View Full Version : KotR Out of character thread XIV
GeneralHankerchief
10-11-2007, 21:29
Wow.
Big round of applause guys. It's been amazing. :applause:
Northnovas
10-11-2007, 21:43
Wow.
Big round of applause guys. It's been amazing. :applause:
I will second that!:yes:
Not knowing about WOTS which appears to be the benchmark for PBEM this is amazing the strength of this game. It's hard to believe the real time length of the game and we still have steam to go.:tredmil:
I think a lot has to go to the participants, gamemaster(s) and the contributers of the outgame post like the library, history that record the the play of the game.:2thumbsup:
Warluster
10-11-2007, 21:53
Wow, its been going for a while. How long has this game been going, and how long did WOTS go for?
Ignoramus
10-11-2007, 23:32
Why are we moving on before the Battle for Normandy is finished. Because it's unfair, becaue Hans is getting closer, and Imperial armies are building up in Brugges, Caen, and Rheims.
The Battle of Normandy began at the end of 1316, which means neither side could have moved after the battle anyway. 1318 will not end until the battle is over with, which means the victor will still be able to utilize their full plans for the year. It doesn't really matter what order the rest of the events transpire in. econ21 is simply managing them in the most efficient way he can to keep things moving. At this point, the Battle of Normandy is the slow down, so he's preparing the rest of the game so that it can instantly move on once it is over.
Nice story, GH. And everyone else too. The entire story thread has been very impressive lately. I think some of those Mead Hall people could learn a thing or two in here...
Why are we moving on before the Battle for Normandy is finished. Because it's unfair, becaue Hans is getting closer, and Imperial armies are building up in Brugges, Caen, and Rheims.
Caen is yours, Ignoramus, but like the rest of the Reich it recruited nothing last turn (thanks to Theodora :flowers:)[1]. Even at the best of times, Bruges and Rheims just recruit militia and under my stewardship only enough to keep up with desertion really.
I am taking the Battle of Normandy to occur in 1316 (I know Factionheir suggested the move at the end of 1314 but the battle took time to take off). I know you are temporarily in a stasis field, but whoever wins will will get a move in 1318. Unless I hear otherwise, I am assuming if you will tag Bruges then head for Rheims; Warluster will tag Caen.
[1]I lie - Fritz recruited a bucket load of troops thanks to the expedient of sacking his own city. :dizzy2:
I've made most of the moves for 1318. Only the Swabian battle characters remain.
There are two offensive battles:
Dietrich von Dassel (GeneralHankerchief):
OOC: You can strike at the rear of the Byzantines besieging Bologna. You have hire some mercenaries, but many ran away when they saw the size of the enemy army. Even your fanatics have deserted you. Their fanaticism apparently left something to be desired. However, half the enemy army is peasant rabble and, if you think it necessary, you could call on the services of the Venice garrison to support you.
King Jan (Privateerkev)
IC: Two regiments of Byzantine cavalry were on patrol when I took Antioch at night. I would be grateful if you could hunt them down with as many or as few as your men as you judge necessary. Matthias's army should be able to reinforce, but obviously try to minimise his losses. If my army gets involved, please look after me new Arnolds.
http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/kotr1318-2.zip
News embargo remains in place for the rest of this turn.
I think the moves I have made for everyone are uncontroversial EXCEPT Fredericus Erlach (Stuperman). I put him on a merc boat and sent him alone to Ajaccio. There he hired two merc crossbows and is training three regiments of dismounted knights. He will likely be besieged there on and off the cataclysm, so if he does not want to be there - tell me and I'll teleport him back to Italy. However, from Stuperman's in character comments, it sounded like the sort of thing Fredericus would want to do. I put Lothar in charge of BHAG and set him towards Florence, which is under threat. I figured with Lothar and Dietrich in north Italy, Fredericus was not really required.
I will not be able to end turn until the Battle of Normandy is over. I aim to resolve phase 1 on Friday night; phase 2 on Saturday night. But that will require Ignoramus and Warluster providing orders for phase 1 on time and for phase 2 during the interval between Friday and Saturday nights. If the latter is a problem because of limited weekend internet access, let me know and I will adjust the deadline.
GeneralHankerchief
10-12-2007, 00:46
My fanatics have deserted me???
:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:
I loved those little guys. They killed the Pope! :cry:
I'll fight in a couple of hours.
My fanatics have deserted me??? I loved those little guys. They killed the Pope! :cry:
Sorry, the dice gods are cruel. I've been disbanding XP8 knights and all sorts.
Stuperman
10-12-2007, 01:35
After reviewing the save (I think I should know what I am up against), I'll stay on Ajaccio.
GeneralHankerchief
10-12-2007, 03:03
Taking the save now.
RoadKill
10-12-2007, 03:10
Okay econ you have to continue to take control of Lorenz Zirn still, I still cant solve the problem with my MTW 2. Could someone help me out. In "My computer" it knows that the MedTW2_1 (D:) disc is in the DVD-Drive, and even the MTW launcher pop ups, like what the hell, but when I click play the DVD-Drive makes a weird Techno noise and says that I either don't have the disc in or that I have inserted the wrong disc this is starting to fustrate me.
GeneralHankerchief
10-12-2007, 03:57
Battle fought. As OK has probably discovered, a plus side to all of these strange full-stack Byzantine armies is that they're... well... not that good. Chain rout made me feel like I was back in RTW.
1:1 odds, prisoners executed.
https://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n231/GeneralHankerchief/KotR/kotr_192.jpg
http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/kotr1318-3.zip
PK, it's all yours.
Privateerkev
10-12-2007, 08:14
PK, it's all yours.
Got the hand off, save is mine. :beam:
AussieGiant
10-12-2007, 08:42
One of the many reasons I find this so awesome. Now if Jan gets a boy soon, that will be icing on the cake. It would be even better if he names him Arnold. ^_^
"fat dumpy stuck up Jan" gets married while "chick magnet Arnold" gets shunned at the alter. I love this game. :beam:
LOL that's pretty funny. :beam:
FactionHeir
10-12-2007, 09:06
Sorry, the dice gods are cruel. I've been disbanding XP8 knights and all sorts.
:gah: are you telling me you disbanded my knights can you shipped from Outremer?
Privateerkev
10-12-2007, 09:19
AG: Don't worry, I'm sure Arnold will find true love...ur...true rodgering?...ur...true...something? :dizzy2:
Here is the save. Will pm report to Econ. Got an extra dread point but it is buried in Jan's many many layers of chivalry so you won't even notice. ^_^
Have 2 dread points but 13 chivalry. So Jan is simultaneously the "patron saint of knights" while being "cruel and cunning". I love how traits jive together. :beam:
http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/kotr1318-4.zip
are you telling me you disbanded my knights can you shipped from Outremer?
No, they teamed up with Bavarian Household Army Otto to make it safely out of Greece (with no navy to protect them, they have had to ride from Thessalonica). But I have separated them so that TinCow can identify them. You will have to liase with him to make sure they continue on to Swabia.
You PMd me to ask about your forces. Hans has a newly recruited Teutonic Knight regiment, but he has also just tagged Staufen which has a town militia, DFK and armoured swordsman. Ruppel has a DFK and three armoured swordsmen. The Prinz's army has been really hard hit by desertion - hence the absence of crossbows and veteran cavalry. Without taking the troops recruited at Innsbruck, you would have no army to speak of.
As OK has probably discovered, a plus side to all of these strange full-stack Byzantine armies is that they're... well... not that good. Chain rout made me feel like I was back in RTW.
When I gifted settlements to the Byzantines, they created weird monotone garrison armies of the kind of mercs available. I added a balanced half stack to each to try to mask this incongruity. You just beat the Sicilian garrison, which was 10 peasant archers. The Outremer ones are rather scarey - 10 heavy cavalry - so we've been trying to avoid open field battles. I've also created more balanced armies that should provide more of a challenge.
One thing I can't do is create good generals to lead them, so that might explain the chain routs - along with your dread.
Battle report for Antioch up.
Warluster
10-12-2007, 11:04
econ, my orders for BfN are sent.
Is this is what was required?
econ, my orders for BfN are sent.
Is this is what was required?
That should be sufficient, thanks.
Ideally, I would like you to upload a jpg of where you would like your units to be at the end of phase 1. i.e. download the zip:
http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/normandy.zip
Take the unit markers in the Word document and paste them onto the jpg of the map, placing them where you envisage them being after the execution of your orders.
It's not essential, but it might help you clarify your orders.
If Ignoramus does not make this afternoon's deadline for orders, I will execute yours and have his react according to his earlier orders/commonsense. The show must go on!
OverKnight
10-12-2007, 11:28
My own battle report is up as well for 1316
Battle fought. As OK has probably discovered, a plus side to all of these strange full-stack Byzantine armies is that they're... well... not that good. Chain rout made me feel like I was back in RTW.
True, but you still lost 1/3 of your army. What would happen if you had one of these battles every year with little to no reinforcements? What would happen if you were attacked by two full stacks at once?
MUAHAHAHAHAHA!
http://library.thinkquest.org/3890/EMPEROR3.JPG
AussieGiant
10-12-2007, 14:22
True, but you still lost 1/3 of your army. What would happen if you had one of these battles every year with little to no reinforcements? What would happen if you were attacked by two full stacks at once?
MUAHAHAHAHAHA!
http://library.thinkquest.org/3890/EMPEROR3.JPG
Good God!!
What haev we gotten ourselves into!!?? :beam:
haha! oh dear.... where was that early submersible again? Fritz would like to hide for the next 22 years, please.
FactionHeir
10-12-2007, 15:37
Well, you would be attacked constantly and smartly if TC were to use the files I sent him :wink:
Thanks for the update econ. Looks like I'll have to hope that Warluster wins or at least gets most of Hümmel's troops downed. Of course I could go and raise a few extra men from the pop, but we'll see.
One small note though, you meant feudal footknights rather than armoured swordmen right? The latter is an English unit (of course Lyneve might be nice)
As for the balanced armies, I guess Byz aren't the ideal faction to have a balanced army as they don't really have any spearmen worth speaking of to counter heavy cav. They do have nasty HAs though.
GeneralHankerchief
10-12-2007, 16:21
Oh man, thank you so much for posting that Emperor picture. I've been looking for variations of him actually electrocuting someone.
you smell worse than anyone I've ever met, and you'd be surprised by the people you meet in the holy land
lol! that was great, I'm glad we could have at least a couple of smelly soldier quotes
lol I had to have some kind of comeback, but even I'm getting annoyed by this army business now, I need some men to help with the story I've been planning, ah well never mind arguing is fun too.
GeneralHankerchief
10-12-2007, 20:30
Battle report for Bologna is up.
RoadKill
10-12-2007, 21:05
Econ, my MTW 2 is still not working. so you still have control over Lorenz Zirn, I dont want to pm it, so could you just get Lorenz to protect the borders to Budapest till the reinforcements arrive, and if they do join armies.
Privateerkev
10-12-2007, 21:49
lol I had to have some kind of comeback, but even I'm getting annoyed by this army business now, I need some men to help with the story I've been planning, ah well never mind arguing is fun too.
lol! that was great, I'm glad we could have at least a couple of smelly soldier quotes
I assure you, that back in Outremer, Jan is grinning his arse off. :yes:
Of course, that could be because he has been "rodgering" like a coked-out bunny rabbit. :beam:
While the Battle for Normandy is still locked in its own little time bubble, I have pressed end turn for 1218. (I can use the console to give the Normandy armies their 1216 moves).
There is at least one, probably two defensive battles.
The one that must be fought first is:
Dietrich von Dassel (GeneralHankerchief):
Bologna has revolted, expelling the garrison. A full strength Byzantine army is bearing down on the hapless garrison - now out in the open, unprotected by the city walls. You have been called to assist and honour requires that you do. However, the odds are 1:2 against you and in truth, it is surely a fight you cannot win. The Byzantine army is a balanced one and the number of professional warriors in your force is pitiful. You would be best advised to try to get out alive with what men you can.
OOC: You can't retreat pre-battle; I am not sure about within the battle if you fight it manually. An auto-resolve should see you escape and with no slur on your name - it is the garrison that is attacked, not you.
After GH has dealt with his battle, it is likely that Northnovas will be attacked. GH please save when you get to the pre-battle screen for NN's battle.
Karl Zirn (Northnovas):
You are in flight from Bucharest, but small force of Hungarian infantry seeks to intercept you. Your force is mainly cavalry - their's mainly spears. You will have to fight smart, but you should be able to triumph.
