Statistical Discrepancies?

[gran_guitarra]

Okay, first off, this is not made to criticize the EB Team. I want to understand certain discrepancies I've noted within the game with concerns towards Unit Statistics which seem incorrect to me.
I do not want to get the EB team to change them, just understand why the stats are placed as they are.

Point One:
I have noticed that Hypaspitai (Makedonian Royal Footguards), Baktrion Agema, and Indo-Hellenikon Agema are all have inferior stats to Indo-Hellenic Noble Hoplites.
The Indo-Hellenic Nobles posses 15 attack and 27 defense, and are cheaper than the others. To contrast, Hypastpitai have 12 attack and 29 defense, so they lose out to them. Baktrion Agema and Indo-Hellenikon Agema have 10, 27 and 11, 27 respectively.

Why is it that the Royal Guards have inferior combat capabilities to random groups of Nobles?

Point 2:
Samnitici Milites have the same exact equipment and combat capabilities of Pedites Extraordinarii, but for some reason have inferior attack and defense compared to them. Hastati Samnitici have better defense and attack than both of them. The attack doesn't bother me (a short spear is a deadlier weapon than a short sword by a long shot), but the armor does. The Samnite SPearmen have, as far as I can tell, a chest plate, a helmet, and a shield. The Samnite Elites have the same, though the shape of the shield is more reminicent of the Hoplon as compared to the Scutum-like shield of the Hastati.

How does the diferent shape of the shield justify having 3 defense less?


Afrikan Elite Infantry have 10 attack and 21 defense. A level 5 MIC is required for them (or was in .81, haven't played Carthage in 1.0 yet). This means that for a relatively mediocre unit (stats-wise) I have to invest 15k Mnai. Also, in .81 Elite Afrikan Pikemen and Sacred Band Infantry were only available in carthage, which means that unless they have had their recruitment zones expanded then Carthage's level 5 Factional MIC is worthless.


Why do some units with chain/scale mail have such different stats to others? Some, like the Scordiscisi Royal Guard (or whatever) I can understand, but others have me dumbstruck. One example is the Carthaginian elite infantry. Why do they have less defense than Lybian Thorakitai (cant remember the actual name).



Again, I do not want to change stats or anything. If the EB Team created these stats it was for good reason. I want to understand how these differences are justified.
If I think of more such diferences and incongruencies I will post them.

[Bootsiuv]

There might be a few oversights considering there was like 23000+ files added or changed.

[gran_guitarra]

That's okay, I just thought I'd mention it.

Like I said, one example is how Indo-Hellenic Noble Hoplites are superior to the Royal Foot Guards of various factions, or how Afrikan Elite infantry are inferior statistically to Lybian Thorakitai.


If they are oversights I hope that the Team fixes them soon. Anyway, thanks for the incredible mod. I must go try my new Epeirote strategy.

I have left a toke force in Ambrakaia just strong enough to defend it against Makedonia, and have taken the equivalent of a Full Stack to Italia to conquer Italy and defeat the Romans.

[keravnos]

Why is it that the Royal Guards have inferior combat capabilities to random groups of Nobles?

IG noble hoplites ARE the Baktrian Kings' foot part of his bodyguard, or Basilikon agema.-the Baktrian Hypaspists if you will. If you read the description you will see it is so. They were the most elite fighting unit of Baktria, better than Baktrion Agema which were the top "drafted" unit of Baktria. Mention of them is the "500 yavanas" who follow King Milinda or Menandros as he resides in Sagala when he met with the Buddhist monk Nagasena. They take part in the discussion, and even tell the King he is wrong, much like the hypaspistai or Etairoi would

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milindapanha

In Makedonia Basilikon agema (royal guard) = hypaspistai+etairoi
In Baktria Basilikon agema (royal guard)= Hetairoi kataphraktoi+Ind. Eugeneis hoplitai.

[QwertyMIDX]

We'll look into it, but it is worth noting that there's more to stats than what shows up on the unit card.

[gran_guitarra]

I understand that, but there are some that are completely dumb.

Afrikan Elite Infantry have practically the same equipment as Neitos, except they have more javelins, yet for some reason the most highly regarded and elite Carthaginian Mercenaries wouldn't be able to hold up to standard Gallic Heavy Infantry. Considering they are the best soldiers Carthage can field they should be superior to the average Lybian elite (Thoraktai), yet for some reason they lose out to these in armor, attack, missile attack, and number of soldiers (okay, that's pretty dumb, but still, those 2 extra soldiers make a diference). If they have any one advantage its morale, but that won't help them so much if they are all dead!

Another example is Rhomphaiaora. They have 10 attack and 21 defense. They do possess the effective against armor trait, but shouldn't a two meter sword deal more damage and be more lethal than a Pheraspide's Kopis? Pheraspidai deal 13 damage with their Kopis, which, correct me if I'm wrong, is also effective against armor (are all swords effective against armor except the Gladius?). THe defense I can understand (they look to be armored in bronze scale mail), but how can a 2 foot long kopis compare to a 5 foot long Rhomphaia?

