Saba Religion

[Ozymandias]

Wouldn't the Sabeans have practiced a form of Judaism (due to the Queen of Sheba's relationship with Solomon), rather than worship Baal?

[lobf]

I think it's a bit silly to assume that since sheba visited solomon once that the saba were jews.

[Ozymandias]

I think it says in the Koran that she became muslim (Jewish?) when she went there.

[Megas Methuselah]

So maybe she had. Does it also mean her kingdom(Queendom?) as a whole converted too? Not likely.

[lobf]

If she became muslim then she travelled into the future because muhammed wasn't born until the 600s or thereabouts.

[Megas Methuselah]

I think the Koran is actually referring to Judaism...

[QwertyMIDX]

Despite what the bible may or may not say about the Queen of Sheba, who may or may not be a Sabaean (although there is scanty evidence for female rule in Saba), the Sabaeans practiced a polytheistic religion with the god Almaqah being the most important by a fairly large margin. There are a few thousand inscriptions written by the Sabaeans themselves over the span of several hundred years that attest to it.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

I think we'd rather rely on archaeology and south arabian inscriptions and what they have to tell us about their religion. Stories about the queen of Sheba, related by hoopoe birds to king Solomon, are not quite as reliable in most of our opinion. (though if any team members disagree they are welcome to say so here :laugh4:)

[tapanojum]

She was a Buddist Monk!

[Ozymandias]

Oh, ok.

[Megas Methuselah]

Dang... I think the witch/"queen" should burn at the stake.
:mean:

[Mouzafphaerre]

I think we'd rather rely on archaeology and south arabian inscriptions and what they have to tell us about their religion. Stories about the queen of Sheba, related by hoopoe birds to king Solomon, are not quite as reliable in most of our opinion. (though if any team members disagree they are welcome to say so here :laugh4:)
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There's no problem in using positively available data, on the contrary it's the better way to go whenever possible. However, while talking about a story that's essential to some of the greatest religions, such expressions may sound, or transmit as derogatory and pejorative.

The right not to believe does not include humiliating believers.

Oh, I'm not meaning that you're humiliating Teleklos! But I know many trolls at these very ORG fora that qualify.

:bow:
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[Teleklos Archelaou]

Well, we aren't justifying or confirming or denying the importance or validity of religion or religious beliefs of modern day individuals, just putting forth some of the main criteria we use in assessing ancient south arabian religious practices. What I said does seem pretty accurate in regards to that.

[Mouzafphaerre]

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That's all OK. I was referring particularly to the hoopoe birds part. ~;)
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[Teleklos Archelaou]

I didn't make the bird part up. That's in the Koran and might be in the Targum. Solomon tells a hoopoe bird to tell him about the queen and that's where he gets the 411. :grin: Just search 'hoopoe solomon' and you'll find it. Here's a nice pic of the queen and bird chatting:
http://artscenecal.com/ArtistsFiles/QueenOfSheba/QueenOfShebaFile/QueenOfShebaPics/QueenOfSheba3.html

[Mouzafphaerre]

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I know the story pretty well. Actually...

:gah2: Never mind, I failed to make my point clear enough. Let's move on for Almakah's sake. ~D
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[Jaywalker-Jack]

At the time Semitic religions were not as rigid as they would later become. Before the Hebrews became truely monotheistic they worshipped (or at least accepted the existance and validity of) other Semitic gods, such as Baal, together with Yahweh. If the queen of Sheba adopted Yahweh as her primary deity it would not have meant a huge doctrinal change for her people or indeed for her.

[Zaknafien]

Indeed, the Hebrews themselves were fairly polythesitc even into periods of which the Bible would tell us they werent.

[different_13]

Wasn't it the Babylonian captivity that shaped Hashem as we know Him?
Some combination of El and Enki? (which would explain God being benevolent and vengeful, as one of these was a 'nice god' and the other an SOB).

I could be wrong of course.

Btw, how many Baals are there? (am I correct in thinking Baal means Lord, and there were several gods with the prefix? ie Baal-Moloch, etc?)

[Hooahguy]

Indeed, the Hebrews themselves were fairly polythesitc even into periods of which the Bible would tell us they werent.

indeed- my people behaved in shameful periods those days. such is the case of josaiah- he became a Ba'al teshuva- meaning he wasnt religious then he became religious- then he made everyone else destroy their idols by force, then the people hid their idols and worshiped them when the kings troops werent there.

he thought the nation was pure from idols, so he refused the egyptian king to pass through israel, and offered battle. to make a long story short, he was defeated b/c he thought the nation was pure & hashem was behind them. he was kiled and the egyptians shot 300 arrows into him. tis a sad story.


Yahweh
this is a bad english translation of the true word. the word should be "hashem" meaning "the name" (ha= "the", shem= "name")

[Zaknafien]

Quite. And, originally the Hebrew word Elohim is plural, referring to many gods, not just "The God".

