Chinon Parchment absolves the Knights Templar

[Kraggenmor]

In a cold case file dating back 700 years, a parchment recently found to have been 'mis-filed' absolves the Knights Templars of heresy (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/10/05/wvatican105.xml).

[I of the Storm]

Interesting, although it won't change much, even retrospectively. It makes the actions of the pope even worse, since he knew and had an inquisitorial expertise that they weren't heretics.

[Alex D]

This is very interesting. Pondering this it makes me wonder how many other 'misfiled' documents the Vatican has. Not only the Vatican, but archeological societies, universities, study groups...it makes me wonder more than anything just how truely 'representative' the history we learn really is. As an example, one might extrapolate that if a document was found, and it was verifiably bona fide, lets say concerning Jesus, or Muhammad, or Buddha and said document in some way disproved or altered our perception of these individuals, arguably this would be earth shaking for billions of people of these faiths.
Also I'm curious(no conspiracy theory here) why at this point in time was this document found? Seems very coincidental to the controversy re: the Davinci Code etc. Or is there something else in the Catholic/Christian world going on that I'm not aware of, but the Papacy/Vatican is?
Just some random, and not too coherent thoughts...
Cheers
Alex

[Mithrandir]

Moved to Monastery.

[Gurkhal]

This is very interesting. Pondering this it makes me wonder how many other 'misfiled' documents the Vatican has. Not only the Vatican, but archeological societies, universities, study groups...it makes me wonder more than anything just how truely 'representative' the history we learn really is. As an example, one might extrapolate that if a document was found, and it was verifiably bona fide, lets say concerning Jesus, or Muhammad, or Buddha and said document in some way disproved or altered our perception of these individuals, arguably this would be earth shaking for billions of people of these faiths.

While its certainly possible for individual documents to have been misplaced, I belive this would concern with uncomfertible details, rather than something which would actually change history to some large degree. Also I don't think that the images of such iconic figures as Jesus, Muhammad or Buddha would be easily altered by one text or another found again. They're to well rooted in many peoples' view of the world and in theology to be so easily influenced by the outside.


Also I'm curious(no conspiracy theory here) why at this point in time was this document found? Seems very coincidental to the controversy re: the Davinci Code etc. Or is there something else in the Catholic/Christian world going on that I'm not aware of, but the Papacy/Vatican is?

I agree that it's probably lots of stuff, but I doubt it to be anything world-shattering which have been hidden away in some archives. Seems almost a bit to novel-like to me.

[AntiochusIII]

Eh, I thought it was common knowledge that the Templars were set up because Philip IV was feeling annoyed.

You know, stuff like his being broke and the Templars being filthy rich; that he was centralizing and the Templars were owning lands in France and not at all inclined to "return" them to the French King, etc.

The whole "they're satanists" I never took seriously really. Although this document does perhaps add to the knowledge of the "case" and the players in it. Sounds like the Pope was trying to save the Templars. Natural, considering that Philip's iron grip on Rome's policy wasn't likely to be very comforting.

[CountArach]

I'm glad that the Vatican is finally beginning to face up to its murky past.

[Brenus]

That could be a news, excepted it is not.
The Templar Knights were not burn because heresy but because they were relapsed... Minor mistake but make me doubt about the seriousness of the study…:inquisitive:
There is nothing mysterious about a “new” document. It was available and known for a long time. The Pope never admitted the fact that the Templar knights were guilty of Heresy (they depended directly from the Pope…).

"After the good opinion of the XII century provided by the Crusades and the conquering Christianity, most of the European Monarchies (starting to establish themselves as powers) started to doubt of the Templar Knights legitimacy: they lost the Holly Land, their inactivity, their arrogance, their status as untouchable, cast discredit upon them. The populace’s disbelief was fuelled by so much visible luxury and money in which some of them are living: where is the faith, the poorness and humility from the origin?" Translated from a French Site...

The Friday the 13Th of October 1307, Guillaume de Nogaret organised the first massive arrest in French history… However the Pope Clement V saw the arrest of 140 knights as an offence to his power, as it was… More, the prisoners started to retract when interrogated by the Cardinals. The Pope interrupted the Inquisition (something no Pope will do for other heresies)…

So no secret document, nothing new…:laugh4:
The Da Vinci Code syndrome hit again… :beam:

[The Wizard]

What I find surprising is how the document reportedly underwrites the oft-mentioned homosexual (i.e. sodomite according to the Church) initiation rites of the Templars. I always thought that was nothing but real old propaganda.

