Obsolete Spartans?

[HopliteElite]

I've noticed that Epilektoi Hoplitai can be recruited in at least more than one province in Greece (atm I've only noticed Chalkis and Athenai but that is just because I have not built the proper barracks in all of my current homeland and close-by subjugation cities) but Spartan hoplitai can only be recruited in Sparta and have one lower defense point, with the same amount of troops and a slightly higher upkeep. Have the Spartans become obsolete on purpose or do they have hidden stats that make them better than Epilektoi? I always liked using Spartans and I still do use them but I'm a bit confused as to why the supposedly best trained hoplite force of classical Greece is outmatched by democratic dandies from Athens that fight in the same style.

[mighty_rome]

I just checked and it looks like the Spartans morale is one point higher (17 vs 16). They're both great units really, so just use whichever one you like.

[keravnos]

I've noticed that Epilektoi Hoplitai can be recruited in at least more than one province in Greece (atm I've only noticed Chalkis and Athenai but that is just because I have not built the proper barracks in all of my current homeland and close-by subjugation cities) but Spartan hoplitai can only be recruited in Sparta and have one lower defense point, with the same amount of troops and a slightly higher upkeep. Have the Spartans become obsolete on purpose or do they have hidden stats that make them better than Epilektoi? I always liked using Spartans and I still do use them but I'm a bit confused as to why the supposedly best trained hoplite force of classical Greece is outmatched by democratic dandies from Athens that fight in the same style.

Simple. I would imagine KH, if victorious to use only its best force for officer, or subofficer cadre, and even worse, recruiters and trainers. Imagine a spartan boot camp master instructor? :skull:

Net result would be Hoplites Epilektoi. Not quite as good as the Spartans that trained them, but recruitable in many more areas then JUST Sparta and environs.

No other way around this really. What would you have us do? Recruit Spartans all over the Med and claim they had military colonies? Sparta DID colonize some cities, (In Italy) but NEVER did those reach the standards set by Spartiatai. Instead they reached out to the mother land in times of trouble.

Thus, the only way, and the correct one is to create an "elite" hoplite, which is what Epilektoi are, for their name means "chosen", to accomodate all the joint history and traditions of the hoplitic way of fighting cumulating into one single unit. (with spartans to recruit them, spartans to train them, and spartans to rule them- in battle at least)

[HopliteElite]

Simple. I would imagine KH, if victorious to use only its best force for officer, or subofficer cadre, and even worse, recruiters and trainers. Imagine a spartan boot camp master instructor?

Net result would be Hoplites Epilektoi. Not quite as good as the Spartans that trained them, but recruitable in many more areas then JUST Sparta and environs.

No other way around this really. What would you have us do? Recruit Spartans all over the Med and claim they had military colonies? Sparta DID colonize some cities, (In Italy) but NEVER did those reach the standards set by Spartiatai. Instead they reached out to the mother land in times of trouble.

Thus, the only way, and the correct one is to create an "elite" hoplite, which is what Epilektoi are, for their name means "chosen", to accomodate all the joint history and traditions of the hoplitic way of fighting cumulating into one single unit. (with spartans to recruit them, spartans to train them, and spartans to rule them- in battle at least)

Good enough and makes sense too.

[gran_guitarra]

So if the Epilektoi are supposed to be *slightly* inferior to the Spartans who trained them why do they have +1 point of defense? Personally I think that their stats should be switched, with the exception of Morale. That would fit in far more.

btw, I think that Syracuse was a spinoff of Sparta, so would Spartiatai Hoplitai be available in there? Might not be entirely historically accurate, but it is possible that if the KH conquered the Poleis and established the Spartan Agoge they would achieve the same level of ability.

[Watchman]

Syracuse had a habit of kinda doing its own thing AFAIK. Like developing cavalry, siege engines, and gastraphagetes. The parent city was probably a little aghast at such distinctly un-hoplitesque oddities.

Anyway, the one-point difference in defense score between the two is simply armour. The Epikletoi appear to have better helmets (of the cheekpieces-and-whatnot sort) whereas the hidebound Spartans seem to be sticking to the cone-on-a-head pilos skullcap.

Reactionarism has its downsides. :beam:

[Kurulham]

Imagine a spartan boot camp master instructor?
I had one. GMC Casimes, quite possibly the scariest man I've ever met and certainly one of the best. May not have been raised in the agoge but he is from Sparti. Not entirely sure how he found himself in the US Navy but I'm certainly a better man for having him train me.