View Full Version : Create two different legion units - Split from the Spears thread
A Terribly Harmful Name
10-17-2007, 16:03
As a point of order, history books are not evidence, ancient writers and artifacts are.
To answer your point. A veteran unit is represented by a higher level of experience anyway. Why would we have a veteran and green version of a unit we already had. If you build a unit of Cohors Reformata then those a green troops. If you want veteran units I suggest you send them out to fight.
Either way the Roman faction already had 2.5 times as many unique units as any other faction. We are at our absolute limit.
Then why not only allow the recruitment of Pezhetairoi only when the Deuteroi get enough experience, and so on? I mean there could be two units that would represent a fresh levy post-marian legions, more numerous, cheap and weaker, and an unit of trained and tough professional legionaries, less numerous and more expensive.
Any thoughts?
I think we have the evocata in EB, don't we? So just raise their defense and attack value for a point or two and everything is fine.
As a point of order, history books are not evidence, ancient writers and artifacts are.
Who said that? (stopped reading the spear threat since a while)
Zaknafien
10-17-2007, 16:12
Phillip said it, and he's right of course.
Its foolish to represent ONE unit of soldiers with more than one game unit--thats what those chevrons are for-they represent experience.
If you're too lazy to go grow your legions into experienced units like real commanders had to do, edit your own game and have them recruitable with more experience. EB will never do it.
Pezhetairoi and Phalangitai Deuteroi are drawn from different parts of the population (Pezhetairoi are wealthier) and use (slightly) different equipment (Pezhetairoi use better/more expensive equipment), which makes them two distinct units in EB.
Your roman example is different, in that those units are just one and the same (equipment and population class wise) and as such don't need two units to represent them. A better comparison would be Hastati and Principes: principes are from a more wealthy part of the population and use (slightly) better/more expensive equipment and are therefore represented as two distict units.
QwertyMIDX
10-17-2007, 16:25
Then why not only allow the recruitment of Pezhetairoi only when the Deuteroi get enough experience, and so on? I mean there could be two units that would represent a fresh levy post-marian legions, more numerous, cheap and weaker, and an unit of trained and tough professional legionaries, less numerous and more expensive.
Any thoughts?
A) Because we can't make units change as they get experience (there are units where we would do that if we could, talk to CA if you want that feature though.)
B) That's a really bad analogy. Pezhetairoi aren't more experienced Deuteroi. Its a class distinction. To quote from the unit descriptions:
The Phalangitai Deuteroi are wealthier members of Makedonian or Eperiot society than the majority of peasants, but are still not in the class required to be considered Pezhetairoi (voting property owners)
C) We're not going to give Rome even more unit slots. They already have nearly twice the amount of any other faction. (I love how everyone who thinks EB hates Romans ignores the fact that they have more so much extra attention lavished on them).
blacksnail
10-17-2007, 16:28
Any thoughts?
EB will not do this. We simply do not have the room, and we cannot justify this for a single faction.
If you wish to create an unofficial mini-mod to simulate this, please check out out sub-forum (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=129).
Phillip said it, and he's right of course.
Yes he is.
(since I don't want this threat to become a discussion on the definition and right use of sources)
Zaknafien
10-17-2007, 16:51
really youd be better off discussing a different unit for eastern and western legionary cohorts, or even a 'northern' cohort. this has been debated internally before and has more merit--even though it probably wont happen due to unit restrictions.
A Terribly Harmful Name
10-17-2007, 20:42
No, I'm discerning between Pezhetairoi and Deuteroi only as a question of training, not of personal wealth and status. Many from the capite censi turned into tough soldiers in the Legions, so it's not a question of your social class and wealth.
I was clearly making this analogy as a response to Zaknafien's post. You didn't deny that there were high quality and trained legions, but you also stated that during a war, many levies would be used to fill the ranks of the army thus degrading the quality.
I think clearly that an institution as widespread, diverse and large as the Roman army cannot be acurately represented by just generalizing one unit of Cohors Reformata. And I'm not talking about adding a veteran unit to the game, we already have the Evocati, but I'm talking about adding lower quality legions along with more trained and professional ones to represent the disparities in the Roman army. Then the Deuteroi vs. Pezhetairoi analogy comes.
