View Full Version : Muslims Rally Worldwide to Show Their Hatred of Jews and Americans
PanzerJaeger
10-05-2007, 19:40
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,299603,00.html
TEHRAN, Iran — Millions of Iranians attended nationwide rallies Friday in support of the Palestinians, while the country's hard-line President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said Israel's continued existence was an "insult to human dignity."
"The creation, continued existence and unlimited (Western) support for this regime is an insult to human dignity," Ahmadinejad said. "The occupation of Palestine is not limited to one land. The Zionist issue is now a global issue."
Ahmadinejad's remarks came as millions of Iranians held rallies across Iran to protest Israel's continued hold on Jerusalem, the city where Muslims believe Islam's Prophet Muhammad began his journey to heaven.
The demonstrations for "Al-Quds Day" — Al-Quds is the Arabic name for Jerusalem — also spilled over into anti-American protests because of U.S. support for Israel.
In the capital Tehran, hundreds of thousands of people poured into the streets as they chanted "Death to America" and "Death to Israel." Some protesters also burned American and Israeli flags.
State television reported similar large rallies in all other provincial capitals and smaller towns across Iran.
Iran does not recognize Israel and regards Palestine as comprising the Jewish state as well as the West Bank and Gaza.
Ahmadinejad is known for his Israel-lashing comments who has called for Israel to be "wiped off the map." He has also called the Nazi Holocaust a "myth" used as a pretext for carving out a Jewish state in the heart of the Muslim world after the World War II.
The Iranian president once again said Palestinians should not pay any price because Europeans committed crimes against Jews in World War II. He said they could give a part of their own land in Europe or Alaska so that the Jews can establish their country.
"I ask European governments supporting Zionists and the American people that will you allow occupation of part of your land under a pretext and then talk about a two-state solution?," Ahmadinejad said after the rallies.
Ahmadinejad said a "free referendum" was the solution to the Palestinian issue, saying Jews, Muslims and Christians as well as five million Palestinian refugees should take part in a vote to determine their own fate.
Ayatollah Mahould Hashemi Shahroudi, Iran's judiciary chief, said Friday's rallies was "a good start for the destruction of the Zionist regime."
Parliamentary speaker Gholam Ali Haddad Adel said the Israeli occupation of Palestinian lands was a "blatant oppression" and warned that the relationship between the Islamic world and the West won't improve as long as Palestinians are not allowed to determine their fate in a referendum.
Since the Islamic revolution in 1979, Iran has observed the last Friday of the Islamic holy month of Ramadan as "Al-Quds Day," as a way of expressing support to the Palestinians and emphasizing the importance of Jerusalem to Muslims.
Jerusalem is the third holiest city in Islam after the Saudi Arabian cities of Mecca and Medina.
In the Syrian capital of Damascus, more than 3,000 people carrying flags of the Palestinians, Syria and Lebanon's militant Hezbollah group marched Friday through the city's Yarmouk refugee camp to mark the day.
"Palestine is ours, from the sea to the river," read a banner referring to the Jordan river and the Mediterranean where British-mandate Palestinian's border used to be before Israel's creation in 1948. "Defending Palestine is a national and religious duty," read another.
The demonstration was organized by the Iranian embassy in Damascus and the Damascus-based radical Palestinian groups to protest Israel's capture of East Jerusalem during the 1967 Mideast war.
Maher Taher, the representative of the radical Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine in Damascus, said: "Jerusalem Day is to reassert our solidarity with the Palestinian people."
http://www.foxnews.com/photoessay/photoessay_2433_images/1005071156_M_100507_AlQuds01.jpg
Oct. 5: Pakistanis stage a demonstration for "Al-Quds Day" (Jerusalem Day), in Karachi, Pakistan.
http://www.foxnews.com/photoessay/photoessay_2433_images/1005071318_M_100507_AlQuds09.jpg
Oct. 5: Indonesian Muslims march during an anti-Israel protest in Surabaya, East Java, Indonesia.
Such a wonderful culture... :yes:
Even better is the amount of support this mindset gets in the West. :help:
ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
10-05-2007, 19:46
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,299603,00.html
TEHRAN, Iran — Millions of Iranians attended nationwide rallies Friday in support of the Palestinians, while the country's hard-line President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said Israel's continued existence was an "insult to human dignity."
"The creation, continued existence and unlimited (Western) support for this regime is an insult to human dignity," Ahmadinejad said. "The occupation of Palestine is not limited to one land. The Zionist issue is now a global issue."
Ahmadinejad's remarks came as millions of Iranians held rallies across Iran to protest Israel's continued hold on Jerusalem, the city where Muslims believe Islam's Prophet Muhammad began his journey to heaven.
The demonstrations for "Al-Quds Day" — Al-Quds is the Arabic name for Jerusalem — also spilled over into anti-American protests because of U.S. support for Israel.
In the capital Tehran, hundreds of thousands of people poured into the streets as they chanted "Death to America" and "Death to Israel." Some protesters also burned American and Israeli flags.
State television reported similar large rallies in all other provincial capitals and smaller towns across Iran.
Iran does not recognize Israel and regards Palestine as comprising the Jewish state as well as the West Bank and Gaza.
Ahmadinejad is known for his Israel-lashing comments who has called for Israel to be "wiped off the map." He has also called the Nazi Holocaust a "myth" used as a pretext for carving out a Jewish state in the heart of the Muslim world after the World War II.
The Iranian president once again said Palestinians should not pay any price because Europeans committed crimes against Jews in World War II. He said they could give a part of their own land in Europe or Alaska so that the Jews can establish their country.
"I ask European governments supporting Zionists and the American people that will you allow occupation of part of your land under a pretext and then talk about a two-state solution?," Ahmadinejad said after the rallies.
Ahmadinejad said a "free referendum" was the solution to the Palestinian issue, saying Jews, Muslims and Christians as well as five million Palestinian refugees should take part in a vote to determine their own fate.
Ayatollah Mahould Hashemi Shahroudi, Iran's judiciary chief, said Friday's rallies was "a good start for the destruction of the Zionist regime."
Parliamentary speaker Gholam Ali Haddad Adel said the Israeli occupation of Palestinian lands was a "blatant oppression" and warned that the relationship between the Islamic world and the West won't improve as long as Palestinians are not allowed to determine their fate in a referendum.
Since the Islamic revolution in 1979, Iran has observed the last Friday of the Islamic holy month of Ramadan as "Al-Quds Day," as a way of expressing support to the Palestinians and emphasizing the importance of Jerusalem to Muslims.
Jerusalem is the third holiest city in Islam after the Saudi Arabian cities of Mecca and Medina.
In the Syrian capital of Damascus, more than 3,000 people carrying flags of the Palestinians, Syria and Lebanon's militant Hezbollah group marched Friday through the city's Yarmouk refugee camp to mark the day.
"Palestine is ours, from the sea to the river," read a banner referring to the Jordan river and the Mediterranean where British-mandate Palestinian's border used to be before Israel's creation in 1948. "Defending Palestine is a national and religious duty," read another.
The demonstration was organized by the Iranian embassy in Damascus and the Damascus-based radical Palestinian groups to protest Israel's capture of East Jerusalem during the 1967 Mideast war.
Maher Taher, the representative of the radical Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine in Damascus, said: "Jerusalem Day is to reassert our solidarity with the Palestinian people."
http://www.foxnews.com/photoessay/photoessay_2433_images/1005071156_M_100507_AlQuds01.jpg
Oct. 5: Pakistanis stage a demonstration for "Al-Quds Day" (Jerusalem Day), in Karachi, Pakistan.
http://www.foxnews.com/photoessay/photoessay_2433_images/1005071318_M_100507_AlQuds09.jpg
Oct. 5: Indonesian Muslims march during an anti-Israel protest in Surabaya, East Java, Indonesia.
Such a wonderful culture... :yes:
Even better is the amount of support this mindset gets in the West. :help:
I always hear Muslims are so peacefull..... Mabye a Few are, but this leave me with the conclusion that they are warlike culture, period.
HoreTore
10-05-2007, 19:49
I always hear Muslims are so peacefull..... Mabye a Few are, but this leave me with the conclusion that they are warlike culture, period.
So, you think it's fine to base your opinion of 1 billion people based on a few thousand?
And this is demonstrating... Not war.
Demonstrating is usually called a democratic thing, you know...
So that's what the fuss is about. Due to my incomprehension of Farsi/Arabic, I mistakenly assumed they were celebrating the date of my birth. Fires, chanting and kids waving guns around, what else was I supposed to think? Oh well.
Mikeus Caesar
10-05-2007, 20:09
Yes, of course, the holocaust was all a hoax. 6 million Jews didn't die in the holocaust.
IN THE HOLOCAUST, SIX MILLION JEWS DIED WON FABULOUS PRIZES!
rotorgun
10-05-2007, 20:10
It's always sad to me when I see another generation of children, be they from any culture, being trained and indoctrinated to participate in the hatreds and bigotry of their parents. This is why there will never be a chance for real peace.
"......from whence comes these wars and fightings amonst you? Ye seek and desire to have, Ye lust that Ye may consume it upon your lusts, Ye ask and have not. Why? Because when thou ask Ye ask amiss." - Book of James, Holy Bible
Non-violence is the way to real peace.
Geoffrey S
10-05-2007, 20:14
Wow, thank God nobody has been stupid enough to bomb fellow Muslim countries while supporting rather nasty repressive regimes to demonstrate that their fears of being viewed as pawns in to be subdued to Western interests are essentially correct and reinforce this siege mentality... oh dear...
Blodrast
10-05-2007, 20:19
So that's what the fuss is about. Due to my incomprehension of Farsi/Arabic, I mistakenly assumed they were celebrating the date of my birth. Fires, chanting and kids waving guns around, what else was I supposed to think? Oh well.
Happy Birthday, drone, how does it feel to have so many people celebrating your birthday ? ~D And, man, they have guns and posters and stuff, I bet they'll fire a few salvos in your health, it's really cool! I envy you. :beam:
rotorgun
10-05-2007, 20:21
Wow, thank God nobody has been stupid enough to bomb fellow Muslim countries while supporting rather nasty repressive regimes to demonstrate that their fears of being viewed as pawns in to be subdued to Western interests are essentially correct and reinforce this siege mentality... oh dear...
Indeed. There is plenty of blame to go around with all the parties involved. But who started this whole mess to begin with? (Abraham banishing Ishmael and Hagar out into the desert aside)
Happy Birthday, drone, how does it feel to have so many people celebrating your birthday ? ~D And, man, they have guns and posters and stuff, I bet they'll fire a few salvos in your health, it's really cool! I envy you. :beam:
http://www.foxnews.com/photoessay/photoessay_2433_images/1005071156_M_100507_AlQuds01.jpg
I'm hoping the chick that jumps out of this cake is hawt! ~D
Geoffrey S
10-05-2007, 20:42
Indeed. There is plenty of blame to go around with all the parties involved. But who started this whole mess to begin with? (Abraham banishing Ishmael and Hagar out into the desert aside)
No-one and everyone did. That's the problem.
rotorgun
10-05-2007, 20:51
No-one and everyone did. That's the problem.
The only way that everyone can begin to solve it is for everyone to put down their guns, bombs, rockets, knives, etc., etc., and talk to one another instead. How is little Achmed in the front row ever going to learn that from the adults teaching him that hate is the way? (vis a vis all the other countries as well)
Tribesman
10-05-2007, 20:55
Don't ya just love it , a yearly protest about an illegal occupation that is violation of laws that Isreal agreed to and that most of the world repeatedly condemns is now apperantly a hatred of Jews thing , nice going Panzer , did you check dinnerjackets comments about that murderous regime from Germany that you are so fond of ?:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
I like the article .
Ahmadinejad is known for his Israel-lashing comments who has called for Israel to be "wiped off the map." He has also called the Nazi Holocaust a "myth" used as a pretext for carving out a Jewish state in the heart of the Muslim world after the World War II......nice stuff , I really like the little "" things :yes: they are normaly used to mean something is an actual quote . I wonder what the actual quotes were that Fox has implied were "quotes":laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
Demonstrating is usually called a democratic thing, you know...
Don't be silly , or the next thing you are going to say is that calling for a referendum would be somehow democratic :2thumbsup:
Blodrast
10-05-2007, 20:58
http://www.foxnews.com/photoessay/photoessay_2433_images/1005071156_M_100507_AlQuds01.jpg
I'm hoping the chick that jumps out of this cake is hawt! ~D
You won't be able to tell because of the burqa, though, mate. Just enjoy the fireworks, 'kay ?
