View Full Version : Former Iranian President: "Hitler Saved Europe from the Jews"
PanzerJaeger
10-12-2007, 08:22
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,301296,00.html
Hashemi Rafsanjani, former Iranian president and current Chairman of the Assembly of Experts, said Friday that Hitler’s treatment of Jewish people in Europe was due in part to their being “a pain in the neck.”
Rafsanjani’s comments came during a sermon for "International Jerusalem Day" on Iranian TV.
Rafsanjani noted that Jews caused problems for European governments because they “had a lot of property” and “controlled an empire of propaganda.” He also said that the Nazis were successful in saving Europe from the evil of Zionism.
The former Iranian leader served as president from 1989 to 1997, and was succeeded by Mohammad Khatami. Rafsanjani ran for a third term in office in 2005, but lost to current President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.
While these comments are relatively irrelevant - former US President Jimmy Carter says crazy things all the time :beam: - it does highlight an issue that was being debated in another thread.
The resident muslim advocates attempted to assert that muslim hatred was directed towards Israelis and there was a clear distinction among muslims between Israelis and other Jews.
However, as this story points out, anti-semitism(yes, I know, and I'm going to use the word anyway because I dont like anti-jewishness) makes no distinctions among many muslims. :shame:
But there is this new televisionseries, about the holocaust! Schindlers Beard it was called I think, or was it Then things I hate about jews, forgot :dizzy2:
Tribesman
10-12-2007, 09:18
What a surprise Panzer , you take a "quote" from Memri and even have to change that to make a title :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: Do you ever wonder why that organisation copywrites its "translations" ?
Would you like an actual quote from your own president instead ?
The resident muslim advocates attempted to assert that muslim hatred was directed towards Israelis and there was a clear distinction among muslims between Israelis and other Jews.
:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: is there also not a clear distinction between Isrealis , Jews and Zionists or would you like an Israeli article goung on about the threat to Israel society because of the decline in Israelis who are Zionists and the shrinking numbers of American Jews who are also Zionists .
At first I didn't know whether this was a celebration of the event or the opposite.
But it's interesting to see how a single former president of Iran represents the views of all muslims worldwide, just like Bush represents the views of all christians and atheists I guess. :laugh4:
But it's interesting to see how a single former preident of Iran represents the views of all muslims worldwide, just like Bush represents the views of all christians and atheists I guess. :laugh4:
Well see it like this, either he is a nutjob, but state leaders rarely are, or he has a big crowd to please.
Tribesman
10-12-2007, 10:39
But it's interesting to see how a single former preident of Iran represents the views of all muslims worldwide
Whats more interesting is Panzers comment ..."a clear distinction among muslims between Israelis and other Jews. " when using a source that is not only extremely pro-zionist rather than pro-Jewish or pro-Israeli but has a history of taking articles and speeches and replacing the word Zionist or Zionism with Jewish and Judaism in its "translations" .:yes:
Well see it like this, either he is a nutjob, but state leaders rarely are, or he has a big crowd to please.
Well, Bush is better than most stand up comedians.
Here he is, declaring Mandela dead:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NKmdd0clmQ
Seamus Fermanagh
10-12-2007, 12:54
First:
Rafsanjani's position as head of the council of experts means that he is VERY much a player in Iranian politics and arguably on a parallel with Mr. A. This suggests that any quotation from him is worthy of attention. Actually, PJ, your comparison to Carter is inaccurate. Carter is a self-styled ambassador to the World. He does NOT wield the influence on policy that Mr. Rafsanjani likely does.
Second:
Tribes, if you believe the source used by PJ was a poor translation, it is implicitly incumbent upon you to provide us -- the readers of your counter-argument -- with a better one. I don't mind doing research, but it weakens your argument when you say: "your point is invalid because your source is questionable" but fail to provide evidence confirming its questionable character on this point. Nothing about this site being a motley crew of ardent zionists precludes there ability to have translated Rafsanjani accurately. If you think they blew it, show us. This would, by the way, sink PJ's point more effectively than you have done (so far).
Now, back to your corners. When you come out, I don't want any rabbit blows, head butts, or kicking....and do not bring the corner stool with you as a weapon.
Rafsanjani's position as head of the council of experts means that he is VERY much a player in Iranian politics and arguably on a parallel with Mr. A. This suggests that any quotation from him is worthy of attention.
That may be true, but it still doesn't mean that all muslims think like he does, as PJ wants to make us believe. Even if all muslims in Iran think like that guy, there are a whole lot more muslims worldwide.
Now, back to your corners. When you come out, I don't want any rabbit blows, head butts, or kicking....and do not bring the corner stool with you as a weapon.
You're looking for a moderator post? ~D
The Wizard
10-12-2007, 17:44
As far as I know, regardless of the political agenda that it may or may not have, MEMRI provides accurate translations. Interpretations, now... that might be a different matter.