NN after your battle, there is a chance that the Hungarians will attack the gold chevroned Feudal knights. If they do, save on the pre-battle screen and upload it for me. It they do not, let the end of turn sequence run its course. Please open all the pop-ups and make a note of any significant contents - screenshots may be good. If offered any marriages or new avatars, accept - apart from any more adoptions for Hans. Thanks.
The save for GH:
http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/kotr1318-5.zip
Northnovas
10-13-2007, 03:44
I will wait for GH to do his turn. This looks like a morning battle EST. I will make sure I am fueled with the caffine before I start.:coffeenews:
GeneralHankerchief
10-13-2007, 04:03
A'right, let me have a look as soon as I can tear myself away from EB 1.0.
Stuperman
10-13-2007, 04:17
I didn't know that EB 1 was out....so much for productivity.
GeneralHankerchief
10-13-2007, 04:33
Autoresolved.
https://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n231/GeneralHankerchief/KotR/kotr_194.jpg
http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/kotr1318-6.zip
It's all yours, Northnovas.
Some news for econ:
Not sure if this is part of the news blackout or not, but it's good for the Chancellor's Reports.
You shouldn't be reading this if you're not a Throne Room mod.
From what I saw the Byzantines got into some action (read: bloodied) against the Turks north of Antioch, the Danes are periously close to Hamburg, and Thorn is besieged for the 79,483rd time.
-edit- I just DL'd it as a spur-of-the-moment thing; I hadn't touched any of the prior versions. But I knew about all the hype and I saw that 1.0 was released, so I thought I'd give it a shot.
Not disappointed one bit. :yes:
FactionHeir
10-13-2007, 10:32
You should fight the battle, not autoresolve it. Autoresolve is cheap as it can never get your avatar killed unless you only attack/defend with your avatar :grin:
I encouraged GH to autoresolve. I think it was a battle that he could not win, although you are welcome to give it a spin and see how it goes when fought manually.
FactionHeir
10-13-2007, 10:42
I'm not allowed to load up the save though.
Still, I guess it depends on whether GH had any cavalry and the map.
If any one can help me fill in some of the battle statistics table, it would be appreciated:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1685691&postcount=286
Specifically, Stig, Ignoramus, Tamur, Dutch_guy and Cecil all have fought battles that I have no numbers for.
OverKnight
10-13-2007, 11:20
How close are we to a report on 1318? Due to the blackout I'm more curious than usual. I'm also surprised, and a little disappointed, that the Byzzies didn't want to have another go at Matthias.
How close are we to a report on 1318? Due to the blackout I'm more curious than usual.
I am aiming for tonight sometime. Northnovas has to fight his battle. I want to resolve the stop-start Battle of Normandy. Then there is the vexed question of who commands the Saxon Household Army to sort out. I would like to clear up this stuff to clear the stage for TinCow's takeover to begin with a bang.
I'm also surprised, and a little disappointed, that the Byzzies didn't want to have another go at Matthias.
I think may be one improvement of the strategic AI over previous TWs. I've found the M2TW AI is much less keen to through itself into a bridge assault. That said, if all the Byzantine armies north of you did through themselves over the bridge, you would be doomed (I don't want to spoil the blackout, but there seemed to be a lot of them.)
Northnovas
10-13-2007, 11:44
I have the save and will continue. If ther are no other defensive battle will finish the turn and take the screen shots for the opening turn.
Privateerkev
10-13-2007, 12:08
Then there is the vexed question of who commands the Saxon Household Army to sort out.
I will say that the Franconian thread has been quite lively and made for some great reading. Nice to see some drama in there that Jan had nothing to do with for a change. :2thumbsup:
I think may be one improvement of the strategic AI over previous TWs. I've found the M2TW AI is much less keen to through itself into a bridge assault. That said, if all the Byzantine armies north of you did through themselves over the bridge, you would be doomed (I don't want to spoil the blackout, but there seemed to be a lot of them.)
I have found, that if you have a unit that can deploy stakes, and arty, that you can hold a bridge pretty much indefinitely. Unless the enemy are Timurids due to the ridiculous long range of their "Arnolds". In my SP games, I am always England and I have soaked up and destroyed a full Mongol horde (3 waves consolidated at once) in one turn. Once you pop their arty with counter-battery fire, they just march their horseys in a neat single file row right up to the Mongol shish-kebab that you set up.
Of course, I always play on E/E because I mainly play for the campaign experience. :beam:
Northnovas
10-13-2007, 12:55
Karl's first European battle wasn't much:
https://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa55/northnovas/Karl%20Battles/1318a-deployment.jpg
The results:
https://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa55/northnovas/Karl%20Battles/1318b-victory.jpg
https://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa55/northnovas/Karl%20Battles/1288-4stats.jpg
There is another defensive battle for 1318. Some Hungarians came out of Sofia and attacked Karolinger's Army.
https://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa55/northnovas/Karl%20Battles/1318d-defensivebattle.jpg
Here's the save ready to go:
http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/kotr1318-7.zip
Good Luck WH!
GeneralHankerchief
10-13-2007, 13:52
I had no cavalry and about half the total force was militia.
After ARing I did manually fight myself and got everyone killed. :hide:
I've resolved the battle of Normandy. Neither side pressed the attack, so it was an inconclusive draw.
Both sides will head back to their Citadels (under the cataclysm, as I understand it, captains can't move so if people want reinforcements, they will have to pick them up).
FactionHeir
10-13-2007, 15:09
Since they are entrenched in their positions, moving off would result in some losses, right?
Time to bring on the artillery :grin:
Since they are entrenched in their positions, moving off would result in some losses, right?
Well, I think it would be easy to break under cover of darkness. It was a bit of Mexican stand-off and neither side really seemed to want to press the matter.
But I will roll for attrition when I get the save back from Warmaster_Horus. Everyone else has already endured their roll for 1318 - I assume desertion will stop when TinCow takes over. As GH has found out, we will need the men. :scared:
BTW for Warmaster_Horus's battle, I'm going to apply a 24 hour deadline from the time of Northnovas's post and then autoresolve if necessary.
FactionHeir
10-13-2007, 15:20
Well, you can continue desertion and once the civil war is over, have the men come back using create_unit (or somesuch) which also allows to control the amount of experience and weapon/armor upgrades. Just make a note of the units you disband.
IMO the battle should have continued reading the last post in that thread as Warluster was actively harassing using his xbows still while Hümmel was just sitting around.
If you insist on breaking it off though, I would suggest to have Warluster pursue Hümmel and besiege Caen rather than withdraw all the way to Staufen. Too many rebels in the way and Hans is moving towards Caen in a way anyway (will tag settlements along the way though)
Privateerkev
10-13-2007, 15:23
I think there was an urge to get the game moving again. Most of us are sitting in our foxholes waiting for all hell to break loose soon. The Normandy battle, while cool, was kind of just sitting there.
We've jacked up the tension and suspense to an insanely high level and then we make everyone wait. o_O
I for one am looking forward to getting this ball rolling again. :yes:
Desertion and rioting will stop once I take over, but they will resume if avatars do thing which would logically create them. We're going to need all the help we can get.
If you insist on breaking it off though, I would suggest to have Warluster pursue Hümmel and besiege Caen rather than withdraw all the way to Staufen. Too many rebels in the way and Hans is moving towards Caen in a way anyway (will tag settlements along the way though)
I'm going to move them one turn back - a teleport, representing 1318 move - at the start of 1320 along their lines of communication. From their orders, I think they were too evenly matched for either to want to press things. Hummel actually wanted to press on to Bruges, but von Salza was blocking that. Von Salza pressing on to Caen would not be smart as Hummel has fresh troops being trained there and will outnumbered him. I know it may suit Hans if they mutually self destruct, but I'm giving them a time out to resupply and get more men. If they want to go back at it in 1320, they can.
We've jacked up the tension and suspense to an insanely high level and then we make everyone wait.
Right now, it's the computer making us wait. I am not sure we had a single defensive battle under my stewardship and now it comes to an end, we have three! The AI is toying with us. :laugh4:
gibsonsg91921
10-13-2007, 15:57
not a decisive battle at all. lol
they should fight 'er multiplayer.
GeneralHankerchief
10-13-2007, 16:35
FH, I hope you made some notes reading the Normandy thread. :wink:
StoneCold
10-13-2007, 16:42
HAHA, GH you going to true ur hand at regicide too? OR should that be dukicide? :P
gibsonsg91921
10-13-2007, 16:44
go for it GH lol. hans hates peter
FactionHeir
10-13-2007, 17:11
I'm going to move them one turn back - a teleport, representing 1318 move - at the start of 1320 along their lines of communication. From their orders, I think they were too evenly matched for either to want to press things. Hummel actually wanted to press on to Bruges, but von Salza was blocking that. Von Salza pressing on to Caen would not be smart as Hummel has fresh troops being trained there and will outnumbered him. I know it may suit Hans if they mutually self destruct, but I'm giving them a time out to resupply and get more men. If they want to go back at it in 1320, they can.
How come Hümmel can afford training troops and not suffer desertion at all while Hans' troops desert left and right and doesn't have any funds to recruit troops?
Hans doesn't want them to mutually self-destruct, but wants the rebellion to end within the next year so he can go and reclaim all those rebel towns. Have to wonder why towns actually rebelled even though Hümmel only really holds Metz and Caen while Hans sent out specific orders to the NPC governors.
GH: Not quite sure what you mean, except that Ignoramus would have let you send orders in his stead.
How come Hümmel can afford training troops and not suffer desertion at all while Hans' troops desert left and right and doesn't have any funds to recruit troops?
Hans doesn't want them to mutually self-destruct, but wants the rebellion to end within the next year so he can go and reclaim all those rebel towns. Have to wonder why towns actually rebelled even though Hümmel only really holds Metz and Caen while Hans sent out specific orders to the NPC governors.
He has no chance at all of being able to end the rebellion within one year now that the Battle of Normandy is over.
Don't worry about desertion, though. Like I said, it's over with and you won't suffer any more unless you cause it through your own actions. Hans has relatively little military power at the moment, but he can quickly and easily assemble a great deal if he does the right things. In addition, Staufen is safe from foreign attack for the time being, while Caen is right on the front lines with France. Wolfgang will have to manage to hold off the French just to survive, let alone expand.
Warmaster Horus
10-13-2007, 17:42
I'm solving my v1.3 problems right now, so you can expect me taking the save in the next hour.
Privateerkev
10-13-2007, 18:23
Right now, it's the computer making us wait. I am not sure we had a single defensive battle under my stewardship and now it comes to an end, we have three! The AI is toying with us. :laugh4:
Then the ai must die. :D
but seriously, I guess I just am getting antsy in general. It's like running downstairs on christmas morning and having your parents tell you that you have to run an errand before you open presents. anyone else feeling that way? The buildup has been absolutely awesome. The stories and role playing that it has been generating have been top-notch. But it has made me all on-the-edge-of-my-seat with anticipation at the next step. I'll endeavor to not let my excitement get too naggy. ^_^
I'll go do something else today. That will help take my mind off of it. :2thumbsup:
GeneralHankerchief
10-13-2007, 18:32
Play EB. :laugh4:
How come Hümmel can afford training troops and not suffer desertion at all while Hans' troops desert left and right and doesn't have any funds to recruit troops?
In 1318, Hummel trained troops in Caen and Hans did in Staufen; in fact, every castle in the Reich maxed out recruitment. In 1316, no one trained anything due to the heist (except Fritz went on a spending spree after sacking Stettin). The slow resolution of the battle of Normandy immunised the two parties from desertion, but that benefits loyalists and rebels equally.
Hans doesn't want them to mutually self-destruct, but wants the rebellion to end within the next year so he can go and reclaim all those rebel towns.
I have a feeling that TinCow's time may be more about losing settlements than reclaiming them. But I don't know how evil he is going to be.
Have to wonder why towns actually rebelled even though Hümmel only really holds Metz and Caen while Hans sent out specific orders to the NPC governors.
In character, the towns revolted against both Hummel and Hans.
Out of character, Swabia has suffered the most from Acre being the capital. But I think things may balance out as Swabia has only one external enemy (France) whereas other Houses face multiple opponents: Franconia vs Danes, Poles & Russians; Austria vs Venetians, Hungarians and Byzantines; Bavaria vs Sicilians and Byzantines; Outremer vs Byzantines, Egyptians and Papists.