Geoffrey S
10-05-2007, 21:16
The only way that everyone can begin to solve it is for everyone to put down their guns, bombs, rockets, knives, etc., etc., and talk to one another instead. How is little Achmed in the front row ever going to learn that from the adults teaching him that hate is the way? (vis a vis all the other countries as well)
In the end, yes, that's the ideal. But as long as all possible sides keep looking for justification (and in their mind, finding it) in history for actions in the present that's a ways off. They're not working on the basis of the world now, but on the basis of what they think the world should have been.
Evil_Maniac From Mars
10-05-2007, 21:22
So, you think it's fine to base your opinion of 1 billion people based on a few thousand?
And this is demonstrating... Not war.
Demonstrating is usually called a democratic thing, you know...
It's also from Fox News. If somebody gives me a link that doesn't tend to embellish or slant the news as badly, I'll believe more of it.
The Wizard
10-05-2007, 21:24
And this is demonstrating... Not war.
Demonstrating is usually called a democratic thing, you know...Notice there are children walking around with live guns.
I mean seriously, regardless of the message sent here (which I oppose), using your own children as your political pawn in power games of which demonstrations are inevitably a part of is disgusting. Simply and downright disgusting.
Kralizec
10-05-2007, 21:27
Congrats, Drone :cheers:
My birthday was about a week ago, at the same time that the Burmese military began beating down the protests. Must be bad karma :no:
The Wizard
10-05-2007, 21:30
I was born two hundred years to the day after Louis XVI called the Estates General and started France on the path towards Revolution.
Beat that ~;p
Geoffrey S
10-05-2007, 22:03
It's also from Fox News. If somebody gives me a link that doesn't tend to embellish or slant the news as badly, I'll believe more of it.
Well, at least it slants the other way... (http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/877E8E21-01A0-4498-B67F-7FD645096470.htm) But it's got similar numbers, which I guess is what you're looking for.
Still, I struggle to see how a relatively small group of extremists can be considered representative of Muslims in general, any more so than some more rabid anti-war demonstrators can be considered representative of the views of most of the population in the West.
The Wizard
10-05-2007, 22:16
The fact that they're talking about destroying a sovereign country (and, by extension, its people, though I doubt many make the distinction) during a time when no Muslim should indulge himself in violence is telling for the kind of people taking part, I'd say.
Boyar Son
10-05-2007, 22:16
yeah well....here comes another generation of holy extremists....:tnt:
Tribesman
10-05-2007, 22:17
Still, I struggle to see how a relatively small group of extremists can be considered representative of Muslims in general
If you really struggle you can manage to look from Panzers or Warmans perspective .
Mabye a Few are, but this leave me with the conclusion that they are warlike culture, period.
OK it might be a hell of a struggle to get to that perspective , but give it a go anyway Geoffrey:2thumbsup:
The fact that they're talking about destroying a sovereign country (and, by extension, its people, though I doubt many make the distinction)
If the Scots wanted the United Kingdom consigned to the waste bin of history would that mean by extension they want to kill all its people ?
Don Corleone
10-05-2007, 22:23
~:rolleyes: I love this. In one thread, people are talking about how responsible, taxpaying citizens shouldn't be allowed to own guns in their own homes to defend themselves. In other, we're heaping praise on parents arming their children with rifles and handguns and having them march around the streets, calling for the death of millions of people as 'noble political protest'. Anybody care for another nice helping of hypocricy, hmm?
Tribesman
10-05-2007, 22:36
In other, we're heaping praise on parents arming their children with rifles and handguns and having them march around the streets, calling for the death of millions of people as 'noble political protest'.
Really Don .....Where ?
You really are slacking lately:thumbsdown:
Spetulhu
10-05-2007, 22:37
Next time you open CNN (or whatever your favorite news channel is) try writing "good guys" and "bad guys" on a paper. Then put a mark under the relevant heading when you see a muslim. How much are you willing to bet that you'll see very few of them that appear rational? Problem is, demonstrations and violence are news. Peaceful living isn't.
The state-controlled media in the muslim countries certainly don't show them any Jews or Americans being nice to people either. :help:
Don Corleone
10-05-2007, 22:48
Hmm, where did I get that idea.... :stupido2:
Maybe it was this...
Demonstrating is usually called a democratic thing, you know...
Or this....
Don't be silly , or the next thing you are going to say is that calling for a referendum would be somehow democratic
As for your opinion of my views, Tribesman? Can't be bothered to care. Have a donut. ~:cheers:
PanzerJaeger
10-05-2007, 23:07
Don't ya just love it , a yearly protest about an illegal occupation that is violation of laws that Isreal agreed to and that most of the world repeatedly condemns is now apperantly a hatred of Jews thing , nice going Panzer , did you check dinnerjackets comments about that murderous regime from Germany that you are so fond of ?:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
:laugh4:
Nope, no Jew hating going on here... how much farther can you put your head in the sand?
It truly is pathetic that you are so entrenched in your Israel=Evil attitudes that you cannot see how far from a simple protest this is.
Indoctrinating children into a belief system that relies on hatred and the destruction of another people is certainly not something I would think you support...
Anyone with any sense, left - right - or center, can see that this is not a good thing.
Defaulting to your preconceived good/bad notions without actually thinking is the definition of mental slacking... no? :shame:
Strike For The South
10-05-2007, 23:12
A populist bringing out his biggest issue! Im supposed to be surprised?
Goofball
10-05-2007, 23:20
So, you think it's fine to base your opinion of 1 billion people based on a few thousand?
Actually, a few thousand is a statistically significant sample.
And this is demonstrating... Not war.
Demonstrating is usually called a democratic thing, you know...
Having said that, demonstrations in democratic countries don't as a rule involve children carrying guns and chanting hate slogans.
I'm just sayin'...
Samurai Waki
10-05-2007, 23:24
Can't say I'm vastly impressed. This sort of stuff happens all the time, Flag burning, People shouting ALALALALAAAAH! while shooting their AKs in the air. I'm supposed to be terrified or impressed? Nah. Same boring stuff. And I know Immadinnerjacket realizes that Israel will never be wiped off the map, without of course Iran being wiped off the map, he just says it, so that the Drones under his regime stop whining about how aweful their lives are under the Theocracy. And I also know for a fact, that while those Children carrying around guns is Scary, somehow I'm vastly more scared of an adult driving around a tank or flying an F-16.
Boyar Son
10-05-2007, 23:27
well you know some of these fools would shoot us if they see us. Or at least complain alot.
Samurai Waki
10-05-2007, 23:28
Well, I have the feeling some of us would shoot them if they saw them... its not like it doesn't happen.
Boyar Son
10-05-2007, 23:32
ahmadinejad came.... so, no it doesnt.~D :feedback:
Samurai Waki
10-05-2007, 23:39
How many reports are there of Iranians killing American Civilians lately? Unless you know something nobody else knows about?
Boyar Son
10-05-2007, 23:41
How many reports are there of Iranians killing American Civilians lately? Unless you know something nobody else knows about?
Actually I do know of hostage taking of Americans in the 70's by the Iranians...
ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
10-05-2007, 23:51
So, you think it's fine to base your opinion of 1 billion people based on a few thousand?
And this is demonstrating... Not war.
Demonstrating is usually called a democratic thing, you know...
:inquisitive: :inquisitive:
Demostrating with Guns? Yup Hore, that's a REAL democractic thing to do. Go out in streets shooting GUns in the Air with down with USA/Isreial signs, yup....
Samurai Waki
10-06-2007, 00:00
Actually I do know of hostage taking of Americans in the 70's by the Iranians...
This was 30 years ago. And many of them escaped with their lives (some didn't) but that was at the height of them deposing of the Shah, whom the Iranian's with some respect to their views, saw as an autocratic puppet of the USA. Obviously theres going to be some anger there. But I haven't heard of any Iranians killing Americans recently, I suppose there has been hostage taking on both sides, with the US holding "suspected" Iranian Arms dealers in Iraq, and Iranians boarding and taking hostage the crew of a British Vessel operating off the Coast of Hormuz in Iranian Water. As far as I know, those British Navy Men returned home safe, without a bruise. The USA won't budge on releasing these supposed "Arms Dealers" and we're not sure in what Physical or mental state they are now.
Tribesman
10-06-2007, 00:52
Hmm, where did I get that idea....
Maybe it was this...
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
Demonstrating is usually called a democratic thing, you know...
Or this....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
Don't be silly , or the next thing you are going to say is that calling for a referendum would be somehow democratic
Ah yes that is definately heaping praise on parents and kids with guns calling for the death of millions ...well done Don , it was so well hidden that it almost escaped my notice .
My my your imagination must be infectious ...I can see it too now:dizzy2:
Actually I do know of hostage taking of Americans in the 70's by the Iranians...
Would thatbe the one where some people in America that was funding some rather nasty death squads illegally took some money and transferred it to the revolutionary nutters in the form of arms and when it was stopped got the Israelis to ship the weapons instead ...or is it a different one form that era that you are thinking of ?
Indoctrinating children into a belief system that relies on hatred and the destruction of another people is certainly not something I would think you support...
What ? You mean like the extremist Zionists or that old European regime you are rather fond of ?
Defaulting to your preconceived good/bad notions without actually thinking is the definition of mental slacking... no?
Are you talking of yourself there Panzer ?
Boyar Son
10-06-2007, 00:55
What a colorful point of view tribes, especially since these people from the embassy are either diplomats, or assistants to them~D
:feedback:
Boyar Son
10-06-2007, 00:57
This was 30 years ago. And many of them escaped with their lives (some didn't)
some didnt?!?!?!
man, talk about rough...
Tribesman
10-06-2007, 01:10
some didnt?!?!?!
Which hostages didn't ???????
man, talk about rough...
talk about clueless :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
Boyar Son
10-06-2007, 01:13
Which hostages didn't ???????
talk about clueless :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
haha funny yeah...
I dont know which hostages didnt, responded from waki's post.
Clueless? not anymore
sigh :drama2:
Samurai Waki
10-06-2007, 01:48
some didnt?!?!?!
man, talk about rough...
Well technically none of the hostages died through the Iranian Crisis. The only deaths reported in the whole incident was eight US servicemen who died during the ill fated (and planned) Operation Eagle Talon. This actually squandered the Crisis and allowed it to continue on for even more time. Adding to the Ayatollah's Reputation with the Iranian Masses.
Gah!
We had that before, didn't we? :inquisitive:
Geoffrey S
10-06-2007, 05:49
The fact that they're talking about destroying a sovereign country (and, by extension, its people, though I doubt many make the distinction) during a time when no Muslim should indulge himself in violence is telling for the kind of people taking part, I'd say.
Exactly. As said, extremists perverting Islam who shouldn't really reflect on the majority of muslims. Hopefully one day the majority of Muslims will see these extremists for the damaging element they are and actually do something useful about their problem. Because I want to make that clear, it's the muslim's problem to solve if they want to have any hope of progress. They need to distance themselves from the extremists, and until that happens it's hard to take claims of wanting freedom or whatever seriously.
Devastatin Dave
10-06-2007, 06:12
extremists perverting Islam
Islam doesn't need extremists to pervert it. Anytime a religion that's founder banged a 9 year old doesn't need extremists to pervert it. Sure, many muslims are "peaceful" but they are not following the true teachings of the "Prophet". Why is it so hard for the Western mind to understand that true Islam is not just violent but its core and purpose is to "submit". The "peaceful" muslims would be beheaded by Muhammed or one of his assasins if they were still running around the desert robbing caravans. This is historical FACT. Do you people not understand why the believers must postrate 5 times a day towrds Mecca? Do you not understand why the believers must make atleast 1 Haji in their life? Do you not understand why the prophet had poets and musicians killed? How can these facts be ignored?:no:
Lord Winter
10-06-2007, 06:31
Look at the bible for that matter Dave, lots of people being burned, stuck down, killed ect.. for disobeying gods word. Thats not even counting all the slaves be obbedinet to your masters and saccerfice your life in my name. You do also now that Alah = the Christen god to right? There book at least provides protection to us people of the book unlike other crusaders of certain religons.
I'm not trying to attack christinity or paint Islam a shiining becon to the world but actually take it in contxt of everything else. Things in the real world arn't black and white you know.
Devastatin Dave
10-06-2007, 06:38
Look at the bible for that matter Dave, lots of people being burned, stuck down, killed ect.. for disobeying gods word. Thats not even counting all the slaves be obbedinet to your masters and saccerfice your life in my name. You do also now that Alah = the Christen god to right? There book at least provides protection to us people of the book unlike other crusaders of certain religons.
I'm not trying to attack christinity or paint Islam a shiining becon to the world but actually take it in contxt of everything else. Things in the real world arn't black and white you know.