Somehow, before clicking this thread, I just knew that this was Rafsanjani and not Khatami. 'Lo and behold... unfortunately for us, Rafsanjani and his chums are the dudes who are supposed to be controlling what the supreme beard does and doesn't do, and also fill him in on what's wise to do and what isn't. He is extremely close to the final and ultimately supreme power in the Iranian political system and the fact that he's the one saying this is not a good sign.
EDIT: Having seen the video now, I dispute PanzerJager's view on the man's words. What our friendly beard (or is that goatee?) here is trying to do is drive a wedge between Zionists -- that is, Jewish patriots/nationalists -- and Jews in general (those not expressly declaring themselves proponents of the Jewish national cause). Unfortunately for him, it's done in such an incredibly crude way that the only purpose it will serve is to strengthen the arguments of Zionists when they criticize the Iranians and bespeak the plight of the Jewish nation in the Middle East, beset by a country ruled by idiots such as this man, Akbar Rafsanjani. Add to that his imposing list of lies, slander, half-truths and general ignorance while talking, and you got another Iranian embarassment complete.
rotorgun
10-12-2007, 17:56
"Hitler saved Europe from the Jews", " The Holocaust never happened, but was a Zionist hoax". Sure.....and Pigs do have wings! These people may as well be ostriches with their heads in the sand.
Tribesman
10-12-2007, 19:47
As far as I know, regardless of the political agenda that it may or may not have, MEMRI provides accurate translations.
So they wouldn't do things like translate atheist into heretic or switch zionist into jewish ?
What our friendly beard (or is that goatee?) here is trying to do is drive a wedge between Zionists -- that is, Jewish patriots/nationalists -- and Jews in general (those not expressly declaring themselves proponents of the Jewish national cause). ...but but there are all the same to Muslims eh .
The Holocaust never happened, but was a Zionist hoax
Are you quoting Memris' version of Finkelsteins words there Rotor ?
He did get a little upset over that you know:yes: and it wasn't even a translation , it was english into english that they managed to change .
PanzerJaeger
10-12-2007, 21:42
If the translation was wrong, can you provide an accurate one? I'll be glad to rescind my words.
Tribesman
10-12-2007, 22:07
Which words Panzer , the ones you yourself changed to make the title ?
PanzerJaeger
10-12-2007, 22:18
Hashemi Rafsanjani, former Iranian president and current Chairman of the Assembly of Experts, said Friday that Hitler’s treatment of Jewish people in Europe was due in part to their being “a pain in the neck.”
Rafsanjani’s comments came during a sermon for "International Jerusalem Day" on Iranian TV.
Rafsanjani noted that Jews caused problems for European governments because they “had a lot of property” and “controlled an empire of propaganda.” He also said that the Nazis were successful in saving Europe from the evil of Zionism.
The former Iranian leader served as president from 1989 to 1997, and was succeeded by Mohammad Khatami. Rafsanjani ran for a third term in office in 2005, but lost to current President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.
Those words. What was changed?
Come now, tribes, if I've made assertions based on inaccurate information then you've got me nailed to the proverbial wall. Lets not drag it out. :smg:
What was changed that would make my assertions unfounded?
The Wizard
10-12-2007, 22:52
So they wouldn't do things like translate atheist into heretic or switch zionist into jewish ?If you'd actually attempted to listen, you'd have noticed that Rafsanjani clearly pronounces the words "Zionist" and "Zionism" multiple times.
...but but there are all the same to Muslims eh .When did I ever claim that? You're putting words in my mouth. In fact, the simple fact that this man is trying to use lies to drive a wedge in between one Jewish group and a (more vague) other one, makes it clear that that is not the case.
"Hitler saved Europe from the Jews", " The Holocaust never happened, but was a Zionist hoax". Sure.....and Pigs do have wings! These people may as well be ostriches with their heads in the sand.
Well yeah, Turks don't speak of the Armenian Genocide, they call it Armenian immigration.
Well yeah, the Holocaust was also just some Jews doing mass-suicides. Worse things happened.
:no:
Tribesman
10-12-2007, 23:40
If you'd actually attempted to listen, you'd have noticed that Rafsanjani clearly pronounces the words "Zionist" and "Zionism" multiple times.
As it happens I was refering to their translations from egyptian TV and their alterations of an American university paper(in English) as examples , though Finkelsteins would also serve as well or the Al-jazeera piece this week on some western medias reliance on the forwarded "translatons" of dinnerjackets words instead of ripping into the actual words he spoke .
When did I ever claim that? You're putting words in my mouth.
Ah I see , that wasn't putting words in your mouth , that was using your words to ridicule the opening post .
