Apparent minor EDU gaffes

[Watchman]

Going through the export_descr_unit.txt netted the following oddities:

- African elephants appear to have the defense scores for the crew and animal swapped. See:
;487
type african elephant forest
dictionary african_elephant_forest ; African Forest Elephants
---
stat_pri_armour 15, 20, 0, leather
stat_sec_armour 8, 15, leather

;129
type african elephant forest towered
dictionary african_elephant_forest_towered ; Towered African Forest Elephants
---
stat_pri_armour 15, 20, 0, leather
stat_sec_armour 10, 15, leather

;127
type african elephant bush
dictionary african_elephant_bush ; African Bush Elephants
---
stat_pri_armour 17, 22, 0, flesh
stat_sec_armour 10, 15, leatherOddly, these are even in the unit cards. For the sake of comparision, the Indian ones seem to have them in the proper order:;131
type indian elephant armored
dictionary indian_elephant_armored ; Armored Indian Elephants
---
stat_pri_armour 8, 12, 0, metal
stat_sec_armour 20, 22, flesh

;130
type indian elephant standard
dictionary indian_elephant_standard ; Indian Elephants
---
stat_pri_armour 8, 12, 0, metal
stat_sec_armour 16, 20, flesh

- Klerouchoi Agema Hippeis (#161) appear to be missing the AP attribute for their secondary kopis swords.

- Sarmatian nobles ("Ragon Sauromatae Uaezdaettae", #110) have weird values for their secondary weapon; attack delay 55 and lethality 0.33, when two-handed lances normally have either 180/0.38 (xyston) or 200/0.4 (kontos, which is presumably what these fellows use).

- The Dacian bodyguard unit (Phylakes Daoi, #427) seem to be missing their shield value (unless both the skin and unit card are actually out of date and they no longer carry one; I should probably actually check the matter in-game...). It is also possible they and/or the Tarabostes (#332) are missing AP attribute for the secondary weapon, depending on what kind of sword they in fact use; particularly given the oddly low base secondary attack value of the Phylakes (as above, I should actually check this...).

[mcantu]

edit

[Watchman]

The Geto-Thracian statting seems to be kinda bonkers here and there, now that I've looked at it more closely.

- The two Stratiotais get AP for their sicae; regular Komatai and Tarabostes don't. :inquisitive: As an aside that leaves the Thorakitai Stratiotai with the probably single highest attack value (12 base) one-handed weapon in the game, on top of which it also has a 0.13 lethality (compared to the 0.1(1) of kopis/falcata)...

- The Phylakes Daoi would appear to be wielding a Celtic-esque longsword rather than xiphos (for which they're statted - and are awfully lousy with too). Also, their formation values are the "loose" ones used for horse-archers and the like; an overlooked leftover from the Ktistai placeholder of earlier versions ? Also, their primary spear is statted as a two-handed kontos lance (delay 200 lethality 0.4), although one would assume the xyston values (180/0.38) also used by the similar one-handed lance of the Tarabostes were the correct ones.

- Peltastai Thrakioi have lethality 0.285 for their (one-handed) rhopmhaias; other users of the weapon or the nigh-identical falx (Rhopmhaiaphoroi, Drapanai, Bastarnoz) have 0.26.

- The upkeed cost of the Komatai Epilektoi is way too nutty low to be anything but some sort of mistake; the unit's recruitement price is a merry 2947 (to the 1028 of normal Komatai), but upkeep a piddling 168 (to the 257 of plain Komatai) - and these guys are save for slightly smaller unit size the betters of the Taxeis Triballoi (costs 2196/549) stat-wise.

- The Komatai Hippeis (or Mezenai as they're called in the description) have a minor model-sharing issue - namely, the Eleutheroi ones share the "slave" skin slot with the German Ridanz.

- Some Dacian infantry have nutty terrain effect values. Komatai, Sphendonitai and Toxotai all get a -2 in forest, Agrianai -1; this does not appear very credible for sylvan light infantry par excellence, doubly so as the rest of Geto-Thracian infantry rates from 0 to a 2-point bonus. The Stratiotais get a -2 as well, but that's presumably appropriate for phalanx spearmen - the German Speutagardaz get a -1 too.


Other stuff:

- The Liby-Phoenician cavalry (#493) are statted for a secondary xiphos sword (lethality 0.13), but actually appear to be using a kopis/falcata (which would be 0.1(1) and AP) like the other units they share the model with.

- The Saka Riders (#386) and Aorsi Nobles (#385) are statted for two-handed lances; their model - steppe_cavalry_aorsinobles_sakariders - has however been given the "fs_o_m_spearman" skeleton (one-handed mounted overhand spear) rather than the "fs_thp_m_spearman" that usually goes with it...