But we're not talking about the Christian cult in this thread. I'm concerned about the current violent cult that is doing the majority of the devastation right now. The crusades sucked, but its a little bit old news. The islamic issue is NOW. EDIT
Geoffrey S
10-06-2007, 09:56
Islam doesn't need extremists to pervert it. Anytime a religion that's founder banged a 9 year old doesn't need extremists to pervert it. Sure, many muslims are "peaceful" but they are not following the true teachings of the "Prophet". Why is it so hard for the Western mind to understand that true Islam is not just violent but its core and purpose is to "submit". The "peaceful" muslims would be beheaded by Muhammed or one of his assasins if they were still running around the desert robbing caravans. This is historical FACT. Do you people not understand why the believers must postrate 5 times a day towrds Mecca? Do you not understand why the believers must make atleast 1 Haji in their life? Do you not understand why the prophet had poets and musicians killed? How can these facts be ignored?:no:
I'm not so keen on Islam myself. It needs its own Reformation to drag it from the thoughts of the Middle Ages to the present; thankfully, that seems to at least be in process, partially fueled by scholarly work from the West into the historical origins of the Islam, which is forcing at least some more progressive Muslim intellectuals (and some clerics) to take a long hard look at exactly what their religion means and what its historical origins are. Right now the Islam is dominated by clerics who take the Qu'ran and hadith literally, and extremists who lap it up: that's just as damaging as it would be to Christianity if one were to take the Bible literally in all things (and in fact, was), and just as impossible to do without extremely selective reading.
Christianity changed from being the religion of slaves to the religion of rulers, and from then on to its more current form. Islam has a different route, and it is changing from being the religion of conquerors; I'd prefer it to change in what it perceives to be a free world not exploiting the Middle East, rather than in a world it perceives to be oppressive both in the form of West as in that of its own rulers, a world to fight against.
Look at the bible for that matter Dave, lots of people being burned, stuck down, killed ect.. for disobeying gods word. Thats not even counting all the slaves be obbedinet to your masters and saccerfice your life in my name. You do also now that Alah = the Christen god to right? There book at least provides protection to us people of the book unlike other crusaders of certain religons.
I'm not trying to attack christinity or paint Islam a shiining becon to the world but actually take it in contxt of everything else. Things in the real world arn't black and white you know.
Violence in the bible is such a non-argument, bible is written in passed tense and the quran in imperative mood. Big difference.
Tribesman
10-06-2007, 11:55
How can these facts be ignored?
Because they are bollox Dave .:idea2:
If I may ask a politically incorrect question that bears directly upon the title of this thread - in the last two or three years, how many Muslim civilians have been killed by Israelis and Americans as opposed to American and Israeli civilians killed by Muslims?
The question has some pertinence.
Because they are bollox Dave .:idea2:
5 times praying (if you can), check
1 time hadji (if you can), check
robbing caravans, check
poets killed, check
musicians killed, check
Not that it means anything, but these last 3 are facts assuming that mohammed is a historical character and the first two are part of the muslim religion. Pavlov reaction?
If I may ask a politically incorrect question that bears directly upon the title of this thread - in the last two or three years, how many Muslim civilians have been killed by Israelis and Americans as opposed to American and Israeli civilians killed by Muslims?
The question has some pertinence.
Why not make that tried to kill, it's raining rockets on daily bases. They just aren't very good at it. About actual killings, let's start with Darfur.
Why not make that tried to kill, it's raining rockets on daily bases. They just aren't very good at it. About actual killings, let's start with Darfur.
I am, of course, delighted to entertain any topic you wish to discuss.
But I'm still curious if anyone knows the answer to my question.
Tribesman
10-06-2007, 12:29
Not that it means anything, but these last 3 are facts
Are they facts as Dave presented them ?
let's start with Darfur.
Is that the place where the breakaway "christian" faction that didn't like the peace deal that ended their little long running civil war in the south moved to to start a new civil war ? or is that a different Darfur ?::inquisitive: Would you like to choose a different conflict to try and make your point:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
I am, of course, delighted to entertain any topic you wish to discuss.
But I'm still curious if anyone knows the answer to my question.
Since the war is officially over US soldiers are civilians abroad ~;)
Back at ya, how many would they have killed if they could? They never miss a chance to fire a rocket and, well miss. Just because they can't doesn't mean they wouldn't, and these signs they are holding and the things they are chanting do come of as somewhat hostile.
Since the war is officially over US soldiers are civilians abroad ~;)
Back at ya, how many would they have killed if they could? They never miss a chance to fire a rocket and, well miss. Just because they can't doesn't mean they wouldn't, and these signs they are holding and the things they are chanting do come of as somewhat hostile.
If you either don't know the answer, which is fine, or are refusing to answer if you do, which is fine also, it would help the discussion if you said so.
Are they facts as Dave presented them ?
Well yes, what he wants to say with it I'll leave to him.
Is that the place where the breakaway "christian" faction that didn't like the peace deal that ended their little long running civil war in the south moved to to start a new civil war ? or is that a different Darfur ?::inquisitive: Would you like to choose a different conflict to try and make your point:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
You mean the Dinka? You mentioned that before that is new to me, forget what I was wrong. The way I heard it was a campaign in the west and later the south that was run by the islamist government in Khartoum with the help of (arab?) beards. Also read a rapport that the rebels aren't peaches that are all to willing to do the same thing (you meant that?), but who is in africa
If you either don't know the answer, which is fine, or are refusing to answer if you do, which is fine also, it would help the discussion if you said so.
Well it would greatly help the discussion in a Muslims Rally Worldwide to Show Their Hatred of Jews and Americans kinda way if you mentioned how many pakistani and indonesians civilians were killed by americans and jews in the last years. Or does all that so many types of islam don't count anymore and is it one thing after all?
Are they facts as Dave presented them ?
Well yes, what he wants to say with it I'll leave to him.
Is that the place where the breakaway "christian" faction that didn't like the peace deal that ended their little long running civil war in the south moved to to start a new civil war ? or is that a different Darfur ?::inquisitive: Would you like to choose a different conflict to try and make your point:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
You mean the Dinka? You mentioned that before that is new to me, forget what I was wrong. The way I heard it was a campaign in the west and later the south that was run by the islamist government in Khartoum with the help of (arab?) beards. Also read a rapport that the rebels aren't peaches that are all to willing to do the same thing (you meant that?), but who is in africa
Well it would greatly help the discussion in a Muslims Rally Worldwide to Show Their Hatred of Jews and Americans kinda way if you mentioned how many pakistani and indonesians civilians were killed by americans and jews in the last years.
So I have to partially answer my own question before I can ask the question in question? And if so, which part of the question in question should I answer prior to asking the question itself?
So I have to partially answer my own question before I can ask the question in question? And if so, which part of the question in question should I answer prior to asking the question itself?
Yeah something like that. You want to put things in perspective, there it is. They are rioting in Indonesia and Pakistan. How many of these pakistani's and indonesians got killed that they are so angry? Just riding your chain of thought.
Yeah something like that.
Yeah, kind of looked that way. But it was an enjoyable dance while is lasted, nes ce pas?
So, If I may repeat myself for the benefit of someone else who might know:
"In the last two or three years, how many Muslim civilians have been killed by Israelis and Americans as opposed to American and Israeli civilians killed by Muslims?"
Thanks.
Yeah, kind of looked that way. But it was an enjoyable dance while is lasted, nes ce pas?
So, If I may repeat myself for the benefit of someone else who might know:
"In the last two or three years, how many Muslim civilians have been killed by Israelis and Americans as opposed to American and Israeli civilians killed by Muslims?"
Thanks.
Just tried to show you that that question isn't relevant. Unless of course we are talking about islam as a single body after all and there is no such thing such as a pakistani muslim, or an indonesian muslim, just muslims. So, how many non-muslims got killed by muslims the last year. That would give ligitimacy to any action no?
Just tried to show you that that question isn't relevant.
It is to me. And since I'm the one asking it...
So, how many non-muslims got killed by muslims the last year. That would give ligitimacy to any action no?
You are, of course, allowed to ask any question you want. I, because of my good nature, would do you the courtesy of either answering it, saying I don't know what the answer is, or simply not responding with any post at all. Or, if I had an objection with the phrasing of the question I would mention it once. Perhaps even twice. But to go on and on and on...
No, I would not do that.
The question, sir, stands.
So confusing, so how many muslim civilians got killed by americans and israeli's making the pakistani and indonesian citizens so angry, or are it the pakistani and indonesian muslims that are angry because of the iraqi and palestinians civilians that got killed. So what reason do the pakistani's and indonesians hav to hate americans and jews, what did they ever do to them. You seem to think they have good reason to be angry, why?
Tribesman
10-06-2007, 13:42
Well yes, what he wants to say with it I'll leave to him.
Are they really ?
You mean the Dinka? You mentioned that before that is new to me, forget what I was wrong. The way I heard it was a campaign in the west and later the south that was run by the islamist government in Khartoum with the help of (arab?) beards. Also read a rapport that the rebels aren't peaches that are all to willing to do the same thing (you meant that?)
OK you got that backwards as well , isn't it funny that you mention a topic as an example to use but then go on to show that you don't know anything about it .:oops:
but who is in africa
errrrr.....africans mainly :idea2:
OK you got that backwards as well , isn't it funny that you mention a topic as an example to use but then go on to show that you don't know anything about it .:oops:
Somewhat unfortunate ~;) Got a link by any chance?
Innocentius
10-06-2007, 14:46
Very interesting and all, but where is Islamic Rage Boy? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shakeel_Bhat)
https://img214.imageshack.us/img214/7103/070625fwprotesterexcs7.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
Don't you ever get tired of pointing out to the rest of us just how evil those naughty Muslims are?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamophobia
Devastatin Dave
10-06-2007, 14:57
I love Islamic Rage Boy!!!! Check out the nose on your face website. Cracks me up everytime...
Tribesman
10-06-2007, 15:39
Nice one innocentious :2thumbsup: .
How many posts in this topic (or any of the multitude of its teh Muslims topics) are textbook definitions of that bigotry?
Don't you ever get tired of pointing out to the rest of us just how evil those naughty Muslims are?
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamophobia
If that was directed at me, I hoped I did a better job of explaining my position (not that I take one here), but it's an excercise in futility sadly. I don't believe in a physical islamic threat, the only fundamentalists that are really a threat to our country's are multicultists, the most religious of them all. If muslims ever pose a serious physcial threat it's because multicultists couldn't provide a clear sense of direction raising expectations they can't meet. Some people can only think in terms of bigotry and hate, confuses me to no end.
So what reason do the pakistani's and indonesians hav to hate americans and jews, what did they ever do to them. You seem to think they have good reason to be angry, why?
I don't know that they have a good reason to hate Americans and Israelis. That is why I asked the question I did. And the answer to my question will not be an answer to the overall question itself that this thread occupies itself with, but just one part of the equation to, perhaps, finding an answer to the overall question.
Now, may I safely assume that you will continue to refuse both to answer the question or to say that you do not know the answer to the question and instead refute the question itself on the grounds that you do not like the question? And, if you continue to question the question in question, may I ask how long you will continue to do so, so that we may, perchance, find an end to the questioning of the question and, perchance, find an answer to it?
Innocentius
10-06-2007, 18:47
Fragony: No, that wasn't directed to anyone in particular except perhaps for the creator of this thread. There are already a bunch of islamophobic threads in here, why don't we just sticky a thread where upset westerners can post whenever they feel threatened by a few hundred (or less) nutjobs in some desolate middle eastern town?
HoreTore
10-06-2007, 18:58
So what reason do the pakistani's and indonesians hav to hate americans and jews, what did they ever do to them.
Pakistani's have no reason to hate the US? What?
Pakistan has a military dictator. Said dictator is a close ally of the US, and the US benefits from having him in charge.
I'd say that's more than enough reason.
Evil_Maniac From Mars
10-06-2007, 19:22
Well, at least it slants the other way... (http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/877E8E21-01A0-4498-B67F-7FD645096470.htm) But it's got similar numbers, which I guess is what you're looking for.
Thank you. When I see something from Fox I try to find a place somewhere else to back it up. I didn't in the past, but after watching Fox News on television on a trip to Costa Rica...:wall:
Boyar Son
10-06-2007, 19:26
If I may ask a politically incorrect question that bears directly upon the title of this thread - in the last two or three years, how many Muslim civilians have been killed by Israelis and Americans as opposed to American and Israeli civilians killed by Muslims?
The question has some pertinence.
Lets add all US embassy bombings + 9-11 + world trade center bombing in 90's + israeli deaths because of terrorists and palistinian/hamas/ hezbollah =???
now add: all civ casualties during iraq war 1 and 2 + israeli accidental (or not) attacks that harmed civs= ???
# should be great on both sides. note that MOST civ casualties were caused by iraqi foolish/evil freedom fighters.
I think more US and israeli deaths or more than mulsim, especially since they kill more of their own than us every time they attack.