And they lived happily everafter, but still we have nothing on the rediculous claim that this is wrongly translated. Do we have to take your word for it or do you have a link to indymedia
Tribesman
10-14-2007, 13:14
And they lived happily everafter, but still we have nothing on the rediculous claim that this is wrongly translated. Do we have to take your word for it or do you have a link to indymedia
Indymedia....who are they ? Oh you mean the website of the groups known as indymedia that has lots and lots of pages dealing with Memris errrrrrr..... "translations".:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
Well done Frag , thank you :2thumbsup:
Indymedia....who are they ? Oh you mean the website of the groups known as indymedia that has lots and lots of pages dealing with Memris errrrrrr..... "translations".:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
Well done Frag , thank you :2thumbsup:
Actually it's an extreme leftist propaganda site, glad to see you haven't heard of it. Surprised, but pleased. But, about that translation thing, we will just have to take your word for it? Quite a claim. Since I didn't read anything about his remark in the red machine newspapers I'll have to assume he actually said that.
Tribesman
10-14-2007, 13:48
Well that clearly went over you head:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
Is that absolutily nothing at all or are you just happy to see me?
Myrddraal
10-14-2007, 18:43
nevermind
Tribesman
10-15-2007, 01:33
Is that absolutily nothing at all or are you just happy to see me?
aLWys happy to see you FraG, your posts make ridicule so much easier.
So now my little dutch anti muslim fetishist can you provide an accurate translation of the speech???? ..dreadfuly sory but most of thee translationservices arestill going onabout previous "translations"from memri .Give them a chance to catch up with te propoganda machine
Soooo...
I'll have to assume he actually said that.you know what they say about assumptions .:yes:
PanzerJaeger
10-15-2007, 02:46
You said the translation was off, tribes. I'd really like to know what the man said.
Why don't you just post the supposed real translation so you can put the anti-muslim fetishists in their place?
As I said, if I copy/pasted an incorrect translation, I will rescind what I wrote, but as of now you're just being obnoxious.
Tribesman
10-15-2007, 03:41
OMG the resident fascist is suggesting that I am being obnoxius....I am soooooooo offended
I will rescind what I wrote
what a kind offer ..but where will you start is it with...."Hitler Saved Europe from the Jews"
or will it be The resident muslim advocates attempted to assert that muslim hatred was directed towards Israelis and there was a clear distinction among muslims between Israelis and other Jews.
perhaps even again
I will rescind what I wrote........ no need Panzer stick by your own words that you wrote , stick by your own words that you repeatedly write , they speak volumes .:thumbsdown:
Though if I might quote some Jewish fellow who obviously in the minds of Iranian nutcaes is exactly the same as followers of Kahane as there is clearly no difference....hmmmm......oh yes "translations"....memris are made of this it is as trustworthy as Julius Streicher's Der Sturmer was on the Jewish world.
Now at a really vauge guess I suppose you are familiar with Streicher , not of course that I am suggesting that his works are in your favourite reading list and I am sure that if his poster should addorn your wall it is only because the golden pheasant uniform of a Gaulieter looks so fetching .
PanzerJaeger
10-15-2007, 03:54
Yes, yes... bla bla bla.
I posted a translation that seemed to show a rather powerful muslim stating that Hitler rid Europe of Zionism, which would support my assertion that many muslims have a hard time distinguishing between Zionist Jews and non-Zionist.
You said the translation was not right. Can you give the correct translation?
rotorgun
10-15-2007, 04:20
Are you quoting Memris' version of Finkelsteins words there Rotor ? He did get a little upset over that you know:yes: and it wasn't even a translation , it was english into english that they managed to change .
Sorry it took me so long to get back to you me-bucko, but I was merely paraphrasing the generally accepted statements coming from various Iranian officials concerning the Holocaust, such as......."The Holocaust never happened, but was a Zionist hoax."
:2cents:
Tribesman
10-15-2007, 04:23
posted a translation that seemed to show a rather powerful muslim stating that Hitler rid Europe of Zionism
Well thats news for Europe:dizzy2: don't you mean that Hitler tried to rid europe of Jews..but of course some people cannot make distinctions eh ?:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
which would support my assertion that many muslims have a hard time distinguishing between Zionist Jews and non-Zionist.
Really ? then why does he use the word Zionist and then also use the word Jew , you claim they are the same and there is no distinction ..funny really when you consider that the Iranian State run TV had an Austrian orthodox rabbi being highly critical of what passes for Zionism in Israel...surely if there was no distinction then this statewould certainly not have a rabbi on TV as he must be a zionist , but if he is not a zionist then they would be undermining the claim you put upon them that jews and zionists are inseperable and indistinguishable
...so panzer would you like to borrow a gun to shoot yourself in the foot or have you managed to do it already:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
Tribesman
10-15-2007, 04:43
Well thats news for Europe:dizzy2: don't you mean that Hitler tried to rid europe of Jews..but of course some people cannot make distinctions eh ?:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
Really ? then why does he use the word Zionist and then also use the word Jew , you claim they are the same and there is no distinction ..funny really when you consider that the Iranian State run TV had an Austrian orthodox rabbi being highly critical of what passes for Zionism in Israel...surely if there was no distinction then this statewould certainly not have a rabbi on TV as he must be a zionist , but if he is not a zionist then they would be undermining the claim you put upon them that jews and zionists are inseperable and indistinguishable
...so panzer would you like to borrow a gun to shoot yourself in the foot or have you managed to do it already:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
edit..