These things just don't seem to match up, and I am trying to understand why. If they are mistakes (and in a mod with 23k+ files that is quite possible and forgivable), then I would hope they are fixed, and if they are not I'd like to know why they are the way they are.

[QwertyMIDX]

Lethality might be worth looking at for that 2nd question. The Rhomphaiaora have a lethality more than twice that of Pheraspidai.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Which will make them decent heavy-infantry all-round while the Pheraspidai are actually pretty weak for what you would expect going by the in-game stat display.

[Dram]

those elite thracian infantry are pretty sick. very high lethality + AP = dead enemy elites. in a custom battle (M/grassy flatland) i put them against a unit of neitos, who are usually very powerful due to their good stats plus high lethality (longsword), and the neitos got creamed. however i cant speak more highly of the celtic longsword units, they really kick ass against other infantry in most situations. the elite thracians are just one of a kind.

oh hey, and to gran_guitarra, in regard to elite african infantry, you have to remember that their swords are AP. that makes a pretty big difference. neitos do not have AP swords.

[abou]

Point One:
I have noticed that Hypaspitai (Makedonian Royal Footguards), Baktrion Agema, and Indo-Hellenikon Agema are all have inferior stats to Indo-Hellenic Noble Hoplites.
They do? Looking at the EDU I don't see that; unless I'm mistaken.

[Ruen0101]

I think the problem isn't he doesn't notice that almost all those examples of royal guards posses both swords and spears. Swords with lower attack and higher lethality and spears that actually have a higher attack then the Indo-Greeks. Also the spear attacks are -4 against infantry so the Indo-Greeks only really have a 11 attack against infantry.

[JeffBag]

The Carthaginian Elite African Infantry seems to have erroneous armor stats though; elite african pikemen, late liby-phoenicians and late libyans all have 12 armour, but elite african infantry have only 10.

[Dram]

i think you're right, their armor is visably identical to those other carthaginian units, which have 12.

[Pharnakes]

0.8, they had 14 IIRC, so someone must have been a bit over enthusiastic taking them down...

[Watchman]

Still, these days they have AP for their swords. I did wonder back in the earlier versions that their blades looked kinda falcata curvy, and apparently they indeed were... (oh bother, Dram beat me to that.)

Between that and their AP precursors they'll probably eat most Celtic elites for lunch, despite having 2 points armour less than they by rights should.

And Rhomphairophoroi vs. Pheraspidai ought to be pretty much quaranteed win for the former. Rhomphaias have pretty crazy lethality values plus AP, while the poor Pheras are stuck with the in comparision distinctly unimposing xiphos that clocks in at o.13 lethal and no AP...
:skull:
Eww, canned mincemeat. :sweatdrop:

[Pharnakes]

Yeah, elite phalignites must be about the only inf that stand a chance against those new romphia weilding thrakians.

[Watchman]

Not sure, those hardcase Briton champions with two-handed swords might give them a darn close run for the money. Large units of virtually unarmoured axe-swingers, like those mean boys from the Caspia-Black Sea mountain region with their crazy high defense skill, might also be a really cost-effective way to contain and wear down those rhomphaia nutters. Or just several units of those el cheapo light infantry with axes Asia Minor and the Black Sea area is liberally furnished with.

Or the lighter end of Iberian falcata-wavers for that matter, although IIRC they didn't come in too big units.

[gran_guitarra]

They do? Looking at the EDU I don't see that; unless I'm mistaken.


I looked at the unit cards in Custom battle.

Hypaspitai:
12 attack 29 defense
Baktrion Agema:
10 attack
27 defense
Indo-Hellenikon Agema:
11 attack
27 defense
Indo-Hellenic Noble Hoplites:
15 attack
27 defense
Still, I didn't read the description, and according to keravnos they were actually superior troops to the others historically, and used more for the kings guard than the actual Foot Guards.


About elite Afrikan Infantry, my problem with them is not their attack. Especially if they have AP swords.

My beef is with their defense. Stats-wise Lybian Medium Infantry have the better attack and equal defense, yet are armored in Leather armor rather than Chain Mail.
WTF?
THe majority of mail/scale armored units have 24 or greater defense, but the Afrikan elite infantry have only 22. This means that the best and most capable Carthaginian infantry unit would have lost to your average Samnite Medium Spearmen or Triarii, despite the fact that they were, historically, on a totally different level.
Frankly they should at least be equal, if not better, than Pheraspidai. Look at them. Re-enforced chain mail armor, metal helmet with cheek-guards, metal greaves, a shield reminiscent of the ones Augustan Legionnaires use. All of that, plus their, supposedly inmense, skill at arms, amounts to meagre 22 armor.
Shouldn't they at least have the same armor as Neitos, considering that the diference in armor is really not noticeable?
For a unit that requires a level 5 MIC they really stink. Most other factions have units with superior statistics from their level 4 MICs (case in point: Pheraspidai, Illyrioi Thorakitai, Hellenic Thorakitai, among various others). Unless Carthage has had its Afrikan Elite Pikemen and Sacred Band recruitment spheres expanded then their level 5 MIC is worthless. Ambakaro have better stats than them, along with Iberian Elite infantry, Kluddargos, Druids, Carnute, and various others.

and what about the Samnitici Milites thing? they are the exact same as Pedites Extraordinarii, but inferior statistically and cannot be recruited in as many places. Shouldn't they at least be marginally superior, to compensate for the highly reduced recruitment pool?

