View Full Version : Wow, just had a crazy conversation with the family
Regarding the Jews and Muslims, so this is very suited to the Back Room I think. Very odd, I was accused of being a humanist by my dad which is great cos I leapt on that statement and went 'Yes! I am a bloody humanist!', but still...
So, if I can recall correctly - My dad thinks Hitler was right in targetting the Jews, and equated their situation in Germany to the current situation with Moslems in Britain today, suggesting that British Moslems should be killed or expelled and their assets appropriated. I expressed my utter indignation at this to the point that the barman shouted out that he'd have to call the police if we continued - eek!
My sister is an evangelical Christian of persuadable morals and seems to think that the Moslems are out to create a Caliphate in her Yorkshire town. I have rather less-than-BNP morals, so the family didn't take too kindly when I suggested that they were perhaps stupid racists. I knew that my father had views aligned with the BNP when it came to Islam in the UK, but I had no idea he thought killing Jews was 'all right' if it meant the 'betterment' of the country in question..
So, has anyone else had to deal with relations who think they're right, despite their views being morally questionable and how did you deal with it? I've never had a barman threaten to call the police on me before (and I've never called my sister those names before either)! :o)
Samurai Waki
10-19-2007, 00:29
Just stand your ground, and don't compromise with anyone who advocates killing an entire ethnic group of people within your country. If it were to come down to war (which it bloody well won't) Say you'd fight them tooth and nail. If they have a problem with that, then they don't need to discuss it any further.
Geoffrey S
10-19-2007, 00:33
Uh, some elderly relations from South Africa, now deceased. They could be pretty awkward.
But nothing quite that extreme. They're your views, but don't allow them to distance you from your family. That's a painful direction that's really no fun to head off to.
Seamus Fermanagh
10-19-2007, 01:07
Sorry. This will undoubtedly put a strain on things with the family. Intellectually and morally, of course, you are in the right -- but that won't make standing your ground any fun. Good luck to you.
Crazed Rabbit
10-19-2007, 01:43
I've got a sibling who defended Nazi Germany's invasion of Poland, to 'get back what was theirs' and lauded fascism as a means of government.
:dizzy2:
Arguing with him is pointless - imagine the most stubborn, unwilling to change their opinion one iota poster here in the backroom and he's worse. If he gets it into his head that the sun is a blue cube, nothing will change his mind, including dragging him outside and forcing him to look at the sun.
Probably best just to let it go and not argue about it, if you want to stay close.
Crazed Rabbit
I had some arguments with my dad about the topic of muslims and terrorism and while we often started out flaming eachother I usually found out that we actually agree on most things. ~D
But politics shouldn't be a deviding factor, you can just agree to disagree and don't get too loud, try to make him feel bad about what he is thinking. Once he actually feels guilty, he should start giving in. :2thumbsup:
If you can't make him feel guilty, then I'm sorry for you, and him.
CrossLOPER
10-19-2007, 02:50
Another Moslem invasion thread? Where's Fragony?
Evil_Maniac From Mars
10-19-2007, 02:54
The worst I've ever heard was from my uncle after World Cup 2006, really drunk:
It's the Jews...th'm Jews...they why we always lose...
Shhhh!
Why is he driving?
IrishArmenian
10-19-2007, 03:20
Thank God I've never had such a hateful relative.
My family is made up of actual Christians, you know, peace-advocating, tolerant, kind hearted people.
I have one truly extremist uncle. At my son's baptism, he interrupted the party by declaiming (loudly) about how America should be partitioned so that real patriots would not have to live in the same system as godless liberals. He also watches nothing but Fox news. Everybody should have a relative who lives on the political fringe; it's a handy reminder of the virtues of moderation.
Another Moslem invasion thread? Where's Fragony?
I understand that it is great fun to say, but if it are kudos you are craving for better get a webcam.
Mikeus Caesar
10-19-2007, 09:46
The worst i know of is my Grandfather, but it's only to be expected. He still thinks we have an Empire. He refers to the aborigines as "abbo's" and black people as "nignogs", just to state a few of the less distasteful things.
It's not that he has any problem with them, some of his best friends are black guys, it's just that he's stuck in the past when it comes to naming different races.