was merely paraphrasing the generally accepted statements coming from various Iranian officials concerning the Holocaust, such as......."The Holocaust never happened, but was a Zionist hoax."
ah so that would be the conference about myths about the holocaust and the exploitation and misrepresentation of historical facts concerning the systematic slaughter of european Jews...another translation error thing . :2thumbsup: thank you(though that time it is mainly the BBC{obcviously liberals}whose farsi service screwed upthe translations that were repeated by worldwide media)
Tell me Rotor can you think of one myth about ha-shoah that is often repeated again and again on this forum and no matter how many times people point it out it still gets repeated...(hint ...Americas war against Germany)
rotorgun
10-15-2007, 04:51
Well thats news for Europe:dizzy2: don't you mean that Hitler tried to rid europe of Jews..but of course some people cannot make distinctions eh ?:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
And so did the English, the French, the Italians, the Spanish, and several other European peoples over the last, say....nine centuries or so. Where stands the Irish on Anti-Zionism, Jewishness, or Anti-Semite feelings? Er...I mean in the past?
aLWys happy to see you FraG, your posts make ridicule so much easier.
So now my little dutch anti muslim fetishist can you provide an accurate translation of the speech???? ..dreadfuly sory but most of thee translationservices arestill going onabout previous "translations"from memri .Give them a chance to catch up with te propoganda machine
Soooo...you know what they say about assumptions .:yes:
Uhmm, it is your claim not mine, man, you must really miss the days that saying anti was enough for applause.
So, the correct translation, I and not just me, asked for it, well several times.
Do tell what they say about assumptions
Banquo's Ghost
10-15-2007, 07:37
I appreciate that tempers have been kept in check so far, but a little more civility would not go amiss.
Thank you kindly.
:bow:
PanzerJaeger
10-15-2007, 08:03
Well thats news for Europe:dizzy2: don't you mean that Hitler tried to rid europe of Jews..but of course some people cannot make distinctions eh ?:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
Really ? then why does he use the word Zionist and then also use the word Jew , you claim they are the same and there is no distinction ..funny really when you consider that the Iranian State run TV had an Austrian orthodox rabbi being highly critical of what passes for Zionism in Israel...surely if there was no distinction then this statewould certainly not have a rabbi on TV as he must be a zionist , but if he is not a zionist then they would be undermining the claim you put upon them that jews and zionists are inseperable and indistinguishable
...so panzer would you like to borrow a gun to shoot yourself in the foot or have you managed to do it already:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
uh huh... Do you have that translation that disputes the one I posted. Thats really all you're needed for, k? ~:)
Hmmm found a few where he does in fact says zionists(jews get more hits though), Tribes might just have a point about translation, but later he talks about 'jews' causing problems so for the purpose of this thread, yes the destinction is rather unclear.
Watchman
10-15-2007, 13:07
And so did the English, the French, the Italians, the Spanish, and several other European peoples over the last, say....nine centuries or so.You mean the ugly track record organized Christianity has concerning Jews ? It actually goes far back enough that the first-phase Muslim conquerors were welcomed as liberators from the oppressive Byzantine, nevermind now Iberian Visigothic, yoke... which they pretty much were too. (Smaller Christian sects at odds with the big boys tended to like them too.)
But hey, it's not like Zionism came out of nowhere.
Tribesman
10-15-2007, 15:16
Hmmm found a few where he does in fact says zionists(jews get more hits though),
What ??OMG you don't mean to say that there are several differnt "translations" avail;able , surely something as simple as a striagjhtforward translation would only give one version...then again I suppose that the message that you want to convey could possibly if you really stretch it to the limits give a slightly or entirelty different version of the actual words...whodathunkit eh
What ??OMG you don't mean to say that there are several differnt "translations" avail;able , surely something as simple as a striagjhtforward translation would only give one version...then again I suppose that the message that you want to convey could possibly if you really stretch it to the limits give a slightly or entirelty different version of the actual words...whodathunkit eh
Don't get too eager, it is 'zionists' as you said but later in the article it says 'jews', neither of us speaks farsi so your guess is as good as mine, but ok I admit you were right on how the title was presented.
Tribesman
10-15-2007, 15:45
then again Frag there are many types of zionism , not all of which are Jewish , it does leave an even larger scope for misrepresentation doesn't it...and the main complaints about memri do concern misrepresentation and decontextualisation in their "translation" services .
The Wizard
10-15-2007, 16:17
He makes a distinction, but immediately goes on attributing the Holocaust, and then the shoah in particular, as an event that had been provocated beforehand by some kind of Zionist plot or somesuch idiocy.
Tribesman
10-15-2007, 16:36
Does he ?
I thought he blamed it on a European movement that blamed everything from military defeat to the repossesion problems facing Bavarian farmers on the Jews ..
Oh well you learn something new every day .