As such, a distinction between regional legions in the later Augustan Era is also a good idea.
Zaknafien
10-17-2007, 20:50
You, friend, are ludicrous. In one instance you argue for the discipline and cohesion of the Roman army, and in the next you argue for its widepsread diversity. You cant have it both ways mate.
A Terribly Harmful Name
10-17-2007, 20:57
You, friend, are ludicrous. In one instance you argue for the discipline and cohesion of the Roman army, and in the next you argue for its widepsread diversity. You cant have it both ways mate.
Am I ludicrous? Call me ludicrous all the time you want, but I want to discuss EB 'till it becomes the best mod over there. I would make these things for myself if I had the time to do so.
The Roman army had discipline and cohesion enough, and it got famous over the Western World just because of their strict training, discipline and effectiveness. However, there were disparities enough in the legion, especially as you stated and I never disagreed with, when time of war came and many raw recruits entered the army especially during the "Post-Marian" era.
Later on, there is reference about the difference in quality between the Eastern and the Western legions. While this doesn't mean they were a bunch of levies, it means that the Roman army had a large discipline and cohesion, but that doesn't mean the Legion didn't have its share of low quality soldiers. All armies have, including the Greeks, the barbarians, and etc...
Megas Methuselah
10-17-2007, 21:09
Am I ludicrous? Call me ludicrous all the time you want, but I want to discuss EB 'till it becomes the best mod over there.
It already is the best mod, you spoiled brat...
QwertyMIDX
10-17-2007, 21:21
No, I'm discerning between Pezhetairoi and Deuteroi only as a question of training, not of personal wealth and status. Many from the capite censi turned into tough soldiers in the Legions, so it's not a question of your social class and wealth.
Once again.
We're not going to create a whole bunch of units based on the level of experience of Cohort A vs. Cohort B for the following reasons.
1) RTW already has its own experience system built in (problematic as it is).
2) We already stat the Marian and Augustan Cohorts the way we stat 'vetern' troops in EB.
3) The same argument could be made for almost any unit in the game, why not have a whole slew of units represting the varying experience levels of Peltasts, Cataphracts, or Gaeros?
4) We're not giving the Romans even more units, they already take up nearly twice as much model/unit space as any other faction.
Zaknafien
10-17-2007, 21:52
yeah, plus we're already getting brand new principes and hastati anyways! --oops.
Watchman
10-17-2007, 21:59
...Zak bullies the fans again... :inquisitive:
I am not sure 'fan' is the word to describe the 'I want' brigade....unless its....F.A.N......so do we have to suggest what this stands for....
....I think N=numpty....not sure of F.......or A....have to think on this....
A Terribly Harmful Name
10-17-2007, 22:34
It is incredible, but the EB team and some people here are by far the most reactionary I've ever seen. You can even say "a" without getting flamed, then get a lesson of "how good is this mod, how we spent our time building it, how it is great, how we are the kings, and how you should all shut up and bow because you're inferior". Pah! Many other mods welcome discussion with more open hands.
As for the quality of troops, EB already discerns between Kleurochoi, Deuteroi, Pezhetairoi and even Hysterioi Pezhetairoi. Were the Hellenic system like the Roman, then we would a single Pike Phalanx unit with another Reformed Pike Phalanx coming later, and both would only have average and below average skills.
Ah, OK, discussing here is like talking to the devil, so do whatever you want.
Watchman
10-17-2007, 22:50
:inquisitive: Persecution complex much ?
jhhowell
10-17-2007, 22:54
2) We already stat the Marian and Augustan Cohorts the way we stat 'vetern' troops in EB.
...
4) We're not giving the Romans even more units, they already take up nearly twice as much model/unit space as any other faction.
This reminds me of a question I asked in the feedback thread a few days ago (not very clearly, judging from the response I got).
According to the unit cards, Marian and Augustan legions are absolutely identical now (IIRC they were very slightly different from each other in 0.8). Why do they use two unit slots, instead of just being a single "Cohors" unit representing all the legions after Marius? I'm guessing there's some little detail that's not shown on the cards that's important to keep different between Marian and Imperial legions, and I'm curious to know what that is.
And a follow-up to my question about those spear auxilia - why are there separate eastern and western versions? Again, identical stats, which to me indicates it may as well be a single unit... If they really were discernably different, shouldn't that show up in the stats? Maybe eastern guys had better armor since that was a richer part of the Empire, or something like that?
Thanks!
Watchman
10-17-2007, 22:57
Mail and scale armour seem to be, all other thing being equal, functionally identical in game terms though. IIRC the Auxilias use skin slots from models other factions use for a lot of stuff (and which the Romani would have no other use for) so that's not an issue though.
The_Mark
10-17-2007, 23:03
It is incredible, but the EB team and some people here are by far the most reactionary I've ever seen. You can even say "a" without getting flamed, then get a lesson of "how good is this mod, how we spent our time building it, how it is great, how we are the kings, and how you should all shut up and bow because you're inferior". Pah! Many other mods welcome discussion with more open hands.
As for the quality of troops, EB already discerns between Kleurochoi, Deuteroi, Pezhetairoi and even Hysterioi Pezhetairoi. Were the Hellenic system like the Roman, then we would a single Pike Phalanx unit with another Reformed Pike Phalanx coming later, and both would only have average and below average skills.
Ah, OK, discussing here is like talking to the devil, so do whatever you want.
Your position has been noted and refuted several times already, you don't have to repeat it, indeed, pointless repetition is detrimental to your case, as copying the previous answer gets tiresome, which, in turn, leads to grumpy answers.
As for your ad hominem about us not being open-minded, there's a thread spanning multiple pages where your (off-topic, which is weird, as you started the thread) arguments have been responded to by team members, several times, and with actual sources, not to mention your arguments not having any solid foundation whatsoever. That is to say, you should bow down because of your inferior arguments.
Edit: Yes, you, good man, have begun to annoy me.
It is incredible, but the EB team and some people here are by far the most reactionary I've ever seen. You can even say "a" without getting flamed, then get a lesson of "how good is this mod, how we spent our time building it, how it is great, how we are the kings, and how you should all shut up and bow because you're inferior". Pah! Many other mods welcome discussion with more open hands.
Ah, OK, discussing here is like talking to the devil, so do whatever you want.
rofl, the EB team tries to explain things to you and in your ignorance ignore them. Get over it.
It's like talking to a wall, you can show it all the evidence in the world proving your point/reasoning but obviously it doesnt give a shit. (you being the wall.)
The_Mark
10-17-2007, 23:28
Thank you Spoofa. Now, if you'll excuse me, I'll get onto wondering what else I might get you to repeat after me.
Thank you Spoofa. Now, if you'll excuse me, I'll get onto wondering what else I might get you to repeat after me. ~;p
Lol sorry, this guy has been pissing me off too and I just wanted to make sure he knows more then just 1 person is annoyed by his continued attitude. :laugh4:
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
10-17-2007, 23:41
As for the quality of troops, EB already discerns between Kleurochoi, Deuteroi, Pezhetairoi and even Hysterioi Pezhetairoi. Were the Hellenic system like the Roman, then we would a single Pike Phalanx unit with another Reformed Pike Phalanx coming later, and both would only have average and below average skills.
This has been dealt with, but again: Those are different classes of soldiers, from different backgrounds, with different sources of equipment and training, some providing their own gear, others state sponsored.
Post-Marian Legionaries are all one class of soldier. Hence one unit.
LordCurlyton
10-17-2007, 23:46
If there is such a problem with quality disparities between N/W/E legions, is it possible to have those regions recruit Cohors Reformata of better/lesser experience. In other words, have certain areas train Cohors Reformata with a chevron or two. That way you wouldn't have to use one of the units slots which you can't spare anyways. Honestly, I could see you just doing away with Cohors Evocata and letting one recruit a 3 chevroned (or such) Cohors Reformata instead, since the equipment was identical, no? Which would make MIC 3: Cohors Reformata, MIC 4: Cohors Reformata, Cohors Reformata (Exp Whatever) for X Mnai more.