[different_13]

indeed- my people behaved in shameful periods those days. such is the case of josaiah- he became a Ba'al teshuva- meaning he wasnt religious then he became religious- then he made everyone else destroy their idols by force, then the people hid their idols and worshiped them when the kings troops werent there.

he thought the nation was pure from idols, so he refused the egyptian king to pass through israel, and offered battle. to make a long story short, he was defeated b/c he thought the nation was pure & hashem was behind them. he was kiled and the egyptians shot 300 arrows into him. tis a sad story.


this is a bad english translation of the true word. the word should be "hashem" meaning "the name" (ha= "the", shem= "name")


I was under the impression YHWH means I Am That I Am, and that Jews say Hashem because it is forbidden to speak the name of God?

[Hooahguy]

well, that would be wrong anyhow. it doesnt, but the last u saif is true, but correct.

[abou]

2 points to anyone who knows what Israel actually means.

[Zaknafien]

"Struggles with God"

[Landwalker]

2 points to anyone who knows what Israel actually means.

Israel, n. A war-torn hellhole of no significant value, where the world's most publicly intolerant populations convene so as to slaughter each other in a tradition over a thousand years old.

Is that worth two points?

Cheers.

[Hooahguy]

2 points to anyone who knows what Israel actually means.

Israel is the alternative name for Jacob, given to him by the angel he wrestled at the banks of the River Jabbok (genesis 32:23). because the 12 tribes came from him, Israel is named after him.

[Landwalker]

Oh, we were going to semantic/etmological meaning.

I should still get at least a point.

Cheers.

[Hooahguy]

you get -2 because of that seemingly anti-semitic post. ~:angry:

[Landwalker]

you get -2 because of that seemingly anti-semitic post. ~:angry:

I don't see how that could have possibly been construed as anti-Semitic except by anyone specifically trying to find something to call anti-Semitic. Certainly, Israelis and Islamic terrorists happen to be massacring each other there now, but it started out with Christians and Muslims massacring each other, if you measure it from the First Crusade. Of course, that would be ignoring wonderfully tolerant events like Titus' sack of the city, pillaging of the temple, and imposition of pagan religious sites in the second half of the first century AD.

Cheers.

[Hooahguy]

oh. sorry. i thought u meant s/t else... my mistake..... :embarassed: +3 for you..... and a balloon... :balloon2:

[abou]

Israel, n. A war-torn hellhole of no significant value, where the world's most publicly intolerant populations convene so as to slaughter each other in a tradition over a thousand years old.

Is that worth two points?

Cheers.


Israel is the alternative name for Jacob, given to him by the angel he wrestled at the banks of the River Jabbok (genesis 32:23). because the 12 tribes came from him, Israel is named after him.

Well... I suppose you're both right, but the etymology of the word shows something different.

Israel, as in Isra El, literally means, "May El show his strength."

Little interesting tidbit for those who have a fancy in language. I'll go back to my corner in EBH now.

[Landwalker]

In a marvelous display of ignorance...

Who's El?

Cheers.

[abou]

El is sort of the Phoenician equivalent to Saturn/Kronos. Not so much in the child-eating part, but in that he was the father of many of the gods in the Semitic pantheon. In short, he was the Canaanite god of gods.

He also has a wicked sacred marriage poem.

[Landwalker]

Ah, I see. Thank you, abou. Very interesting.

Cheers.

[Mouzafphaerre]

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Used for the God in (in Hebrew) Judaisme.

There's a beautiful Sefardi hymn "Yetzav ha el".
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[Yitzhakofeir]

Quite. And, originally the Hebrew word Elohim is plural, referring to many gods, not just "The God".

Actually, no. That's not how Hebrew grammar works. Hebrew allows certain nouns to take plural form without actually being plural at all, and through this process the meaning is changed slightly. Eloh/Elohim is one of those nouns. If the noun were actually meant to be understood as a plural then the verbs connected to it would be plural, not singular.

Now, you may think I'm just pulling this "Some singular nouns can take Plural form" thing out of my ass, but here are some other examples;

The word Baal בעל in Hebrew means "Husband" in normal contexts, and the plural is regular ol' Baalim בעלים.
But Baalim, if used as a singular, with singular verbs would mean Owner, Like "He is the owner of the dog" is rendered
הוא הבעלים של הכלב

Other nouns that do this is Adon, in the singular means "sir" and is just polite, but the plural form Adonim, if used as a singular means lords or masters,

Another one off the top of my head is Behema (Basically "livestock animal/cow") takes the plural form Behemoth... And I bet you've heard of the Behemoth before!

Basically, what I'm getting at is that Hebrew is not English, so things that are clear cut in English sometimes aren't in Hebrew. So, remember, plurals don't always mean something is actually plural. (And just in case you're wondering how we tell when something is singular or plural when it comes to these odd nouns, it's easy, it's about the adjective and verbs the noun takes. In Hebrew we have singular and plural adjectives/verbs.)

[Moros]

Wow major necropost. And we're not even talking about the original topic. :(