phalanxes?

[ZinedineZidane]

howcome they NEVER get broken fromt he front? =( i remember in vanilla rtw where the phalanx could actually be broken through in the front sometimes, i mean in all those city battles the phalanxes will always win because its impossible to break through it in the front =(, even with 3000 units going against one phalanx, i do this all the time as the greeks since all the phalanxes need to due is one unit covers each side and u'll hold off 2 armies if u want to

[Megas Pyrrhos]

Well, you can break through it by ordering your units to a point just behind the phalanx units, thereby taking heavy losses for your own units trying to break through, but will eventually manage to make it past the pikes and then can commence attacking the pikemen directly.

[Caveira]

I haven't tested this with 1.0, but in 0.81, hoplites had annoying ability to break trough almost any formation, almost as if in BI-Shieldwall (though not as suicidal IIRC). However, I'm not sure if this was with primary or secondary attack.

[ZinedineZidane]

oh id like to mention that the 'naked' skirmishers[the ones with like no armour like numidians] have too much melee attack maybe?i sent a TWO THOUSAND$ worth equite unit to go kill it and it owned my equites without even losing like 20 guys, and yes im on medium difficulty

[Vorian]

howcome they NEVER get broken fromt he front? =( i remember in vanilla rtw where the phalanx could actually be broken through in the front sometimes, i mean in all those city battles the phalanxes will always win because its impossible to break through it in the front =(, even with 3000 units going against one phalanx, i do this all the time as the greeks since all the phalanxes need to due is one unit covers each side and u'll hold off 2 armies if u want to


Well a narrow road would be perfect for defence, provided the enemy can't attack from behind. Try to pass through those pikes. Just can't do it unless you have suicidal men throwing themselves on them. In reality you would have soldiers climbing on roofs and throwing bricks, others burning houses, etc not to mention that a real city isn't so well designed. However you don't have this option in RTW making the phalanxes ideal and almost undefeatable in sieges.

A tip: Fire arrows on them, attack with numerous soldiers and take another route with cavalry to engage from behind. No other way works.

[johhny-turbo]

oh id like to mention that the 'naked' skirmishers[the ones with like no armour like numidians] have too much melee attack maybe?i sent a TWO THOUSAND$ worth equite unit to go kill it and it owned my equites without even losing like 20 guys, and yes im on medium difficulty
That's because equites and rather all Roman calvalry are pretty crappy. If you want to run them down try using mercenary or auxilia calvalry

Also the naked guys have two hitpoints each (to simulate the fact that they took pain reliving drugs before battle) so you'll need to "kill" them twice.

[ZinedineZidane]

the equites in reality werent that crappy, their job was to chase down skirmishers, i understand if they cant beat that misthorpori theuropori [the one with a bunch of armour] ones, but numidian skirmishers and hellenic skirmishers with no armour they should be able to beat

[Bootsiuv]

That's why I always bring assloads of missile troops. Only a few fall with each volley....but they'll break after a few thousand arrows and a few hundred javelins. Sieges suck, you have to be patient and micromanage.

[konny]

That's why I always bring assloads of missile troops.

Exactly.

If you are around with the Romans - I suppose you do, because of the Equites - a line of two or three units Hastati will make mincemeat out of the nudists. When the Hastati still have both pila ready, they sometimes can rout them without drawing with gladii.


On your siege problem: A phalanx was made to fight off frontal assaults. So, if can't breake them frontal in EB, but you could in RTW, the team of EB did something right that the team of RTW did wrong (what is actually the nature of EB).

[ZinedineZidane]

i realize a phalanx was made to do just that, but its virtually IMPOSSIBLE to get thru it, unless u try to run over it

[Watchman]

That's kind of the whole point isn't it ? The pike wall being near-impenetrable. Back in the Middle Ages commanders had to throw in dismounted knights (ie. the exact best-trained and -equipped infantry available) to make an impression, should they lack pikes of their own...

