Please Stop the..Rebellion/Respawning...Whinning!

[ToranagaSama]

To "most" everyone btching about the Rebel/Respawn stacks, who refuse to accept that others aren't having the same experience; and/or simply won't heed or may be to "impatient" to IMPLEMENT one or more proper strategies to deal with Loyalty. It might help to readddd the manual and COMPREHEND!

Quote: (p.4, MTW manual, last paragraph)

"If you've played Shogun: Total War, then be prepared for a few surprises. Medieval: Total War might look like its cousin, but it does seemingly familiar things in new and exiciting ways. Strategies and tactics that worked in Shogun: Total War can sometimes lead to defeat here...."

[Emphasis Added]

Wanna see a receipe for disaster? Check this post out, "Proof that rebellions are FUBAR":
http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/Forum7/HTML/001411.html

This guy Mu, who, I believe has only had the game for 2 or 3 days, is hilarious!

His problem, plain and simple, is that he's a complete, total and absolute, RUSHER.

He thinks he's playing Shogun rather than MTW. Doesn't appear he's adjusted his tactics to any degree whatsoever!

To illustrate, this guy takes England in the first THREE! turns (incredible). Yes, its possible to do, BUT it is completely and wholly IMPOSSIBLE to take and "secure" England in the first 3 turns. You do not start with the number of troops necessary to do so and you can not acquire them in so short a time---PERIOD!

Maybe it wasn't the first 3 turns, but that's the way I took it. Doesn't really matter as the point is you cannot RUSH your way through MTW. (Or if its possible, then the price to pay is the 899 stacks---deal with it!)

MTW will make you pay for Rushing, the Developers, designed it that way! I, for one, appreciate that they have done so. Its much more satisfying to "OUT THINK" the AI, rather than Out Rush it! Which simply requires one to find the quirks/deficiences in the AI's build routine(s) and exploit it/them.

Mu: "Being a Shoggy vet i have perfected the blitz tactic so it wasn't hard."

Yeah, too bad he actually lost the game.

The challenge that MTW's Strategic portion is to conquer the game w/o rebellions and respawnings.

What? Did you think CA developed the economy (and ships) to what? just give you something to do? No, it was to slow your A down!

Why stacks w. such incredibly large numbers (899 is the largest I've seen or ever want to see)? What was CA thinking? Do you folks think this was unintentional? Some error?

NO! It, apparently, was intended as further incentive to SLOW DOWN!! Alexander took a lifetime to conquer the world, Rome took 1000 years. Some MTWers wanna do it in 50 turns.

Mu, and his like, think they are beating the game, that they are playing phenomenally well, and then "The Game" robs them of that chemical release called "winning".

Something's FUBAR, but it ain't MTW!!!

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[ToranagaSama, makes a made dash to his castle, closes the gates behind him and heads to the battlements---He is about to be under siege. Hopefully, my allies will come to my relief. No matter, I've got enough water and supplies to last til Total War 3.]

[johnmcd]

I still think it needs to be slowed down further though. More defensive advantages (free pesants/ milita and command points maybe) and perhaps desertion of troops in disloyal provinces.

You can still blitz, just a little more slowly than Mu wants to.

[Arkatreides]

I totally agree. Being a Shogun vet, the rebellions happened to me once, in my first game. I came rushing here crying WTF! and BUG!, but then was told that indeed it was a feature. I accepted it and worked around it and you know what: No more massive rebellions since (I'm into my 5th full campaign now). Why? Because it go slowly. Sometimes the rebellions still happen like when I needed all my troops from Antioch for a quick skirmish back in Central Europe, but that's fine, after all being an unwashed invading crusader, I don't expect the people there to be loyal, not even after 50 years. So that's fine, I except it. My own fault really.

If I want to 'rush', I do it properly. And by that I mean historically properly. I CAN rush all the way from Britain to Constantinople but I mustn't expect to hold the provinces. But a good pillage and burn works VERY well and that's how it should be. I don't think if the mongols had planned on 'keeping' the places they raided they would have been very successful in doing so.