[Redmeth]

- The upkeed cost of the Komatai Epilektoi is way too nutty low to be anything but some sort of mistake; the unit's recruitement price is a merry 2947 (to the 1028 of normal Komatai), but upkeep a piddling 168 (to the 257 of plain Komatai)

That one slipped twice through the cracks, it's now fixed hopefully it will stay this time.

For the rest our stat guy tk-421 will take a look, he's currently very busy but will hopefully come back soon.

Thank you for your well documented report.

[Watchman]

I'm pedantic that way. Now I'm about to start working through the armour-value inconsistencies for my own use (there's a fair few cases where identically equipped units have as much as two-point difference, eg. Thureophoroi and Peltastai Thrakioi - and I don't even want to think as to why the latter ranks for "fast" skeletons while the meaningfully lighter-equipped Peltastai don't get even "semi_fast"...) - want a detailed list of those too...? :sweatdrop:

[different_13]

Watchman - IF you're going through all your edu's anyway, is there any way you could upload the 'corrected' versions, so we could implement them in our games?

If you can't, 's no biggie.
If you could give a brief explanation of what lethality and all those other stats are (this goes for anyone who knows), and what the general standard values are, I can go about fixing my own edu's.

[Watchman]

I'm planning to, actually, and in several orders of magnitude as I intend to update my old BI conversion for 1.0 eventually. I figured I'd first just fix the clear-cut things in the vanilla (eg. the missing AP attributes and so on) and have that as the "bare bones" version, then add in the BI features as the "BI lite" version, and finally go through the whole thing a third time putting in my purely personal takes on shield values, terrain bonuses and other more debatable stuff for a "full BI minimod" version.

As such a perfectly rational progression as each step can simply build on the previous one, but somewhat time-consuming... :sweatdrop:

[Ludens]

I'm planning to, actually, and in several orders of magnitude as I intend to update my old BI conversion for 1.0 eventually. I figured I'd first just fix the clear-cut things in the vanilla (eg. the missing AP attributes and so on) and have that as the "bare bones" version, then add in the BI features as the "BI lite" version, and finally go through the whole thing a third time putting in my purely personal takes on shield values, terrain bonuses and other more debatable stuff for a "full BI minimod" version.
Sounds good. But perhaps you should first check with the team whether they intend to release a hotfix anytime soon.

~:thumb:

[Watchman]

Eh, by that point all I'd need to do was to transfer most of the still relevant modifications as is. Actually, unless the hotfix were a seriously major one I'd more likely than not get off easier just copying the changes in the new files to the old modded ones...

Well, it worked well enough with the earlier versions anyway. :sweatdrop:

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Well, I'm pretty sure that our stater will read this thread soon and work upon the problems.

[Watchman]

That would certainly be nice, but odds are that won't be before I've made the alterations I intend to play my personal copy with - and I might as well share that if it interests others as well.

And everyone needs a hobby. Think of me as the kind of Warhammer player who spends more time painting his miniatures than playing with them... :sweatdrop:

...I really need to get outmore.

[MiniMe]

That would certainly be nice, but odds are that won't be before I've made the alterations I intend to play my personal copy with - and I might as well share that if it interests others as well.

And everyone needs a hobby. Think of me as the kind of Warhammer player who spends more time painting his miniatures than playing with them... :sweatdrop:

Might I ask of you to upload a copy of your EDU and descr_model_battle before you "enchance" them with BI battle formations? I have no love for shieldwall.



...I really need to get outmore.
How's the weather in Helsinki? There's no sense in going out here, rain and snow 24 hours

[Watchman]

The shieldwall's actually easy enough to get rid of with a global replace... but sure, making such a version isn't very difficult.

[QwertyMIDX]

For your use Watchman, Sica units shouldn't have AP.

[Watchman]

Ah, thanks. I was wondering about which way it should swing. No super-falcatas for the Itchy Dwarves then. :bow:

[Watchman]

The Nakhrarakan Aspet (;267; the Hai lance-and-mace catas) appear to have "half armoured horse" in the EDU, while the UI card shows a full cataphract one. I presume the latter would be the correct mount ?

[Watchman]

The model "iberian_missile_northern_skirmisher_siluri" (used by the Iberian Northern Skirmishers and Siluri Warbands) is kinda weird. It's been given "fs_o_f_spearman" for its melee skeleton, but both units are statted for swords or daggers...
Will have to test that once I get that far.

[Watchman]

A whole lot of overhand cavalry spears have either 160 or 0 attack delay; in fact, the ones with the correct delay (15, unless the paradigm has been changed) seem to be in the minority... :sweatdrop:

Easy to find by searching for ",0.15" though.

[Watchman]

Yep, the model "iberian_missile_northern_skirmisher_siluri" uses overhand spear for melee. The two units need restatting then I guess.

Also, the Indian Noble Hoplites do indeed use a sword for their primary weapon slot. Presumably they need to be restatted to the same pattern as the Baktrioi Agema and Agema Hellenon (ie. sword primary spear secondary).

Now where were those Syracusans...