[Bootsiuv]

Well, a large grouping of hundreds of sharp metal points might be difficult to walk through, don't ya think.

Your arguing because the phalanxes aren't breaking from the front in a city street. Barring things like throwing heavy objects/nasty waste on top of them, which R:TW simply doesn't represent, a PHALANX WAS NEARLY IMPENETRABLE FROM THE FRONT IN REALITY.

So I don't understand what you're complaining about, really. :no: They're doing what they're supposed to do. :shrug:

[johhny-turbo]

You could force a phalanx to break from the front. The best way is to er, attack it with a superior phalanx troop.Levy phalanxes aren't going to stand up against better trained phalanxes and might break in the face of truly overwhelming numbers or something like elephants.

[antisocialmunky]

The only realy way of beating a defending, non-glitching phalanx from the front is to use a comparable phalanx in a square formation and order it to attack which will result in them walking through the formation. At this point, you should take them out of phalanx and order them to attack the enemy.

The Koinon and Carthaginian Elite Phalanxes can do this fairly easily.

[Bellum]

In real life, long wooden sticks will break after extended killing.

[Spoofa]

That's why we carry spares.

[Sarcasm]

Does no one run hoplites through the pikes? You can *easily* break their frontage, if you don't mind some casualties to put a hole in their formation.

[Spoofa]

i use Phalangities mainly, so I dont have that issue of "How am i going to get through this."


what a perfect way to fix the problem..... Phalangitai vs Phalangitai.... hmm...

[Bootsiuv]

Does no one run hoplites through the pikes? You can *easily* break their frontage, if you don't mind some casualties to put a hole in their formation.


A good point....almost any unit can push there way through if you click on an area behind the phalanx. The unit that does the pushing will likely be decimated, but following through with Heavy Cavalry = :smash:

[NeoSpartan]

Fellas.... in what world do you think a man is going to mad dash through at 5 pointy sicks directly in front of him????

Listen, a pike phalanks is nearly unbreakable in a frontal assult standing in flat ground. Pikes had the tendency to "push" people back.
If you want to break a phalanks in a city, then... u save about 3K-4K and u have ur general BUY A PEZ MERC!!! OR get urself an elephant, catapult, mad dash ur heavy cavarly and take some REALLY big losses. Or better yet, FORCE them to come out in the open, and pin then between 2 of ur units.... use ur brain guys this ain't Vanilla

In RTW, and in the later versions of XGM you had that ability because they gave high unit mass to some infantry.

Remember.... Nobody ever broke through an unbroken line of phalanxes at the ready.

[Sarcasm]

Or just get a unit with a high defence rating and push them through the pikes, wait for them to get in between, then attack them. Support adequately, roll the rest of the line. Serve with parsley.

[paullus]

I've put Samnite heavies, Hellenic hoplitai, Getic drapanai, and Mak hypaspistai through the front of pike formations. Getting a good charge is very important, and then its just a matter of a few guys getting into the formation and chopping a hole. It can happen, its just not a dependable method, nor does it usually work without taking some heavy casualties.

[NeoSpartan]

I've put Samnite heavies, Hellenic hoplitai, Getic drapanai, and Mak hypaspistai through the front of pike formations. Getting a good charge is very important, and then its just a matter of a few guys getting into the formation and chopping a hole. It can happen, its just not a dependable method, nor does it usually work without taking some heavy casualties.

and trowing away a whole lot of $$$ too.... and weakning ur flanks.....

[Bootsiuv]

... roll the rest of the line. Serve with parsley.