Wasn't the holocaust in fact not one big robbery? Would be interesting to know how much capital the jews really had and how socialistic the nazi's really were. Replace 'rich' or 'company's' with 'jews' et voila. Why hate jews what did they ever do to us, makes no sense.
The Wizard
10-15-2007, 17:01
Does he ?
I thought he blamed it on a European movement that blamed everything from military defeat to the repossesion problems facing Bavarian farmers on the Jews ..
Oh well you learn something new every day .In this video (note that this is only a clipping from Rafsanjani's full speech, one proper piece of criticism concerning MEMRI) our friendly beard attributes the Nazi's Final Solution not to a Jewish problem, but to a Zionist one. In this way he implies that "normal" Jews should distance themselves from Zionist ones since it was the Zionists who brought the shoah on the Jewish people. Which, as you note in your post, is utter crap.
Seamus Fermanagh
10-15-2007, 20:08
In this video (note that this is only a clipping from Rafsanjani's full speech, one proper piece of criticism concerning MEMRI) our friendly beard attributes the Nazi's Final Solution not to a Jewish problem, but to a Zionist one. In this way he implies that "normal" Jews should distance themselves from Zionist ones since it was the Zionists who brought the shoah on the Jewish people. Which, as you note in your post, is utter crap.
Classic rhetorical tactic by Mr. R., though. Allows him to maintain his "Israel must be smashed" stance that plays so well among the non-Shia M.E. audience while providing plausible deniability regarding anti-semitism. Can simply label Israel as the problem while ostensibly (and actually?) not being racist. Iran's policies regarding its native Jewry seem to support this stance as well. If this involves a little historical "redaction" on R.'s part, he wouldn't be the first political speaker to do so by a long chalk.
Watchman
10-15-2007, 20:55
Wasn't the holocaust in fact not one big robbery? Would be interesting to know how much capital the jews really had and how socialistic the nazi's really were. Replace 'rich' or 'company's' with 'jews' et voila. Why hate jews what did they ever do to us, makes no sense.Christian European hatred of the Jews was always kinda light on the rational reasons side, outside the facts they were A) an unapologetically distinct and noticeable group (and we all know how well Joe Average likes that in general, nevermind when the times are trying - and for the common folk, they were that more or less all the time...) B) widely scattered in small groups and hence fairly easy to victimize if necessary C) got a lot of crap piled on them by the rather influential religious authorities for a number of murky reasons, which sort of stuck.
The Church did have a ban on usury going for a long time so that left the Jews and their real enough contacts with each other as the main moneylenders and proto-bankers in Europe for quite a while; this did make many of them quite rich, although assorted regulations often made it next to impossible for them to display their wealth - nevermind now that it would have been distinctly dangerous for them to do so anyway. Due to some cultural reasons Jews also tended to be among the better educated and more literate people around, forming a sort of grassroots intelligentsia - Jewish doctors were in fairly high demand among the more pragmatically minded aristocrats for example, AFAIK.
In any case I think I don't need to explain why all that did not particularly help the opinion the unwashed majority held them in. Or the more dogmatic prejudices.
Later on, especially in the more primitive backwaters of the "serf states" of Central and Eastern Europe, the Jews were one of the few groups with any real degree of financial savvy and competence. This made them the natural middlemen of assorted potentates, and the serfs readily enough transferred the resentement they felt for their superiors to the "middle management" level as well - doubly so as it was a whole lot safer. Not that the Jews were any less prone to abusing the power and authority such positions gave them than anyone else, of course. Tax farmers and loan sharks tend to be somewhat unpleasant anywhere, especially as their bosses tend not give a hoot about their doings so long as they get their dues.
And then there was of course the general developement towards a "persecuting society" in Europe, argued to have been well on its way already in the Middle Ages (when lepers and Jews were curiously readily lumped together for ostracization, and often with oddly similar arguments), and not particularly hindered by the savage religious wars and later militant-jingoist nationalisms.
As for the Nazis, meh. Hitler made a point of purging the people who took the "socialist" part too literally; you will recall he wasted no time getting cozy with Big Business and outlawing labour unions and similar "hives of Bolshevist villainy"... The Nazis' curiously archaic policies of pillaging were more the result of their quite questionable fiscal management practices (and sheer incompetence thereof) and the resulting shortages of funds and resources, and plain old abuses of largely unfettered power over your fellow man which tends to do bad things to anyone's head.
rotorgun
10-15-2007, 22:00
did[/I] have a ban on usury going for a long time so that left the Jews and their real enough contacts with each other as the main moneylenders and proto-bankers in Europe for quite a while; this did make many of them quite rich, although assorted regulations often made it next to impossible for them to display their wealth - nevermind now that it would have been distinctly dangerous for them to do so anyway. Due to some cultural reasons Jews also tended to be among the better educated and more literate people around, forming a sort of grassroots intelligentsia - Jewish doctors were in fairly high demand among the more pragmatically minded aristocrats for example, AFAIK.