Warmaster Horus
10-13-2007, 18:38
I've got the save. Expect an update in less than half an hour.
gibsonsg91921
10-13-2007, 18:39
Yeah, it's time for Franconia to kick some a.
Privateerkev
10-13-2007, 18:47
Play EB. :laugh4:
It looks interesting but I have my general hesitancy about mods to contend with. I almost picked up "TW Eras" yesterday though. It's down to about 30 bucks. (remember I still don't own RTW) Got Medal of Honor: Pacific Assault instead because that is down to 10 bucks. :2thumbsup:
But instead of playing video games, I'm going to go to my gf's parents so they can celebrate our b-days. (She is the day after me) So, try not to let the whole Reich burn down until I get back tonight. ~;)
Warmaster Horus
10-13-2007, 19:49
http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/kotr1320.rar
Battle fought and won. No other battles. Expect battle results in a couple of hours.
GeneralHankerchief
10-13-2007, 20:10
Hmm, this cataclysm is starting out pretty well for Dietrich.
I accept the marriage proposal.
gibsonsg91921
10-13-2007, 20:20
peters coup didnt go as planned.
I have a couple of things I want to do to the save before handing over to TinCow.
Once the Chancellor's report for 1318 goes up, we will be in 1320 in the story.
Good, I was hoping you were going to fine-tune the 1320 save. I am already working on the first turn write-up for the Cataclysm period. Please be patient with me throughout my phase of the event. This stuff takes a long time to write for 19 players.
I am going to list options for all players on the first turn, just because I want to demonstrate the range of possibilities that are open to people. I urge you all to read the options for each character, simply because some are more imaginative than others. Use them as a way to come up with your own strategies.
If in the future you know you are going to make up your own choices about what to do, please notify me ahead of time. It will save some time if I can skip writing choices for a few people.
OK, I've adjusted the save to reflect the Battle for Normandy:
http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/kotr1320.zip
It's all yours, TinCow. If you need me to do any more fine tuning, just shout. I am leaving the command of the Saxon army as an issue for 1320 to decide.
I think the news embargo is over - it was the fall of Rome we wanted to keep secret - so unless TinCow says otherwise, players are free to inspect the savegame.
On another matter, we have a new avatar - Dieter von Kassel - who has spawned in besieged Acre. My (OOC!) son, Mini Econ, has asked to take on the role and I have agreed. I am pretty sure he will be youngest player here, so please make allowances.
Northnovas
10-13-2007, 23:07
Just to confirm I will look after the avatar shots for the library.
so please make allowances.
No: &#*@%!
or even:
*!^$%$^@
???
:daisy: all
btw: I believe you made him Heir to Franconia ... not the best place for a young kid
FactionHeir
10-14-2007, 00:09
Heh "Mini Econ" huh? So he's going to be an economist too? :grin2:
Thanks for the infos btw, I'll have a word with TC.
FYI, the first turn will begin tomorrow. You can rest easy for tonight and stop reloading the forums.
gibsonsg91921
10-14-2007, 01:04
how old is mini-econ?
FactionHeir
10-14-2007, 01:25
New KOTRfix is up (v 1.29).
Several fixes to minor oversights in terms of 1.28a's balance, upped a few chances here and downed a few there. Lowered several trait thresholds for very rare traits and upped them for some too common traits.
As usual get it from my sig or direct link:
http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/KOTRfix129.zip
OverKnight
10-14-2007, 01:31
If we have a mini-econ does that make econ21, macro-econ?
Thank you, thank you, I'm here all week.
Seriously though Econ21 good job :2thumbsup: on weakening the Reich in a believable manner and accomodating all sorts of odd requests while telling an enthralling story. It's all so Gibbonesque.
You're a better man then me. My ego wouldn't have allowed me to drag my character's reputation through the mud and thrown a wrench into the delicate machinery we've built up. I can only imagine the sick, twisted and horrific things TC has waiting for us.
FactionHeir
10-14-2007, 01:35
I approve of OK's post.
GeneralHankerchief
10-14-2007, 01:38
Ugh, OK, I'm taking AP economics this year. Please don't remind me.
OverKnight
10-14-2007, 01:41
Cry me a river GH, I had an 8:00am Intro to Economics class in college. The horror, the horror.
GeneralHankerchief
10-14-2007, 01:44
Yeah, but that was back in college. You're supposed to, you know, look back on it and laugh (or at least, wonder how you survived).
I on the other hand am forced to deal with the reminders that KotR is sucking my time from studying for said class.
gibsonsg91921
10-14-2007, 01:50
im taking ap gov/econ senior year, next
GeneralHankerchief
10-14-2007, 03:26
AP Gov isn't too bad. I took it last year and did fine on the exam.
Anyway, I'm trying my hand at making some KotR banners in preparation for the cataclysm; here's my first attempt. Any suggestions/ideas on how to zoom in closer? I wanted an Imperial fighting a Byzantine close-up but this was as close as I could get.
https://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n231/GeneralHankerchief/banner1.jpg
Warluster
10-14-2007, 03:27
Awesome, interesting story as well GH.
And when you've done some banners, will you allow other players to use them?
GeneralHankerchief
10-14-2007, 03:29
Yes, please do.
Cecil XIX
10-14-2007, 03:50
Good story GH, I like that you really have to know about KOTR to get who it's about.
Serves him right, too. :laugh4:
GeneralHankerchief
10-14-2007, 03:52
Three more:
https://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n231/GeneralHankerchief/banner2.jpg
The wordier, cataclysm-ready version:
https://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n231/GeneralHankerchief/banner3.jpg
And the Heinrich-approved one:
https://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n231/GeneralHankerchief/banner4.jpg
-edit- Hmm, words don't come out too well. Maybe it's the color.
Let's try it in blue:
https://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n231/GeneralHankerchief/banner4-1.jpg
And now, with contrast!
https://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n231/GeneralHankerchief/banner5.jpg
https://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n231/GeneralHankerchief/banner5a.jpg
https://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n231/GeneralHankerchief/banner6.jpg
Warluster
10-14-2007, 05:11
Ah, how do I add it to my sig? DO I have to save it then download it using Imageshack?
Northnovas
10-14-2007, 05:14
The red and blue lettering is a little fuzzy or washed out but that green looks sharpe. It has a real contrast to the background.
Privateerkev
10-14-2007, 05:29
I will also join in with the kudos to GH for the story. :2thumbsup:
Somewhere, the world's smallest violin is playing for a certain former Kaiser. ^_^
But one minor point with the story, I think Karl Zirn is the oldest avatar, not Hans.
It's, in order:
Karl Zirn 56
Hans 54
Elberhard 48
Ansehelm 47
Jan 45 (yeah I was surprised by this too. Jan is one of the "elders". :beam:)
Fritz 43
Peter 42
Arnold 41
Lothar 41
The rest are "youngins" since I set an arbitrary cut-off of 40. :D
Also, I might be a half of a year off in avatar age since I just added 5 years to whatever was in the Library. Didn't feel like loading up the save again.
Northnovas
10-14-2007, 05:44
No wonder the old joints have been acting up recently. I'm an old coot!:turtle:
I think maybe I may the oldest player with the oldest avatar.
AussieGiant
10-14-2007, 09:28
Ahh jees,
I'm finally starting to get the excitement back after a while.
Cecil....definitely no hard feelings, but....you are talking about the original and best, Dread Duke of the Holy Roman Empire.
I can't see him giving you too much leeway on this...still, maybe he gets married soon as can be pacified :laugh4:
how old is mini-econ?
He's 12 - just starting secondary school.
We've been playing Warhammer wargames together since he was about five though, so he is something of a veteran.
FactionHeir
10-14-2007, 10:49
Now that's what I call education :laugh4:
GeneralHankerchief
10-14-2007, 14:07
Ah, how do I add it to my sig? DO I have to save it then download it using Imageshack?
No, use the URL tag and where you would normally put what the link would say (not the actual link - I linked it to the History thread) put the IMG tag and then the image URL itself.
Example: http://www.image_url_here.com (http://www.where_you_want_to_link_it_to.org)
First turn post is up. FH and GH have already been communicating with me regularly on their plans, so I skipped the choices for them to save time. At least for this turn, I urge everyone to read the choices for each person, if only to give you ideas for the future. Keep in mind these choices are NOT DEFINITIVE. If you want to elaborate further on one of them or do something completely different, just tell me so in the PM.
Second, note that I have relied on peoples' traits heavily in many areas, especially financial. All unusual financial adjustments are noted in parentheses after the current amount of wealth.
Third, the 1320.sav file has not yet been edited. I am going to move some armies around right now and will then re-upload it. If something in the description I posted does not match the current save game, go with what the description says.
Finally, I changed the rules on movement to greatly simplify them. Please re-read them.
GeneralHankerchief
10-14-2007, 16:29
Wow TinCow, that looks really impressive. :bow:
Finally, here's a banner reminiscent of happier times:
https://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n231/GeneralHankerchief/banner7.jpg
@TinCow, Vilnius is not controlled by Elberhard, but by Franconia
Sorry, I was going by the Chancellor's thread which says it is Imperial. Can you show me where it was given to Franconia?
gibsonsg91921
10-14-2007, 16:39
o it is imperial. dang
I don't think Vilnius was ever allocated to a House; at the last Diet, the intention was to abandon it, which is what happened. However, the AI just walked past it for about 8 turns, even though it was ungarrisoned. Then I put in a minimal garrison, hoping to lure the AI to take it. They are still ignoring it. :shrug:
TinCow: I might have missed it, but what is the deadline for submitting orders? 24 hours from your post? 48 hours?
Ah, I forgot to include that. It will be 48 hours from the time of posting. I will not that at the top of the FAQ.
Also, the 'official' save file is now uploaded. I may have a few small tweaks to make to it, but everything major has been done and you can rely on it as a complete picture of the situation. The 'official' saves will be posted at the top of the posts for each individual year.
http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/kotr1320-1.zip
Ah, I forgot to include that. It will be 48 hours from the time of posting.
To keep things moving, it might be possible to execute some orders within that 48 hours waiting period, if they have no bearing on other orders. For example, Mini Econ's sally could be got out the way, as it does not affect anyone else either way.
More generally, in the last Chancellorship, I found it useful to think about Houses and Outremer as "sectors", and once all orders are in for a sector, they could be implemented regardless of any outstanding orders or battles relating to other sectors.
Already told Mini Econ to fight his sally whenever he wants, since the results will not impact any other moves.
Also, I have added the following line to the Direct Recuitment section and am posting it here so that people are aware:
If you want to use Direct Recruitment, you need to let me know in the PM and state specifically which units you want to recruit. My default choices will rarely include Direct Recruitment choices, so a typical response would be "Option B + Recruit 1 unit of Zweihanders and 1 unit of Sergeant Spearmen".
I am going off right now to make a specific list of all the normal HRE units and the common mercenaries. I will specifically state the recruitment price of each unit in the FAQ.
RoadKill
10-14-2007, 20:16
Econ, your going to fight my battle when I seige Budapust right?
Econ, your going to fight my battle when I seige Budapust right?
Yes, I would be honoured to. :bow:
RoadKill
10-14-2007, 20:29
Econ, I want Lorenz bloodied up, let him kill as much enemies as possible, but please please please don't let him die, I already lost 2 generals in a month don't want a third. Also when your done SACK THE PLACE.
FactionHeir
10-14-2007, 20:32
Something interesting at the Citadel (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=93351)
CA hasn't got any patches planned nor in the works for M2TW/Kingdoms.
Here is the list of specific unit prices. It is nothing really new, just a direct translation of the generic list I originally posted onto the exact units in the game. This is not meant to represent in-game prices at all and is more designed with players' abilities in mind. For instance, ranged units cost more than equivalent infantry because humans are far better at using them than the AI. You can thank FactionHeir for the crazy high prices on mounted units.
Pasted for ease of reference:
Town Militia - 1
Spear Militia - 1
Crossbow Militia - 2
Halberd Militia - 2
Merchant Cavalry Militia - 3
Forlorn Hope - 3
Peasant Archers - 2
Peasant Crossbowmen - 2
Pavise Crossbowmen - 3
Mounted Crossbowmen - 4
Sergeant Spearmen - 2
Armoured Sergeants - 2
Dismounted Feudal Knights (DFK) - 3
Dismounted Imperial Knights (DIK) - 3
Zwei Handers - 3
Mounted Sergeants - 3
Mailed Knights - 4
Feudal Knights - 4
Imperial Knights - 5
Gothic Knights - 5
Reiters - 5
Ballistae - 4
Catapults - 4
Trebuchets - 5
Bombards - 5
Grand Bombards - 5
Serpentines - 5
Cannons - 5
Basilisks - 5
Mercenary Spearmen - 2
Mercenary Crossbowmen - 3
Balkan Archers - 2
Turkopoles - 4
Privateerkev
10-14-2007, 21:22
Alright, first off, the official cataclysm thread is awesome. Hats off to TC for what seemed to be a lot of work. :2thumbsup:
Second, I have a question on Kaiser Economics (Kaisernomics?)