Incongruous
10-19-2007, 10:17
The worst i know of is my Grandfather, but it's only to be expected. He still thinks we have an Empire. He refers to the aborigines as "abbo's" and black people as "nignogs", just to state a few of the less distasteful things.
It's not that he has any problem with them, some of his best friends are black guys, it's just that he's stuck in the past when it comes to naming different races.
So?
If he is clearly not a racist and his friends know he's like that, who cares?
People who get all flustered by racial tags put too much stock in race full stop.
The worst i know of is my Grandfather, but it's only to be expected. He still thinks we have an Empire. He refers to the aborigines as "abbo's" and black people as "nignogs", just to state a few of the less distasteful things.
It's not that he has any problem with them, some of his best friends are black guys, it's just that he's stuck in the past when it comes to naming different races.
My English grandmother is kind of similar. She loves Jazz, Big Band Swing and Blues and calls black people 'negros'. Not because she means anything unpleasent by it, it's just that that's what she's always known them as.
I agree with Bopa in that PC is just going a bit too overboard. There are people who use such names with malice and intent to offend but people such as my grandmother aren't in that category.
As to the opening post, my Dutch grandfather is someone who I respect immensely and I have always gotten on well with him. We do however disagree on one point, which is Maori claims to land and the treaty of Waitangi. He considers Maori wanting their land back as the same as what he saw in Indonesia and thinks it's just a few extremists who are playing the government to take as much as they can. I've tried explaining to him about it but it's like trying to draw blood from rocks :wall:.
So we disagree on that point but we still get on really well, despite his mildly imperialistic views. Just don't end up hating each other over it, after my grandfather realised I was not going to agree with him we just changed the subject and it never had the slightest affect on our relationship.
:bow:
HoreTore
10-19-2007, 15:58
A few years after my parents married, politics were banned from family events. My fathers side are evangelical conservatives, my mothers side are die-hard commies. It's a shame I wasn't around to see the carnage...
My sister fell in the trap once though, on the topic of gay marriage... It wasn't pretty...
CrossLOPER
10-19-2007, 16:51
I understand that it is great fun to say, but if it are kudos you are craving for better get a webcam.
You're right, that wasn't fair or nice at all. I'm sorry.
As per your suggestion for a web cam, I'm afraid I'm not fit to be a cam whore. :shame:
Rameusb5
10-19-2007, 20:24
Regarding the Jews and Muslims, so this is very suited to the Back Room I think. Very odd, I was accused of being a humanist by my dad which is great cos I leapt on that statement and went 'Yes! I am a bloody humanist!', but still...
So, if I can recall correctly - My dad thinks Hitler was right in targetting the Jews, and equated their situation in Germany to the current situation with Moslems in Britain today, suggesting that British Moslems should be killed or expelled and their assets appropriated. I expressed my utter indignation at this to the point that the barman shouted out that he'd have to call the police if we continued - eek!
My sister is an evangelical Christian of persuadable morals and seems to think that the Moslems are out to create a Caliphate in her Yorkshire town. I have rather less-than-BNP morals, so the family didn't take too kindly when I suggested that they were perhaps stupid racists. I knew that my father had views aligned with the BNP when it came to Islam in the UK, but I had no idea he thought killing Jews was 'all right' if it meant the 'betterment' of the country in question..
So, has anyone else had to deal with relations who think they're right, despite their views being morally questionable and how did you deal with it? I've never had a barman threaten to call the police on me before (and I've never called my sister those names before either)! :o)
May I ask if their sentiments are common in England? I find them somewhat surprising. Here in America, we tend to think of fascism and the holocost as something that is/was horrific.
I'm shocked that people would actually consider rounding up everyone of a certain race/creed/religion and have them deported or killed. That's a very "uncivilized" concept (no offense to your family).
HoreTore
10-19-2007, 21:24
I'm shocked that people would actually consider rounding up everyone of a certain race/creed/religion and have them deported or killed. That's a very "uncivilized" concept (no offense to your family).
It's unfortunately not very uncommon among european nationalists.
My upper middleclass master of science father sometimes say things like that to, but he likes jews and hates muslims (want to expell them or shoot them). I don't take those empty threats seriously, and neither should I. He is a good man.
