Which factions has units most similar to the Persian Empire?

[Respenus]

So, I've been playing custom KH games yesterday and I've noticed several maps that got my attention.

Thermopylae, under Mount Olympus and fighting near the great god myself, the Temple of Zeus (let's not forget Delphi).

So, as far as KH go, you can get units from that time period, but what would be the nearest thing to Persians. I've tried AS, but those bloody pikes killed all my man (that's for letting the cpu chose AI units).

Any ideas, comments would be appreciated.

[helenos aiakides]

Hayadazan, after the reforms

[russia almighty]

what units do the hay get post reforms ?

[QwertyMIDX]

Parthians work fine too. There are actually a fair number of persian regional units that a lot of factions get access too.

[Respenus]

Parthians work fine too. There are actually a fair number of persian regional units that a lot of factions get access too.

Who? :help:

I do know there are many with similar troops, but what did the old Persians use?

[johhny-turbo]

Who? :help:

I do know there are many with similar troops, but what did the old Persians use?
The description for Persion Archer-Spearmen says that they were the most used type of soldier used by the Persian Empire.

However the way the game works, I believe an army made up of a good deal of them would make short work of a hoplite army.

[CountArach]

Yeah, one of the problems with the RTW game engine really. An archer-spearman army would tear a phalanx army to shreds if you use it correctly. Ie, you don't just sit back and fire at will. You run around the flanks and rear and then fire at will.

[Beefy187]

If your not sure about what to put in your armies just go back and watch "300" :laugh4:

Persian spear men, some Persian heavy cavarly, Persian archer, Persian archer spearmen, some elephants, peasantish persian units.. Just add bunch of unit which contains the word "Persian"



I hope no one takes this seriously:sweatdrop:

[Respenus]

So, to make the life of everyone harder, what would a historical EB configuration for Thermopylae look like?

Yeh, I like to torture people :whip:

[russia almighty]

Thats actually a good question .

[Karo]

the greek forces should consited of 1 or two groups of spartan hoplites and 3 or 4 other hopliet units.

The persian units is harder to tell. But I think it should be 4 archer units, Partian Spearmen, and some other units(like kinsmen cavalry and others) you should come out one stack. 20 Units total and 5 or 6 units of greeks. I coul be wrong :juggle2:

[kambiz]

It depends on what exactly you want to do :

-If you're going to fight a absolutely historical Thermopylae ,Then I think EB1 is not good choice for that ,As it begins at 272BC not 490BC ! Hegemonia:TW could be better choice if it'd been released ! Rise Of Persia is the closer mod to that era (Although I finishes before the time of Xerxes rise to power) and It is in Beta2 ...

-If you want a historical battle by whatever EB1 can provides you ,Then here is what I suggest as army composition of both sides :
1 Eastern mercenary general ; Although there are some differences between this one and a real Persian bodyguard unit at Thermopylae.
2 Asabârân-î Mâdâën ; As for Cavalry contingents of Immortal corps. However ,They should have Javelins !
4 Asabârân-î Haurâvatîsh ; These are closer to persian cavalry at the time of Thermopylae.
8 Nîzagân-î Êrânshahr ; Although they have lack of armor ,Experience and also Shield but still are the only choice in EB1 for Immortals !
4 Native Spearmen ; for Allied forces
1 Levy Hoplite ; For Greek allies
And as for Hellen side ,3 Spartan ,3 Greek hoplite and one greek general
As I said ,EB1 is not really good choice for hiistorical Thermopylae ,Especially Persian side is not close enough to reality. EB is good (Better to say excellent:2thumbsup: ) for depicting battles in the mod time span.

-But if you want a fantacy Thermopylae like a one million persian army and those things ... Then grab 1-3 Sprtan hoplite and put them infront of a full stack of Native Spearmen and Perian archer-spearman and watch them how they're being teared apart:clown:

Cheers

[Respenus]

Thanks kambiz!

I'll play with those figures a bit (6 spartans, need 300 of them :shame: ).

Will test them Friday. One more thing, which faction has all of them in the custom battle EDU, and are those names you have given names ingame or what?

[Laman]

Who? :help:

I do know there are many with similar troops, but what did the old Persians use?

From what I can tell a Achaemenid type army would probably be something like this:

Infantry would be mostly Nizagan-i Eranshahr (Archer-spearmen), with some pure archers (like Thanvare Payadag) and elite archers, like the Syrians. It would also have some standard spearmen like Gund-i Nizagan (I think that is their name now), as well as heavier spearmen like those Kardaka Arteshtar and Shipri Tukul and some greeks. Also maybe some unit of those eastern axemen.

Cavalry would be some light javelin-armed cavalry, a bunch of Asabaran-i Madaen and a core of Persian Heavy Cavalry. I don't think any horse archers, but not sure.

What one get is a rather good army actually. The only type of armies I immediately can see that would pose a real threat would be cataphract hordes, or armies with lots of good phalangites (they withstand arrows fairly well) and enough really good cavalry. Lightly armored foes would be shot to pieces rather quickly.

[QwertyMIDX]

Yeah, one of the problems with the RTW game engine really. An archer-spearman army would tear a phalanx army to shreds if you use it correctly. Ie, you don't just sit back and fire at will. You run around the flanks and rear and then fire at will.


I wouldn't call that a problem, its true historically too. That's why its so important for Phalanx based armies to guard their flanks, and its pretty much exactly what Peltasts were designed to do. It's not as though the Persians found it impossible to defeat hoplite armies, they did so on plenty of occasions. Tactics is a bit more complicated than rock beats scissors which beats paper which beats rock

[Watchman]

One thing you gotta hand to the Greeks in the Persian Wars is that they realized that too and tried to pick restricted battlefields whenever possible. Pretty simple but shrewd logic really - they mainly had heavy infantry specialised for frontal attack and worrisomely vulnerable at the flanks, the other guy had lots of cavalry, archers, some heavy infantry to defend the former, and light infantry. A narrow battleground negated most of the Persian advantages (mobility, numbers) and magnified the Greek ones (frontal shock proficiency).