It seems the Kaiser gets 1 for each Imperial province that's attached to the Kaiser's location and not under siege. But it lists Vilinius and Acre. I have a couple of questions about this.
1.) Vilinius was never incorporated. If we are claiming that un-incorporated provinces are Imperial, then Vilinius, Constantinople, and Durazzo would all count. But, none have an uninterrupted path to the Kaiser's location so none would give him money.
2.) Acre is listed as the Kaiser's but Acre is Swabian and Outremer's. Once the Elberhard left his house, he left Swabia. Therefore, Acre is Jan's since it is enshrined in the Outremer charter.
3.) Antioch however, is Imperial. And it is in the Charter. So, does it give 1 to Jan and 1 to Elberhard?
This is in no way an attempt IC or OOC to deny the Kaiser money. It's just that I am a micro-managing, anal-retentive, number-cruncher and I like to keep track of these things. :yes:
Also, to clarify, do King/Dukes get 1 point for every territory under their control, with uninterrupted path to the avatar, and not under-siege, regardless of if it is a castle or city? And then an extra point if their territory has a loyal count?
So, Jan would have:
Antioch, Aleppo, and Acre. None have counts because Bresch (Aleppo) is in Europe and loses the crusader count status and Elberhard (Acre) became Kaiser and can't be a crusader count, and Antioch never has a count. So, that is 3. But Acre and Aleppo are besieged so that is -2. So, Jan has 1 like what is listed in the Official Cataclysm Thread (OCT) but it gets there differently. It does not give Jan Acre.
So, the Kaiser would have:
Vilinius, Constantinople, Durazzo, and joint control of Antioch with the King. This would be 4. But Vilinius, Constantinople, and Durrazo are all far and out of communication with the Kaiser so that is -3. So, the Kaiser would get 1 from Antioch. Again, this is the number that is listed in the OCT but it gets there differently. It gives Elberhard Acre when it is really Jan's and it does not account for Elberhard getting a point from Antioch when it is really Imperial and Jan's.
Furthermore, are we starting the time where re-captured territories will not automatically go back to their houses? Didn't we say that houses could keep what they re-capture during the cataclysm but the Kaiser can re-allocate at the next Diet to reward/punish?
How am I doing so far? :book:
FactionHeir
10-14-2007, 21:28
Castles do not give points, so the Acre point is moot until you convert it.
As King, you'd get bonus point if you got CCs. Emperors don't get bonus points I don't think. They get that +4 bonus TC mentioned.
Privateerkev
10-14-2007, 21:30
Dukes have been given one point for every settlement regardless of castle/city status. Look at Arnold's, Lothar's, and Ansehelm's profiles in the OCT. :yes:
nm, this has been figured out.
FactionHeir
10-14-2007, 21:34
Well, Hans only has a point for Bern but not Staufen.
Good catch, I missed that Antioch was Imperial, I was thinking it just belonged to Jan because it wasn't listed in the Chancellor's thread as Imperial. It has been corrected and Elberhard now has an extra +1 from Antioch. Acre is listed as Elberhard's because he is listed as the governor in the Chancellor's thread. Let me know if that is wrong.
Castles generate no income for anyone, not even Dukes, unless they are a rebel capital or there are some other unique circumstances. (See Lothar's financials - Please note that I tried to give each Duke an advantage of some sort. Ansehelm is rich so he doesn't need a bonus. Arnold is pretty rich too, so his 'bonus' is more for flavor and amusement. Lothar is moderately profitable, but is likely to lose a lot of territory quickly and thus the generic +1 to compensate (Plus the description of Deep Pockets indicates the result). Hans has the least of any Duke, but he has easily the best 'bonus' in the entire game to compensate.)
Vilnius was included simply as a note to myself. I consider it cut-off from pretty much everyone and hopefully it will fall to someone soon. It should've been disposed of several turns ago, but the AI has been annoying. Try to pretend it doesn't exist. Constantinople belongs only to Tancred because he captured it. I don't expect him to hang around though, so it will belong to no one next turn, even if the AI doesn't take it. Durazzo belongs to no one because it is rebel, not HRE.
For the next 10 turns, people who capture settlements control them. What happens to them afterwards will be up to the Diet, not me.
RoadKill
10-14-2007, 21:46
I think we should make a new IC thread for characters to discuss in, maybe a Imperial Mail Room, where letters can be sent in to be announced to the Reich, instead of the player sending a pm to everyone.
Privateerkev
10-14-2007, 21:57
TC, from what you have told me, I looked into it.
Ansehelm: looks ok
Hans: looks ok
Lothar: looks ok
Arnold: looks like he has 1 extra he shouldn't have. Ragusa is a castle. He should have 3 for cities, 2 for counts, and 1 for gambling. Which is 6 instead of 7.
Kaiser: Should not have Acre. Elberhard lost Acre when he became Kaiser. A Kaiser can not be a count/crusader count. The Chancellor thread was never updated regarding that.
Jan: Should have Acre. Dukes/King get what is theirs in the beginning. Acre is in the Charter therefore it is Outremer's. Therefore, it is Jan's. It doesn't give money because it is a castle but it is the principle of the matter. ^_^
Arnold, Elberhard, and Jan fixed. Removed Vilnius altogether to avoid future confusions.
Privateerkev
10-14-2007, 22:27
woot. thnx. :2thumbsup:
RoadKill
10-14-2007, 23:18
I had an error before that stated my disc can't be read, or I have the wrong disc in. While the disc was being runned in the hard-drive it would make a "Rrring" sound. I found out that there was a big fat scratch on it, but I doubt it was the problem. I finally got the damn game to uninstall and when I reinstall this thing popped up.
Feature Transfer Error
Feature: Packs
File: D:\main\packs\data_0.pack
Error: Data Error (Cyclic Redundancy Check)
I want to play KOTR so help me out, since all the other forums are ignoring me.
Dutch_guy
10-14-2007, 23:22
I'm loving the fact I'm the richest avatar at the moment. Quite irritating only being able to spend it on militia, oh well ~;)
RoadKill
Try using this (http://www.kvipu.com/CDCheck/) little program, and see if it manages to recover that File which keeps stalling your install.
:balloon2:
I'm loving the fact I'm the richest avatar at the moment. Quite irritating only being able to spend it on militia, oh well ~;)
I think you could exchange it with a player who has a castle. For example, IIRC, Dieter Bresch has Magdeberg but no income. Sounds like a possibility for a mutually beneficial exchange.
FactionHeir
10-14-2007, 23:29
I don't know the solution to the problem by heart, but I know for sure that there were people who had it before and got it fixed.
Check the Citadel and the Apothecary.
RoadKill
10-14-2007, 23:33
Thanks Dutch_Guy, I ran the program and it seems that I have 5 things wrong with the CD, the data_0.pack, data_1.pack, data_2.pack data_3.pack, data_4.pack and localized.pack
I think the scratch on the disc ruined those files, maybe not, but factionheir, there are a gajillion posts, It'll be impossible to find it.
FactionHeir
10-14-2007, 23:36
Hmm well if those files are noted as corrupt on your CD, then you probably will either have to remove a layer or get a replacement.
On the other hand, I'm not sure how that program reacts to .pack files. Defrag for instance doesn't like iso and mdf files, so if only pack files are affected, this might be suspect.
GeneralHankerchief
10-14-2007, 23:38
FH, I keep getting error messages when trying to update to 1.29. The archive is either in unknown format or damaged.
-edit- Nevermind, re-downloaded it and it's fine.
FactionHeir
10-14-2007, 23:43
Odd. It works fine here. Is it a CRC error?
If so, try redownloading (with and without a dl manager).
If it still won't work, I'll upload a second copy to make sure.
GeneralHankerchief
10-14-2007, 23:43
Heh, check the edit.
RoadKill
10-14-2007, 23:44
Aww.. this sucks, it means I'll never be able to play MTW 2 again :thumbsdown:. I'm not gonna go buy another copy and I don't think I can get a replacment for it from EB games.
If it is just a deep scratch, you can use various household products to remove it. Usually very mild abrasives. I have successfully removed scratches that made an otherwise unplayable game CD work fine with Soft Scrub. I'm sure you can find a list of other stuff that would work with google.
RoadKill
10-15-2007, 00:20
Well, I checked out some remedies on google, and I found an intresting one with toothpaste, of course I tested it out on a scratched disc I didn't need anymore, and I did what the guy said and magically 80% of the scratches dissapeared! I tried it on my MTW2 disc, unfortunatly didn't work, but my disc smells like mints, and its all buffed up shiny and all the tinier scratches are gone, but not the big one.
Here is the list of specific unit prices...
I guess Teutonic Knights cost 5 points? Statistically, they seem a match for Gothics and a clear step up from Imperials.
Well, I checked out some remedies on google, and I found an intresting one with toothpaste, of course I tested it out on a scratched disc I didn't need anymore, and I did what the guy said and magically 80% of the scratches dissapeared! I tried it on my MTW2 disc, unfortunatly didn't work, but my disc smells like mints, and its all buffed up shiny and all the tinier scratches are gone, but not the big one.
If it's a deep scratch, it will simply take a while to abrade it away. Just keep rubbing until it's gone. The finer the abrasive (toothpaste is very fine) the longer it will take, but the better the end result.
I guess Teutonic Knights cost 5 points? Statistically, they seem a match for Gothics and a clear step up from Imperials.
Yep, adding them to the list now. People with low piety will also have problems recruiting them.
An important potential source of revenue during the cataclysm is likely to be taking enemy settlements and ransoming prisoners. I could not see these events covered explicitly in the cataclysm rules. (Perhaps the settlement capture effect is aleady captured by the city income and the rule for scrapping buildings - although that would remove a lot of the trade-off between sacking, exterminating and occupying.)
What I was wondering was an exchange rate of 1500 florins = 1 recruitment point.
The rationale is that a basic spear militia costs 1 recruitment point. In the game, it costs 310 to recruit and 1250 in upkeep for the 10 turns of the cataclysm. So that's about 1500 florins (let's deal in round numbers).
Sacking can be pretty lucrative - Stetting yielded 20k, IIRC. So on the above exchange rate, that would translate into about 13 points or 4-5 decent units. I was a lot more generous to Fritz, but that was partly because I wanted to create enough units to outfit three players. 13 points is still more than most of us will get as fixed income throughout the cataclysm.
The exchange rate could be made less favourable for taking settlements, as cities will give 1 point per turn and scrapping buildings would also bring in a lot of cash.
I don't think ransoming gives you a lot of florins, unless you bag a Prince or King, but we could round up. Allowing a point or two seems reasonable. It will also help maintain the game's nice trade off between getting chivalry/dread points and getting cash.
gibsonsg91921
10-15-2007, 01:58
Hey guys, I know that a lot of you may be too busy to join another PBM, but for those who aren't and have Kingdoms, I'm going to start a Teutonic Order PBM, so hit up the sign-up thread and reserve your avatar.
StoneCold
10-15-2007, 02:16
TC, I think you need to move Edmund Becker back to from the mausoleum to the library. :P
RoadKill
10-15-2007, 02:20
Econ, forgot to tell you, if you think you have to odds of winning, do't wait for reinforcments just attack on your own, Lorenz has to prove Arnold that he can kick butt.
gibsonsg91921
10-15-2007, 02:41
cmon kingdoms people, join up so i can have some good experienced PBM players. get a good avatar if u come early!
RoadKill
10-15-2007, 02:55
Hardly anyone here has kingdoms haha.
gibsonsg91921
10-15-2007, 03:00
stig, econ, and bob do, maybe more im not sure. ik econ is busy, i was more wondering stig and bob, depending on how busy they are
GeneralHankerchief
10-15-2007, 03:17
***Serious post below***
Judging by my parsing of the various House Threads (don't yell at me, we're all guilty) and private communications I'm worried about the amount of sabotage that's going to occur during this cataclysm.
The whole idea that you're allowed to do whatever you want to other Electors and the fact that the rules basically encourage the sacking and plunder of your own settlements, i.e. destroying buildings in-game is very worrying for the situation in 1340.