My uncle is a damn funny guy. When he is drunk on a familymeeting, he sometimes takes me away and starts talking, in this man-to-man voice, how muslims shall not be trusted, and that they can invite you to a dinner just to stab you in the back. :laugh4:
I don't want Islam in Sweden, but violence is not the answer. :drama1:
master of the puppets
10-19-2007, 22:46
Generally my family is very accepting of all races (Italian Grandpa and Irish Grandma, supposedly the two groups hated each others guts way back when:boxing: )and religions (agnostic Father and Catholic mother). But my dad seems to have a very set view of the middle east... and how it should be a smoldering wasteland of nuclear debris. I try to explain how those are people too, how most aren't terrorists, and how Europe and America were the people who screwed up the middle east in the first place. but he still harbors unconditional disdain... oh well.
The Celtic Viking
10-19-2007, 23:53
Happily enough, no, not in the sense of racism or nazism. The biggest run-ins I've had with relatives is when they've revealed themselves as supporters to my team's rivals.
My grandmother can be a little suspicious about Fins though, always blaming them when something goes bad (a little pet peeve of her's is the Swedish former hockey player Tommy Salo, whom she has repeated times called "a Finnish agent"), and she's not on too nice terms with Russians either. More than once she's warned me that at any time we may see Russians marching down on us. But she's 90 or 91 years old, so I can forgive her for that. She's actually quite amusing when she talks of that, especially how she's so rigidly set in the belief that Finnish people are really not to trust. :)
My brother can be a pain when it comes to morals, though. More than once has he gone and awoken our parents to complain about how I, and I actually quote here with no alteration except translation: "don't respect other people's wish to sleep". :laugh4:
Byzantine Mercenary
10-20-2007, 13:26
Regarding the Jews and Muslims, so this is very suited to the Back Room I think. Very odd, I was accused of being a humanist by my dad which is great cos I leapt on that statement and went 'Yes! I am a bloody humanist!', but still...
So, if I can recall correctly - My dad thinks Hitler was right in targetting the Jews, and equated their situation in Germany to the current situation with Moslems in Britain today, suggesting that British Moslems should be killed or expelled and their assets appropriated. I expressed my utter indignation at this to the point that the barman shouted out that he'd have to call the police if we continued - eek!
My sister is an evangelical Christian of persuadable morals and seems to think that the Moslems are out to create a Caliphate in her Yorkshire town. I have rather less-than-BNP morals, so the family didn't take too kindly when I suggested that they were perhaps stupid racists. I knew that my father had views aligned with the BNP when it came to Islam in the UK, but I had no idea he thought killing Jews was 'all right' if it meant the 'betterment' of the country in question..
So, has anyone else had to deal with relations who think they're right, despite their views being morally questionable and how did you deal with it? I've never had a barman threaten to call the police on me before (and I've never called my sister those names before either)! :o)
hmm my humble opinion is that when debating with someone with strong opinions it is best to remain incredably calm whatever they say. That way you can show how much their opinions are fueled by emotion rather then cold logic.
Also if they realy are christians they won't have a logical leg to stand on, all you need to do is quote:
Galatians 3:28 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society
[NIV at IBS] [International Bible Society] [NIV at Zondervan] [Zondervan]
''28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.''
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=55&chapter=3&verse=28&version=31&context=verse
Strike For The South
10-20-2007, 15:02
Im accepting of all races but I do think Im better thab you
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
10-20-2007, 22:16
May I ask if their sentiments are common in England? I find them somewhat surprising. Here in America, we tend to think of fascism and the holocost as something that is/was horrific.
I'm shocked that people would actually consider rounding up everyone of a certain race/creed/religion and have them deported or killed. That's a very "uncivilized" concept (no offense to your family).
No, they would be classed as "beyond the pale" my father is predudiced against non Westerners but it's worth pointing out that he's been all over the world and seen pretty much every colour and creed close up. I don't agree with the entireity of his analysis but his opinions do come from experience and they're not really severe.
To respond to the OP: It's worth remembering that all devout Muslims do in fact want to create a worldwide House of Islam in exactly the same way as most Christians would like to see everyone Christian. The only questions you need to ask are if you think it's likely and if it's a bad thing.
