Strong position, where to next?

[General-Winter]

I've been playing on Expert games for a while now, it's been on and off ad more than once i've had to restart, but I think i've made it past the hardest stage of the game.

This particular German campaign is on Expert and Early stage with Glorious Acheivements, on the XL MOD. it is now 1227.

After nearly 150 years of blood sweat and toil, the Holy Roman Empire is secure and dominates central Europe.

However, this is the first time I have gotten this far in Medieval TW, every other time i've either gotten smashed and too bloodied early on or had so many things stacked against me (For example in one of my more memorable games Pope Antonio IV Excomm. me and this brought down all of Europe upon my head. After the first turn of attacks I had lost three provinces and two more had a skeleton garrison left. Spies reported a Spanish Crusade coming my way :wall: )

Anyways, the Empire now stretches from Norway to Naples and Normandy to Greater Poland. I have completed the Holy Roman Empire and Drang Nach Osten.
Rome and Livonia are my most fortified Strongholds, Livonia from the army for Drang Nach Osten, Rome party from local troops and the remnants of the Italian campaign.

The Political Situation.
The Poles, Danes, Genoese, Venicians, and Aragonese have all been destroyed (I destroyed the entire list except for the Aragonese.) The Hungarians are rather peculiar. After an admirable tussle with the Byzantines I offered an alliance and jointly we smashed the Easterners in Hungary. I continued a march of scorched earth all the way to Constantinople, and raised the city to the ground (muhahahahaha). After several decades of relative peace the Hungarians threw EVERYTHING they had at Hungary, I retreated and then decided to let them have it. However I responded by assasinating their general and several spies.

Ever since the climactic battle of the Somme (:laugh4:) the French have been reduced to practically nothing, their armies were broken and the lands ripe, I held off due to excommunication-derived revolts and the French hung on by the skin of their teeth.

Somehow the English lost everything except for Wales and Wessex; massive rebel armies were holding Mercia and Northunbria. I raised some mercenaries and bribed the troops; took half of england then landed at Normandy.

The Byzantine Empire since my total destruction of Constantinople has been pretty quiet along the borders, I don't know anything past Greece.

The last Emperor who 'made' the Empire, that is he led troops and carried the day to what I think are now its final borders, recently died. he had 8 command, 9 dread, 9 influence 4 piety and 5 acumen. The currant Emperor is a young lad of 16 with 4 influence.
Crusaders and Crusading.

The Papacy has been reduced to the Papal States, I have graciously offered them terms time and again but they will not listen. I cannot launch Crusades or anything, and that is very annoying as I want to go kick some Arabian butt in the Holy Land. Around 1120 I sent a force to Antioch, amazingly it made it and the Kingdom of Antioch survived for nearly a decade. I could do nothing has Turkish and Egyptian attacks reduced to force to its steel core, then, in true Boromir fashion, disappeared. The final battle tallied at 128 men lost and nearly 600 Arabians killed.

I am Excommunicated at the moment from stealing French lands again, but how exactly do I start Crusades? I have several sitting at home and I know I can't be excomm. but do I have to be at peace with the Pope too? I've been 'at war' with the stubborn bastard for nearly a century; I havn;t attacked him and he still won't accept a cease-fire.

Two questions.

One, what exactly do I need politically for crusading.
Two, can anyone suggest new 'goals' to work for?

[Tratorix]

In my recent Genoese campaign, the pope wouldn't accept a ceasefire while I was excommed. When my king died, and the excomm was lifted, he accepted a ceasefire, then an alliance next turn. You need to wait for either your emporer or the pope to die so your excomm will be lifted so you can launch crusades. After the excomm is lifted, you should be able to make peace with the pope.

[Brandy Blue]

There's nothing to stop you from speeding things up by assassinating the Pope. If you don't think much of your new emeror, you can send him on a suicide mission. Another way would be to take over the Papal States, kill off the pope, and then withdraw from the Papal States and wait for a papal resurgence. (You can't crusade until the resurgence.) A dead pope or a dead emperor would wipe the slate clean.

[Prussian1]

My personal recipe given your Current State:

1. Invade the Papal States and drive His Holiness into the fortress. Be sure to remind him that you've changed the locks at Canossa and you'll be appointing your own bishops from now on, thank you very much.

2. Wait him out. Plant a garden and enjoy the view.

3. Take control of the Papal States.

4. Trash the place. Destroy every single building in the province. Write on the walls. Drink from the fingerbowls. Pretend you're Robert Plant at the Continental Hyatt. If you can work in some HRE groupies, so much the better.