I'm worried that we might break the game in these ten turns if we're not careful. TinCow and econ have stated that there's going to be more losing settlements than capturing them in this period, and that's fine, but there's always the time where we have to win them back. In addition, it's very possible that we're also going to have to get our finances straightened out and drive off the multitude of enemies from our land, this time without the help of the console and at the mercy of the game's financial system, not TinCow's.
There is 1340 to look forward to, and right now it doesn't look good. Strictly from an IC point of view, emotions are going to be running high after all of the internal sabotage and plunderings. I don't know if we'll be able to justify it if we were all able to convene and be satisfied with the legal resolutions. What's to stop firebrands like Dietrich or Becker (if they're at large) if they don't get what they want from going right back to rebellion?
In addition, we're actually going to have to get back to the game OOC as well. I had planned to run as Chancellor in 1340, and I still do, but if we all choose the "safe" option, plunder settlements, and retreat farther into the heartlands the Chancellor is going to be faced with a bunch of armies huddled around Frankfurt and Nuremberg, which won't be able to pay for all of them and the men won't be able to keep out the many French, Byzantine, Danish, Polish, Hungarian, Russian, Venetian, and Papal forces laying siege to those two territories.
Basically, I'm worried that we'll lose the game. While it's a rather fitting death for the PBM IC it definitely wasn't designed to be this way OOC. It was designed to provide a challenge to us, but I believe that the cataclysm is tottering on the edge between "challenge" and "impossibility."
If we want to keep playing well into the 1400s and even discover America, I suggest you all tread carefully when making your decisions.
gibsonsg91921
10-15-2007, 03:21
GH is right. we cant just kill everything.
RoadKill
10-15-2007, 03:26
I second that,
gibsonsg91921
10-15-2007, 03:28
id hate to be the accidental engineer of the end of the game. at least econ21 and tincow are planning it all, i just through my hat into the ring
Privateerkev
10-15-2007, 03:33
GH: You reap what you sow. People have chosen to play contentious rebellious characters. Of course this is a possible outcome of that. People do not have to plunder and sack other people's provinces. People don't have to kill Popes. People don't have to rebel. But if they choose to, then they should not be surprised IC or OOC at what happens. There are many reasons I am having Jan go the "co-operative" route in the cataclysm. One reason is simply to follow his traits. The other is because I do not want to create such a massively contentious and stressful environment to play in.
So, if people are worried about breaking the game, then they should think about what their avatar says and does. If we do break the game, we only have ourselves to blame. We wanted strife and difficulty. Now we have it. It's up to us IC and OOC to decide what to do about it.
I say lets play on and see what happens. If we end up breaking the game, we can just start another. If anyone is really worried about what the game is becoming, then they should sit and think about how they are adding to the environment.
The problems that GH is concerned with are exactly those that we wanted to create with the cataclysm. We want to renew the 'challenge' in the game, thus the cataclysm. Don't worry, though, I'm not going to let us totally collapse. I am trying to balance all aspect of the cataclysm so that people are constantly challenged and (hopefully) slowly pushed backwards. However, it is not my intention at all to destroy the Reich. If the AI becomes more dangerous than I want it to be in certain areas, I will use in-game events to give HRE players more of an edge.
Regarding finances from tearing buildings down, judging from the initial choices I have received, I don't think you'll need to worry about this too much. Maybe a few cities will suffer with a couple small buildings consumed elsewhere, but I don't expect people to burn down everything they see. Have some faith, I think people will generally be far less destructive than you think.
I will take it as a major compliment that econ21 and I have been able to make you afraid of losing the game though. :2thumbsup:
[edit]: A few PMs with Privateerkev have made me realize that I screwed up on the wealth calculations and gave the Dukes more then they should have had. However, I really like the wealth balance that I created at the start and I don't want to change it. Thus, I have changed the Fixed Income rules to reflect my error rather than the other way around. This in turn has made Dukes more profitable than I had otherwise anticipated. Thus, the rebel Capital rule has also changed to compensate. Rebel capitals now produce 2 income, even if they are castles. The new wording is as follows:
Provinces that belong to a Count who remains loyal to their Duke will provide 1 "control" income to BOTH the Count and the Duke, as well as a bonus 1 income to the Duke: resulting in 2 income for the Duke and 1 income for the loyal Count (assuming the city is not besieged, etc.). Counts that rebel from their Dukes will receive an income of 2 from the province they declare as their 'Capital' for the rest of the Cataclysm, provided that all other requirements for the income are met, even if they are castles. Thus, Wolfgang has an extra 1 wealth.
Apologies for any confusion. I became a lawyer because I'm better with words than numbers. Please keep an eye on my math, I may screw up again.
RoadKill
10-15-2007, 03:47
It is worrying because right now we're being crushed turn after turn non-stop.
OverKnight
10-15-2007, 05:21
No offense on the current exchange, PK, but Matthias isn't currently in a happy place. :2thumbsup:
Privateerkev
10-15-2007, 05:26
None taken OK. I'm just trying to be all co-operative and such. :D
The offer will still be there if Matt changes his mind. :yes:
I'm worried that we might break the game in these ten turns if we're not careful.
As TinCow said, I take this as a compliment but I would not worry too much. I think people should play it out in character and most characters have a pretty strong survival instinct. Try to keep your character alive and you may end up being more cooperative than one might think. I was impressed by the rallying round Austria after the Bucharest debacle.
GH: You reap what you sow. ... People don't have to kill Popes.
The general principle may be right, but on the specific point about the Pope - someone did have to kill the Pope. That was part of the script. OOC we wanted the loyalty hit and the possibility of Catholics ganging up on us (although I could not avoid the stupid AI crusading on Tunis on my last turn :wall:). GeneralHankerchief did not volunteer for the Pope-killer job - we actually had it scripted as Hans because he was the anti-Siegfried a couple of Diets back. However, the way the last Diet played out, it seemed more fitting that Dietrich do it and Hans play the loyalist. I think in the end GeneralHankerchief went through some pangs of conscience trying to justify Dietrich doing what was scripted. So, the defence that he was "just following orders" applies OOC here.
Ditto the Illuminati killing Siegfried for that matter.
OOC, GH and the Illuminati did me a favour.
IC Elberhard still hates them, though. :laugh4:
Provinces that belong to a Count who remains loyal to their Duke will provide 1 "control" income to BOTH the Count and the Duke, as well as a bonus 1 income to the Duke: resulting in 2 income for the Duke and 1 income for the loyal Count (assuming the city is not besieged, etc.). Counts that rebel from their Dukes will receive an income of 2 from the province they declare as their 'Capital' for the rest of the Cataclysm, provided that all other requirements for the income are met, even if they are castles. Thus, Wolfgang has an extra 1 wealth.
I think you are skewing things too far against rebels by making a province give a net 3 if loyal to a Duke and only 1 if rebel. Even when it was 2:1, I thought it was a little unfair - a province does not double in wealth just because the Duke gets a cut (one might say more likely the reverse!).
To get of the current conundrum, why not just say that a city yields 3 income and, if loyal, 2 of them must go to the current Duke? Then to give Hummel a break, say that if a rebel only has a castle, it is regarded as a city minus one income?
Making cities give 3 points rather than 1 also makes them more strategically valuable - 1 militia per city scarcely makes them break even (it may take 6 or more to garrison it).
I'm not arguing this from self-interest, of course, otherwise the Kaiser would be demanding his own cut.
OOC: I am talking to TC about getting 1 or 2 points knocked off of Ansehelm's income. I'll let you know what he decides.
:daisy:
And yes I sweared and I don't care at all
Privateerkev
10-15-2007, 07:43
The general principle may be right, but on the specific point about the Pope - someone did have to kill the Pope. That was part of the script. OOC we wanted the loyalty hit and the possibility of Catholics ganging up on us (although I could not avoid the stupid AI crusading on Tunis on my last turn :wall:). GeneralHankerchief did not volunteer for the Pope-killer job - we actually had it scripted as Hans because he was the anti-Siegfried a couple of Diets back. However, the way the last Diet played out, it seemed more fitting that Dietrich do it and Hans play the loyalist. I think in the end GeneralHankerchief went through some pangs of conscience trying to justify Dietrich doing what was scripted. So, the defence that he was "just following orders" applies OOC here.
Ditto the Illuminati killing Siegfried for that matter.
OOC, GH and the Illuminati did me a favour.
IC Elberhard still hates them, though. :laugh4:
Oh I have no problem with what the Illuminati and GH did OOC. But I have a huge problem IC. And GH is asking OOC for us to "tread carefully" when he is the one that agreed to have his character be highly controversial. He is worried about us breaking the game when his character has significantly upped the amount of tension in the game.
So I can understand wanting us to be understanding in the OOC thread towards GH for helping you guys out with a script. But, why should I give him a pass IC when his avatar did something that is completely anathema to everything my character stands for? He might not have volunteered but I doubt you and TC held a gun to his head. He didn't have to take the job.
So, that's what I meant by "you reap what you sow." I have zero problem with what anyone has done OOC. But if you are going to come onto the OOC thread, and ask all of us to "tread carefully", then I am going to ask you to examine your own avatar's behavior.
:daisy:
And yes I sweared and I don't care at all
Well, then your taking the income hit because TC had calculated you as having 1 point for Jan being a loyal count. Since Ansehelm just fired Jan, I guess he can't quit. But Ansehelm just lost 1/8 of his income.
No, Jan has never been a count, he can't even be a count as he's King.
Sides Ansehelm has 3 for Loyal Counts: Dieter, Fritz and Peter
And Tancred when he gets something
Privateerkev
10-15-2007, 07:49
Dieter has a castle. You don't get anything from that. Ansehelm was receiving the 3 from Peter, Fritz, and Jan. Now, Ansehelm fired Jan so that is dealt with. I pm'd TC with the update.
:daisy: ... go and take other people down, I'll make Tancred count of Prague to get it back
EDIT: which I obviously can't post in the Diet, so take it from here
Sides you're wrong anyway, as Arnold has 2 from loyal counts, while it's counts have no income.
It's not about their cities, it's about the counts being loyal
:laugh4:
Privateerkev
10-15-2007, 07:54
:daisy:... go and take other people down, I'll make Tancred count of Prague to get it back
It's nothing personal. You gave Jan a county. Econ ruled that Jan could have it and put it in the chancellor report thread. You never took the county away. TC calculated a bonus for Ansehelm having Jan be a loyal count. Jan got pissed at what Ansehelm and some of the other Franconians were planning. I talked to TC about how to deny Ansehelm the 1 income. Quitting is what I came up with. TC ok'd it. Now, Anshelm fired Jan so it's settled. Ansehelm loses the 1 point till he appoints another count of Hamburg. Life goes on. PM TC if you have questions
You never took the county away.
I did immediatly after Jan refused it
Privateerkev
10-15-2007, 07:58
I'll make Tancred count of Prague to get it back
EDIT: which I obviously can't post in the Diet, so take it from here
Yes, you can try to make Tancred the count of Prague. Cecil might have a slight problem with that though. ^_^
It's not about their cities, it's about the counts being loyal
the "loyal count" needs to have a city for the Duke to get the loyalty bonus. Ask TC
I did immediatly after Jan refused it
Well, you didn't make it clear enough for Econ to notice. It's been in the chancellor thread for awhile now.
Warluster
10-15-2007, 08:01
Well, I checked out some remedies on google, and I found an intresting one with toothpaste, of course I tested it out on a scratched disc I didn't need anymore, and I did what the guy said and magically 80% of the scratches dissapeared! I tried it on my MTW2 disc, unfortunatly didn't work, but my disc smells like mints, and its all buffed up shiny and all the tinier scratches are gone, but not the big one.
Ah, could you please provide a link? It sounds pretty handy, and I have a few games which need fixing. And I don't know the website and what to look up in google so...
OverKnight
10-15-2007, 08:06
Anyway, Jan can't be a Count of Hamburg because he still is King of Outremer and outside the Houses.
Let's chill out a bit and enjoy the Chaos.
Yes, you can try to make Tancred the count of Prague. Cecil might have a slight problem with that though. ^_^
As soon as I'm able to reinforce the Teutonic Army he's going to get a hard time anyway.
Just some OOC advice:
Don't move anywhere to the north
Privateerkev
10-15-2007, 08:08
Anyway, Jan can't be a Count of Hamburg because he still is King of Outremer and outside the Houses.
Let's chill out a bit and enjoy the Chaos.