Geoffrey S
10-20-2007, 22:25
My English grandmother is kind of similar. She loves Jazz, Big Band Swing and Blues and calls black people 'negros'. Not because she means anything unpleasent by it, it's just that that's what she's always known them as.
Just as an aside, what would you call 'them' instead? I frequently use and have heard in use similar terms in Holland when referring to black friends without offense being taken; obviously not to strangers, but in the same sense as other distinguishing characteristics are used for other friends.
Justiciar
10-20-2007, 22:58
None of my kin have expressed racist or "unacceptable" views, at least not to my face. Though an old school friend who I encountered a few days ago has taken on board Neo-Nazi ethics since last we saw each other (about two years ago). Ejit even wears an SS badge on his collar. ~:rolleyes:
As far as family go, it's quite the reverse. They're mostly militant liberals.
My English grandmother is kind of similar. She loves Jazz, Big Band Swing and Blues and calls black people 'negros'. Not because she means anything unpleasent by it, it's just that that's what she's always known them as.
To the best of my knowledge, "negro" was not coined as a derogatory term. It derives from nigrum, the Latin word for black. It was the acceptable word for black people until the late 1960s. It's not offensive, just old-fashioned.
Crazed Rabbit
10-21-2007, 03:26
Still Lemur, I think most blacks in the USA would not take kindly to being called 'negro'.
Crazed Rabbit
I suspect most black people are sensible enough not to take umbrage at an 80-year-old granny saying how much she loves negro jazz, frankly. Times change, and we all make allowances for older folks.
Admittedly, it would be borderline creepy to hear a college student using the term. In much the same way it would be strange to hear a kid talking about those sizzlin' flappers giving us the high hat. Now you're on the trolley!
PanzerJaeger
10-21-2007, 04:43
My father is a closet Nazi. We've had several discussions about the Holocaust and Israel. While he doesn't doubt that 6 million Jews died in WW2, he contends that those deaths were from warfare and says ethnic groups of all kinds lost millions in the war. He's very pro-arab(they were on the Nazi side) and blames terrorism today on the Jews and Israel, much like the left wingers on this board. He's very smart and I can show him all kinds of "evidence" that he always has a rebuttal to.
However, he keeps his personal beliefs very personal and doesn't let it affect his business relations... kinda reminds me of one of those guys in that terrible Ben Affleck movie where Baltimore gets nuke with a swastika on the back of his watch.. :laugh4:
HoreTore
10-21-2007, 06:35
He's very pro-arab(they were on the Nazi side) and blames terrorism today on the Jews and Israel, much like the left wingers on this board.
I do believe we blame that on the good Mr. Bush and his colonial cronies.
CountArach
10-21-2007, 06:51
I do believe we blame that on the good Mr. Bush and his colonial cronies.
Yep, that's always where my blame has been put.
Banquo's Ghost
10-21-2007, 09:56
I do believe we blame that on the good Mr. Bush and his colonial cronies.
Not this (alleged) leftie. The blame for terrorism lies squarely with the terrorists - the young fools that think there is any justification for murder.
The conditions that foster such extremism are things some of us seek to understand (not excuse as some would allege) and thus to change. In so doing, we hope that the "need" to turn to terror tactics is reduced and eventually eliminated. Some of those conditions are needlessly perpetuated by the governments noted above, but by no means all.
Tribesman
10-21-2007, 11:03
He's very pro-arab(they were on the Nazi side)
Now I could have sworn that allied arab soldiers outnumbered axis arab soldiers by several hundred thousand . But of course
He's very smart :dizzy2:
...but hold on there were some Poles who aligned with Germany so that does mean that Poland was pro Nazi:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
ShadesPanther
10-21-2007, 11:49
However, he keeps his personal beliefs very personal and doesn't let it affect his business relations... kinda reminds me of one of those guys in that terrible Ben Affleck movie where Baltimore gets nuke with a swastika on the back of his watch.. :laugh4:
Sum of All Fears was originally about Arab terrorists doing it but they decided to change it to the old fashioned evil Nazi bad guys.