In some cases, it was the fact that the rulers of many "Christian" nations owed so much to the Jewish bankers who loaned them the money for their wars that led to many a sort of mini-holocaust. Witness the behavior of the great Plantagenet King Richard, Cour de Lion, who presided over one such purging. It was a convenient way to rid himself of an enormous debt. (The Plantagenet Chronicles)
As for the Nazis, meh. Hitler made a point of purging the people who took the "socialist" part too literally; you will recall he wasted no time getting cozy with Big Business and outlawing labour unions and similar "hives of Bolshevist villainy"... The Nazis' curiously archaic policies of pillaging were more the result of their quite questionable fiscal management practices (and sheer incompetence thereof) and the resulting shortages of funds and resources, and plain old abuses of largely unfettered power over your fellow man which tends to do bad things to anyone's head.
Once again vast sums of wealth were gotten from the victims of the Nazi demonization and extermination of the Jews. It is interesting to note how similar the propoganda is from the various times.
I'll leave the history of jew hating to others, they have been here forever. No such thing as anti-semitism. Not with us at least.
Watchman
10-16-2007, 01:43
Yeah, it's been kinda out of fashion in the West since '45 for some reason. Wasn't too unusual before that though.
The Wizard
10-16-2007, 17:30
I'll leave the history of jew hating to others, they have been here forever. No such thing as anti-semitism. Not with us at least.Eh? Holland has the dubious honor of having the highest death rate per deportation for victims of the Holocaust anywhere. And, no, that is hardly only attributable to them land-grabbin' Jerries. It had to do with widespread collaboration amongst state agencies, and, yes, Jewish (I'm thinking Jewish councils here) and Dutch civilian groups as well, often with full knowledge of what they were partaking in.
Eh? Holland has the dubious honor of having the highest death rate per deportation for victims of the Holocaust anywhere. And, no, that is hardly only attributable to them land-grabbin' Jerries. It had to do with widespread collaboration amongst state agencies, and, yes, Jewish (I'm thinking Jewish councils here) and Dutch civilian groups as well, often with full knowledge of what they were partaking in.
That is because one's religion was registered, made it pretty easy for the nazi's. Could have burned registers of course, but who sees something like the holocaust comming, nobody did. Of course a lot were caught, it's a small country and there were I dunno how many jews, a few hundred thousand? We also have the the most people helping/active resistance I believe, railroadstrike was quite something. Without calling any names, somewhere to the east people needed little encouragement from the nazi's.
The Wizard
10-17-2007, 18:23
That is because one's religion was registered, made it pretty easy for the nazi's. Could have burned registers of course, but who sees something like the holocaust comming, nobody did. Of course a lot were caught, it's a small country and there were I dunno how many jews, a few hundred thousand? We also have the the most people helping/active resistance I believe, railroadstrike was quite something. Without calling any names, somewhere to the east people needed little encouragement from the nazi's.There was a reason hundreds of thousands, if not millions of Jews were desperately trying to leave Europe after 1933, you know... the Holocaust was not something that just came dropping out of the fair blue Aryan sky above the Eagle's Nest one day to which Hitler and chums said, "Hey, that sounds fun! We'll do that today." In fact, relatives of mine that decided to cooperate with the Nazi's when deportations began were immediately told that they were going to be sent off to their deaths. Being the true blind shtetl Jews (and people under enormous duress) that they were, they didn't believe it. They were some of the first victims of the shoah.
Also, as the Dutch national historian, Loe de Jong, has amply proven, there was widespread collaboration throughout the government apparatus with the occupiers. Bureaucratic mindset, you see. Those in control may change, but those executing their policies don't and all that jazz. Them cars that brought people to Westerbork? NS cars, friend. And the people that were in them were found through registers provided by bureucrats as well as through the ignorant collaboration of the Jewish Council.
So yeah, the Dutch history with us Jews ain't exactly uncheckered, to say the very least.
Yeah you have a point, whatever is in charge will want to be in charge, that is kinda strange. But you cannot say the dutch are an enemy of the jews, the most you can say is that we didn't care. That lack of care is probably why jews always have been here, if it has to be ugly so be it but don't say it's evil. You are jewish, ever had any reason to defend being that? I doubt it, I have never in my life met someone with a gripe against jews and I have many peculiar aquintances.
The Wizard
10-17-2007, 22:45
I never said that all Dutchmen were enemies of my people. My point was that Holland, despite all the imagery of a liberal paradise for all humanity, is far removed from an uncheckered past concerning minorities within its borders. Holland and what remained of its bureaucratic apparatus was no exception in Europe during WW2 concerning the Holocaust.
Beefy187
10-18-2007, 09:16
Hitlers mistake was that he thought he was fighting the "Jews" but really.. he was being used by them.
Not all Germans are nazis, Not all chinese are commys and Not all Jews are evil. But some of them are. Holocaust are not a fact yet.. However eventhough some of the evidence are dodgy once and some peoples says there were no holocaust one thing we know for sure is the fact that Hitler was not a kind and gentle knight in shiny armour. He might have saved milions of Germans by giving them an job, he might have rebuilt Germanys confidence, he might have caught some of the members who plan a new world order. But at the same time he killed countless innocent people all over the world.