:feedback:
Meneldil
10-06-2007, 22:17
Yeah something like that. You want to put things in perspective, there it is. They are rioting in Indonesia and Pakistan. How many of these pakistani's and indonesians got killed that they are so angry? Just riding your chain of thought.
How many people from your family got killed by muslim fundamentalists ? Probably something like what, 0, none, nada ?
Then why are you so angry ?
Quite frankly, they are morons. Giving guns to children and manifesting in such a outrageous way is silly as hell, yeah, but why would I care ? It's not as if they are actually threatening my way of life.
CrossLOPER
10-06-2007, 22:34
The world is Fox News.
Evil_Maniac From Mars
10-07-2007, 07:19
The world is Fox News.
:dizzy2:
HoreTore
10-07-2007, 07:30
Lets add all US embassy bombings + 9-11 + world trade center bombing in 90's + israeli deaths because of terrorists and palistinian/hamas/ hezbollah =???
now add: all civ casualties during iraq war 1 and 2 + israeli accidental (or not) attacks that harmed civs= ???
# should be great on both sides. note that MOST civ casualties were caused by iraqi foolish/evil freedom fighters.
I think more US and israeli deaths or more than mulsim, especially since they kill more of their own than us every time they attack.
Uhm, no, that would be wrong.
For example, Israel kills a lot more people than their enemies do. In the lebanon war, around 1000 lebanese civillians were killed, as opposed to 44 israeli citizens killed.
It's all very logical though; you're bound to kill more people when you launch air strikes as a way of assassination than you will when you ignite a homemade bomb.
And in Iraq, the estimates range from 80.000 to around a half a million dead. That's at least 10 times all the deaths of every attack on US embassies and 911.
How many people from your family got killed by muslim fundamentalists ? Probably something like what, 0, none, nada ?
Then why are you so angry ?
Makes you think I am angry? Annoyed, yeah, quite a lot.
Tribesman
10-07-2007, 10:19
Makes you think I am angry? Annoyed, yeah, quite a lot.
Would it be accurate to describe you as the non muslim version of Islamic rage boy ?
Would it be accurate to describe you as the non muslim version of Islamic rage boy ?
Morning to you and that midget that is currently using your brain for boxing practise Tribes, I trust you had a good night? No I don't think that would be accurate, are you radicalising??
Samurai Waki
10-07-2007, 10:45
I'm still having a lot of trouble equating all of this up. How many Americans/Westerners have been killed by Arabs/Muslims in the last Five Years vs How many Arabs/Muslims have killed other Arabs/Muslims and how many Americans/Westerners have killed other Americans/Westerners? The Number Would Probably quiet the lot of you complainers, fear mongers, and anti Arabists. I know for a fact, that the American civilian casualties per year in L.A. County Alone is quite close to the American Military Casualties per year in Iraq . Sort of Sad isn't it?
http://icasualties.org/oif/US_chart.aspx (American Deaths in Iraq in 2007; 824)
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/homicidereport/2007/01/index.html
(Gang Related and Homicide Deaths in just LA County this year; 664)
Ouch. Keep in mind, this is just L.A. County.
Tribesman
10-07-2007, 12:32
No I don't think that would be accurate, are you radicalising??
Well I just thought that he as he has ranting rages about things that he thinks are non-muslim and you have ranting rages about things that you think are muslim then perhaps you were twins seperated at birth .
The Number Would Probably quiet the lot of you complainers, fear mongers, and anti Arabists.
Waki its gonna take more than numbers , you can provide lists of terrorists lists of conflicts , list of killings it don't make no difference .
The whole thing about Islamaphobia is that like racism it has no real rationality , you can make them look stupid (not that it needs much effort) but you cannot get them to think beyond their irrational fears and prejudice which grow into hatred .:shrug:
Lets add all US embassy bombings + 9-11 + world trade center bombing in 90's + israeli deaths because of terrorists and palistinian/hamas/ hezbollah =???
now add: all civ casualties during iraq war 1 and 2 + israeli accidental (or not) attacks that harmed civs= ???
# should be great on both sides. note that MOST civ casualties were caused by iraqi foolish/evil freedom fighters.
I think more US and israeli deaths or more than mulsim, especially since they kill more of their own than us every time they attack.
:feedback:
Thank you for addressing the question. :bow:
You're saying the civilian casualties inflicted by the US and Israel in Iraq, Lebanon, and the Occupied Territories (for example) combined are of a lesser number than the casualties inflicted by Muslims against US and Israeli civilians?
Personally, I would think the opposite, by a wide margin. Palestinian civilian casualties have always far outweighed Israeli civilian casualties, and the numbers of Iraqis killed in the two wars is certainly in the tens of thousands at least. Some have said hundreds of thousands. US deaths in Iraq (an incredible and criminal waste of life I might add) are roughly four thousand. Tragic to be sure, but far, far less than what the Iraqis have suffered. In Lebanon, the slaughter of civilians at the hands of the Israelis was certainly in the thousands again.
I would think the number of Muslim civilians killed by the US and Israel far outweighs the numbers of civilian US and Israelis killed by Muslims. When the Muslim communities around the world see this, and see it year after year, would you not think that anger would be the result?
I'm not saying who is right and who is wrong, I'm just saying it shouldn't surprise anyone that this level of anger exists. When someone posts "Oh my! They hate us? But why?", I admit to having a bit of a chuckle at the innocence some people still exhibit.
Well I just thought that he as he has ranting rages about things that he thinks are non-muslim and you have ranting rages about things that you think are muslim then perhaps you were twins seperated at birth .
Is it very hard to intentionally not get the point? Explained (well I tried, you try convincing a fundamentalist) it soooooooooooooooo many times but you seem to be rather fixed in things, now that is pretty much common with radical leftists but you seem even more determined, sometimes I get the feeling you are in fact some weird time/space anomaly channeling messages from the seventies. You are kinda 'this' or 'that' in a rather Bushist fashion if I may say so. Well very.
KukriKhan
10-07-2007, 13:18
3 pages... almost 100 posts.
Now seems a good time to remind all that everytime you type the word "you", you are aiming your following words (usually) at another individual member - and thus getting extra attention from the Moderator staff. Please keep critiques general, on-topic, and non-personal. Let's try to make it to page 4 without anyone getting hurt.
:bow: Thanks.
edit: heehee, "...he said as he started page 4." sheesh.
Tribesman
10-07-2007, 13:42
Is it very hard to intentionally not get the point?
Oh I get the point Frag .
Looky here ...The whole thing about Islamaphobia is that like racism it has no real rationality , you can make them look stupid (not that it needs much effort) but you cannot get them to think beyond their irrational fears and prejudice which grow into hatred .
Oh I get the point Frag .
Looky here ...The whole thing about Islamaphobia is that like racism it has no real rationality , you can make them look stupid (not that it needs much effort) but you cannot get them to think beyond their irrational fears and prejudice which grow into hatred .
True - but unlike other forms of racism - some of the states where this is happening are not attempting to educate their people that such a stance is indeed stupid, and in some states this demonstration behavior is actually encourage to provide a release value so that the people don't see the actual tryanny that their own governments bring on them.
Now I don't have a problem with a group of people demonstrating that Israel and America are bad - the the nature of thier protest using guns and children seems to me in essence to be very wrong.
Oh I get the point Frag .
Looky here ...The whole thing about Islamaphobia is that like racism it has no real rationality , you can make them look stupid (not that it needs much effort) but you cannot get them to think beyond their irrational fears and prejudice which grow into hatred .
Traditional radical leftist stfullopops, always these funny little words, irrational...prejudice...hatred, the trias multicultitica. Now there is no hate in me, prejudice, well what can I say guilty your honor, do I really have to see the islamic world as equal? Who in their right mind would? But irrational? I think it is very rational to watch developments (at home, do in your desert whatever the hell you want, herd your wives love your goats I couldn't care less)closily because these developments are important to us. Ask a lefty why it is irrational and you get back cuz it uz stoopidLOLpwnd and he feels he's being rational for some reason. Watch it like you would watch the rise of any political movement that is in essence undemocratic, socialism, national socialism, the political islam.
True - but unlike other forms of racism - some of the states where this is happening are not attempting to educate their people that such a stance is indeed stupid, and in some states this demonstration behavior is actually encourage to provide a release value so that the people don't see the actual tryanny that their own governments bring on them.
You seem to be refering the the Two Minutes Hate. How right Orwell got that.
Now I don't have a problem with a group of people demonstrating that Israel and America are bad - the the nature of thier protest using guns and children seems to me in essence to be very wrong.
Fair enough. But is it the children and the guns or the children with the guns you find wrong?
PanzerJaeger
10-07-2007, 18:18
It is rather sad to see the depths at which some people sink to defend this hate-mongering. :shame:
Surely this kind of thing would not be tolerated by the same people in Western culture.
Where does this reactionary defense of the hatreds found in islam come from? Is it blind multiculturism? ...rabid anti-americanism?... anti-jewish sentiments?
Samurai Waki
10-07-2007, 18:36
EDIT: Ya know what? I had this big post, and then I suddenly asked myself the question. It's my B-Day. why am I still here? No Posts for today.
seireikhaan
10-07-2007, 18:37
Hmm. I wonder how Americans would react if the world suddenly decided that Native Americans needed a national state, so we decided to kick out all the non-Native Americans from New York, so the region could be used to establish an independant state. And then, once established, the rest of the world decides to help fund their military so they can stay on a level above us and render any attempt to retake it impetent. And then, the Native Americans decide they need a little extra room so they start demolishing neigborhoods near in Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Vermont, and Pennsylvania so they can build a wall around themselves. Yep, we wouldn't be bitter at ALL over that, now wouldn't we?:inquisitive: Stop being such :daisy: hypocrites.
Tribesman
10-07-2007, 19:14
It is rather sad to see the depths at which some people sink to defend this hate-mongering.
Don't be so hard on yourself Panzer , in truth you havn't sunk any further than usual .
Tribesman
10-07-2007, 19:35
Where does this reactionary defense of the hatreds found in islam come from?
Ah someone doesn't understand .....
Is it blind multiculturism? ...rabid anti-americanism?... anti-jewish sentiments?...really really doesn't understand .
Its simple really , think about it :idea2:
Reading what is written might be a good start .
Or how about try reading the first quote used in this post and see what is wrong with it .
It is rather sad to see the depths at which some people sink to defend this hate-mongering. :shame:
Surely this kind of thing would not be tolerated by the same people in Western culture.
Where does this reactionary defense of the hatreds found in islam come from? Is it blind multiculturism? ...rabid anti-americanism?... anti-jewish sentiments?
It's not nearly so much a defence of the hatred as an understanding of it.
Wherever one looks, Asia, Europe, Africa, South America, and most certainly North America, there is corruption and violence, apathy and neglect, greed and unfairness. It knows no bounds save perhaps Antarctica, and that's only because it's too cold and very few people live there. (Give it time.) So to pick on any one race or one country or one religion and say, "Oh look at them, they're so evil, not like us at all!" is wrong to the point of lunacy. Whether it's us doing it to them or them to us.
Is it really worse that the Palestinians have their kids march in the streets with guns than to have the Canadian government and the Catholic church turn a blind eye to thousands of native children being raped and abused in residential schools and then fight in court so that none of the victims receive compensation?
Is it really worse that a Muslim suicide bomber blows himself up killing civilians than to have an American corporation push the government to incite a revolution that kills tens of thousands so American profits can be maintained?
Is it really worse that some Muslims teach their children to hate Jews and see them as only animals than to have Israelis drop bombs on civilians and leave hundreds dead and thousands wounded?
Is it really worse that Arabs march in the streets screaming "Death to the USA" than to have the US sell tens of billions of dollars of the most advanced and horrific weapons to anyone with the cash to buy them?
I can go on and on and on. The point is, we are all exactly the same bunch of you-know-whats. And it is unfair in the extreme to pick and chose amongst the evils of the world and say they are worse than us when, perhaps, we are so unlikely to ever look in the mirror and see the evil in ourselves.
Nice questions and all, but is it really our fault that someone is better at playing the game? You will probably find a worse place there you know... You probably think that you are being idealist but imho idealists sell their house and go to africa to play football with the kids.
Congrats on 7000 posts Tribesman! :birthday2:
Nice questions and all, but is it really our fault that someone is better at playing the game? You will probably find a worse place there you know... You probably think that you are being idealist but imho idealists sell their house and go to africa to play football with the kids.
Are you saying they don't have a right to play the game because you think we're better at it? I would very much like to hear you expand on this.
As for calling me an idealist, thank you. That puts me in the company of great men indeed. :bow:
HoreTore
10-07-2007, 20:36
Where does this reactionary defense of the hatreds found in islam come from? Is it blind multiculturism? ...rabid anti-americanism?... anti-jewish sentiments?