I havent really met anyone specifically racist here in Northern Ireland. But I have met a few extremely sectarian people. Who would be more than happy to kick out the other side.
I suppose the irony of it is that alot of them claim to be christians and especially ironic with Church of Ireland people (It's Protestant but is very close to being Catholic except for a few small differences).
To the best of my knowledge, "negro" was not coined as a derogatory term. It derives from nigrum, the Latin word for black. It was the acceptable word for black people until the late 1960s. It's not offensive, just old-fashioned.
I suspect most black people are sensible enough not to take umbrage at an 80-year-old granny saying how much she loves negro jazz, frankly. Times change, and we all make allowances for older folks.
Admittedly, it would be borderline creepy to hear a college student using the term. In much the same way it would be strange to hear a kid talking about those sizzlin' flappers giving us the high hat. Now you're on the trolley!
Ah ok. It was just from when she was talking about the singers she liked and she said "All the best musicians back then were ... well, we used to call them Negros but I don't think that's acceptable anymore."
So from that I just assumed it was considered offensive.
Well said Banquo.
Blaming terrorism on Bush is a bit weird since it existed long before him. :inquisitive:
HoreTore
10-21-2007, 16:03
Not this (alleged) leftie. The blame for terrorism lies squarely with the terrorists - the young fools that think there is any justification for murder.
The conditions that foster such extremism are things some of us seek to understand (not excuse as some would allege) and thus to change. In so doing, we hope that the "need" to turn to terror tactics is reduced and eventually eliminated. Some of those conditions are needlessly perpetuated by the governments noted above, but by no means all.
Lookie: http://www.alastairmcintosh.com/general/spiral-of-violence-camara.pdf
Mr. Bush would be responsible for the injustices of level 1 violence leading to level 2 violence.
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
10-21-2007, 17:45
Sum of All Fears was originally about Arab terrorists doing it but they decided to change it to the old fashioned evil Nazi bad guys.
I havent really met anyone specifically racist here in Northern Ireland. But I have met a few extremely sectarian people. Who would be more than happy to kick out the other side.
I suppose the irony of it is that alot of them claim to be christians and especially ironic with Church of Ireland people (It's Protestant but is very close to being Catholic except for a few small differences).
I think N. Ireland is intersting because the Troubles have fostered a situation where theological dispute cuts across most other boundaries. I heard that a Muslim group wanted to establish a Mosque in Belfast but the City Council basically "We don't need three sied to the arguement" and refused.
One thing I would say Panther is that as an Anglican Church the Church of Ireland is not like the Catholic Church, though it may appear very similar outwardly.
Tribesman
10-21-2007, 20:23
I heard that a Muslim group wanted to establish a Mosque in Belfast but the City Council basically "We don't need three sied to the arguement" and refused.
Thats strange since they have had one for the past 30 years .
Is what you heard along the lines of "are you catholic muslims or protestant muslims" ?
Lookie: http://www.alastairmcintosh.com/general/spiral-of-violence-camara.pdf
Mr. Bush would be responsible for the injustices of level 1 violence leading to level 2 violence.
Try reading a little deeper into history then just the current President Bush, blaming Bush is just to simplistic for how the cycle of violence as escalated.
ShadesPanther
10-21-2007, 23:01
I think N. Ireland is intersting because the Troubles have fostered a situation where theological dispute cuts across most other boundaries. I heard that a Muslim group wanted to establish a Mosque in Belfast but the City Council basically "We don't need three sied to the arguement" and refused.
The thing is the paramilitary groups hate each other but they also hate ethnic minorities. Although I don't think there is that big of a muslim minority here it's mostly Poles and Chinese.
One thing I would say Panther is that as an Anglican Church the Church of Ireland is not like the Catholic Church, though it may appear very similar outwardly.
I know they aren't catholic. They do consider themselves Reformed Catholics, though, they are Protestant. I'm merely just noting the irony of the people who go to CoI are usually the most vocal orangemen.
PanzerJaeger
10-22-2007, 03:15
Now I could have sworn that allied arab soldiers outnumbered axis arab soldiers by several hundred thousand . But of course :dizzy2:
LoL. You mean those under control of the British and French empires and mandates or those with real political viability?