Thats me trying to be objective as possible. Sorry for going off topic a bit. If this is about Hitler Saving Europe from Jews (Jews done nothing wrong.. Its just this secret organization with lots of Jews in it...) he failed epically. Those lads got everything they wanted (Money.. more influence..) in the last two world wars and they want another one.
Look out Iran.. Your next on the hit list.
Watchman
10-18-2007, 09:49
Uh... we have like the minute bureaucratic records of the Nazi death industry, at least one surviving meeting record of the "final solution" order being handed down, and no shortage of witness accounts (including surviving inmates) and material evidence concerning the camps and other funny stuff themselves...
How do you mean, "not a fact" ? Millions of Jews and Gypsies and others the Nazi ideology found undesirable didn't just vanish into thin air from Europe.
I never said that all Dutchmen were enemies of my people. My point was that Holland, despite all the imagery of a liberal paradise for all humanity, is far removed from an uncheckered past concerning minorities within its borders. Holland and what remained of its bureaucratic apparatus was no exception in Europe during WW2 concerning the Holocaust.
Well the only party that was still allowed was the NSB, those officials were ranked highest and crap flows down, not really surprising. The real collaborators are of course Colijn and his buddies who decimated army funding when we kinda needed an army, allowing the germans to conquer us in 5 shamefull day. Loe de Jong was linked with the WRR I believe, and as we all know they can't be taken seriously. Puppets of the pvda, no scientists.
Louis VI the Fat
10-18-2007, 14:00
Hitlers mistake was that he thought he was fighting the "Jews" but really.. he was being used by them.
Not all Germans are nazis, Not all chinese are commys and Not all Jews are evil. But some of them are. Holocaust are not a fact yet.. However eventhough some of the evidence are dodgy once and some peoples says there were no holocaust one thing we know for sure is the fact that Hitler was not a kind and gentle knight in shiny armour. He might have saved milions of Germans by giving them an job, he might have rebuilt Germanys confidence, he might have caught some of the members who plan a new world order. But at the same time he killed countless innocent people all over the world.
Thats me trying to be objective as possible. Sorry for going off topic a bit. If this is about Hitler Saving Europe from Jews (Jews done nothing wrong.. Its just this secret organization with lots of Jews in it...) he failed epically. Those lads got everything they wanted (Money.. more influence..) in the last two world wars and they want another one.
Look out Iran.. Your next on the hit list.Are you on drugs? :inquisitive:
Tribesman
10-18-2007, 14:35
Are you on drugs?
Don't be silly Louis , look ....Beefy....its mad cow disease .
The Wizard
10-18-2007, 16:56
Are you on drugs? :inquisitive:God help me, I lol'd so hard :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
Ironside
10-18-2007, 17:20
he might have caught some of the members who plan a new world order. But at the same time he killed countless innocent people all over the world.
Care to enlighten us ignorant Orgah on what infomation you have gathered about this NWO? :book:
PanzerJaeger
10-21-2007, 04:53
It is actually pretty easy to shoot some rather glaring holes in the traditionally held beliefs about the Holocaust.
As for this thread... Thanks Baba Ga'on and Fragony for translation help. :daisy: Next time I'll look for different translations before posting. :oops:
AntiochusIII
10-22-2007, 06:35
It is actually pretty easy to shoot some rather glaring holes in the traditionally held beliefs about the Holocaust.And which might those be?
Watchman
10-22-2007, 08:21
And what exactly does "traditionally held beliefs about the Holocaust" cover, anyway ?
Tribesman
10-22-2007, 08:47
And which might those be?
And what exactly does "traditionally held beliefs about the Holocaust" cover, anyway ?
Well on those rather likeable sites available on the internet it goes something like ...
"people say Hitler gassed 6 million Jews at Auschwitz ..Hilter didn't gas 6 million Jews at Auschwitz...so the holocaust is a lie"
Tribesman
10-23-2007, 00:03
The threat to Iranian Jews must be getting worse .
Not only does the Israeli government andits agencies offer Iranian Jews 3 times the amount of cash that it offers to anyone else who makes Aliya , but the Chicago based International Fellowship of Christians and Jews has now doubled its cash payments for people who are willing to move from Iran to Israel .
It appears that some people really really don't want Jews in Iran .
Louis VI the Fat
10-23-2007, 00:16
Panzer is not a denier. He has some...peculiar ideas about fascism, but denial is not one of them.
the Chicago based International Fellowship of Christians and Jews has now doubled its cash payments for people who are willing to move from Iran to Israel .
It appears that some people really really don't want Jews in Iran .I am very much opposed to that. If they want to aid them, or fear for their future security, then fine. But as a policy, I'd rather they didn't. How many more Jewish communities must disappear? :shame:
Maybe the Israelis don't want any Jews in the fallout zone. :inquisitive:
The threat to Iranian Jews must be getting worse .