:laugh4:

Mmmmm, phalanxeseses (:dizzy2:) make for a good stew. :yes:

[AntiochusIII]

I do believe I remembered Machiavelli said something about the Spanish sending men with bucklers (I presume he meant swordsmen of some kind) to engage Swiss pikemen in the Italian Wars, no? Something about how they just duck *below* the pike to reach the man. :laugh4:

Though to be honest that doesn't sound that believable. Moreover this thread's main complaint is essentially that the phalanx is doing what it does best quite successfully, holding the line with long pointy sticks. :inquisitive:

[Cheexsta]

IIRC, Polybius does mention that the Roman soldiers found it extremely hard to do any kind of damage to a Macedonian phalanx's front. They tried hacking off the spearhead, but when you have 9 other spearheads jabbing at each Roman soldier (though obviously they couldn't all be brought to bear at once), it makes such a move difficult. The Romans only punctured the lines where the Macedonian soldiers were disorganised and hadn't linked up properly. So it makes perfect sense that you can't really get through a phalanx front without using the aforementioned exploit/tactic.

Though, judging by the reasonably low casualties the Romans sustained, the phalangites didn't seem to kill enemies from the front so much as prevent the enemy from reaching their own lines (presumeably why they didn't have pikes breaking and causing problems). I noticed this while playing as the Seleukids that the enemy hoplites weren't taking many casualties, but very few were actually able to attack back. When the enemy cavalry managed to hit me from the sides, though, I was in all sorts of trouble...

[Kurulham]

I do believe I remembered Machiavelli said something about the Spanish sending men with bucklers (I presume he meant swordsmen of some kind) to engage Swiss pikemen in the Italian Wars, no? Something about how they just duck *below* the pike to reach the man. :laugh4:

Though to be honest that doesn't sound that believable. Moreover this thread's main complaint is essentially that the phalanx is doing what it does best quite successfully, holding the line with long pointy sticks. :inquisitive:
This sounds familiar.

Oh, right - Galatikoi Kluddolon! :beam: Though a few early unpleasant experiences soon disabused me of that notion.

[JeffBag]

If you have plenty of spare units, which you should since you are seiging anyway, just take one unit in a squarish formation, put it on defensive and just attack the pikes. Once they get exhausted, get a second unit to double click move behind those pikes. They barely take casaulties and they really rip into all those pikes.

[Watchman]

The Spanish sword-and-buckler men were used as a support troop for the Spanish pikemen though. Others used Doppelsoldners with halberds and two-handed swords for the same purpose - hacking a breach in the enemy pike block to break the deadlock of the "push of pike".
And fortress assault and suchlike where pikes weren't of much use, of course.

Helmet and cuirass were pretty much the minimum required armour, and more was heartily recommended.

Also, at least once dismounted Burgundian knights wielding their heavy lances as spears gave Swiss pikemen serious trouble from the front; they got later hit in the flank by the halberdiers (who still by that point formed a distinct unit) and rolled up though.

[Little Legioner]

:oops:

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Perhaps the Flying Spaghetti Monster has hidden what you're looking for.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Wrong smiley, mate: :404:

[Geoffrey S]

What I used to do was use reasonably heavy infantry units on a particular part of the line, with a narrow frontage. If you focus three such units on one phalanx unit it's very possible to break through the pikes, cause a rout, and send more infantry straight through the enemy line.

[Pharnakes]

I don't know about anyone else, but I have never yet seen the AI block every possible approach route with pikes, so whats the problem?

The AI actualy forcing you to think intelgently for once?

[ZinedineZidane]

nah, the ai doesnt do that much actually, but i can do it and im invincible against the comp, and the most painful part is if im facing like 5000 men and blocking every possible route, the 5000 men wont even die in the battle time, it'll freaking expire since phalanxes take 1 minute to kill just 1 man =(

[Watchman]

Can't exactly blame the other guys for not helpfully impaling themselves on pikes, now can you ? :beam:

[NeoSpartan]

nah, the ai doesnt do that much actually, but i can do it and im invincible against the comp, and the most painful part is if im facing like 5000 men and blocking every possible route, the 5000 men wont even die in the battle time, it'll freaking expire since phalanxes take 1 minute to kill just 1 man =(

true...... which is why u gotta f.l.a.n.k :yes: