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Banquo's Ghost
10-17-2007, 14:37
The UK Home Office is not noted for its sympathy to immigration, but it has just published a rather interesting study on the contribution of the "vast hordes of scroungers." Reported by the Indy (http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/article3067229.ece).

The wriggling by ministers and opposition politicians (both of whom like the populist platform demonising immigrants) is a wonder to behold.

Home Office: migrants work harder, earn more and pay more tax than Britons

By Nigel Morris, Home Affairs Correspondent
Published: 17 October 2007

Migrant workers contributed £6 billion to the country's economic growth last year and earned higher wages than their British counterparts, Home Office figures revealed yesterday.

The study concluded that new arrivals were harder-working, brought sought-after skills and paid more in tax than they used in public services.

The population rose by 189,000 last year, with 574,000 migrants arriving and 385,000 people leaving. The steady increase over the last decade has led to warnings that the country cannot cope with the growth. But the Government figures suggested migration was throwing a life-line to an economy suffering skills shortages and struggling to support a growing bill for pensions.

It was calculated that new migration accounted for about one-sixth of Britain's economic growth, equivalent to £6 billion last year. The Home Office said the newcomers had "high levels of skills – higher on average than the UK natives" and that employers found migrant workers "reliable and hard-working".

It reported that migrants earned on average £424 per week last year, compared with £395 for UK-born workers, and as a result paid more per head in tax and VAT than Britons. It also suggested that the work ethic of the new arrivals was also having a positive impact on British workers, helping to increase their pay levels.

The Home Office said research showed migrants contributed 10 per cent of Government revenue, but used only 9.1 per cent of expenditure in such areas as schools or hospitals.

It said: "In the long run it is likely the net fiscal contribution of an immigrant will be greater than that of a non-immigrant."

The proportion of foreigners in the workforce has nearly doubled in recent years, but employment has increased by 2.7 million, rebuffing claims that dole queues had lengthened because of migration.

"Concerns that native workers would be displaced by migrant workers... seem ill-founded as migrant workers appear to have complementary skills to the native labour force," it said. Liam Byrne, the Immigration Minister, sounded a cautious note about the figures. "The UK economy and the Exchequer over the long run clearly profit from migration," he said. "But we need to strike a new balance in migration policy where we set benefits alongside what we know about the wider impact of migration."

Danny Sriskandarajah, migration research fellow for the Institute for Public Policy Research, said the figures were positive. "Immigrants bring immense benefits to the UK economy. Let's hope our political leaders pay more attention to this positive evidence than to anecdotes about negative impacts when designing migration policies," he said.

But David Davis, the shadow Home Secretary, said that relying on immigration to boost the economy was "a short term answer" and said the Government should concentrate on finding work for the 1 million economically inactive under 25s in Britain.

And Sir Andrew Green, chairman of MigrationWatchUK, which campaigns against mass immigration, dismissed the importance of the figures.

"This is an incredibly feeble justification for mass immigration," he said. "In fact, on their own figures the benefit to the native population is trivial. The addition to production is almost exactly the same as the addition to population."

The Home Office published the research ahead of today's meeting of the Government-sponsored Migration Impact Forum, which advises ministers on the effect immigration is having on all aspects of national life. Its conclusions will be studied by ministers when they decide whether to lift the tough restrictions on workers from Romania and Bulgaria, which joined the EU in January.

The forum will be told today that all parts of the country have experienced an increase in numbers of new arrivals from the eight eastern and central European countries that joined the European Union in 2004. All regions reported an economic boost from the newcomers, but concluded some problems of integration and pressure on public services had also begun to develop.

It said community tensions had emerged in areas such as the South-west and Scotland which had not previously experienced large-scale immigration, while several other regions warned of the pressure on the supply of cheap housing.

Geoffrey S
10-17-2007, 14:56
Let alone when Europe is stuck with pensioners supported by a relatively diminishing workforce; non-western immigrants from areas with too many youths, such as the Middle-East, will practically be necessary to support pensions and other aspects of the welfare state.

HoreTore
10-17-2007, 15:07
Unless we(as in Norway) get a LOT of new immigrants and put them to work very quickly, it's very likely that we won't be able to sustain our welfare state.

If there is ONE area we should learn from the USA, then it's this one. They have performed admirably in this field compared to us. We're too busy trying to keep people out instead of letting them contribute to our country, like the US did.

Devastatin Dave
10-17-2007, 15:16
Unless we(as in Norway) get a LOT of new immigrants and put them to work very quickly, it's very likely that we won't be able to sustain our welfare state.

If there is ONE area we should learn from the USA, then it's this one. They have performed admirably in this field compared to us. We're too busy trying to keep people out instead of letting them contribute to our country, like the US did.
Oh brother....

HoreTore
10-17-2007, 15:20
Oh brother....

I'm not talking about the mexicans you have working for half a dollar a day, dave ~;)

In that area, you're doing the same thing we are doing to the poles and russkies...

Devastatin Dave
10-17-2007, 15:30
I'm not talking about the mexicans you have working for half a dollar a day, dave ~;)

In that area, you're doing the same thing we are doing to the poles and russkies...
The reason I said "Oh brother" is because what you stated in your previous post only fuels the problem. the welfare state feeds upon itself until it is unable to sustain itself. You are simply adding to your problems by putting a band aid on an open woulnd. But this is impossible for me to explain to someone completely indocternated into the nanny state mindset, and your position would be completely spent on deaf ears since I am completely saturated in the joy of capitalism. So we'll just have to agree to disagree. I do find it hillarious that you use the US as the model of about 99% of your arguements even when the thread has nothing to do with the United States. Must be a deep rooted jealousy or envy. Its sort of pathetic, like penis envy or something.

Crazed Rabbit
10-17-2007, 15:52
Unless we(as in Norway) get a LOT of new immigrants and put them to work very quickly, it's very likely that we won't be able to sustain our welfare state.

If there is ONE area we should learn from the USA, then it's this one. They have performed admirably in this field compared to us. We're too busy trying to keep people out instead of letting them contribute to our country, like the US did.

What's that you say? The welfare state is unsustainable without large, continuous injections of foreign workers?
:evil:

As to the OP - are they comparing the average wage between all migrant workers and all British workers? Are they including unemployed migrants and Britons in the count? When calculating the migrant's 'drain' on the government due to benefits, do they include benefits paid to migrant's family and the like?

CR

Mikeus Caesar
10-17-2007, 17:19
I've always known this. The only people who have ever claimed that immigrants are scroungers are sensationalist tabloids like the Daily Mail and politicians preying on the nationalism many idiots feel.

Most, if not all, immigrants contribute a lot to this country. Unfortunately most people are idiots and will quite happily slag off all immigrants as thieves, gypsies and scroungers, while eating a British apple most likely picked by a Polish immigrant.

lars573
10-17-2007, 17:25
What's that you say? The welfare state is unsustainable without large, continuous injections of foreign workers?
:evil:
No that's not it at all. The welfare state is unsustainable without population growth that is at least at replacement levels. The most economic way to accomplish that is through immigration. As the other way (encourage the native population to have more babies) requires more benefits and taxbreaks.

Fragony
10-17-2007, 17:39
Oh common everybody knows they cost more then they produce. It could work but that would involve working.

Devastatin Dave
10-17-2007, 17:53
Oh common everybody knows they cost more then they produce. It could work but that would involve working.
Remember Fragony its not about facts, its about feelings.:laugh4:

Spino
10-17-2007, 17:53
Great, so when these migrant workers become assimilated and they (or their children) adopt all the bad habits of their new home and become accustomed to suckling at the state's teat then they'll become just as lazy and inefficient as the natives whose jobs they stole in the first place... talk about a vicious cycle!

The solution? More immigrants! It's clear the immigration experts working in the British gov't really thought this one out... :rolleyes:

The Wizard
10-17-2007, 18:15
Oh common everybody knows they cost more then they produce. It could work but that would involve working.LOL, prejudice

Ironside
10-17-2007, 18:17
Great, so when these migrant workers become assimilated and they (or their children) adopt all the bad habits of their new home and become accustomed to suckling at the state's teat then they'll become just as lazy and inefficient as the natives whose jobs they stole in the first place... talk about a vicious cycle!

The solution? More immigrants! It's clear the immigration experts working in the British gov't really thought this one out... :rolleyes:

Since when has a larger population been a downside? ~;p


No that's not it at all. The welfare state is unsustainable without population growth that is at least at replacement levels. The most economic way to accomplish that is through immigration. As the other way (encourage the native population to have more babies) requires more benefits and taxbreaks.

Actually, it's that a certain amount of the population needs to work, so people going into pension "early" and living long after that is also a problem. But sure, population increase is an answer, as is immigration (or really going into cyborg/android technology, advanced robotics could be enough as well).