The_Mark
10-17-2007, 23:47
Lol sorry, this guy has been pissing me off too and I just wanted to make sure he knows more then just 1 person is annoyed by his continued attitude. :laugh4:
Sigh. Sorry, my post was way too cheery. Don't clutter the thread with me-tooisms.
Edit: Yes, I'm grumpy.
Zaknafien
10-18-2007, 00:13
hey, look over there!
*hopes bait distracts trolls*
https://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e286/Alhazenalrashid/Untitled-1copy-2.jpg
About Ze Incredible Romans: Ze Question I always keep on asking myself is:
how could anybody be a good swordsman (piercing/slashing/hacking/cleaving/cracking/whatever) with this HUGE heavy inconvenient shield in thy left hand?
not trolling, just curious:help:
AntiochusIII
10-18-2007, 08:23
About Ze Incredible Romans: Ze Question I always keep on asking myself is:
how could anybody be a good swordsman (piercing/slashing/hacking/cleaving/cracking/whatever) with this HUGE heavy inconvenient shield in thy left hand?
not trolling, just curious:help:I'm faaaaar from an expert, but my guess is that the average Roman legionary isn't exactly doing swordplay when he fights. More like: stab, swing, slash, stab, block, etc.
Basileos ton Ellenon: I think your complaints would be much better supported by in-game evidence than multiple threads really. Play-testing + screenshots and replays are very useful when indicating these kinds of issues.
I myself haven't played the Romans in 1.0 yet but I'm seriously unconvinced that the Romans are anyway being treated unfairly in this mod. They always feel most complete to me: most buildings in the Huge City level, lots and lots of completely unique units, etc.
Really, when you think about it the oft-accused Hellenistic bias is really not there since the Greek factions just share one or two "template" with distinct traits, Celtic factions similarly, and Nomadic factions also. The more EB develops the more the distinctions are fleshed out, but at their most basic they're still relatively the same.
Only Rome, Carthage, the Germans (Sweboz, I know), and one or two other factions are more unique than others. And of all that Rome has the most detail of any. Another bloody legionary unit I'll never see taking the precious space and I'll be the one whining!
Watchman
10-18-2007, 09:15
About Ze Incredible Romans: Ze Question I always keep on asking myself is:
how could anybody be a good swordsman (piercing/slashing/hacking/cleaving/cracking/whatever) with this HUGE heavy inconvenient shield in thy left hand?
not trolling, just curious:help:Why couldn't they ? People carried big shields because those were darn useful for stonewalling the blows of the foe and stopping all kinds of unpleasant flying things. It's not like you're going to engage in any very fancy fencing in the confines of a heavy-infantry slugging match anyway.
Why couldn't they ? People carried big shields because those were darn useful for stonewalling the blows of the foe and stopping all kinds of unpleasant flying things. It's not like you're going to engage in any very fancy fencing in the confines of a heavy-infantry slugging match anyway.
As i said before, Romans like to get very close and then they just stab-stab-stab, so yes they don't need to do any acrobatics.
Some movies however pass the "info" that Romans decapitate enemies with dual-wielding swords while doing backflips over them...
Watchman
10-18-2007, 12:41
That's "Hollywood For Fandumb" for ya, when everything has to be made 'rad awesome' and then some to cover up for the movie's other shortcomings...
Cheexsta
10-18-2007, 13:09
That's "Hollywood For Fandumb" for ya, when everything has to be made 'rad awesome' and then some to cover up for the movie's other shortcomings...
You mean 300 lied to me?! :skull:
Watchman
10-18-2007, 13:19
And with a straight face too. If you actually paid money to see it, I figure we could charge it with ripping you off as well... :yes:
You mean 300 lied to me?! :skull:
i actually found it funny in 300 how Leonidas first told the humpy guy how important the phalanx was and all and then the spartans actually used it only once and the rest of the time they ran around with their swords and decapitated everybody :laugh4:
Fearless Samnite
10-18-2007, 21:27
i actually found it funny in 300 how Leonidas first told the humpy guy how important the phalanx was and all and then the spartans actually used it only once and the rest of the time they ran around with their swords and decapitated everybody :laugh4:
:laugh4: i remember that
but that would be the unarmored naked phalanx
sorta like a Gaesatae phalanx, guys running around decapitating opponents with their spears crazy like
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