Econ ruled that Jan can be count of Hamburg while King. He was even considering giving Jan the +1 influence. It's all moot now though. :yes:
OverKnight
10-15-2007, 08:15
Moot indeed. Hell, Matthias is officially the Count of Milan, but that don't mean squat under the current circumstances.
BTW, I'm enjoying playing him as a vengeance obsessed, unstable Man of God with a Vorpal Sword. Good times.
Privateerkev
10-15-2007, 08:18
Moot indeed. Hell, Matthias is officially the Count of Milan, but that don't mean squat under the current circumstances.
BTW, I'm enjoying playing him as a vengeance obsessed, unstable Man of God with a Vorpal Sword. Good times.
Yeah but at least you give Lothar +1 point for being a "loyal count" of a city. Your helping your house. :D
BTW, I dug the story. :yes:
OverKnight
10-15-2007, 08:36
Cool, I wanted to reference some of the past stories concerning Adana. Also I just finished a history of the First Crusade, and the author mentioned how religious artifacts, such as pieces of the True Cross or the Holy Lance, fueled the zeal of the Crusaders. In fact the Holy Lance, or a piece of metal someone promoted as the Holy Lance, was found in Antioch after the Crusaders took the city.
I also got the Iron Bridge name I used in the Battle Report from the same book. It's an actual bridge over the Orontes and survived until 1973.
Oh I have no problem with what the Illuminati and GH did OOC. But I have a huge problem IC.
...I have zero problem with what anyone has done OOC. But if you are going to come onto the OOC thread, and ask all of us to "tread carefully", then I am going to ask you to examine your own avatar's behavior.
I was picking you up on the "People don't have to kill Popes" remark. This is the OOC thread and OOC someone had to. Asking GH to examine his own avatar's behaviour in that specific regard is unfair. He was only doing what I asked him to.
It's a small point, but I know players can get understandably angry if they get the flak for things I set them up to do. IC they have to take it, I am afraid, but OOC we should be nice. ~:grouphug:
But, why should I give him a pass IC ...
I never asked you to - I said Elberhard hates him IC - but this is the OOC thread.
Thinking a bit more about this, I guess my response to GH's post is don't meta-game. Just role-play your character. If Dietrich wants to run for Chancellor in 1340 that's a great reason for Dietrich to be agitating IC for people not to destroy buildings etc[1]. But OOC, I would just let people play as they wish. Let TinCow worry about keeping the game going.
Even then, I rather agree with GH's "fitting death" comment: I think it would be pretty awesome for this game to end in an AI victory as a result of the cataclysm. Only one PBM I know of ever ended in an AI victory (a Saxon one). I don't want it to end yet and would bet serious money it won't, but if it did end that way, it would be going out with one heck of a bang IMO.
[1]Maybe we are suffering from the closure of the Diet, so that IC stuff that is not specific to one house is getting transferred here? I am not sure what the answer is - a public announcements thread? That would have been suitable for Becker's proclamation and any calls for restraint that Dietrich, Elberhard etc want to make? I don't want to re-open the Diet proper though. I don't think we should be debating back and forth, but issuing various proclamations against each other sounds characterful.
Dutch_guy
10-15-2007, 12:01
I think you could exchange it with a player who has a castle. For example, IIRC, Dieter Bresch has Magdeberg but no income. Sounds like a possibility for a mutually beneficial exchange.
Yes it does indeed. However, how would this work ? Were we to arrange something, would TC simply warp me to Magdenburg and Dieter to Constantinople ?
:balloon2:
Yes it does indeed. However, how would this work ? Were we to arrange something, TC 'd simply warp me to Magdenburg and Dieter to Constantinople ?
No, I don't think warping would achieve much unless you want to abandon your army. I was just thinking you could ask Dieter to raise some troops for you in Magdeburg - perhaps in return for a token gift of resources. Quite how they would benefit you if you are in Constantinople and he in Magdeburg is indeed a conundrum. Perhaps just hold the city for as long as you can - milk it for its revenue - and then when the enemy closes in, get TC to warp you out? You'd have to consult him about this though, I am just musing.
BTW, you need to keep your eye on the savegame, as Tancred is in perhaps the most precarious position of any avatar.
I think you are skewing things too far against rebels by making a province give a net 3 if loyal to a Duke and only 1 if rebel. Even when it was 2:1, I thought it was a little unfair - a province does not double in wealth just because the Duke gets a cut (one might say more likely the reverse!).
To get of the current conundrum, why not just say that a city yields 3 income and, if loyal, 2 of them must go to the current Duke? Then to give Hummel a break, say that if a rebel only has a castle, it is regarded as a city minus one income?
Making cities give 3 points rather than 1 also makes them more strategically valuable - 1 militia per city scarcely makes them break even (it may take 6 or more to garrison it).
I'm not arguing this from self-interest, of course, otherwise the Kaiser would be demanding his own cut.
Point taken. Privateerkev pointed out two other errors I made as well: Arnold has 1 more than he should have and Lothar has 1 less than he should have. However, I like the current balance of wealth so I am keeping it. I will take a good look at the city/castle/count/duke income system today and try to reform it in a manner that balances out. However, I will not make any more changes this turn because I do not want to confuse people. Any more adjustments will only take effect next turn: the wealth numbers on the current turn post can be relied upon 100%.
Also, for those asking, wealth you do not spend carries over to the next turn.
GeneralHankerchief
10-15-2007, 13:34
I'm going to take the initiative and post an "Imperial Messenger Service" thread where people can make proclamations and the news will get out quickly.
Regarding ransoming as a source of revenue:
It will certainly translate into wealth, but not at any fixed ratio. I will take a look at the circumstances of the battle as well as the needs of the invididual avatars and make a decision accordingly. Laying out a specific formula will simply make it harder for me to achieve the balance that I want. I will also probably give small (1 or 2) bonuses for victories over large armies, even without a random. Call it looting the corpses and the baggage train, if you want. I am trying to find a good balance between having too little wealth to build any armies at all, and too much wealth that allows you to stomp all over the AI. If some players find themselves losing far more territory than they should, I will compensate with a few extra bonuses. If some players are doing better than I want them to, I will find some way to penalize them to restore the balance.
I apologize if this seems contrived, but the whole point of the cataclysm was to provide a challenge. If people get too powerful due some random economic rules I created, it will ruin the event.
The only area I will not give bonuses or penalties in is PvP/rebellion conflicts. Players who are attacking and fighting each other will not be adjusted if they are winning or losing. I have tried to give the rebels enough of an initial advantage to give them all a chance of succeeding. However, from the starting point on the playing field will be level. If you are fighting other players, you sink or swim based on your own abilities.
Regarding Tancred von Tyrolia:
I have already given him a safe way out of his situation with his wealth intact. He is in a ridiculously bad spot. Dutch_guy, I will say this now so that there are no misunderstandings: If you stay in Constantinople I will not guarantee that future 'safe' options will allow you to escape with all your wealth. If you think you can hold on there and survive, go for it. However, 'escape' will start costing money. I simply will not allow you to suddenly teleport to Franconia with 30 wealth, since that would ruin the balance of the game. I have already given you 12, which is WAY more than anyone else has, especially a lowly Count. I have also given you a way to escape with all of that money at no risk. Do not expect me to be quite so generous in the future.
Stuperman
10-15-2007, 14:15
How is the battle order going to be decided? I mean, are we waiting till everyone has issued orders, then deciding on a take-the-save order or....?
As I said in the Franconian thread:
Edict 13.1:
The Franconian Household Armies are authorized to conquer the city of Antwerp and the city of Krakow from our mutual enemies. On conquest of the mentioned cities, they are immediately given to the House of Franconia, by will of Emperor Siegfried.
Proposed: Kaiser Siegfried
Seconded: Prinz Elberhard, Jan von Hamburg
Krakow is Franconian ... or was
Dutch_guy
10-15-2007, 14:30
Regarding Tancred von Tyrolia:
I have already given him a safe way out of his situation with his wealth intact. He is in a ridiculously bad spot. Dutch_guy, I will say this now so that there are no misunderstandings: If you stay in Constantinople I will not guarantee that future 'safe' options will allow you to escape with all your wealth. If you think you can hold on there and survive, go for it. However, 'escape' will start costing money. I simply will not allow you to suddenly teleport to Franconia with 30 wealth, since that would ruin the balance of the game. I have already given you 12, which is WAY more than anyone else has, especially a lowly Count. I have also given you a way to escape with all of that money at no risk. Do not expect me to be quite so generous in the future.
I don't expect you to at all, escaping with all the money I have would be ridiculous. With at least three different enemies in the vicinity, each with at least a stack a years march away.
Option B really is the only way I'm getting out of my predicament alive (as you've judged correctly), as there's absolutely no other way I'm outrunning those scary Hungarian stacks. Having other units slow me down won't work, as any of those enemy stacks would make short work of my force and my avatar.
Also, the wealth I manage to keep during my run to the east will be used when I get back to my homeland.
:balloon2:
OverKnight
10-15-2007, 14:30
Krakow is imperial, it was promised but never assigned AFAIK. Moot point mostly.
Edmund Becker is in Prague, different city, which is Austrian. Has been since 1100 or so. Austria's second city.
How is the battle order going to be decided? I mean, are we waiting till everyone has issued orders, then deciding on a take-the-save order or....?
Prior to the end of the time limit, I am specifically telling people by PM when they can fight their battles. During this time I will only let 'non-contentious' battles be fought. Anything that could possibly impact other peoples' decisions (such as anything going on in Swabia) will have to wait until the time limit is up. This is to make sure that all the orders are decided and nothing can be changed. So far, one battle has been fought in Outremer and two more are pending, one in Austria and another in Outremer. The people who are fighting them know who they are and have been told so via PM.
After the time limit is up, I will post in here a list a battles to be fought, plus I will send out PMs to the players. You guys can then take the save in turn like we've been doing for the last several months. If there are battles that MUST be fought in a particular order, I will specifically say that.
-------------
Here is my proposal for altering the Fixed Income system. It will result in a lot more money for everyone, but I think I set the unit prices high enough to compensate. If it turns out to be too much money, I will find other ways to adjust the difficulty. My concern here is achieving a fair balance for everyone. Please let me know what you think (especially econ21).
City - Base Income 3
Castle - Base Income 1
Rebel Capital - +1, regardless of whether it is a City or a Castle. (As a result of this, I will allow rebels to re-consider their choice of Capital, if they have already made it.)
If a loyal Count exists, 1 wealth is diverted from Duke's income from the loyal Count's settlement to the loyal Count.
All provinces produce +1 when their Lord starts the turn inside its borders. If a province has both a Duke and a loyal Count, the loyal Count is the only one who can receive this bonus.
This balance does the following things:
*Gives people incentives to protect their lands.
*Gives Counts who control Castles some benefit, since they currently have almost none.
*Gives rebels the chance to make very wealthy cities. A rebel city capital with the rebel located inside the province can produce 5 wealth per turn. The best anyone else can do is +4.
*Makes loyal Counts drain money from Dukes rather than give them money. Counts who control cities could make far more money (3) by being rebels than by being loyal. This makes sense, since more people are sharing the same resources. Loyalty has to be its own reward, and Dukes will have to actively come up with ways to reward their followers, such as giving them wealth, reinforcements, etc.
Because of these changes, a few avatar 'special abilities' will have to be altered as follows:
Fritz von Kastilien
For the rest of the cataclysm, Stettin will pay you 2 wealth per turn and your Duke 2 wealth per turn, but only when you start your turn in the province. If you start the turn outside the province, you will get 0 wealth and your Duke will get 1 wealth.
Lorenz Zirn
You are a Budding Bureaucrat and Good with Taxes. If you end your turn inside a province you control, you will gain +2 instead of the normal +1.
Lothar Steffen
Deep Pockets means that you produce +1 wealth per turn, no matter where you are or what your circumstances.
Krakow is imperial, it was promised but never assigned AFAIK. Moot point mostly.
From the Edict it was automatically assigned, but as you said, that's beside the point now anyway
...My concern here is achieving a fair balance for everyone...
Why does everything have to be fair? My parents spent a lot of time teaching me that life isn't fair!
:egypt:
As far as the changes go, that makes better sense to me. Fritz will be happy to contribute his fair share to the cause of Franconia.
Privateerkev
10-15-2007, 15:26
TC: Let me see if I have this clear:
1.) Dukes/King get 3 points for every city and 1 point for every castle that is not sieged and has a clear line of communication.
2.) If there is a loyal count of a settlement. That Count will get 3 if it is a city and 1 if it is a castle.