Fragony
10-17-2007, 18:24
LOL, prejudice

4 years experience as a manager at a temp-agency actually. Trust me, hopeless.

The Wizard
10-17-2007, 18:26
For every single example you name, I can raise you the immigrants that I know, in higher education to get a better life for themselves. So stop telling that one-sided story. It's getting stale.

Proletariat
10-17-2007, 18:30
Aren't pyramid schemes considered a form of fraud in the US? :beam: (I know we're talking Britain here, but you get the point anyway)

Fragony
10-17-2007, 18:37
For every single example you name, I can raise you the immigrants that I know, in higher education to get a better life for themselves. So stop telling that one-sided story. It's getting stale.

Chances are likely I know even more of them. But I know a little bit about the non-just graduated for gymnasium stuff as well.

Ironside
10-17-2007, 18:39
Aren't pyramid schemes considered a form of fraud in the US? :beam: (I know we're talking Britain here, but you get the point anyway)

Only when they crash :clown:


Chances are likely I know even more of them. But I know a little bit about the non-just graduated for gymnasium stuff as well.

Aren't they quite common amoung the non-immigrant population as well?

Xiahou
10-17-2007, 19:41
Aren't pyramid schemes considered a form of fraud in the US? :beam: (I know we're talking Britain here, but you get the point anyway)
You'd think so, but then how do you explain Social Security? :wink:

Nice analogy though.... :yes:

Watchman
10-17-2007, 22:24
Meh, the problem is those postwar "baby boomer" generations starting to reach the retirement age, and as the generations after them have only tended towards lower childbirth rates the problem is just plain running out of enough working-age population to keep things running. Logically if there's not enough of the natives you try to bring in foreigners to make up the balance - but as someone sarcastically put it, "Europeans fear foreigners and their politicians fear their voting base"...

HoreTore
10-18-2007, 07:27
The reason I said "Oh brother" is because what you stated in your previous post only fuels the problem. the welfare state feeds upon itself until it is unable to sustain itself. You are simply adding to your problems by putting a band aid on an open woulnd. But this is impossible for me to explain to someone completely indocternated into the nanny state mindset, and your position would be completely spent on deaf ears since I am completely saturated in the joy of capitalism. So we'll just have to agree to disagree.

No, the welfare state isn't why we're in a pickle. The reason is that we have a big, stretched country with almost no people in it, and so infrastructure gets too expensive.


I do find it hillarious that you use the US as the model of about 99% of your arguements even when the thread has nothing to do with the United States. Must be a deep rooted jealousy or envy. Its sort of pathetic, like penis envy or something.

Somewhat bitter today, Dave? The reason for the US argument, is that we all do basically the same thing with immigrants here in europe, while you do it differently. We all behave like idiots, while you are doing better in this area.


What's that you say? The welfare state is unsustainable without large, continuous injections of foreign workers?
:evil:

Nah, I'm saying that Norway is a country with way too few people in it. Not nearly enough for the infrastructure of a big stretched country.

Geoffrey S
10-18-2007, 11:41
No, the welfare state isn't why we're in a pickle.
Perhaps not in Norway, but I think it can be safely said that in Holland it's taken an awful long while for politicians to pluck up the courage to say that the welfare state as-is is impossible to uphold, let alone having politicians with the courage to say that either the welfare state needs to be cut back drastically or we have to accept that immigrants fulfill a fundemental necessity if it is to continue. And even if politicians are realising it (hidden behind the obvious party policies) right now public opinion is demanding incompatible things and doesn't seem to be particularly aware that that is the case.

Aren't pyramid schemes considered a form of fraud in the US?
Apt analogy.

Watchman
10-18-2007, 13:28
And even if politicians are realising it (hidden behind the obvious party policies) right now public opinion is demanding incompatible things and doesn't seem to be particularly aware that that is the case.Not like it was exactly unusual for the voting base to want to both eat the cake and keep it, fail to comprehend why this isn't possible, and more likely than not complain quite unreasonably about it...

I mean, around here ? Any poll that asks if people want to keep the welfare-state structures intact etc. is quaranteed to net you a clear majority answering in the affirmative. Then they vote the neoliberals into the governement in the elections (usually because they've bought into the "winner" rhetoric and promises of tax cuts), and later wonder why everything and particularly the welfare state and public services are going to Hell in a handbasket... and whine about the politicos being lying sods and the immigrants "coming to take our jobs and live off our tax money".
:wall:
Idiots. Makes you see where Churchill came up with that nasty quip regarding the best argument against democracy...