5. Hike the taxes up to very high, pack up your army, and get out of Dodge.

6. The province will go rebel (surprise). Leave it that way

7. When the Pope eventually returns, he will return to a destroyed province with no economic base, no unit production facilities, and Dirty Limericks on the walls. This kind of pope can be pretty easily kept in line and has a weak army. Crusade to your hearts content.

Works for me every time.

[The Unknown Guy]

Do not wipe out the Pope. I have (or had, since I havent played it in a while and dont really have the time for the 80+ minutes battles I am getting in rows of three or four) a simmilar campaign, and all went well until I decided to wipe out the Pope. He had a huge trash reemergence that turned out very difficult to manage due to the slippery nature of their borders. Instead, set him on a cheap province (as stated above, razed papal states are a good choice, but if you can find some small and isolated province, even better) and forget about him.

In my campaign I simultaneously took the north of Spain (Navarre and Aragon) and Wessex. If you can secure the whole British Isles, you will have a very nice fall back position.

[Sensei Warrior]

Ahh the Pope and his wiley ways. I'll start out with a small review about how not to get excommed, and then move into various ways to be recommed.

To avoid excommunication from the Pope:
1. When the Pope chastises you for attacking another Catho Faction, wrap it up or back off. What I mean is, you want French lands, so you attack, let's say, Il de France, you win initial combat and the Provence is under seige. The Pope says withdraw troops, and be nice for 10 years. You have 2 options. The first one is abandon the Provence. The second one is attack the castle and win the Provence before the next year. In the end the French will be off limits for 10 years.

2. Don't go to war with the Pope. IIRC, its an auto excomm.

3. After that don't invade Catho lands, if you are at war with another faction, you can defend your lands but not take anymore of theirs until the Pope stops paying attention.

How to get recommed:

1. Death of your faction leader.

2. Death of Pope.

What does this all mean to you right now? Well, first you have to get recommed to Crusade. As others have said there are a number of ways to do this, either suicide your king, assasinate the Pope (you can try to burn him as a heretic as well), or the ever popular take over all his lands, raze all his lands, let them go rebel, and when he reemerges he'll be an easily controlled Pope.

Here is where I put in my 2 cents about the last one. Proceed very carefully in regardes to Pope reemergences, they have the capacity to get really messy. Every time the Pope reemerges, he is given more troops. That's good right? More troops = more $$ spent on troop maintenance = no more probs with the Pope, right? Not necessarily.

I have on more than one occassion had the Pope reemerge with huge stacks into a razed provence thinking he won't bother anyone. In reality what happened is the Pope went on a killing spree and took over the map. Used his uber troops to invade any rebel lands nearby him, wait for any faction to attack him (like the stupid Sicilians, and/or Italians) and then blast them into obscurity, too. It was insanity. It was a long time ago but I'm pretty sure at some point he was initiating attacks against Catho-Factions aka me even while those factions were at peace with them. I cant remember the details very well but I do remember them enough to say, "I will never ever do this plan of burn raze reemerge ever again".

That said once you get back into the Pope's good graces remember warnings are a gift that can be used to help you. Luckily the Pope has a one track mind, that is he one keeps track of one warning at a time. So you want lets say all the Spanish lands? Attack the Aragonese, when the Pope warns you off withdraw from their lands (thats right withdraw). Then proceed to attack Spain with impunity for the next 10 years. The Pope spends so much time making sure you aren't attacking the Argonese that he doesn't seem to notice you have taken over all the rest of the Iberian Peninsula.

I had a campaign where I used this tactic to engage in my own little Hundreds Years war with France, Spain, Aragon, Italy, and the HRE. I would attack one until warned off by the Pope, then attack the next one for 10 years until the Pope warned me off of them, then moved on to the next victim until they were all gone.

Phew, man that was a long post feel free to use, object and edit as you see fit.

[The Unknown Guy]

actually, excommunication is not much of a problem as soon as you get a few chained victories and raise your influence and general loyalty. I seldom get religious revolts due to excommunication.

I´ve found that, for the HRE, it´s a good idea, in general, to raise your emperor´s dread dramatically by any means possible. I began my game by bringing him into battles repeatedly and killing lots of people in and outside the battle (the last one when fighting rebels).

That way you get a very high dread monarch (and thus more loyal provinces and generals), which hopefully will bypass the HRE huge stats draining problem generation-to-generation.

