View Full Version : This game isn\'t random at all!
Iced~Metal
09-09-2002, 14:39
I resent the way this game defeats reloading savegames..... I am about to have a civil war that effectively shreds my conquered provinces and *HUGE* army in half, so I reload a savegame to try and prevent it, but nothing works. This leads to the conclusion that events are not random, but scripted in advance and triggered.
Test it yourself. Get a province down to about 50% loyalty, or more if you wish. Save the game and end the turn. If there is a rebellion, reload the savegame, try again. There will always be a rebellion, it's not a roll of the dice, it is predetermined in advance that there will be a rebellion on 1XXX A.D. Now I'm screwed with my campaign. I tried to strip the soon-to-be rebellious Generals of their troops but they still rebel.
well...one time, i hit enter and my king died, no heirs.
reloaded. moved my king to a different province. hit enter - no death.
did my business, hit enter.
my king died. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/icons/icon8.gif
Iced~Metal
09-09-2002, 14:52
Death of Kings IS random, there is no preset age on when they will die, I notice that.
But these #$%^($&*^# events are scripted!
the Count of Flanders
09-09-2002, 14:57
a computer is a didgital machine and a digital machine can never create a random sequence of numbers. There probably is a list of numbers that comes close to a random list but it is still sequential. Therefore the next "random roll" is always determined by the previous ones (= sequential). So if you save your game the progress in the list is probably also saved so your next random roll is always the same. Try doing something else random like assasinating someone to move up in the list.
This is how it most likely works though.
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Arkatreides
09-09-2002, 15:02
Yes, if you save and load you WILL get the same results as the seed for the random number generators is store. It is the same thing they used in CIV 3 to make the goody hut save and reload trick not work anymore. Personally I like it, since it is actually more random than before (i.e. without us humans influencing the rolls)
But if you really want things to change, do a few other things before you hit next turn. Sometimes trying an assassination works, or just moving some units about.
theNiceOne
09-09-2002, 15:11
Arkatreides, CIV3 is a good analogy. There too many complained that the game was not random because they didn't understand how a computer pseudo random number generator (PRNG) works.
Yes, the numbers are predeterminated just like the order of the cards are predeterminated after having shuffled them when you play solitaire. If you play solitaire and don't like the card you just have drawn, it won't help you to put it back on top of the deck and then draw it again - it will always be the same card.
It doesn't mean that the one who invented solitaire scripted the game to always come up with this card at the same time though...
Executor
09-09-2002, 18:12
If you want to change events, attack another faction. The computer will probably need to make some random decision, moving the seed along and changing other future events.
Well i also had the above. King died then no heirs thus (and this is obvious!) revolution. Now i tried reloading in seeing if i could prevent my king from dying (mind you he was already 50+). My king seemed to die because of a failed attack i did. If i didn't do this attack (or made sure i won), the king wouldn't die at that moment http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif (seems the king easily gets a heard attack if something goes wrong in his empire). Ofcourse the king died a few years later anyway (no matter loading/retrying), but then again that is life i guess. Luckely only 4 out of 18 countries revolted, and i could all bribe em back http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
Seamus รณ Cruadhlaoic
09-09-2002, 19:05
Scripted/unscripted....random/schmandom. Cracks me up: what I do in 1214 effects what happens in 1252, AS IT SHOULD. Fabulous feature IMO, more closely resembling the consequences (intended and otherwise) of real life. The thing that made me literally laugh -out-loud was the difference in my king's profile over 40 years: beginning with high piety, some dread and acumen, later with no piety, indecisiveness and a couple skeletons in his closet (just like me http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif), all based on the decisions I'd made.
Arkatreides
09-09-2002, 19:12
Hehe ... go and read up on chaos theory http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
ToranagaSama
09-09-2002, 19:41
Quote Originally posted by Iced~Metal:
Test it yourself. Get a province down to about 50% loyalty, or more if you wish. Save the game and end the turn. If there is a rebellion, reload the savegame, try again. There will always be a rebellion, it's not a roll of the dice, it is predetermined in advance that there will be a rebellion on 1XXX A.D. Now I'm screwed with my campaign. I tried to strip the soon-to-be rebellious Generals of their troops but they still rebel.[/QUOTE]
Are you serious?? Infukincredible!
You've got 50% Loyalty!!! What the heck is RANDOM about that???
At 50 Loyalty you WILL have Rebellion. How is reloading going to change that 50?? OR, the fact that you allowed that province to stay at a Loyalty of LESS than 150 for SEVERAL turns to get to 50??
Note, Rebellions/Respawning ARE NOT random events!! They are the Sum (result) of "Hard-Coded" Formulated Equations based upon variables, such as present and PAST Loyalty ratings, in addition to other Factors respresented by, among others, Vices and Virtures, Influence, Province characteristics, etc.
Presuming most of you passed Algebra:
X + Y - Z x (AxB/C) = REBELLION!
Nothing random just the sum of variables that have a predictable result.
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[This message has been edited by ToranagaSama (edited 09-09-2002).]
MagyarKhans Cham
09-09-2002, 19:58
trying to escape your own bad decisions by reloading a saved game?
Arkatreides
09-09-2002, 20:26
Life isn't random, get over it! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
Quote Originally posted by ToranagaSama:
Are you serious?? Infukincredible!
You've got 50% Loyalty!!! What the heck is RANDOM about that???
At 50 Loyalty you WILL have Rebellion. How is reloading going to change that 50?? OR, the fact that you allowed that province to stay at a Loyalty of LESS than 150 for SEVERAL turns to get to 50??
Note, Rebellions/Respawning ARE NOT random events!! They are the Sum (result) of "Hard-Coded" Formulated Equations based upon variables, such as present and PAST Loyalty ratings, in addition to other Factors respresented by, among others, Vices and Virtures, Influence, Province characteristics, etc.
Presuming most of you passed Algebra:
X + Y - Z x (AxB/C) = REBELLION!
Nothing random just the sum of variables that have a predictable result.
[This message has been edited by ToranagaSama (edited 09-09-2002).][/QUOTE]
Actually the chance of rebellion is 50% if loyalty is 50% so on average should happen 50% of time, but in the case of Iced Metal it's not a rebellion but a civil war caused by low loyalty generals.
Changing loyalty of your generals before ending the turn is the only way to stop this. Do you have princesses? Marry them off? Disband the really low loyalty generals and see what happens.
A way to avoid this situation in future is to make sure your kings influence is high. To achieve this, send him into battle.
Once his influence is up, you produce very loyal generals, at least that's what I am finding.
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