3.) In addition, 1 point will move from the Duke to the Count. Giving a Duke 2 for a city with a loyal count and 4 for the loyal count. This would give a loyal count +5 if he is in the territory.
How am I doing?
As for Krackow/Prague, there seems to be some confusion.
1.) Krackow was in an edict at the last Diet to be taken and gifted to Franconia.
2.) Austria took it and left it. It is legally Franconian.
3.) Ansehelm has stated that he plans to take Prague on the basis that it is Franconian.
4.) But Prague is Austrian. (or was but now it's independent)
TC: Let me see if I have this clear:
1.) Dukes/King get 3 points for every city and 1 point for every castle that is not sieged and has a clear line of communication.
2.) If there is a loyal count of a settlement. That Count will get 3 if it is a city and 1 if it is a castle.
3.) In addition, 1 point will move from the Duke to the Count. Giving a Duke 2 for a city with a loyal count and 4 for the loyal count. This would give a loyal count +5 if he is in the territory.
How am I doing?
1) Correct
2&3) Wrong. The Count gets 1 if it is a city and 1 if it is a castle. He gets his money by diverting 1 from the Duke's income. It is not additional income. Thus, a city with a loyal Count will generate 1 for the Count and 2 for the Duke. A castle with a loyal Count will generate 1 for the Count and 0 for the Duke.
As for Krackow/Prague, there seems to be some confusion.
1.) Krackow was in an edict at the last Diet to be taken and gifted to Franconia.
2.) Austria took it and left it. It is legally Franconian.
3.) Ansehelm has stated that he plans to take Prague on the basis that it is Franconian.
4.) But Prague is Austrian. (or was but now it's independent)
How about:
Stig is a blithering idiot and mixed them up, bloody Polish cities. Put Warsaw in and I'm gone entirely.
Mind you tho. Becker did have the option to attack Krakow if I'm correct
Privateerkev
10-15-2007, 15:36
TC:
Alright,
I like it. :2thumbsup:
Dukes/King will still get an excess income but they will have more of an incentive to "spread the wealth" to keep the counts loyal.
Stig: Becker had the option to attack Breslau but you don't know that IC. And you definitely don't know what option he picked. TC was just trying to show what options people had.
Becker had the option to attack Breslau but you don't know that IC. And you definitely don't know what option he picked. TC was just trying to show what options people had.
I know, but he had Krakow in as well. Hence why I mixed up Krakow with Prague
AussieGiant
10-15-2007, 16:23
Stig,
We are cool now.
Although, if you want to attack Prague it is a "separatist" holding.... :)
Cecil...two dukes gunning for you....so much for being in a quiet part of the neighbourhood.
FactionHeir
10-15-2007, 17:23
AG: The IMS was written by GH not Dietrich with some IC added flair. So your commenr is somewhat displaced.
TC: Sounds interesting. Fair for Swabia too which only has 1 Count and 1 Duke and a lot of dry land.
Please let me know what you think (especially econ21).
Sounds good to me. :2thumbsup:
My only concern now is a self-interested one, as I am a bit confused how the Kaiser and Outremer fit in.
I guess you are assuming that the Kaiser is Lord of Imperial provinces and the King of Outremer is Lord of Outremer provinces? However, the only Imperial province that can provide Elberhard income is Antioch which is also an Outremer province.
Since the King of Outremer is supposed to govern Antioch, I propose he be treated as if he were a Count of that city - so he takes one, Elberhard takes two. The other Outremer provinces, I say we just treat as the King's, and forget about them belonging to Houses (a de facto kind of thing - the Houses are far away and out of communication; by contrast, the Kaiser retook Antioch and is hanging around it with a big army).
So King Jan will also takes one each for being Lord of Aleppo and Acre, unless he appoints a Count for them.
Any objections, TinCow and Privateerkev?
The crusaders could always tear up the Charter and effectively rebel against the Lord (King) of Outremer, but hopefully we are all going to play nice.
The other issue relating to the Kaiser is reconquered provinces (including any provinces conquered by one House from another). For reasons unconnected with revenue during the cataclysm - basically to introduce an element of politicking - I want reconquered provinces to be formally Imperial. Then they can be re-allocated by the Kaiser in the next Diet session (or a Charter Amendment if the Diet wants to remove that power from the Kaiser). So, I am happy for them to be allocated de facto as TinCow sees fit during the cataclysm (presumably with possession being 9/10 of the law), but de jure, they will be Imperial when this thing ends.
Privateerkev
10-15-2007, 18:17
The way I see it,
Jan is "Duke" of Outremer. Therefore, he gets 3 for Antioch. He named Elberhard "count" of Antioch. So Elberhard gets 1 and Jan gets 2.
If the issue is money, Jan would probably just gift Elberhard more money. For Jan, it is the principle of the matter. He is King so he is going to stay as "Duke" of Outremer. If the Kaiser takes two from Antioch, he would be saying that Jan should not be King anymore. Which could make for an interesting conversation. :yes:
If the Kaiser wants Jan to be King, he needs to let Jan be King. :beam:
As for Acre and Aleppo, your right. Jan will try to give em to the other two counts if they want them. TC has already approved of Jan being able to give counties out without regard to house property.
My only concern now is a self-interested one, as I am a bit confused how the Kaiser and Outremer fit in.
I guess you are assuming that the Kaiser is Lord of Imperial provinces and the King of Outremer is Lord of Outremer provinces? However, the only Imperial province that can provide Elberhard income is Antioch which is also an Outremer province.
Since the King of Outremer is supposed to govern Antioch, I propose he be treated as if he were a Count of that city - so he takes one, Elberhard takes two. The other Outremer provinces, I say we just treat as the King's, and forget about them belonging to Houses (a de facto kind of thing - the Houses are far away and out of communication; by contrast, the Kaiser retook Antioch and is hanging around it with a big army).
So King Jan will also takes one each for being Lord of Aleppo and Acre, unless he appoints a Count for them.
Any objections, TinCow and Privateerkev?
The crusaders could always tear up the Charter and effectively rebel against the Lord (King) of Outremer, but hopefully we are all going to play nice.
If you want Elberhard to be "Duke" for Antioch and Jan to be "loyal Count", that is fine with me, but you will both have to agree to it. If Jan does not agree to it, you can either abide by his wishes (he remains "Duke" and Elberhard is "loyal Count") or simply seize the place for your own. That would be a superficial matter since Elberhard is inside it and has a larger army. Elberhard would then receive all 3 income and he could disperse 1 to Jan if he wanted to, but it would not be required.
The other issue relating to the Kaiser is reconquered provinces (including any provinces conquered by one House from another). For reasons unconnected with revenue during the cataclysm - basically to introduce an element of politicking - I want reconquered provinces to be formally Imperial. Then they can be re-allocated by the Kaiser in the next Diet session (or a Charter Amendment if the Diet wants to remove that power from the Kaiser). So, I am happy for them to be allocated de facto as TinCow sees fit during the cataclysm (presumably with possession being 9/10 of the law), but de jure, they will be Imperial when this thing ends.
Possession is 10/10ths of the law during the cataclysm. I will leave all other matters of ownership to the will of the Diet in 1340.
Privateerkev
10-15-2007, 18:33
If you want Elberhard to be "Duke" for Antioch and Jan to be "loyal Count", that is fine with me, but you will both have to agree to it. If Jan does not agree to it, you can either abide by his wishes (he remains "Duke" and Elberhard is "loyal Count") or simply seize the place for your own. That would be a superficial matter since Elberhard is inside it and has a larger army. Elberhard would then receive all 3 income and he could disperse 1 to Jan if he wanted to, but it would not be required.
Jan would not agree. He sees himself as King. If the Kaiser took Antioch by force, Jan would see it as the Kaiser saying he did not have confidence in the King. And Jan would quit since he lost the Kaiser's confidence. It's not the money, it's the principle. :beam:
So, if Elberhard seizes Antioch by force, please tell me the moment it happens in-game because it will drastically alter how I play and interact with the Kaiser. :yes:
FactionHeir
10-15-2007, 18:36
I guess I should start hoping Elberhard survives the cataclysm or Swabia might end up Bavarian and Franconian :laugh4:
If you want Elberhard to be "Duke" for Antioch and Jan to be "loyal Count", that is fine with me, but you will both have to agree to it.
No, what Privateerkev says is fine. I think I missed an earlier nuance when he spoke of Antioch being an Imperial province. It's Imperial in the way that Acre is Swabian: i.e. in my less nuanced translation, it's not. That's fine by me, as that is also the interpretation I've adopted in the playlist - the provinces in Outremer are listed as the provinces in Outremer, not as Imperial ones. I am at least glad the Kaiser can be a Crusader Count of Antioch when he could not be one of Acre - the logic is curious, but I won't debate it for fear of leaving poor Elberhard completely destitute!
I realise now that it will be stretch in 1340 asking people to allow Elberhard to assign recaptured provinces to Houses, so I would necessarily push that too hard. However, I think it would be informative to have a list of provinces that are or have been HRE, and a potted history, so that we can refer to it in 1340when we come to a division of the spoils. I'll post it in character in the messages thread GH created and I will maintain it. It will be in Elberhard's "voice", but the facts should be objective - so please PM me with any corrections.
Privateerkev
10-15-2007, 22:01
I am at least glad the Kaiser can be a Crusader Count of Antioch when he could not be one of Acre - the logic is curious, but I won't debate it for fear of leaving poor Elberhard completely destitute!
Simple. Jan burned that part of the Outremer Charter. :yes:
a.) The limit that says Crusader Counts can only be granted at Diet sessions is gone for the duration of the cataclysm.
b.) The limit that says that counties have to be given according to house affiliation is gone for the duration of the cataclysm.
c.) The fact that Antioch normally can't have a count is ignored for the duration of the cataclysm.
Therefore, Jan can assign who he wants, where he wants, when he wants. :beam:
These have all passed through with the approval of Outremer's department of legal affairs. (TC) :book:
As for why the Kaiser could not be count of Acre, and could be count of Antioch, that is simple. When the question of whether Elberhard was still count of Acre came up, Jan had not set the Charter on fire yet. So it was illegal. Now he has so it is legal for the next 10 turns. So, if Elberhard truly wants Acre, he can have it for the duration of the cataclysm.
It's good to be the King... :laugh4:
GeneralHankerchief
10-15-2007, 22:07
...and that's an example of a 10-Chivalry character?
Hi Pot, Kettle here...
Privateerkev
10-15-2007, 22:15
...and that's an example of a 10-Chivalry character?
Hi Pot, Kettle here...
Well, saying Jan burned it was for dramatic effect. What really happened was that he used his power as King to enact "emergency powers" for the duration of the "emergency". We're all trashing so many other parts of the Charter that Jan's acts seem minor in comparison. :yes:
All he did was give himself the same flexibility that Dukes have in naming bonded-counts. So, he appropriated a Ducal power for the duration of the cataclysm in order to get himself and his men the money they need to survive and protect others. Dassel is quite welcome to sue Jan over it when the Diet gets back into session. :beam:
Jan might have 13 chivalry but he does have 2 dread. I use this to give Jan a tiny bit of "moral ambiguity". Compared to what other characters are doing, Jan comes off as a saint. :2thumbsup:
So have no fear, the Outremer Charter is quite intact and un-burned. Just certain parts are being ignored with the permission of TC. ^_^
GeneralHankerchief
10-15-2007, 22:20
Yeah, but if you go that angle then actually Jan has 11 chivalry. 11, meaning he's more than a living saint.
All I'm saying is don't come on me like a ton of bricks IC for doing what I did and then say you burnt significant parts of the Outremer Charter with little smiley faces at the end. If RP is the law, then you're chivalrous. Deal with it.
Peace out! ~:grouphug:
I've posted a table on the provinces. Can anyone enlighten me about who the heirs to Austria and Bavaria are, if they have been appointed?
Privateerkev
10-15-2007, 22:25
Yeah, but if you go that angle then actually Jan has 11 chivalry. 11, meaning he's more than a living saint.
All I'm saying is don't come on me like a ton of bricks IC for doing what I did and then say you burnt significant parts of the Outremer Charter with little smiley faces at the end. If RP is the law, then you're chivalrous. Deal with it.
Ok,
"Rebelling against a Duke, raising an illegal army, and killing a Pope causing an excommunication that is responsible for the deaths of thousands of people due to massive civil unrest." versus "assigning a Swabian Crusader County to a Franconian outside of a Diet session."