[Mu]

you are missing the point of my thread.

yes i rush and i get rebellions, but then i build up spies, churches, garrisons and all that stuff in massive numbers and still get rebellions.

specifically the rebellion in a province with a garrison of 3000 troops and castle, church, 200% loyalty, 100% catholic, spy and bishop present.

[Murmandamus]

I had a game last < 10 rounds due to a rebellion. Starting as Danes (only 1 province) I invaded Sweden as it only had a couple hundred troops. Armies were fairly evenly matched but the enemy abandoned the province. 2 rounds later the province rebelled giving it an army of ~1200. A bit large for so early in the game imo. I abandoned the province only to have them invade the very next round wiping me out.

I see reviews stating that the old Shogun tactic of turtling in, building up an army wouldn't work in MTW. Obviously it's still needed in a few places. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[Xiahou]

What I really found silly was how he complained about how easy it is to blitz and then complains in the next thread about rebellions. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif

[Sultan]

Quote Originally posted by Mu:

specifically the rebellion in a province with a garrison of 3000 troops and castle, church, 200% loyalty, 100% catholic, spy and bishop present.[/QUOTE]

You have a save game showing this cause it sure doesnt jive with anything that I have seen so far out of the 5 camps I have finished so far.

[andrewt]

Yeah, blitzing won't work. That's why I'm very reluctant to start a game in the late period. Looks kinda impossible unless you go with glorious achivements or take the 60% minor victory. Anybody ever conquer the entire Europe in that short a time? My English game took around 200 years on normal early and I was helped by the relative lack of castles at first and my huge tech advantage late in the game. Those advantages are going to be gone for late period, however.

[ToranagaSama]

Quote Originally posted by Mu:
you are missing the point of my thread.

yes i rush and i get rebellions, but then i build up spies, churches, garrisons and all that stuff in massive numbers and still get rebellions.

specifically the rebellion in a province with a garrison of 3000 troops and castle, church, 200% loyalty, 100% catholic, spy and bishop present.[/QUOTE]

No! I believe your missing the point.

Example: Say you take (numbers are for arugments sake), 1000 troops in province A, attack and conquer province B. Garrison w. a unit or two; 1-2 turns later move those same troops attack and conquer province C; 1-2 turns later garrison C with a unit or two and attack and conquer province D.

The above is a receipe for rebellions!

1) Even if you immediately upon conquering start building castles and subsequent improvements along with the units consequent to those improvements (bishops, spies, etc.), in the 6 to 8 (or even 10 moves that Murmandamus suggests): It is IMPOSSIBLE to produce sufficient "Agents" to effectively avert ANY rebellion!!!!

2) Considering the above, the ONLY tactic would be: Build as many troops as your "Starting" buildings will allow (This of course, mostly, means Peasants) in the 6-8 turns and distribute them evenly thru-out the provinces; Take the (6-8 turns from the start) remaining (due to losses and garrisoning) 500-600 troops of the original 1000 stack and distribute them evenly, as well, among the conquered provinces.

Now, just guessing (somebody elese do the math), you've got approximately 300-400 troops in each of 3 "conquered" provinces after 6-8 turns (or even 10 turns).

SORRY---that just ain't gonna cover it (most especially on Hard)!!!

How and Why?

I don't have hard figures (but I'll investigate upon returning to my game), but for argument's sake I'll use what experience dictates s/b fairly close to accurate.

Presuming one is a good to great general,

1st Turn:

Conquer province B with 1000 troops and lose say 100. 900 troops in B = 200 Loyalty.

2nd Turn:

Garisson B with 200 troops (removing 700 troops). 200 remaining troops in B = 150 Loyalty (and dropping!!!)

Attack/conquer province C w. 700 troops, less 100 in losses = 600 troops in C = Loyalty 180.

Garrison C w. 200 troops (removing 400) = Loyalty 120 (and dropping!!!).

3rd Turn:

Attack/conquer province D w. 400 troops less 100 in losses = 300 troops in D = 150 Loyalty.

Province B w. 200 troops = Loyalty 120 (and dropping!!!).

4th Turn:

Province B w. 200 troops = Loyalty below 100 = REBELLION!