Perhaps we don't see them as a threat, and therefore don't really care about what they do...?
Boyar Son
10-07-2007, 21:24
Uhm, no, that would be wrong.
For example, Israel kills a lot more people than their enemies do. In the lebanon war, around 1000 lebanese civillians were killed, as opposed to 44 israeli citizens killed.
It's all very logical though; you're bound to kill more people when you launch air strikes as a way of assassination than you will when you ignite a homemade bomb.
And in Iraq, the estimates range from 80.000 to around a half a million dead. That's at least 10 times all the deaths of every attack on US embassies and 911.
80,000 to a half mill dead? by US?.....i dont think so. Remember that it was the insurgents who kill more of their own then us, and dont forget that israel mostly and successfuly targets the target not the innocent, and besides that was one example used in your favor.
Terrorists consider a whole peoples or nation to be an enemy not their army, while other countries do that too, terrorists take it to a whole new level by delibritly (SP?) targeting civs and targets towns instead of military sites.
:feedback:
Devastatin Dave
10-07-2007, 22:37
The term "useful idiots" comes to mind for some reason as I read the many reponses.
Tribesman
10-07-2007, 22:41
The term "useful idiots" comes to mind for some reason as I read the many reponses.
Awww come on Dave , just because some people are being scared of the Muslims it doesn't make them all that useful really .
It's not nearly so much a defence of the hatred as an understanding of it.
Wherever one looks, Asia, Europe, Africa, South America, and most certainly North America, there is corruption and violence, apathy and neglect, greed and unfairness. It knows no bounds save perhaps Antarctica, and that's only because it's too cold and very few people live there. (Give it time.) So to pick on any one race or one country or one religion and say, "Oh look at them, they're so evil, not like us at all!" is wrong to the point of lunacy. Whether it's us doing it to them or them to us.
Is it really worse that the Palestinians have their kids march in the streets with guns than to have the Canadian government and the Catholic church turn a blind eye to thousands of native children being raped and abused in residential schools and then fight in court so that none of the victims receive compensation?
Is it really worse that a Muslim suicide bomber blows himself up killing civilians than to have an American corporation push the government to incite a revolution that kills tens of thousands so American profits can be maintained?
Is it really worse that some Muslims teach their children to hate Jews and see them as only animals than to have Israelis drop bombs on civilians and leave hundreds dead and thousands wounded?
Is it really worse that Arabs march in the streets screaming "Death to the USA" than to have the US sell tens of billions of dollars of the most advanced and horrific weapons to anyone with the cash to buy them?
I can go on and on and on. The point is, we are all exactly the same bunch of you-know-whats. And it is unfair in the extreme to pick and chose amongst the evils of the world and say they are worse than us when, perhaps, we are so unlikely to ever look in the mirror and see the evil in ourselves.
Very good post! Until man can see himself for what he really is, then there is no hope of change and certainly not peace. It's an in-built fault in humanity to deflect attention from ones own faults by directing attention to anothers faults, so that others cannot see you for who you truely are. Look at children who squabble and fight, when caught out by an adult the first thing they do is try to aportion blame on the other to try to justify their own actions.
I guess what i'm trying to say is it's about time the bloody nations and states of the world, grew up and started taking responsibility for what they do wrong and trying to reconcile themselves to the rest.
Is it going to happen? Not before there is some terrible terrible consequences first.
Mega
Boyar Son
10-07-2007, 23:52
Awww come on Dave , just because some people are being scared of the Muslims it doesn't make them all that useful really .
Now I know I have not been indirectly called a "useful idiot" because of my careful thought out posts.
And tribes, has Eire been under terrorist attacks and muslim death threats lately??
:feedback:
Evil_Maniac From Mars
10-08-2007, 00:17
80,000 to a half mill dead? by US?.....i dont think so.
Half a million is way out, but I don't think estimating forty to sixty thousand is unreasonable. Here's a small breakdown:
IBC Project (which is often criticized for estimating on the low end) states:
7,299 civilians killed at the end of the major combat phase of 2003, mostly by American air and ground forces.
Approximately 25000 killed by 2005. Criminals and insurgents were responsible for approximately 36-46% of these deaths, with Coalition soldiers responsible for the rest. American forces were responsible for 98.5% of Coalition casualties.
53% of these deaths were explosives. You say "oh, of course, car bombs were responsible for most of those". You'd be wrong. Approximately 65% of these were caused by American air strikes.
42500 civilians were reported as wounded, some of whom went on to die after this report (remember, it only goes up to 2005). A minimum of 50% of these injuries were caused by American forces, and it is likely more, as Coalition weapons were involved in almost 70% of injuries.
Link to the report. (http://reports.iraqbodycount.org/a_dossier_of_civilian_casualties_2003-2005.pdf) There are more reports by this group for more recent years.
Coalition-caused deaths.
Coalition forces, principally US as well as some UK, were identified to have killed at least 536 Iraqi civilians in year four (excluding a major incident in Najaf in January which is still under investigation by IBC). This compares with 370 in year three. If 536 seems insignificant in light of the overall total, consider for a moment what it would mean if in your country there were, on average, three incidents a week in which a foreign army killed civilians, including the killing of a 5-yr-old girl and entire families with their children. Would this army be a stabilising influence?
Papewaio
10-08-2007, 00:24
Remember no personal attacks or the thread gets locked.
PS happy birthday Wakizashi.
Boyar Son
10-08-2007, 00:27
2,671 total for anti occupy and terrorists.
And remember, it only goes up to 2005, now with this "civil war" in there killing by insurgent groups must've gone up tremendously.
Crazed Rabbit
10-08-2007, 00:38
Hmm. I wonder how Americans would react if the world suddenly decided that Native Americans needed a national state, so we decided to kick out all the non-Native Americans from New York, so the region could be used to establish an independant state. And then, once established, the rest of the world decides to help fund their military so they can stay on a level above us and render any attempt to retake it impetent. And then, the Native Americans decide they need a little extra room so they start demolishing neigborhoods near in Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Vermont, and Pennsylvania so they can build a wall around themselves. Yep, we wouldn't be bitter at ALL over that, now wouldn't we?:inquisitive: Stop being such :daisy: hypocrites.
A terrible analogy. The lands given to Israel were taken from the losers of WWI - namely Turkey. The conflict since then has been started and inflamed, as it is now in Iran, by leaders looking for a scapegoat.
Apologizing for these actions is just being a tool for the oppressive regimes in Iran, and other countries in the mideast.
As for comparisons on how many have been killed on each 'side'; one would do well to remember that the terrorists have killed as many as they possibly could try to.
CR
Evil_Maniac From Mars
10-08-2007, 01:22
And remember, it only goes up to 2005, now with this "civil war" in there killing by insurgent groups must've gone up tremendously.
As have killings by American soldiers. I'll try to find the newer report.
Boyar Son
10-08-2007, 01:31
As have killings by American soldiers. I'll try to find the newer report.
hmm...I'll doubt that if they go up we go up
...remember that the terrorists have killed as many as they possibly could try to.
CR
As opposed to "the civilised folk" who have killed as many as they wanted to.
seireikhaan
10-08-2007, 03:11
A terrible analogy. The lands given to Israel were taken from the losers of WWI - namely Turkey. The conflict since then has been started and inflamed, as it is now in Iran, by leaders looking for a scapegoat.
Apologizing for these actions is just being a tool for the oppressive regimes in Iran, and other countries in the mideast.
As for comparisons on how many have been killed on each 'side'; one would do well to remember that the terrorists have killed as many as they possibly could try to.
CR
A terrible comback, CR. First of all, I am NOT apologizing for the actions of terrorists and oppressors. It is YOU who are just being a tool for blatant racism and bigotry. I am pointing out how the west were the ones who aggravated the situation in the first place, by agreeing on Balfour behind the backs of Arabs. Tell me, CR, who was the scapegoat muslims were looking for between 1921 and 1947? Nobody. It wasn't until the UN basically plopped down a Jewish government into the area, overruling the few Arabic nations within the UN, who in the past had sacraficed millions of lives to help the west against the Ottomans, that there was major conflict between the Jews and Muslims in the area. And since going to war with the UN wasn't really an option, they took the alternative, only to find out that the west was giving Isreal advanced weaponry and other technology to make it nigh impossible to defeat them.
IrishArmenian
10-08-2007, 03:16
I always hear Muslims are so peacefull..... Mabye a Few are, but this leave me with the conclusion that they are warlike culture, period.
The extremists get the press, the moderates never do. Why? The press wants stories and a tolerant Muslim is old news.
Isn't this like someone stereotyping all Christians because some ignorant dumbasses say "God hates gays"?
"Scared of the Muslims"? Its either that or we care about human life, however, I think the former is more accurate, I apologize for doubting you, Tribes.
seireikhaan
10-08-2007, 03:18
The extremists get the press, the moderates never do. Why? The press wants stories and a tolerant Muslim is old news.
Isn't this like someone stereotyping all Christians because some ignorant dumbasses say "God hates gays"?
Pretty much. A lot of people like to forget that their are actually one billion Muslims out there, most of which actually moderate. But like you said, that never gets press, so on with the show...
KukriKhan
10-08-2007, 03:48
A terrible comback, CR. First of all, I am NOT apologizing for the actions of terrorists and oppressors. It is YOU who are just being a tool for blatant racism and bigotry. I am pointing out how the west were the ones who aggravated the situation in the first place, by agreeing on Balfour behind the backs of Arabs. Tell me, CR, who was the scapegoat muslims were looking for between 1921 and 1947? Nobody. It wasn't until the UN basically plopped down a Jewish government into the area, overruling the few Arabic nations within the UN, who in the past had sacraficed millions of lives to help the west against the Ottomans, that there was major conflict between the Jews and Muslims in the area. And since going to war with the UN wasn't really an option, they took the alternative, only to find out that the west was giving Isreal advanced weaponry and other technology to make it nigh impossible to defeat them.
There's that YOU thing again, a personal finger-pointing exercise in what might have been a (eventually) productive thread.
Good points raised by all. But the next "you" gets a closer, as being counter-productive, and we'll try again, for the 50 thousandeth time, to engage each other civilly.
seireikhaan
10-08-2007, 03:51
:shame: Apologies, Kukri, I rather let myself get a little heated when putting up that post. I shall attempt in the future to try avoiding "you", regardless of whether my opponents do or not.
KukriKhan
10-08-2007, 04:34
No worries kamikhaan, this place is designed to release heat.
My apologies that I used you (and your post) to demonstrate :bow:
Back on-topic: Do Jerusalem Day demonstrations signify hatred of US/Israel? Or something else?
Papewaio
10-08-2007, 04:53
I think like this forum they are designed to release heat... probably away from their very oppressive governments that they should be focusing on.
Scapegoats are a wonderful thing... ever wonder that governments that send in riot police against lawyers allow massive marches against external groups...
PanzerJaeger
10-08-2007, 05:23
I can go on and on and on. The point is, we are all exactly the same bunch of you-know-whats. And it is unfair in the extreme to pick and chose amongst the evils of the world and say they are worse than us when, perhaps, we are so unlikely to ever look in the mirror and see the evil in ourselves.
Is moral relativism really the best you can come up with?
Why is it so hard to simply accept that spreading hate, especially amongst children, is a bad thing - regardless of culture?
Tell me how many American children are taught to hate Jews... or muslims. Thats a far more pertinent question than casualty counts. :yes:
Tribesman
10-08-2007, 06:41
Tell me how many American children are taught to hate Jews... or muslims. Thats a far more pertinent question than casualty counts.
That is a very good point , a very very good point .
Well done Panzer . So now if some radical muslim put up on a forum something like a Prussian Blue concert or footage from Louis Theroux meets the Nazis and portrayed it as most Americans viewpoint would it not be the same as this topic , would people on that forum who agreed that it was really bad so most Americans must be really bad be wrtiting in the same vein as some here ?
HoreTore
10-08-2007, 07:09
Why is it so hard to simply accept that spreading hate, especially amongst children, is a bad thing - regardless of culture?
Tell me how many American children are taught to hate Jews... or muslims. Thats a far more pertinent question than casualty counts. :yes:
Have you even heard of what happened in good ol' white Aryan europe before 1945...?
"Oh well, we haven't done anything like that for, oh 60 years, therefore we are morally untouchable."[/irony]
And you're a fascist, right? Do tell me, how are jews and muslims generally portrayed in fascist forums...?
Is moral relativism really the best you can come up with?
Why is it so hard to simply accept that spreading hate, especially amongst children, is a bad thing - regardless of culture?
Tell me how many American children are taught to hate Jews... or Muslims. That’s a far more pertinent question than casualty counts. :yes:
I think you are right in the fact that children should not be indoctrinated one way or the other.