So yes, Jan is quite comfortable with his actions and sees no contradiction with calling for Dassel's head. Your more than welcome to bring all of this up at the next Diet session and we'll see how it goes.
my remarks about burning the Charter was an OOC joke. I did not realize it would set you off. :bow:
RoadKill
10-16-2007, 00:05
Econ, did you fight my battle yet?
StoneCold
10-16-2007, 00:25
RK, I think econ fought the battle already if you read this post -> https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1712601&postcount=3
For Budapest, it read that your avatar captured and sack it in 1320.
RoadKill
10-16-2007, 00:32
Also Econ, do you want to right the battle report or do you just want to tell me what happens so I can right it.
Hi Roadkill, I wrote a battle report from the perspective of some pavise crossbowmen who spent most of the assault on the walls.
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1712804&postcount=163
It gives the basic facts. If you want to write a story from Lorenz's perspective, you can go ahead - you can use my screenshots; I can delete my commentary or we can mesh them together. Whatever works for you.
RoadKill
10-16-2007, 00:59
Nevermind Econ, I like your write-up thanks for such a good battle, you're pretty good.
AussieGiant
10-16-2007, 09:55
The Roadkill/Econ combo is a good one.
Me likey likey!! :yes:
Good work, people. All of the orders are in for 1320, well before the deadline. Four battles have already been fought and there are four more left to go. Two of the battles will have to wait until this evening. One of them is mine and the other is Hans'. I need to edit the save a bit before Factionheir can play his battle.
That leaves two battles that can be fought immediately:
Fredericus Erlach:
You are sallying force to destroy the Sicilians who are besieging Ajaccio.
Duke Ansehelm:
You are attacking the Russian force that is besieging Thorn.
For all players, make sure you post when you are taking the save and then post the new save in this thread. Also, please PM me with the battle results. (kills, losses, etc.) Please include information on the number of prisoners caught and whether they were released, ransomed (successfully or not), or executed. Also, if you sacked or exterminated a city, tell me how many florins you received and how many people died.
http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/kotr1320-4.zip
[edit] The Library will also be fully updated tonight due to the excellent work of Northnovas, who did ALL of the mugshots.
FactionHeir
10-16-2007, 13:43
Stig and PK are cracking me up. Help! :laugh4:
Privateerkev
10-16-2007, 13:45
I should probably bring this back into the OOC thread. ;)
You know what they mean PK, don't make an issue of it
I did make an issue of it. That's what my first post was for. ^^
Stop spamming PK, you know what is meant
technically, we were both spamming. But, I'll stop and keep it in here. I got my point across.
OverKnight
10-16-2007, 13:48
We could always start an "KOTR PBM: Inane Banter Thread" for topics too insipid for even the OOC thread. :inquisitive:
Privateerkev
10-16-2007, 13:52
I once brought that up when I was floating ideas for the Tavern thread. An OOC spam thread could be fun. I would be up for it if others are. :balloon2:
No spam on the Org please. This also applies to the OOC thread, as often there is key information in it - like "fight your battle within 24 hours or die" messages - and it's a pain if you have to shovel through spam to find those nuggets.
Privateerkev's first post from the messenger thread:
OOC: GH did ask us to form our posts in the format of letters to the whole Reich. So far, we have had no posts of this type except Elberhard's "state of the Reich" report.
I don't think this was meant to become the "Diet thread in exile".
The way I read these posts IC, is as if Jan got a letter in the mail. So far Jan got:
1.) A random piece of mail from Arnold saying that Dietrich made a poor example of something. I don't know what it is but Dietrich used the wrong words somewhere and somehow. I don't know the context so I just throw the letter in the trash.
2.) Then I get a "state of the Reich address" from the Kaiser. This is useful and I keep it.
3.) Then, quite unexpectently, I get 2 pieces of mail. Lothar and Arnold decided to write me and tell me they have an heir and won't tell me who. I shrug, throw the mail in the trash, and go about my day.
4.) I get a letter from Peter asking about Constantinople and red and Tancred. I shrug again and throw it out.
I take PK's point about the Messenger thread. I think it should be for IC "proclamations" like Becker's PM on Prague declaring independence from Austria. Not for IC back and forth, still less OOC spam. I am going to start pruning the thread ruthlessly now.
Some relevant IC stuff deleted from the messenger thread:
TinCow
I have declared an heir in my will. Unless I say otherwsie, that document will be kept sealed until the day of my death. Bavaria will have a clear line of succession when I leave this Earth, but I choose not to make it public knowledge at this time.
Gibson
Why is the city of Wahrheitburg in red, Elberhard? It is not in rebellion. Tancred is perfectly loyal to the Reich, to Franconia, and to the Kaiser (or as loyal as I am Peter says under his breath).
AussieGiant
My succession is also set at this time.
Those that are affected will be contacted in the event of my death.
Good. I don't mind there being a 'notice board' for annoucements, as long as it isn't a place for actual dialog. Part of the reason we closed the Diet and Tavern was to help produce the feeling of a lack of unity within the Reich (we could easily have moved them to Frankfurt if we had wanted them to remain open). People can still use the House/Outremer threads for local area communication, but there is no central authority whatsoever in the Reich at the moment. Preventing global IC conversations will help mimic this.
Going to fight tonight when I get back from playing sports
Stuperman
10-16-2007, 16:33
There's a small chance that I'll get to fight the battle in about an hour, but more than likely it'll be 6-7 hours.
Stuperman
10-16-2007, 18:32
ok, It's not happening right now, I'll fight the battle after dinner, aprox 7 hours/.
Gah, I'm home late, damned this social life
FactionHeir
10-16-2007, 23:15
Use the time and fight your battle then. You got around 2 hours before Stuperman will be taking it :wink:
It's 0:23 now, not very likely I'll fight it now.
Will do tomorrow morning, about 8:00 my time, I don't know where TinCow's from, but I doubt he'll take the save sooner
FactionHeir
10-16-2007, 23:30
TC is GMT -5, so its around 18:30 at his place at the moment.
Stuperman
10-17-2007, 00:30
Taking the save now.
The Library is fully (seriously... nothing left out for once) updated. I have included a few extra photos of the current extent of the Reich so that non-players (StoneCold) can get a better feel for the situation. I would like to publicly thank Northnovas for doing all the mugshots. That alone saved me a couple hours of work. thankyouthankyouthankyou
I will fight my battle sometime tonight. At the same time I will do the editing required to allow Factionheir to fight his battle.
gibsonsg91921
10-17-2007, 01:15
thanks TC and NN!
Stuperman
10-17-2007, 02:34
http://img01.picoodle.com/img/img01/6/10/16/t_submitm_f8c0728.jpg (http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?img=/6/10/16/f_submitm_f8c0728.jpg&srv=img01)
http://img32.picoodle.com/img/img32/6/10/16/t_submit2m_91da186.jpg (http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?img=/6/10/16/f_submit2m_91da186.jpg&srv=img32)
http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/kotr1320-5.zip
woot! sorry for the wait
Ok, I lied. I'm not fighting mine tonight. That said, I did the editing necessary for Factionheir to fight his. Thus, the remaining battles are:
Duke Ansehelm:
You are attacking the Russian force that is besieging Thorn.
Hans
You are riding to the aid of King Davy of England, who is been chased and harried by rebellious Swabians concerned with nothing more than looting a rich corpse.
For all players, make sure you post when you are taking the save and then post the new save in this thread. Also, please PM me with the battle results. (kills, losses, etc.) Please include information on the number of prisoners caught and whether they were released, ransomed (successfully or not), or executed. Also, if you sacked or exterminated a city, tell me how many florins you received and how many people died.
http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/kotr1320-6.zip
Fought and won:
http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/kotr1320-7.rar
https://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d121/the_Stig_/Forumite%20Battle%20Result/0169.jpg
https://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d121/the_Stig_/Forumite%20Battle%20Result/0170.jpg
All prisoners have been executed, going to send you an after battle order
StoneCold
10-17-2007, 12:29
Thanks TC and NN, now I can follow the development better. :)
FactionHeir
10-17-2007, 13:22
Battle fought and won:
Save: http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/kotr1320-8.zip
Are we in wait mode? I finally have a bit of time to write for the stories thread but I have no idea where Fritz is or what he's doing at the moment.
And in case this post could be construed as complaining about slow place, please don't take it that way TC and/or econ! I know you've got plenty to do, and I'm not worried if it's taking a while to figure everything out. I'm just wondering if I've missed updates somewhere on current status.
FactionHeir
10-17-2007, 21:31
Wait mode I think. TC needs to fight his battle still and then execute everyone's movements and roll too many dice.
I will fight my battle asap when I get home, then do the necessary editing to the game. I have already done over half the write-up/descriptions for Turn 2, so I expect Turn 2 to begin late this evening EST.
Cecil XIX
10-18-2007, 00:57
Would that be before or after 10 PM?
I'm working on it as we speak. I will not go to sleep before it is done, but I'm still a ways away from finishing. Probably at least an hour.
gibsonsg91921
10-18-2007, 02:23
thanks TC and econ, your hard work makes this game amazing.
This stuff continues to take far longer than I anticipated. I have posted the 1322 report, but it is currently missing most of the Units Available and I have not written a single "Choices" for anyone. I will continue working on those for the rest of the night, but I figured I would put the rest up since it was done.
[edit] I have finished everything except the Choices. Those will have to be done tomorrow. Mea culpa. If you do not need me to write Choices for you, please let me know as it will save me time. Also, please double check my descriptions and wealth calculations. I wrote a large part of this before clicking end turn and some things happened which I did not anticipate, forcing me to change the descriptions and wealth calculations. I think I made all the necessary changes, but given my record from last turn, a double check is wise.
RoadKill
10-18-2007, 03:48
Econ, I think you have to permantly take over my battles with Lorenz, my MTW 2 disc is ofiially screwed up, nothing I can do about it. So now I will only be doing the IC stuff for Lorenz Zirn, very sorry. :shame:
BTW: Check out my story called MANHUNT in the Meadhall, really cool, give a little critique about it as well, or just a comment, thanks. Writing that damn thing is the only thing I can do to make up for MTW 2. (Yes I am advertising while I'm at it)
TinCow: I think you forgot to create the 3 spear militia units in Antioch that we bought. We already had 3 at the beginning of 1320, so there should now be 6.
Econ, I think you have to permantly take over my battles with Lorenz, my MTW 2 disc is ofiially screwed up, nothing I can do about it.
No problem - you'd best forward any PMs that TinCow sends you concerning your choices so I can review the save and provide my opinion on what you should do. As you don't have access to the save, it may be hard for you to make an informed decision otherwise.
TinCow: I think you forgot to create the 3 spear militia units in Antioch that we bought. We already had 3 at the beginning of 1320, so there should now be 6.
Thanks. You had already added in the various Crusaders, so it confused me a bit. I saw 3 fresh, untouched spear militia and assumed you had done the same. I will add in the men.
I have fixed some errors in Outremer. I would also urge the Franconians to double check their numbers. Both of those areas were the ones that had the most changes from AI moves.
TinCow's had some real life stuff come up today, so I am going to fill in the options for this turn. I'll post again here when they are done. Please PM your choices to both him and me. I won't give choices for Outremer, as I think we have that sorted.
Privateerkev: you can fight your battles anytime you like with save TinCow uploaded.
OverKnight
10-18-2007, 15:48
If there are no objections, once PK is set, I'll have a go at my sally.
If there are no objections, once PK is set, I'll have a go at my sally.
Yes, that would be fine.
Stuperman
10-18-2007, 16:27
Damn! that's a big nasty stack on Cosica.....attack or wait for the seige, I'll need to think about that. My lack of Cav might be a problem.
OverKnight
10-18-2007, 16:38
Since PK's out for the moment, mind if I take the save now?
I'll be quick.
Since PK's out for the moment, mind if I take the save now?
I'll be quick.
Sorry for the delay - yes, of course, go ahead.
OK, I've put options in to the Cataclysm thread.
As before, feel free to give other orders that are feasible in game. Or even give suggestions for things that are not strictly speaking feasible (teleports, spawning units etc). However, if you have already benefited from free units etc, you may be unlikely to be so favorably treated again.
I am not sure who will implement your orders - TinCow or I - so please PM both of us with your instructions. Don't forget to specify any recruitment you want to do.
OverKnight
10-18-2007, 18:35
Thought you might say that. I already fought the battles, let me upload the save.
The Kaiser's army now has a unit of cannons, enjoy, they're quite useful. :evilgrin:
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