It´s worth noting that at the start of the game HR emperors rarely have any significantly high stats, and the only ones you can max out by yourself are dread and command. Which are all you will ever need, in the other hand: the empire is huge, and can get big revenues as soon as you solve loyalty probems (by increasing dread) so acumen isn´t that important. Also, you´ll get more efficient princes to use as generals.

[General-Winter]

Thank's everyone for the tips.

Posting this from school on a free hour, and the memories of what exactly happened are sketchy, i'll be updating later, but the Pope has died from an illness. Joy of joys. Unfortunaetly I was beating on the Sicilians when the new Pope came to power. He warned me off, then being an idiot I thought it said wait two years before attacking, after two I sunk a Sicilian galley, now i'm Excomm. again. :wall: Pay attention.

No worries. I have a five valor assassin somewhere.

In other news the Cumons Novgorods and Lithuanians have launched attacks on my eastern borders. I would have killed everyone taller than a wagan's wheel in Eastern Europe but the Golden Horde has arrived. I think i'll send my good wishes to the Khanate. If only I could send several thousand pounds of Florins too. :no: In case you're wondering where i'm getting all this money, I am the sole trader within the North and Mediterranean Seas, as well as the Hanseatic League Established.

French have regained their strength and are pushing into Ile de France. Frogs. Not a problem. I'll just go Conan on them. It really is fun being the meanest sonuvabitch in the Valley of Death. :smash:

Unfortunaetly Unknown Guy my people are for whatever reason extremely touchy when it comes to being excomm. they usually rebel several years in a row and will not let up. I'm posting their head's on spikes but it appears that they have some particularily zealous preachers.

BTW What do I need to get the second tier of knights? I think it's Chivalric knights, but I'm not sure.

Like Feudal Knights, but High Period Knights.

[The Unknown Guy]

Unfortunatedly I modded my building order extensively (my current TW modification can be found in the "pocket mod" forum) so I don´t really know :/

Since you are now in a strong position you should consider building watch towers and other happyness buildings, and engage in a dread farming spree. Don´t stop killing prisioners until you get the maximum dread for it (5-6 points, I think: prisioner-killer3 + butcher) and nevermind morale bonuses. You dont want your emperor to fight those risky battles, that´s what your offspring´s for. Also, if you do this, you might manage to increase the dread level with each generation.


BTW: does anyone know if the battle timer can be altered to make battles shorter? really, it annoys me to have to stand through 90 minutes of reinforcement waves.

[Agent Miles]

Just a word of caution, I don’t think that there has ever been any evidence that dread does anything for a faction ruler, on or off the battlefield. It helps a governor rule a province where the majority of the population is not of your ruler’s belief. Also, if you butcher too many prisoners, your ruler will start making people unhappy in all of your provinces.

[Tratorix]

BTW What do I need to get the second tier of knights? I think it's Chivalric knights, but I'm not sure.

I believe you need a horse breeders guild, an armourers guild and a baronial court. If you have toulouse, you can train them there with +1 valour :idea2: . And yes, it is chivalric knights.

[The Unknown Guy]

you sure? I thought it affected pop. loyalty.

[caravel]

IIRC a faction leader's dread has a global effect in all of his provinces, much like acumen and piety does.

Killing a lot of prisoners gives a faction leader/heir/general the butcher line of vices. If the general is a governor, these vices actually improve the happiness in his province - though there is a particular one of these that also has a negative effect on troop morale in battle, I forget which. There is no happiness penalty from these vices.

[Agent Miles]

Sorry that I did not elaborate more. For butchering rebel prisoners, your ruler can get the “Rough Justice” and “Tough Justice” vices which cause a universal -10% to happiness (from the numerology thread, http://shoguntotalwar.yuku.com/topic/1701/t/Medieval-TotalWar-Numerology.html?page=2).
A governor’s ability to influence happiness in his province is determined by his piety (if the province has a majority of the population following your faction’s faith) or dread (if the majority of the pop. is not of your faith). Each appropriate icon raises happiness 5%. If, as you propose, the ruler’s dread were universal, it would still only affect those provinces where the population is “unfaithful”, for the short time before they convert. Further, a governor’s acumen has a +10% effect per icon, but a ruler’s acumen only +2% universal effect per icon, so a ruler’s dread might only have a +1% effect per icon.