Province C w. 200 troops = Loyalty below 100 = REBELLION!

Province D w. 300 troops = Loyalty below 120 = REBELLION!
(In this case "cumulative" affects of rebellion in B and C must be considered.)

The above is a VERY hard example of what RUSHING will result, but even making the scenario more probably will have similar results:
Adding an additional turn after the 1st Turn will change things apprciably little. Adding a supply of 100 "Support" troops at each additional turn, results in 300 additional troops. Still it won't be enough to maintain Loyalty at 200 (to certainly avoid rebellions) in each province; or to maintain Loyaly at 150-180 (fair chance at avoiding rebellions with a continuing supply of "Support" troops)

Again, adding an additional 100 troops to each province B, C and D, as a consequence of "slowing down" and waiting an additional turn at each step above might, at best, result in an approximate 20 - 30 additionaly Loyalty points. Not enought to avert rebellion. Rebellion should ensure by turns 7 and/or 8 (or make it a full 10 turns) in ALL conquered provinces, B, C and D. Won't matter what Agents or Buildings you manager to accomplish. You may even be a very good micromanager and possbily push the above scenario out to "15" turns (meaning probably actually producing Bishops/Spies. But certainly not enough to do ANY real good. Possibly B could be saved. Rebllion in C and D. Your a VERY good micromanager.)

Play with the above Scenario, its a good point of Argument if not absolutely accurate.

Lastly, yes 899+ rebel stacks are INCREDIBLE to behold, but think of it as the Developers':

Big RED STOP Sign ---> Slow down and Play the Freaking (or should that be Friggin) game the way we designed it, we put a lot of effort into this S.!!!!

Quote
specifically the rebellion in a province with a garrison of 3000 troops and castle, church, 200% loyalty, 100% catholic, spy and bishop present.
[/QUOTE]
Sounds HIGHLY improbable, but then S. can go to hell in ONE turn. Question, what did you do the NEXT turn???
Quote
yes i rush and i get rebellions, but then i build up spies, churches, garrisons and all that stuff in massive numbers and still get rebellions.
[/QUOTE]

Keywords: "...but then...." I hope you now see, that this doesn't have a chance of working. It's like bailing water in a sinking boat, in the middle of a lake. You can't bail fast enough; and you can't bail and row at the same time!!!! (hehehe).

Now Childdren (mantra):
...Build Economy, Build Infrastructure, Then Attack...Repeat
...Build Economy, Build Infrastructure, Then Attack...Repeat
...Build Economy, Build Infrastructure, Then Attack...Repeat

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Dude, don't mean to single you out or anything, yours just was the best example as you were quite articulate in describing your scenario. Thanks!

[ToranagaSama]

One additional note:

To avert rebellion/respawning:

Loyalty MUST be maintain at 200 for a good number of turns. You cannot miss a single turn. How many turns? You'll have to experiment on your own. In my experience 5-10 turns "should" do it, but it VARIES per province and, I believe, circumstance and situation affect the required number of turns.

Ex.: 1000 troops, conquered province, 200 Loyalty. Wait 3 turns, remove 100 troops (maybe more whatever). Result, Loyalty 190. Put troops back, Loyalty 200, wait some more, repeat. Or, often times, removing troops resulting in a Loyalty drop, if you still have enough remaining troops, Loyalty will slowly rise.

Situation MUST be monitored upon EACH turn; and, if, AFTER removing troops, upon the subsequent turn Loyalty remains STABLE Loyalty 200, remove troops, Loyalty 180, Turn, stable Loyalty 180. Loyalty s/rise in a turn or two.

[candidgamera]

Everybodies remembering in all this to turn your tax rate way down in the new lands. My test and proceedure has been so far: if you can turn your taxes to high and still keep 200 loyalty, you are out the woods somewhat on rebellion. Keep mine on just high not very high to act as a buffer for the unexpected. Some like Norway, don't try to get much out of anyway - they seem to be hardcases.

From reading the guide churches (like temples in Civ) help, too.

Put me in the non rush camp, don't chug wine either. My campaigns were long in STW as well.

Actually like the way its never over really, much less cut and dried.