[Prussian1]

http://asv.vatican.va/en/doc/1308.htm

Some of the other stuff in here is pretty interesting, as well.

Particularly funny is The Great Khan's Letter tot he Pope. I didn't realize that it took that many Mongolian Characters to spell "Get Bent" :beam: :beam:

[Mouzafphaerre]

http://asv.vatican.va/en/doc/1308.htm

Some of the other stuff in here is pretty interesting, as well.

Particularly funny is The Great Khan's Letter tot he Pope. I didn't realize that it took that many Mongolian Characters to spell "Get Bent" :beam: :beam:
.
It's in Arabic script, the text as well as the seal. I can't say for certain but the language is probably also Arabic. (Just emailing the letter to a friend masterfully skilled in deciphering palaeography. He might provide us with a transliteration, even a translation. ~:))
.

[Prussian1]

.
It's in Arabic script, the text as well as the seal. I can't say for certain but the language is probably also Arabic. (Just emailing the letter to a friend masterfully skilled in deciphering palaeography. He might provide us with a transliteration, even a translation. ~:))
.

Shows how clueless I am . . . sorry :embarassed:

Anyway, I'd love to see the follow-up to what the translation says.

Also, I'd be curious as to why a Mongolian Khan would use Arabic script (an potentially the Arabic language) in his correspondence. Would it be same to assume that this was the Eastern equivalent of Latin (that is, speakers of different languages would have Latin in common for written correspondence)?

[Mouzafphaerre]

.
Yes, Arabic was the lingua franca of the eastern world and continued to be well until mid-XIXth C.), whose universal usage extended even to China, where one of the oldest Muslim communities have been living. It was also well recognized in many European courts, especially the Mediterranean based ones, due to close interaction.

It was most probably why the Mongol Khan wished his letter to be written in Arabic. I don't think it's Mongolian written in Arabic script because Mongol language already had an adapted Sogdian alphabet.

:stupido:

My email rests responseless. I'll need to have my friend read the letter 'manually'. :whip:
.

[Prussian1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongolian_alphabet

I have to say, to a knuckle-dragger like me, this looks very similar to Arabic.

Anyway, I can't wait to actually see what the Khan wrote - whatever the language.

[Mouzafphaerre]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongolian_alphabet

I have to say, to a knuckle-dragger like me, this looks very similar to Arabic.

Anyway, I can't wait to actually see what the Khan wrote - whatever the language.
.
It's a spin-off of the Uighur script, which in turn descends from the semitic Sogdian alphabet that shares its roots with the Arabic one.

I'm almost certain the letter is in Arabic script though. :stupido:
.

[Mouzafphaerre]

.
How inattentive we all are! :wall:

The letter is written in Persian, the preamble in Turkish and the date in Arabic.
From the page on which the letter is displayed! :laugh4: Proves that it's 100% in Arabic script. :yes:
.

[Prussian1]

Well, lucky for us that I have a friend who speaks Persian :2thumbsup:

Let me see what I can do.

[The Wizard]

Obviously the Pope was more likely to have translators for Arabic messages, what with Muslim powers so nearby and so threatening to what remained of the Crusader states, than he was to have a translator for the Mongol language. The Mongols were a practical people ~;)

[Mouzafphaerre]

.
I was together with that friend of mine this evening. He told me that he had showed the letter to yet another friend, a scholar, and they both immediately identified the Persian. :yes:

What I've learned newly is that Mongol language, after conversion to Islam under the dominion of later Altun Orda and Il-Khans, was written in Arabic alphabet as well.
.

[The Wizard]

Yeah, but that was just the Il-Khanate. Being such a tiny minority the Mongols in that region had good reason to use that alphabet. As far as I know, most major state documents printed (yes, printed, using the Chines technique) during the empire's heyday were done in Old Mongolian.

[Mouzafphaerre]

.
At the heart of the empire in northern central Asia, the old animist ways and the alphabet apparently remained in use. The alphabet has survived to-day, although officially replaced by Cyrillic since the period Mongolia became practically a USSR vassal.
.

[The Wizard]

It's still used in Inner Mongolia, I hear, even though the policies of the PRC have made that a majority-Chinese region.