[Watchman]

The Indo-Hellenic Nobles have a bit of an issue with their primary weapon. ATM they're missing the sword attack that should be there and the other two users of the same model (Hypaspistai and Baktrion Agema) have, and instead have their secondary spear attack with the due high score to make up for the light_spear penalty in the primary slot. This has the odd effect of them fighting with their swords but using the stats for the spears in every respect.

The Elite Africans are missing two points of armour, as already mentioned.

And if you look at the heavy Samnites more closely you will note they're not equipped the same as the Pedites Extraordinarii, who have full bronze breastplates instead of that peculiar Samnite trilobate pectoral plate. And a tiny-ass ZOR never correlated to any particular superiority anyway.

[gran_guitarra]

Wait, so you're saying that there is a wierd bug-like thing that causes the Agemas to use their swords instead of their spears and use those stats for the unit cards, which the Indo-Hellenic Nobles do not have?


That is how I understood it anyway.
Sorry, I hadn't really noticed about the Samnite Heavies. Well, that does explain that, but not why the medium spearmen, who happen to have the same equipment, have 3+ defense (though I may be missing something).


About Afrikans:

THat would put them at 10 attack, +AP, and 24 defense. Not exactly what I'd expect of lvl 5 MIC material, but its acceptable (I still think they should be at least as good as Pheraspidai, if not slightly better).
Thank you for clearing things up.

[Watchman]

Wait, so you're saying that there is a wierd bug-like thing that causes the Agemas to use their swords instead of their spears and use those stats for the unit cards, which the Indo-Hellenic Nobles do not have?Nah. I mean that model has sword in its primary slot, and due skeletons too. The units using the model other than the Indogreeks are statted just fine - they've swords as their primary weapons, and spears as secondary. But the Indogreeks have the spear stats in the primary slot, and no sword stats at all - the result being that their models fight with the primary-slot swords and associated animations, but using the spear stats.

That clear things up ?

As far the Samnites go the sword guys have "stat_pri_armour 9, 9, 3, metal", and the spearmen "stat_pri_armour 9, 8, 3, metal" ie. one point less defense skill. No problem there.

[Moros]

There have indeed been some stat issues. We have three guys wrking on it, including me and watchman, so don't worry to much. However if you see a possible bug, you can still notify us.

The above stats however don't seem to be bugged at first sight.

[gran_guitarra]

Actually their unit card in the custom battle thing says they have 23 defense, whereas the Samnite Heavy Infantry has 20. So there is a problem there.

The stats are not bugged, they just don't add up.

So basically the only really screwy ones are Afrikan Infantry and the Samnites Mediums.

which should be (according to what has been discussed):

Afrikan Elite Infantry:
10 attack, AP swords
24 defense

Samnite Medium Spearmen:
14 attack
20 defense

[gran_guitarra]

Okay, checked the unit cards, and the stats are quite surprising.

Hypaspitai:
sword: 12 attack
spear: 17 attack
defense: 29

Indo-Greek Royal Guard:
spear attack: 15
sword attck: 10
defense: 27

Baktrion Agema:
sword attack: 11
spear attack: 16
defense: 26

Indo-greek Noble Hoplites:
spear attack: 15
defense: 27

[gurakshun]

Not sure, those hardcase Briton champions with two-handed swords might give them a darn close run for the money. Large units of virtually unarmoured axe-swingers, like those mean boys from the Caspia-Black Sea mountain region with their crazy high defense skill, might also be a really cost-effective way to contain and wear down those rhomphaia nutters. Or just several units of those el cheapo light infantry with axes Asia Minor and the Black Sea area is liberally furnished with.

Or the lighter end of Iberian falcata-wavers for that matter, although IIRC they didn't come in too big units.

The Casse longsword users are practically invincible to infantry that is not the gaesatae/galatikoi tindanotae. Any other infantry and most horsies that are not charging their back lose miserably, and factoring in the blacksmith/troop exp upgrades you surely have already by the time you can recruit the casse longsword guys, virtually unstoppable. And if you have alreayd conquered gaul by this time, the threat of the wildmen fanatics are gone too. The longsword guys can win entire battles by themselves with fire support to neutralize archers and spearmen support to neutralize cavs.