Not only does the Israeli government andits agencies offer Iranian Jews 3 times the amount of cash that it offers to anyone else who makes Aliya , but the Chicago based International Fellowship of Christians and Jews has now doubled its cash payments for people who are willing to move from Iran to Israel .
It appears that some people really really don't want Jews in Iran .
Appears to me that someone really wants Israeli's to be bad and Iranians to be good. I am not a fan of Israel but it's better then being a fan of regime of Iran imho.
Tribesman
10-23-2007, 15:59
Appears to me that someone really wants Israeli's to be bad and Iranians to be good.
Really ?
Who would that be then ?
I am not a fan of Israel but it's better then being a fan of regime of Iran imho.
Yes frag:dizzy2:
Really ?
Who would that be then ?
No idea who he is, nobody here does. But he does seem to take every chance he gets to bash Israel and never misses a chance to enlighten us about Iran and it's complexities, or any other nation that is anti-western. Good nose needs only half a fart.
PanzerJaeger
10-23-2007, 20:12
And which might those be?
Its all on the internet if you really want to waste your time. Most of it is crap but some people have made some strong arguements on numbers, responsibility and concrete proof. Needless to say, a good defence attourney would have plenty of material at his disposal.
Thats as far as I'll take it, as I said, denial arguements are rather easy to find. I have actually done a lot of research on the subject and I believe it happened the way in which it is represented today. Whether it was 6 million or 5.85 million doesn't change the intent from Hitler down through the regime.
As for tribes' latest... wiki has this to say:
Like other religious minorities in Iran Jews suffer from discrimination, particularly in the areas of employment, education, and housing. According to the U.S. Department of State, Jews may not occupy senior positions in the government or the military and are prevented from serving in the judiciary and security services and from becoming public school heads.[36]
The anti‑Israel policies of the Iranian government, along with a perception among radical Muslims that all Jewish citizens support the State of Israel, create a hostile atmosphere for the Jewish community. In 2004, many Iranian newspapers celebrated the one-hundredth anniversary of the publishing of the anti-Semitic forgery The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.[36] Jews are often the target of degrading caricatures in the Iranian press.[citation needed] Jewish leaders reportedly are reluctant to draw attention to official mistreatment of their community due to fear of government reprisal.[36]
However, in a rather unprecedented move, the sole Jewish member in the Iranian parliament, Maurice Motamed, strongly condemned exhibition of cartoons about the Holocaust that recently took place in Tehran, and he has also written a letter to Iran’s president questioning his denial of the Holocaust, calling it "a very big insult to Jews all around the world."[14]
The legal system discriminates against religious minorities, who receive lower awards than Muslims in injury and death lawsuits and incur stiffer punishments. In 2002, a law was passed that made the amount of "blood money" (diyeh) paid by a perpetrator for killing or wounding a Christian, Jew, or Zoroastrian man the same as it would be for killing or wounding a Muslim.[36]
Former president Khatami visits a Tehran Jewish center.With some exceptions, there is little restriction of or interference with the Jewish religious practice; however, education of Jewish children has become more difficult in recent years. The Iranian government reportedly allows Hebrew instruction, recognizing that it is necessary for Jewish religious practice. However, it strongly discourages the distribution of Hebrew texts, in practice making it difficult to teach the language. Moreover, the Iranian government has required that several Jewish schools remain open on Saturdays, the Jewish Sabbath, in conformity with the schedule of other schools in the school system. Since working or attending school on the Sabbath violates Jewish law, this requirement has made it impossible for observant Jews both to attend school and adhere to a fundamental tenet of their religion.[36]
Jewish citizens are permitted to obtain passports and to travel outside the country, but they often are denied the multiple-exit permits normally issued to other citizens. With the exception of certain business travelers, the authorities require Jewish persons to obtain clearance and pay additional fees before each trip abroad. The Iranian government is concerned about the emigration of Jewish citizens and permission generally is not granted for all members of a Jewish family to travel outside the country at the same time.[36]
In 2000, 10 of 13 Jews arrested in 1999 were convicted on charges of illegal contact with Israel, conspiracy to form an illegal organization, and recruiting agents. Along with two Muslim defendants, the 10 Jews received prison sentences ranging from 4 to 13 years. An appeals court subsequently overturned the convictions for forming an illegal organization and recruiting agents, but it upheld the convictions for illegal contacts with Israel with reduced sentences. One of the 10 was released in February 2001 and another in January 2002, both upon completion of their prison terms. Three additional prisoners were released before the end of their sentences in October 2002. In April 2003, it was announced that the last five were to be released. It is not clear if the eight who were released before the completion of their sentences were fully pardoned or were released provisionally.[36] Even though anti-Semitic acts are rare in Iran, the trial led to the rising of tensions against the Jewish community. [citation needed] During and shortly after the trial, Jewish businesses in Tehran and Shiraz were targets of vandalism and boycotts, and Jewish persons reportedly have suffered personal harassment and intimidation.[36]
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