As for moral relativism...well I think for one to be relative and therefore in essence non-biased is a good thing. Until someone can stand back and see something objectively, one's own bias will skew their opinion.
The question here is really: Why do the parents of those children feel the need to teach their children to hate Israel/USA?
Could it be the Iranians feel surrounded and oppressed? Well lets be fair, you have a big USA military presence Directly in Iraq-west, Afghanistan-East, Kuwait and the Gulf-South, Former Bloc States-North, and with all the threats being thrown around, one must think that war is coming sooner or later?
Could it be the Iranians feel subjugated? Well lets be fair, all the sanctions being thrown at them (mainly from the US) for trying to go nuclear must be pretty annoying. What do they tell their children when they have to eat the same foods day in day out all the time? Why did the US arm Israel with nukes, yet they won't allow them to go nuclear? If the US doesn't want them to go nuclear why don't they help them out with alternate energy sources instead of dictating to them what they can or cannot do? How about spreading some of that oil the US seems so fond of around?
Could it be the Pakistani's feel betrayed? well lets be fair here, the US shows consistent support for what the Pakistani's perceive to be an illegitimate government, who were not voted for by them as a people but who took power for themselves.
Could it be the Pakistani's feel used like some kind of Whore? Well lets be fair here, the Pakistani's must be asking themselves why the US keeps supporting Musharraf, whilst on the other hand they shout and scream "evil" at those who have or still do things that Musharraf did. So why is there this inconsistency?...oh wait...it's because it's in the US' own interest to have him where he is for now, just like it was when Saddam was in charge of Iraq in the 80's.
As for the rest of the Muslims that take a dislike to the US or Israel and why they teach their children to dislike them, well it goes a little something like this....
Remember 9/11? Remember the sympathy that the rest of the west or 'developed' countries poured out on the US for their loss?
Why was it that the west did that? It's because of the similarities that the US has to the rest of the west's ideologies etc etc
So in the same way, when Muslims see what they perceive to be atrocities and injustices handed out like they were nothing, to people that they share many values with and share a common bond with, do you think it is wrong that they should also show their support and sympathies for those that they perceive to have been wronged?
Now we can all go on debating this forever, but when you see the arguments above, you must agree that the ball is in the US' court to try and change this. After all they are the one's with unlimited resources, they are the one's with all the power. It is time they started using that power and wealth abit more sensibly instead of just blowing things up, like a kid taking a temper tantrum.
mega
Why is it so hard to simply accept that spreading hate, especially amongst children, is a bad thing - regardless of culture?
I don't find that hard to accept at all. May I ask what gave you the idea that I did?
Tell me how many American children are taught to hate Jews... or muslims. Thats a far more pertinent question than casualty counts. :yes:
Are you implying that one culture has more of a reason to hate another because of what their children are taught than because of how many are killed?
Is it worse to tell Little Johnny that Fred is a godless heathen than it is for Fred to drop a bomb on Little Johnny's house and kill his whole family? If I have this wrong, please correct me.
Children are always indoctrinated one way or another. :inquisitive:
Geoffrey S
10-08-2007, 17:34
I found this (http://www.presidenri.go.id/index.php/pidato/2006/04/26/235.html) to be an interesting speech, worth a read. I particularly like his point that the only way to give the muslim world a satisfactory place in the world of today is for muslims to oppose the extremist elements which seem to get most of the press. I think that's only being made a into more difficult process by attacking muslim sovereign states and supporting repressive regimes.
Why is it so hard to simply accept that spreading hate, especially amongst children, is a bad thing - regardless of culture?
Why is so hard to simply accept that spreading hate is not the defining feature of the majority of muslims or their culture?
Why is so hard to simply accept that spreading hate is not the defining feature of the majority of muslims or their culture?
Why is it so hard to accept that it are exactly those muslims you are helping by taking a stand? This is happening and it is happening right now.
Why is it so hard to accept that it are exactly those muslims you are helping by taking a stand? This is happening and it is happening right now.
What then do you propose to eradicate the problem? It is all well throwing accusations around, but it is not really objective now, is it? So comeon... what is your answer to the extremist problem?
Boyar Son
10-08-2007, 19:31
Thank you for addressing the question. :bow:
You're saying the civilian casualties inflicted by the US and Israel in Iraq, Lebanon, and the Occupied Territories (for example) combined are of a lesser number than the casualties inflicted by Muslims against US and Israeli civilians?
Personally, I would think the opposite, by a wide margin. Palestinian civilian casualties have always far outweighed Israeli civilian casualties, and the numbers of Iraqis killed in the two wars is certainly in the tens of thousands at least. Some have said hundreds of thousands. US deaths in Iraq (an incredible and criminal waste of life I might add) are roughly four thousand. Tragic to be sure, but far, far less than what the Iraqis have suffered. In Lebanon, the slaughter of civilians at the hands of the Israelis was certainly in the thousands again.
I would think the number of Muslim civilians killed by the US and Israel far outweighs the numbers of civilian US and Israelis killed by Muslims. When the Muslim communities around the world see this, and see it year after year, would you not think that anger would be the result?
I'm not saying who is right and who is wrong, I'm just saying it shouldn't surprise anyone that this level of anger exists. When someone posts "Oh my! They hate us? But why?", I admit to having a bit of a chuckle at the innocence some people still exhibit.
How?, why? would proffesional armies continuosly kill civs? maybe a few innocent lives here and there, but it cannot reach the amount of civs killed purposely by terrorists/insurgents/palistinians....these three peoples combined outweigh anything the US or Israel did, and I do admit US and Israel (mostly US methinks) had their fair share of civ casualties, but from north africa to indonesia these guys (generaly terrorists) wreak havoc on civs deemed "infidels".
(oh and "fidel" is latin for faithful, and in makes it "UNfaithful or "faithless", I thought about that word and just wanted to point that out.)~D
:feedback:
How?, why? would proffesional armies continuosly kill civs? maybe a few innocent lives here and there, but it cannot reach the amount of civs killed purposely by terrorists/insurgents/palistinians....these three peoples combined outweigh anything the US or Israel did, and I do admit US and Israel (mostly US methinks) had their fair share of civ casualties, but from north africa to indonesia these guys (generaly terrorists) wreak havoc on civs deemed "infidels".
(oh and "fidel" is latin for faithful, and in makes it "UNfaithful or "faithless", I thought about that word and just wanted to point that out.)~D
:feedback:
Just wondering Cossack, are you tying those people who are demonstrating with militant insurgents?
Palestinians have very good, rational reasons for their hate. Like that they were kicked out of their homes that they own and hold the legal deeds to by Israel. Anyone who had that happen to them would hate Israel just as much as the Palestinians and their Muslim brothers do.
I don't like how Palestinians always get demonized just because they are Muslim, whilst Israel gets a free pass for no legitimate reason for it's shady part in the situation.
Boyar Son
10-08-2007, 19:44
Note that civs are a very large target, and terrorist dont discriminate. From coffee shops to twin towers anybody who's part of a nation/religion that is viewed evil by Muslim radicals will be a target.
Remember those Korean guys who'd like to spread christianity in taliban land??!?! (but yeah DUMB idea)
how 'bout that 50 gazzilianth suicide bomber in iraq that killed the civs of the opposite religion, or infidels.
dont forget about hezbollah who like chanting "death to Israel" and taking pics of kids ready to die for allah.
I'm not saying its the end of the world, but it seems you guys are saying these guys are w(p)ussies.
:feedback:
Was that an answer to my question Cossack?
Not discriminating is of course part of what makes terrorism, if you got a pocket-deathstar you can afford not to. Doesn't make it any less sick of course, especially considering what they are trying to achieve with it.
Boyar Son
10-08-2007, 19:55
Just wondering Cossack, are you tying those people who are demonstrating with militant insurgents?
I said "generaly". And no I'm not.
but you know that terrorists like hezbollah do like to take photos, right? and demonstrate like other demostrating civs do. makes it hard to discern dissadent and foe, also being easy for the dissadent to become the latter (foe)
Exactly right Cossack. So let's rephrase your earlier question/statements to:
How many Muslim civs have been killed by American/Israeli sovreign forces?
How many Muslim civs have killed American/Israeli civs?
How many Muslim civs have killed American/Israeli forces?
How many Muslim sovreign forces have killed American/Israeli civs?
How many Muslim sovreign forces have killed American/Israeli sovreign forces?
Hope the point is made.
Boyar Son
10-08-2007, 20:12
Exactly right Cossack. So let's rephrase your earlier question/statements to:
How many Muslim civs have been killed by American/Israeli sovreign forces?
How many Muslim civs have killed American/Israeli civs?
How many Muslim civs have killed American/Israeli forces?
How many Muslim sovreign forces have killed American/Israeli civs?
How many Muslim sovreign forces have killed American/Israeli sovreign forces?
Hope the point is made.
hand me a calculator, and lemme guess you're saying American/Israeli forces killed more?
not as much as they have killed themselves and us. get it?
we really need some charts and graphs or this thread aint goin nowhere but opinion.
('xcept mine, its bassed off of common sense!~D )
Exactly right Cossack. So let's rephrase your earlier question/statements to:
How many Muslim civs have been killed by American/Israeli sovreign forces?
How many Muslim civs have killed American/Israeli civs?
How many Muslim civs have killed American/Israeli forces?
How many Muslim sovreign forces have killed American/Israeli civs?
How many Muslim sovreign forces have killed American/Israeli sovreign forces?
Hope the point is made.
That is one way of not having to answer this; how many non-muslim citizins got killed by muslim citizins (and 'bad' muslims, they really get the shaft), the only sovereign in their view is the islam after all, should have liberal thinkers slipping of their chairs. Only a complete idiot will deny the existance of such a thing as the political islam,which is a movement that is becomming more influencial, in the muslim world and here.
hand me a calculator, and lemme guess you're saying American/Israeli forces killed more?
not as much as they have killed themselves and us. get it?
we really need some charts and graphs or this thread aint goin nowhere but opinion.
('xcept mine, its bassed off of common sense!~D )
Granted alot of the deaths in particular Iraq are from paramiltary action, but would that paramilitary action been there if the US hadn't gone oil drilling?
http://www.iraqbodycount.org/
(http://www.iraqbodycount.org/)
http://journalism.berkeley.edu/projects/arccrisis/ispal-casualty.html
http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/mostly.html
http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RS22537.pdf
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3962969.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4830782.stm
http://icasualties.org/oif
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2003/iraq/forces/casualties/
Glad you decided to use your "common sense"
Mega out
So basically the amount of people killed decides who is more evil and who is less evil now?
That is one way of not having to answer this; how many non-muslim citizins got killed by muslim citizins (and 'bad' muslims, they really get the shaft), the only sovereign in their view is the islam after all, should have liberal thinkers slipping of their chairs. Only a complete idiot will deny the existance of such a thing as the political islam,which is a movement that is becomming more influencial, in the muslim world and here.
Not really pertinent. Afterall GOD is the only true sovriegn in the eyes of Christians too (I am a Christian).
I'm still awaitng the answer to the problem of extremists too Fragony.
How can the US/Israel stop young Muslims becoming radicalised against them?
So basically the amount of people killed decides who is more evil and who is less evil now?
I don't think so Husar, but I do think that the ammount of innocents killed is at the nub of this topic, as to why there are all the demonstrations against the US/Israel.
I'm still awaitng the answer to the problem of extremists too Fragony.
How can the US/Israel stop young Muslims becoming radicalised against them?
They can't, that is just the way of things. You were doing so fine when you mentioned that the attack of 9/11 got so much response from the western world because of our shared identity, why shouldn't that work both ways.
They can't, that is just the way of things. You were doing so fine when you mentioned that the attack of 9/11 got so much response from the western world because of our shared identity, why shouldn't that work both ways.
Does it not?
And why can't the US/Israel do anything about it? They just can't because that's the way of things? You have to be kidding right?
Does it not?
And why can't the US/Israel do anything about it? They just can't because that's the way of things? You have to be kidding right?
Quite simply because the USA is currently the biggest thing and Israel the closest thing at hand, and consequently palestina, don't you feel that those that so very very much care are a bit lacking in actually doing something like feeding them?
I'm sorry I don't quite understand what you are trying to say there. Could you please explain why you think the US/Israel are being targeted, and what the last part of your statement means?
Crazed Rabbit
10-08-2007, 21:15
A terrible comback, CR. First of all, I am NOT apologizing for the actions of terrorists and oppressors.
You were making excuses for it.
It is YOU who are just being a tool for blatant racism and bigotry.
Racism against who, exactly? Iranians? Where have I made racist remarks? Bigotry - against Muslims? Please show me where I said we should use this incident to assume all Muslims worldwide share this 'Death to Israel/Great Satan/Flavor of the week' view.
