on force instead of actual legitimacy in the first place (as is more or less the case in China for example) or otherwise can afford to largely ignore the woes of the Labour they tend not give a hoot, especially if they're reimbursed for looking the other way.

[rory_20_uk]

So, a mine is dug - one of the deepest in the world. How can this be as safe as a shallow one?

Accidents do happen - a burst water pipe somewhere in the 1 1/2 miles above. How was that going to be picked up?

Oh, no one is dead. They are getting food and water.

Compare to say mines in China, Russia or even America. On balance, they're doing far better.

~:smoking:

[Watchman]

Gotta agree with that; if the folks can be gotten out alive, the contingency plans work well enough (although, obviously, this can only be determined ex post facto).

[Fragony]

This is however somewhat beside the point, which is that as such both the Capital and the Authorities tend to happily let things go to Hell for the workers so long as they can still maintain their position regardless. The Capital can always come back in the form of another enterprise replacing one that went bankrupt or whatever, and if the Authorities rely on force instead of actual legitimacy in the first place (as is more or less the case in China for example) or otherwise can afford to largely ignore the woes of the Labour they tend not give a hoot, especially if they're reimbursed for looking the other way.

Well I was talking about the west, but why do company's react so strongly to humanitarian based accusations? Position is no more then a rank within a certain hierarchy. What dictates the hierarchy differs from culture to culture, in China the morality is obviously not evolved enough for a capitalistic system.

[Watchman]

That sounds suspiciously like implying there's a more-or-less linear "chain of developement" for "public morals", with our Western form as the last and most esteemed link you know...
Just pointing out.

Companies tend to worry about their image these days because it's worth money, due to the developement of the popular value-sets among the consumers and quite a bit of hard work by assorted activists and idealists and, ultimately, legislators to get those values established and "internalized" in the first place.
They still, however, tend to try to ignore them when they think they can get away with it, if only by failing to mention questionable business practices to the public and trying to cover up evidence of any wrongdoing. Risk-profit analysis basically. It doesn't hurt that altogether too many consumers are still willing to just buy cheap goods and services without sparing a thought as to at what exact point in the transactional chain the cost-cutting that puts the price so low occurs...

Or as one sales clerk here drily observed of her store's Hennes & Mauritz threads in an interview, "the price tag rather suggests these weren't much touched by adult hands during manufacture."

[Fragony]

That sounds suspiciously like implying there's a more-or-less linear "chain of developement" for "public morals", with our Western form as the last and most esteemed link you know...
Just pointing out.

And you are entirely correct in thinking so. Company's care about money yes, but they have a clear moral framework in which they can operate. Of course they will try to bend the rules, but they can't bend the mindset that got the rules in effect in the first place. It is a linear chain of development. From the process of 'shaming' and the materialistic consequences in the short-, and the transformation to public morals in the long run.

[Watchman]

Then why does it tend to be Western multinats that so happily exploit unprotected workforces out in the sticks and away from the prying eyes of activists and consumers ? The values of societies here may indeed be a far cry from what they once were, but the businesses do not appear to have been much affected beyond the minimum necessary to keep operating in the circumstances.

And let's not even go into the use of "black" workforce "off the books", which is AFAIK something primarily small- and mid-sized local enterpreneurs engage in...

[Tribesman]

Accidents do happen - a burst water pipe somewhere in the 1 1/2 miles above. How was that going to be picked up?

By routine maintainance and safety inspections , when a mine is operating with only one personell access shaft and is on a 24 hour day 7 day week schedule it doesn't leave much downtime for inspections and maintainance does it.

edit to add...Well it appears I was wrong , they did shut down the access shaft for the routine inspection and maintainance only last week .... they worked so fast that instead of a full day shut down they manageed it all in just 30 minutes .


Companies tend to worry about their image these days because it's worth money, due to the developement of the popular value-sets among the consumers and quite a bit of hard work by assorted activists and idealists and, ultimately, legislators to get those values established and "internalized" in the first place.
They still, however, tend to try to ignore them when they think they can get away with it, if only by failing to mention questionable business practices to the public and trying to cover up evidence of any wrongdoing. Risk-profit analysis basically.
Wasn't that British company Raitrack found to be operating with a policy of how many it could afford to kill or injure each year without the compensation and fines making too much impact on its bottom line .

[Fragony]

Then why does it tend to be Western multinats that so happily exploit unprotected workforces out in the sticks and away from the prying eyes of activists and consumers ? The values of societies here may indeed be a far cry from what they once were, but the businesses do not appear to have been much affected beyond the minimum necessary to keep operating in the circumstances.


No fear from being abandoned there, their place in the hierarchy in their heimat stays intact; indeed, it isn't our society. But the world is getting bigger, a few reports from internationally operating groups can do wonders, because then they will have to answer for it in their own turf. Things are getting better all the time because of this, interesting times no?

[Watchman]

Getting better ? Since when, these days ?

[Fragony]

Getting better ? Since when, these days ?

Yup, compare us from the colonial times untill the days of King leopold which spawned the first real human rights movement, no progress made since then? Things aren't perfect, that's all. Probably never will be, but getting better one step at the time. What is your alternative, a global government that enforces law rather then give us and others the time to become steadily better? Napoleon said that you should never interrupt and enemy that makes a mistake, that works both ways.

[Watchman]

I was talking about the past twenty yearts or so you know. Since when did "these days" refer to a century ago ?