IrishArmenian
10-22-2007, 06:08
Not this (alleged) leftie. The blame for terrorism lies squarely with the terrorists - the young fools that think there is any justification for murder.
Alright, now I'm convinced you can read my thoughts! :idea2:
HoreTore
10-22-2007, 06:55
Try reading a little deeper into history then just the current President Bush, blaming Bush is just to simplistic for how the cycle of violence as escalated.
Of course. But Bush is the current idiot, and the one who actually can change what he is doing. There's very little point in trying to get the world leaders of the 60's to change what they were doing, isn't it?
Tribesman
10-22-2007, 08:41
LoL. You mean those under control of the British and French empires and mandates or those with real political viability?
:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: What real political viability ?:dizzy2:
Thats strange since they have had one for the past 30 years .
Is what you heard along the lines of "are you catholic muslims or protestant muslims" ?
heh, that comment reminded me to one by an extremely right-wing, racist politician over here a while back (name of Pauline Hanson) to the effect that she didn't mind Muslims coming into the country...as long as they were Catholic :wall:
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
10-22-2007, 09:35
I know they aren't catholic. They do consider themselves Reformed Catholics, though, they are Protestant. I'm merely just noting the irony of the people who go to CoI are usually the most vocal orangemen.
They might be catholic in form but not really in substance, given that it was the Established Church until 130 years ago it's not really surprising that it is an enclave of Orangemen. The Church is Anglican after all.
Justiciar
10-22-2007, 17:40
I've recently been accused of having deep seated prejudices against Australians. That's what for get for trying to defend your nation in an argument, I suppose. :dizzy2:
May I ask if their sentiments are common in England? I find them somewhat surprising. Here in America, we tend to think of fascism and the holocost as something that is/was horrific.
I'm shocked that people would actually consider rounding up everyone of a certain race/creed/religion and have them deported or killed. That's a very "uncivilized" concept (no offense to your family).
I agree with ya, I found it incredibly shocking when I heard it uttered and no, I don't think it's too widespread a sentiment but then my dad was a young man when (predominantly) Pakistanis were coming to West Yorkshire to work in the mills and I think people of his generation in my hometown may have felt resentment and wanted to do something about it.
I tried to suggest that we're all the bloody same regardless of skin colour and creed when he accused me of being a dirty humanist :)
hmm my humble opinion is that when debating with someone with strong opinions it is best to remain incredably calm whatever they say.
Good advice. I tried sarcasm, an even more extreme view to highlight the stupidiy of his ideas and then started shouting when that didn't work, my bad!
Let's just say that the next couple of days following last Thursday night were rather strained and I didn't drink very much at all ;)
I think for future familial gatherings I'll stay well away from recent history and racial politics and talk about rugby or Formula1 instead....
...oh bugger!
Of course. But Bush is the current idiot, and the one who actually can change what he is doing. There's very little point in trying to get the world leaders of the 60's to change what they were doing, isn't it?
Again that is a too simplistic a view, and the lazy way out of an explanation on what is going on. Action - reaction has been ongoing for longer then you have been alive in regards to the current event.
President Bush's actions does not explain the events of 9/11 which is the event which caused his reaction.
HoreTore
10-23-2007, 07:09
Again that is a too simplistic a view, and the lazy way out of an explanation on what is going on. Action - reaction has been ongoing for longer then you have been alive in regards to the current event.
President Bush's actions does not explain the events of 9/11 which is the event which caused his reaction.
Uhm, yes. But what exactly is your point? Are you saying I should be complaining about why presidents who died long ago isn't doing anything to solve today's situation? Should I be aiming at making Reagan, for example, force a change in todays politics...?
And I do believe I said "Bush and his imperialist cronies", not just Bush.
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
10-23-2007, 09:50
You're not trying to force a change though. You're just complaining, calling Bush names is simply childish. You absolve yourself of any responsibility by blaming the leader of the foriegn nation.
Prodigal
10-23-2007, 11:39
The majority of generalised prejudices are propogated by ignorance.
Those in a position of power that choose armed conflict as means to an end simply exacerbate the problem by fuelling prejudice with justification.
That's my take on it anyway.
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