I am pointing out how the west were the ones who aggravated the situation in the first place, by agreeing on Balfour behind the backs of Arabs. Tell me, CR, who was the scapegoat muslims were looking for between 1921 and 1947? Nobody. It wasn't until the UN basically plopped down a Jewish government into the area, overruling the few Arabic nations within the UN, who in the past had sacraficed millions of lives to help the west against the Ottomans, that there was major conflict between the Jews and Muslims in the area.
Oh, I'm sure it aggravated them. I would argue about the legitimacy of their grievances, but that's not really important.
And since going to war with the UN wasn't really an option, they took the alternative,
You mean the alternative other than peace, and a larger Palestinian state than they would have get today. They had a choice, and they chose war. It was not Palestinians inside Israel who declared war, but neighboring states, angry at the mere existence of Israel, which had done them no harm.
And over and over again they have chosen war. War over peace, war over progress, war over prosperity.
For decades and generations they have chosen war. Extermination of Israel has become the number one goal of the Palestinians, it seems. It is only after have repeated humiliations have neighboring states backed off. Reclaiming land, right of return? Used as excuses. Poor excuses, at that. They want to 'liberate' territory only ever ruled by Israel or the Ottomans.
Read a bit about Nasser and the 1967 war. He and his Arab contemporaries stated the reason for war was to liquidate Israel, to address the grievance of 'its existence', and that Israel would be annihilated. The lame excuses the Palestinians use while they daily attempt murder were thought of later to fool naive westerners.
What kind of mindset must one have to seek the extermination of a people for so many years? Israel pulled out of Gaza recently; what have Palestinians done with it? They have turned it into a military base to attack Israel from. When that is the thanks one gets for a unilateral gesture of peace, how can one support the palestinians?
only to find out that the west was giving Isreal advanced weaponry and other technology to make it nigh impossible to defeat them.
Horsedung.
CR
I'm sorry I don't quite understand what you are trying to say there. Could you please explain why you think the US/Israel are being targeted, and what the last part of your statement means?
Well they attacked the world trade centre the pentagon and suppoesdly the white house, sounds like a few real pillars to me, trade, security, and government, and that of the current leading country, quite a stunt no? If you are particulary powerless that really feels good, makes your own government a piece of cake. Didn't work though. Israel is still america's little baby there, being the only democracy, sounds like a alternative. Israel ain't no peach but it isn't exactly like the entire region behaves otherwise.
Sorry, I don't know if I confused you a little there.
You just explained the attacks on the US, not why you think the US is being targeted, apart from the bit about Israel.
But the attacks on America did not happen because of Israel nor wholly the support that America gives Israel. Remember that Bin-Laden was an ally of the US during the cold war, long after the re-introductin of Israel as a nation.
Crazed Rabbit
10-08-2007, 21:44
OBL wasn't an ally. We helped Afghan Mujihadeen, and he separately and with no networking with us, also fought the Soviets.
So yes, we had the same immediate goal, but to say we had an alliance is too much.
CR
Sorry, I don't know if I confused you a little there.
You just explained the attacks on the US, not why you think the US is being targeted, apart from the bit about Israel.
But the attacks on America did not happen because of Israel nor wholly the support that America gives Israel. Remember that Bin-Laden was an ally of the US during the cold war, long after the re-introductin of Israel as a nation.
That is kinda tricky you know, no such thing as order in chaos. If you think there is, fine, but you will always need those that don't, keep it up ~;)
Tribesman
10-08-2007, 22:05
OBL wasn't an ally. We helped Afghan Mujihadeen, and he separately and with no networking with us, also fought the Soviets.
So yes, we had the same immediate goal, but to say we had an alliance is too much.
True ,definately not an alliance , the CIA specificly did not have any dealings with non-afghan fighters in the afghan conflict , they gave the money and arms to the ISI and the ISI dealt with the non-afghan groups . .....But hold on thats networking isn't it , so scratch the no networking and then its true .
Oh and the money raised at the 30+MAK offices in America was individual donations not donations from the American government so they are in the clear there too .
Boyar Son
10-08-2007, 22:43
Granted alot of the deaths in particular Iraq are from paramiltary action, but would that paramilitary action been there if the US hadn't gone oil drilling?
http://www.iraqbodycount.org/
(http://www.iraqbodycount.org/)
http://journalism.berkeley.edu/projects/arccrisis/ispal-casualty.html
http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/mostly.html
http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RS22537.pdf
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3962969.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4830782.stm
http://icasualties.org/oif
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2003/iraq/forces/casualties/
Glad you decided to use your common sense
Megalos
if it wasnt for my common sense this wouldnt be here would it?
OBL wasn't an ally. We helped Afghan Mujihadeen, and he separately and with no networking with us, also fought the Soviets.
So yes, we had the same immediate goal, but to say we had an alliance is too much.
CR
I stand corrected.
But the point I was trying to make still stands. Israel and the US' stand on Israel are not the only reasons it is being targeted.
The US is certainly not helping themselves by doing the things they are doing. They are giving the Islamic extremists even more ammo to recruit impressionable young Muslims into their ranks. I'm sure you all must agree that given todays climate, there are far more potential terrorists than there were before the second gulf war?
There surely has to be a way for things to get better, otherwise we are all just waiting for a nuke to drop and the start of WWIII.
With the current political climate in Pakistan and the fears that civil war might erupt in the next couple of years there must be a real chance that Pakistans nuclear power might be at the disposal of an extremist government in the near future.
And with Iran trying to go nuclear for supposed power, why doesn't the US and any wetsern government for that matter, try helping them with an alternate power source if they take down their Uranium enrichment plants? At least that way, If Iran refuses, the world knows what Irans true intentions are.
It doesn't matter who is in the right or who is in the wrong, what's done is done and there is no going back. Israel are not suddenly going to pack their bags and say fair enough we give in, the arabic/persian states are not suddenly going to say that they welcome Israel as their new neighbor, but there has got to be a point where somebody gets through to these peoples thick heads that things aren't going to go all their own way, and that the only way forward is to accept the things that went on in the past and try and move forward through diplomacy. As it stands the US should have been the intermediary voice between all the different factions as it was before the 2nd gulf war, it being the richest most powerful state in the world, but it seems that the US has really burnt it's bridges with most of the Arabic/persian states, so how can it get back on side now? (yes i know, relations between the States and Iran/Syria have never been great, but they have certainly been alot better than they currently are).
How?, why? would proffesional armies continuosly kill civs? maybe a few innocent lives here and there, but it cannot reach the amount of civs killed purposely by terrorists/insurgents/palistinians....
Proffesional armies have been killing civilians in huge numbers since 1939 (and before to be sure). Numbers that exist only in the wildest fantasies of the sickest terrorist minds.
...these three peoples combined outweigh anything the US or Israel did, and I do admit US and Israel (mostly US methinks) had their fair share of civ casualties, but from north africa to indonesia these guys (generaly terrorists) wreak havoc on civs deemed "infidels".
I still submit that the US and Israel have killed far more Muslim civilians than the peoples you mentioned have killed US and Israeli civilians. (This relates directly to the topic of the thread. As for Muslim against Muslim atrocities, that is another matter for another thread. A topic well worth pursuing.)
Crazed Rabbit
10-09-2007, 00:46
Well said, Megalos.
I still submit that the US and Israel have killed far more Muslim civilians than the peoples you mentioned have killed US and Israeli civilians.
Yet still less than the number of terrorists and the like - ie not civilians that the US and Israel have killed. And we don't try to kill civilians.
CR
IrishArmenian
10-09-2007, 01:02
Palestinians have very good, rational reasons for their hate. Like that they were kicked out of their homes that they own and hold the legal deeds to by Israel. Anyone who had that happen to them would hate Israel just as much as the Palestinians and their Muslim brothers do.
I don't like how Palestinians always get demonized just because they are Muslim, whilst Israel gets a free pass for no legitimate reason for it's shady part in the situation.
Articulately and accurately stated.
Quoted for truth!
Boyar Son
10-09-2007, 01:09
Proffesional armies have been killing civilians in huge numbers since 1939 (and before to be sure). Numbers that exist only in the wildest fantasies of the sickest terrorist minds.
I still submit that the US and Israel have killed far more Muslim civilians than the peoples you mentioned have killed US and Israeli civilians. (This relates directly to the topic of the thread. As for Muslim against Muslim atrocities, that is another matter for another thread. A topic well worth pursuing.)
Italics on "continueosly" not have they.
terrorists/insurgents/palistinians killed more than Israel or US. And dont try to keep the "terrorists kill more civs" out!!:laugh4: thats a point that noone can disprove IMO.
especially since the main killer of muslims are muslims IE. insurgents, terrorists.
:feedback:
And we don't try to kill civilians.
I'm sure the civilians killed have a very positive feeling about that.
Italics on "continueosly" not have they.
I think proffesional armies have been continuously killing civilians for ages. And doing it very well I might add.
terrorists/insurgents/palistinians killed more than Israel or US.
The topic of this thread is specific to Muslims vis a vis the US and Israel. That being true, I stand by what I have said.
And dont try to keep the "terrorists kill more civs" out!!:laugh4: thats a point that noone can disprove IMO.
I'm sorry, I don't really follow the sentence.
especially since the main killer of muslims are muslims IE. insurgents, terrorists.
Through the course of history I'm not sure that's true. (Nor am I sure it's not.) But it is not the topic being discussed here. I would be glad to hear your points on this in a separate thread.
Strike For The South
10-09-2007, 01:43
Beirut remember that old saying about arguing with idoits? That logic applies here
Beirut remember that old saying about arguing with idoits? That logic applies here
I never argue with idoits. My aunt was Idoitian and I liked her a great deal.
As for idiots, I am afeared at times that I am the only one here. :embarassed:
Boyar Son
10-09-2007, 02:22
Why does everyone insist on insulting others directly but not putting their names so they wont get into trouble at least name names instead of being a jackass....:drama2:
"And dont try to keep the "terrorists kill more civs" out!!"
dont try to keep that out. simple.
think proffesional armies have been continuously killing civilians for ages. And doing it very well I might add.
Why do proffesional armies such as israel and US continuosly kill civs on purpose? get it now? terrorists on the other hand do, and are more succesfull.
Strike For The South
10-09-2007, 02:38
well see I respect people who put thoughts in there opinons instead of just being spoon fed
Why does everyone insist on insulting others directly but not putting their names so they wont get into trouble at least name names instead of being a jackass....:drama2:
Shhhh! I think he was talking about me.
"And dont try to keep the "terrorists kill more civs" out!!"
Why do proffesional armies such as israel and US continuosly kill civs on purpose? get it now? terrorists on the other hand do, and are more succesfull.
Killing civilians is a tool of war whose usage has neither gone out of style nor been forgotten by modern generals.
Of course terrorists kill civilians. First, it's easier. Second, it spreads terror, hence; terrorism. Whether they are more successful at it than professional armies, I think not. If for no other reason than they lack the logistics required for mass killings. (There are, of course, exceptions.)
In any case, the distinction between "on purpose" and "by mistake" may be thick and juicy on this side of the pond, but rest assured, over there, dead is dead and whoever did it, did it. If Joe Muslim wakes up to a bombed out house and six dead kids, I'll put a week's pay the difference means snail snot to him when he's digging graves.
Tribesman
10-09-2007, 06:38
Yet still less than the number of terrorists and the like - ie not civilians that the US and Israel have killed. And we don't try to kill civilians.
True , they don't try and kill civilians , they manage to do it without much effort at all .
PanzerJaeger
10-09-2007, 06:47
I still submit that the US and Israel have killed far more Muslim civilians than the peoples you mentioned have killed US and Israeli civilians.
And? You've been making the same defense over and over, yet it just doesn't hold up.
Both sides have reason to be angry with the other. (You bring up supposed body counts and I'll bring up the Twin Towers et al)
However - and this is the point of the thread - these demonstrations of hate highlight the differences between the two cultures.
After the World Trade Center was attacked George Bush immediately stated that Muslims in general were not the enemy. In Iran, and countless other muslim nations, hatred of Americans and Jews is encouraged and taught.
Now then, every time someone posts a thread about how the muslim world treats women and minorities, how they teach their children hatred, or some other backwards element of the culture; the relativists try their hardest to explain it all away.
In this thread, for example, the excuse is that a lot of muslims have been killed by Americans and Israelis. Well, a lot of Americans and Israelis have been killed by muslims.
Does any of that excuse these worldwide demonstrations of hatred, especially taught to children? Would it be acceptable to you if these were Canadians calling for the death of all muslims?
HoreTore
10-09-2007, 07:07
Why do proffesional armies such as israel and US continuosly kill civs on purpose? get it now? terrorists on the other hand do, and are more succesfull.