[Fragony]

Hey you asked for linear and that you shall have and it has to start somewhere, and you were kinda eager when you mentioned banning unions. I got a book (somewhere)and I am not afraid to use it.

[Watchman]

What are you talking about ?

[Fragony]

That sounds suspiciously like implying there's a more-or-less linear "chain of developement" for "public morals", with our Western form as the last and most esteemed link you know...


that perhaps?

[Watchman]

I fail to see a relevant connection.

[Fragony]

I fail to see a relevant connection.

Even R2D2 has bad days, tried to make my point and I think I did. Read back.

[Watchman]

The point is I was not referring to the bad old days of buck-naked colonial nastiness over a century ago, but the developements since around the mid-Eighties or so.

Wee bit of a difference there.

[Fragony]

The point is I was not referring to the bad old days of buck-naked colonial nastiness over a century ago, but the developements since around the mid-Eighties or so.

Wee bit of a difference there.

Yup and I take it a little further back to put it into perspective. What exactly was so horrible in the mid-eighties, that make it so much much worse, then let's say, the seventies.

[Watchman]

The keyword being "since". Please pay attention.
Ever heard of neoliberalism ?

[HoreTore]

So, a mine is dug - one of the deepest in the world. How can this be as safe as a shallow one?

Accidents do happen - a burst water pipe somewhere in the 1 1/2 miles above. How was that going to be picked up?

Oh, no one is dead. They are getting food and water.

Compare to say mines in China, Russia or even America. On balance, they're doing far better.

~:smoking:

Compared to a dog turd, I look like a supermodel!!

[Fragony]

The keyword being "since". Please pay attention.
Ever heard of neoliberalism ?

Yes, it sees the world of a constant state of anarchy, where each state will do everything for it's own safety, leading to the security/prisoner dillema, that one?

[Watchman]

I'm talking about the economic policy primarily. What you described sounds like a brand of political philosophy whose name I cannot quite recall.

[Fragony]

I'm talking about the economic policy primarily. What you described sounds like a brand of political philosophy whose name I cannot quite recall.

Neorealism, nothing economic about it, that would be neo-liberalism. Neo-realism only deals with the survival of a state and unlike classical realism supports alliances.

[Fragony]

Oh crap Imisread your post, right, neo-liberalism, yeah I know what it is

[Boyar Son]

I betcha no one of any significance gets fired .

politics demands someone take the blame.

[HoreTore]

politics demands someone take the blame.

But shady business practices prevents it...

[Boyar Son]

But shady business practices prevents it...

Who knows, we cant tell for sure someone wont be fired, they'll have to do that to show that they will take responsiblity and regain credibilty.

[Watchman]

Meh, managers are basically hired help these days aren't they ?

[Boyar Son]

Meh, managers are basically hired help these days aren't they ?

I thought ya had to get promoted to it

[Tribesman]

politics demands someone take the blame.
Check the 7th word of what you quoted:yes:

The country is heavily reliant on the company and its exports , the company is in serious financial trouble , it is in neither of their interests to make a big issue of it .
A few empty promises to the union and workers and a little letter to the company from the government suggesting that they really should follow correct safety proceedures if they can be bothered is about all that is going to happen .
Now Harmony could have shutdown for proper maintainance .... but that would cost money . They could have even kept the the second personell shaft open as an escape route and to facilitate routinely shutting down one shaft for maintainance without shutting the mine.... but that would cost money .
Risking workers lives is cheaper .

[HoreTore]

Who knows, we cant tell for sure someone wont be fired, they'll have to do that to show that they will take responsiblity and regain credibilty.

That will be done by finding someone very unimportant to the company, turn him into a scapegoat and fire him. Since other people don't really care about anything else than profits and keeping their job, nobody will take a closer look at it, thus forgetting the issue.

Then the cycle will continue...

[Boyar Son]

Check the 7th word of what you quoted:yes:

The country is heavily reliant on the company and its exports , the company is in serious financial trouble , it is in neither of their interests to make a big issue of it .
A few empty promises to the union and workers and a little letter to the company from the government suggesting that they really should follow correct safety proceedures if they can be bothered is about all that is going to happen .
Now Harmony could have shutdown for proper maintainance .... but that would cost money . They could have even kept the the second personell shaft open as an escape route and to facilitate routinely shutting down one shaft for maintainance without shutting the mine.... but that would cost money .
Risking workers lives is cheaper .

help? that explains much.

HIRED is what I was looking at....

[Husar]

Now Harmony could have shutdown for proper maintainance .... but that would cost money . They could have even kept the the second personell shaft open as an escape route and to facilitate routinely shutting down one shaft for maintainance without shutting the mine.... but that would cost money .
Risking workers lives is cheaper .
Well, that accident now doesn't seem to be all that cheap and if they didn't maintain the shaft correctly, the insurance shouldn't pay anything.

[Watchman]

The term is "short-sighted".

[Tribesman]

Well, that accident now doesn't seem to be all that cheap and if they didn't maintain the shaft correctly, the insurance shouldn't pay anything.
Its a pittance compared to their recent business failures and losses during the strike .

[AntiochusIII]

help? that explains much.

HIRED is what I was looking at....No, "significance."

They might fire some poor devil or two to save face but the bigwigs aren't going to be touched. Not without actual deaths in sufficient numbers.

Here's hoping the miners get out safe and sound.