[The Unknown Guy]

Does it affect civil war risk? AKA: maybe having your ruler have more dread than any possible ringleader reduces the chances of it emerging.

[Agent Miles]

I have no evidence of this (I don't get a lot of civil wars).

[The Unknown Guy]

In any event, high dread kings have high dread children who in turn can become awesome province governors. Hence keeping the HRE intact without rebellions.

[Agent Miles]

Well, I tried different governors last night, and I could not get any effect from piety at all, even in provinces with 100% my ruler's faith. I had read that piety took over from dread, but it does not. So, never mind.:shame:

[caravel]

Piety doesn't take over from dread. It effects provincial governors in that if they are governing a province that does not match their faction's religion, higher piety has a negative effect on that provinces happiness (loyalty).

For example if you're the Poles and have just taken Pagan Lithuania, then your ideal governor would be a very high dread and 0 piety general. Acumen is nothing more than a bonus at this stage as you're more interested in stopping it rebelling and avoiding haveing to keep a huge garrison there to hold it down. The preference should go to such a general rather than say a high acumen, average - high piety and low dread one. Try it for yourself.

I'm not sure where the actual effect of opposing pieties of governer and provincial religion actually kick in. It may be as simple as 50% or it may be more variable. I've also noticed that in your own high piety homeland provinces it's difficult to tell if a high piety general really has a positive effect due to how loyalty visually caps out at 200%. It may have an effect but it's effects may be irrelevant. Testing on a newly conquered same religion province is your best bet. You'd need generals with the same dread stats, no happiness affecting vices/virtues, but of course differing pieties to test them both as governor.

[General-Winter]

I managed to get a few hours in last nite, so an update is in order.

The Mongol Horde has somehow, irretrievably stalled. One of the first provinces they attacked was Vulga Bulgaria. The Cumans are there now. Granted, I only have one spy far out that east, but I was expecting the Horde to sweep all resistance before them. It has been about half-a dozen turns since they appeared; with something like the Horde I could conquer a province a turn. WTF? is the Khan retarded or something? Is this normal or what?

The border war between me and the Hungarians has flared up again. the Serbians beyond all rational thinking have joined in against me. My Seven Star General has now wiped them off the map except for a skeletal garrison in Croatia. The Hungarians booted me out with over 2000 men and are now besieging the castle. Some friends, huh?

Hungary has been taken. It was great. Left cavalry flank with Feudal Knights and Mercenary Steppe Horsemen turned the line of Joggaby into mist and broken corpses. Wheeled around and smashed into the commander's unit: Widdle Pwince Ata. Unfortunately the bastard did not die. He hacked his way solo through 160 knights and managed to flee. Should have died on the spot. Bastard.

The battle ended with about 430 casualties for me, around 850 killed and 237 captured. One question. One of my knight units smashed into a unit of Jobbagy as mop-up was commencing. That unit and three other Joggaby charged and promptly slaughtered about 60% of the unit in short order. The knights had 1 valor and level one armor. By all rights I think they should have butchered the lot. I wanted to take a loot at the unit statistics but I am unsure how to. How would I look at the game stats and/or mod them?

Has anyone else had this kind of thing with XL Joggaby? Mind you, it's 2.01. Er... Non-upgraded XL. (Is there a patch for XL yet?)

The Pope has died yet again from an illness! Yay! But I am still "at war" with him. And he STILL won't take a friggen peace treaty from my 4-star emissary. What. The. Bloody. Hell. I still can't Crusade either. Do I need to be at peace with him to crusade? I'm thinking yes but I wanted to confirm it. In any case i'm going to gut-shoot him and let him takethe Papal States when he re-emerges. Maybe the next Pope will have more common sense after an uprising.

By the by, as I am posting this War Pigs is playing on the radio. Reminds me of my Evil Land-Grabbing-Power-Hoarding Self. :egypt:

What movie was it that said: "It is good to be the king"?

[Tratorix]

You have to be at peace with the pope in order to crusade. If he's only in one province, I reccommend you attack, siege him into his castle(if you they don't retreat automatically, make sure you don't accidentally kill the pope). Besiege the castle until it will fall next turn, then pull out. You should be at peace with the pope then.

As for your question about knights, their main weapon is their charge. Since the Jobbagy caught your knights flat-footed and outnumbered them about 3 to 1, it makes sense that your knights lost. Remember, knights are powerful, but they're not invincible :bow:

[Agent Miles]

"It is good to be the king" Mel Brooks in "History of the World, Part 1".