No they are most certainly not more effective in that area. And as you ignored me before, I'll give you the numbers again, plain and simple:
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_2006_Lebanon_War
Israel civilian casualties:
43 dead
33 seriously wounded
68 moderately wounded
1,388 lightly wounded
2,773 treated for shock and anxiety
Lebanese civilian casualties:
1,191 dead
4,409 injured
Or, said in another way, Israel killed more than 27 times as many civilians as Hezbollah did.
The source of the Israel numbers come from israel's foreign ministry, so there's no way to question those numbers. The lebanese numbers are the UN numbers. Give or take a hundred on those.
And? You've been making the same defense over and over, yet it just doesn't hold up.
I'm not defending anyone. I'm just explaining, from my point of view, why the sutuation exists.
Both sides have reason to be angry with the other. (You bring up supposed body counts and I'll bring up the Twin Towers et al)
Yes, of course.
However - and this is the point of the thread - these demonstrations of hate highlight the differences between the two cultures.
After the World Trade Center was attacked George Bush immediately stated that Muslims in general were not the enemy. In Iran, and countless other muslim nations, hatred of Americans and Jews is encouraged and taught.
Yes, of course.
Now then, every time someone posts a thread about how the muslim world treats women and minorities, how they teach their children hatred, or some other backwards element of the culture; the relativists try their hardest to explain it all away.
I might be trying to explain it, but I am not trying to explain it away. It is important to know the difference between understanding someone's behaviour, and endorsing it.
In this thread, for example, the excuse is that a lot of muslims have been killed by Americans and Israelis. Well, a lot of Americans and Israelis have been killed by muslims.
Yes, of course.
Does any of that excuse these worldwide demonstrations of hatred, especially taught to children? Would it be acceptable to you if these were Canadians calling for the death of all muslims?
Of course not. I believe you would have a hard time finding the word "acceptable" in any post I have written here.
I think you are missing my point, and perhaps that is my fault for not writing clearly enough. I do not support these demonstrations. I do not support kids with guns being taught to hate by religious leaders or the state. I do not support Islamic extremism. But, I also do not support the idea that anyone should be surprised that these demonstrations take place. If one reads their history, it is plain to see that the US and Israel (and Britain, and France) have been (bad word) around with the Arabs states and the Muslims for the past century. Redrawing borders at will, displacing populations, taking financial advantage of the oil situation, plotting coups, using CIA dirty tricks, endlessly lording over the area, it goes on and on.
My only point in all of this is that no one should be surprised how things have turned out. And no one should stand on a moral pedestal and say "Oh my! They hate us. What have we ever done to them?"
Tribesman
10-09-2007, 18:36
In Iran, and countless other muslim nations, hatred of Americans and Jews is encouraged and taught.
Is it ? I thought it was hatred of American foriegn policies and the existance of the State of Israel . Which is a big difference from hatred of Americans and Jews .
Just to remind you Panzer this story you started the topic with is a protest against an ongoing illegal action , illegal actions deserve to be protested against .
Boyar Son
10-10-2007, 01:05
No they are most certainly not more effective in that area. And as you ignored me before, I'll give you the numbers again, plain and simple:
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_2006_Lebanon_War
Israel civilian casualties:
43 dead
33 seriously wounded
68 moderately wounded
1,388 lightly wounded
2,773 treated for shock and anxiety
Lebanese civilian casualties:
1,191 dead
4,409 injured
I'm pretty sure I answered back.
woad&fangs
10-10-2007, 01:24
Is it ? I thought it was hatred of American foriegn policies and the existance of the State of Israel . Which is a big difference from hatred of Americans and Jews .
In the capital Tehran, hundreds of thousands of people poured into the streets as they chanted "Death to America" and "Death to Israel." Some protesters also burned American and Israeli flags.
I see "Death to America". Which is a big difference from "Death to American Foreign Policy"
Leet Eriksson
10-10-2007, 02:02
I see "Death to America". Which is a big difference from "Death to American Foreign Policy"
Funny that! You ever notice how the protests are all about israel, and not one bit about the jews as a people? then tell me how do you explain the threads title?
PanzerJaeger
10-10-2007, 02:32
Is it ? I thought it was hatred of American foriegn policies and the existance of the State of Israel . Which is a big difference from hatred of Americans and Jews .
Just to remind you Panzer this story you started the topic with is a protest against an ongoing illegal action , illegal actions deserve to be protested against .
"Nope, nothing to see here folks, move along."
Wow.
You know, Beirut and others brought up valid points in an effort to explain and understand this behavior, but only you seem to be defending it.
And your defense? "There's no hate. Its all just a big lovely demonstration against policy." Talk about having one's head 6 feet in the ground. :shame:
Either you have completely deluded yourself into actually believing that those people shouting "Death to Americans" are in fact only demonstrating against nuanced policy decisions, or you're towing the leftist line with little regard for actual thought.
PS. Why is it that you always seem to be comparing my opinions to those of the Nazis, while it seems I am the one constantly standing up for women, minorities, and religious freedom and against the spread of hate. You're always defending the muslims who are responsible for such injustices.
Lets see, you come down on the side of oppression and hate speech and I oppose it. Who is the Nazi?? :yes:
Leet Eriksson
10-10-2007, 02:53
Says the guy who called the muslims a cancer that needs to be exterminated.
YEP NOT A NAZI THERE :sweatdrop:
Have you not realised there are also progressive forward thinking muslims? or are you still stuck thinking Iran are representatives of Islam/The Muslim Word?
P.S:just for the record, they [Iran] haven't massacred their 25,000 jewish minority yet, i wonder why.
EDIT: just for kicks, from Who the hell are you anyway? A compilation of Orgah summations sticky in the backroom:
Panzerjager *photo* - The fascist resident of the org, anyone who thinks Kaiser (once upon a time Capo) of Arabia is fascist has never met this guy. We assume he lives in America and therefore safe from the vengeful Bundeswehr, but anyway, his loyalty to Nazi Germany and its ideologies, and the strange acceptance of capitalism at its least human, just like Mussolini's fascism, puts him into clashes with moderators and other members often enough. A member of the Right, though an extreme one not entirely in synch with the mainstream, he's notable for being against the current Islamic "menace" against the West, and his subsequent support for Israel. Panzerjager - See Kaiser of Arabia
PanzerJaeger
10-10-2007, 05:13
Funny that! You ever notice how the protests are all about israel, and not one bit about the jews as a people?
Untrue. Israeli and Jew are interchangeable amongst many if not most of these people. Just pay attention to the signs next time their on the news burning Jews in effigy.
http://conservativehome.blogs.com/torydiary/images/holo_2.jpg http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,581992,00.jpg
If you really want to get into muslim anti-jewish sentiments, we can. Attacks on Jews can be found in the koran and those attitudes can be traced far before Zionism existed.
EDIT: just for kicks, from Who the hell are you anyway? A compilation of Orgah summations sticky in the backroom:
I didn't write that, although its pretty good... lol. :2thumbsup:
If you really want to get into muslim anti-jewish sentiments, we can. Attacks on Jews can be found in the koran and those attitudes can be traced far before Zionism existed.
I thought the Koran referred to Jews and Christians as "People of the Book"?
Tribesman
10-10-2007, 06:56
Says the guy who called the muslims a cancer that needs to be exterminated.
Thats not nice faisal . you make Panzer look like a hate filled bigot when you quote him like that .
Play nicely now, I am sure panzer was quoted out of context :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
Dress up like a orthodox jew and take a stroll in one of Amsterdam's culturally enriched area and see how far you get. Saying there is no anti-semitism within the islamist community is criminally ignorant.
Geoffrey S
10-10-2007, 10:30
At least we enlightened Westeners don't paint all Muslims, spanning many countries and countless ethnic groups and religious views, with the same brush when referring to the actions of a clear minority. Sheesh.
Dress up like a orthodox jew and take a stroll in one of Amsterdam's culturally enriched area and see how far you get. Saying there is no anti-semitism within the islamist community is criminally ignorant.
Wear a Canadian flag in the east end of Montreal or disguise yourself as a black teenager in some parts of the US and see where either gets you.
Ig'nace is ever-whur.
Duke John
10-10-2007, 12:11
What a bollocks the message of the title of this thread is. With taking things that much out of context (=number of muslim protesters/total number of muslims) you might just as well say that Nazi germany has risen from its ashes if you only focus on the Neo-Nazis shouting "Auslander aus!".
***
Israeli and Jew are interchangeable amongst many if not most of these people.
In Iran many people are watching a TV show about Jews in World War 2: http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/09/16/africa/ME-GEN-Iran-Jews-TV-Series.php
From the article:
The show's appearance now may reflect an attempt by Iran's leadership to moderate its image as anti-Semitic and to underline a distinction that Iranian officials often make — that their conflict is with Israel, not with the Jewish people.
The Wizard
10-10-2007, 12:57
Remember that Ahmadinejad is the Iranian version of Ann Coulter and that there are many more liberal Iranian politicians and other state employees about. Also remember that Ahmadinejad is not necessarily a puppet of the beards in power, and that he may, in fact, be in a power struggle with Khamenei over who decides policy.
So this doesn't have to mean anything at all for Iran's currently dominant politics save to show that there are different tendencies within Iranian society than merely the primal soup conservatives that Mahmoud Ahmadinejad embodies.
AntiochusIII
10-10-2007, 17:17
Also remember that Ahmadinejad is not necessarily a puppet of the beards in power, and that he may, in fact, be in a power struggle with Khamenei over who decides policy.Whom do you prefer, by the way?
Tribesman
10-10-2007, 18:43
. Why is it that you always seem to be comparing my opinions to those of the Nazis, while it seems I am the one constantly standing up for women, minorities, and religious freedom and against the spread of hate.
Errrrr...Panzer it seems that you are the one constantly standing up for women , minorities, religeous freedom and against the spread of hate ONLY when you direct it against Muslims .
There is a word for that .:yes:
The Wizard
10-10-2007, 19:33
Whom do you prefer, by the way?I'd rather have Mohammed Khatami over either Ahmadinejad or his bearded superiors, to be honest. Khamenei, at least, looks a bit more tractable and reasonable than Ahmadinejad, but then again, he has been the executive force responsible for the recent crackdown on Iranian civil liberties. Nor was Khatami a genuine good guy, either... :gah:
Errrrr...Panzer it seems that you are the one constantly standing up for women , minorities, religeous freedom and against the spread of hate ONLY when you direct it against Muslims .
There is a word for that .:yes:
Which would be 'common sense', not the only part but everything is the same for a cultist , he will find a similar event in Utah and gets the chance to be a little bit more angry then he already was in the first place. I am sure you have seen horrible things in your travels of course, when you sold your house and crossed the seas to africa to help these poor people how to lose on penalties and still look good.
Tribesman
10-10-2007, 20:21
well done Fragony , that makes no sense at all .
Congratulations:2thumbsup:
Hold on.....oh ......I think I get it now , you are upset at finding that panzer appears to have the same anti-muslim fetish you suffer from .
well done Fragony , that makes no sense at all .
Congratulations:2thumbsup:
Hold on.....oh ......I think I get it now , you are upset at finding that panzer appears to have the same anti-muslim fetish you suffer from .
I don't agree with panzer, but there is just nothing about you to agree about, you are a radical. Of course it doesn't make sense to you.
Tribesman
10-10-2007, 20:56
I don't agree with panzer
Yet you both will manage to do a complete U-turn of your views on an topic if it involves people who are Muslim...Islam seems to be just about the only issue with you .
It must be a fetish thing .
It must be a fetish thing .
It must most certainly must be mylittlepwny
PanzerJaeger
10-10-2007, 21:40
Yet you both will manage to do a complete U-turn of your views on an topic if it involves people who are Muslim....
[Insert pot & kettle comment here.]
You seem to be able to completely ignore obvious injustices when they are perpetrated by muslims. I would suggest some self examination before condemning others.
Tribesman
10-10-2007, 21:58
You seem to be able to completely ignore obvious injustices when they are perpetrated by muslims. I would suggest some self examination before condemning others.
So you will obviously be able to show a post where I completely ignore injustices then ? or how about one where I support terrorism ? Regardless of race or creed .
It won't take much effort to show posts by yourself where you ignore injustices and support terrorism
So before you have the front suggest self examination to another you had better look in the mirror .
Or if you cannot get a mirror look at what Faisal wrote , your own words speak volumes , your own words show your thoughts for what they are .
So you will obviously be able to show a post where I completely ignore injustices then ? or how about one where I support terrorism ? Regardless of race or creed .
That would settling somewhere, but that isn't your thing is it. You need a view from the top.
I think that's a good thing, just see Tribes as your conscience. :2thumbsup: ~;)
KukriKhan
10-10-2007, 22:32
An entire page of "you" messages, posters taking shots at each other, rather than the topic. This is tedious to the reader.
I thank all for their input. :bow:
Topic is closed.
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