[Sakkura]

Yeah, one of the problems with the RTW game engine really. An archer-spearman army would tear a phalanx army to shreds if you use it correctly. Ie, you don't just sit back and fire at will. You run around the flanks and rear and then fire at will.
With a properly designed Thermopylae battlefield that would be impossible. The field at Thermopylae was so excellent for the Greeks because it was a very narrow chokepoint between the sea and the mountains. Once the Persians found a way to bypass the chokepoint, the Greek force was doomed.

[Hooahguy]

but in EB... that map doesnt really have a "choke point" its more of a wide open area......

[Bootsiuv]

And considering some of the grades i'v fought battles on....it's impossible to make. You could still have guys running up and fighting on vertical walls. I've actually had battles that took place on slopes with grades on an 80 degree angle. :laugh4:

[Watchman]

And it gets pretty grim once one side gets missile troops lodged up there... Still, what you really gotta wonder about is the horses. They crossbreed those with mountain goats or something ? :beam:

[The Persian Cataphract]

There are actually four factions to choose depending on "style"; The Achaemenid military machine was highly diverse and included combined, and sometimes compound elements. The Seleucids bear the historical crown of succession and they do retain the diverse formula quite well; The Arche Seleukeia features, no doubt, the most vast roster of units possible to field, fostering heavy cavalry, chariotry, elephantry and the newest addition of phalangite warfare. As such the spirit of diversity and the idea of tactical "completeness" and option is the most secure in this faction.

Hayasdan, thanks to its reforms will inherit almost everything that Pahlava may muster, including all Iranian infantry, and almost all Iranian cavalry, and will field a vast spectrum of infantry and cavalry to fill the military need. This idea is however highly hypothetical (Though not unlikely) and plays more on Armenia's Orontid/Yervanduni/Arvandîg dynasty and their Achaemenid affiliation, the expansionism of the Artaxiads, and Armenia's rather oft-repeated status as a "Persianate". Like the Seleucids they will play on the diversity factor, though less, and more emphasis on Eastern warfare, but also bringing up their own flavours of warfare, in particular their unique heavy infantry.

Pontos is another candidate; They may be considered the midget of the Seleucids with an identity crisis ~:joker:. They also have got a wide range of troops, some emphasis on heavier cavalry, heavy infantry in the form of swordsmen, hoplites and phalangites; What is more hallmarking to them is their interaction with the Galatians, giving another flavour to the troop diversity not previously present in the Achaemenid worldly order.

Last, but not least, the historical torch-bearer of the Persian Empire; Pahlava. While they are entirely all about horse-archery and heavy cavalry, they were not strangers to infantry at all, but restricted them for mainly garrison duty. They will get everything the Iranian Plateau will offer by native terms, so they too has the basic availability of local diversity, like the other factions; Less so in Caucasia, and entirely scrapping chariotry, fostering traditions of archery and equestrian arts. What they lack in availability of Celtic troops and foreign unique shock elements, they get in additional supplies of nomadic horse-archery, heavy cavalry and an extended availability of Indian troops. It is far easier to chart this out through cultural spheres in a map. In my opinion it is a matter of taste; The AS and Pontos provide a Graeco-Macedonian and Galatian twist to the Achaemenid military machine, Hayasdan provide a plan of preservation in accordance to their own local customs while the Pahlava almost entirely focus on two equestrian paragons for field battles, retaining Achaemenid-style infantry for garrison duty.

There are of course factions like the reformed Saka or even Baktria, but I think of them as more unique and rather more "influenced" by the previous system rather than inheriting it.

[johhny-turbo]

It depends on what exactly you want to do :

-If you're going to fight a absolutely historical Thermopylae ,Then I think EB1 is not good choice for that ,As it begins at 272BC not 490BC ! Hegemonia:TW could be better choice if it'd been released ! Rise Of Persia is the closer mod to that era (Although I finishes before the time of Xerxes rise to power) and It is in Beta2 ...

-If you want a historical battle by whatever EB1 can provides you ,Then here is what I suggest as army composition of both sides :
1 Eastern mercenary general ; Although there are some differences between this one and a real Persian bodyguard unit at Thermopylae.
2 Asabârân-î Mâdâën ; As for Cavalry contingents of Immortal corps. However ,They should have Javelins !
4 Asabârân-î Haurâvatîsh ; These are closer to persian cavalry at the time of Thermopylae.
8 Nîzagân-î Êrânshahr ; Although they have lack of armor ,Experience and also Shield but still are the only choice in EB1 for Immortals !
4 Native Spearmen ; for Allied forces
1 Levy Hoplite ; For Greek allies
And as for Hellen side ,3 Spartan ,3 Greek hoplite and one greek general
As I said ,EB1 is not really good choice for hiistorical Thermopylae ,Especially Persian side is not close enough to reality. EB is good (Better to say excellent:2thumbsup: ) for depicting battles in the mod time span.

-But if you want a fantacy Thermopylae like a one million persian army and those things ... Then grab 1-3 Sprtan hoplite and put them infront of a full stack of Native Spearmen and Perian archer-spearman and watch them how they're being teared apart:clown:

Cheers
Weren't there chariots at Thermopylae and one Xerxe's brothers died while fighting in one?

Or am I just crazy or something

[johhny-turbo]

And considering some of the grades i'v fought battles on....it's impossible to make. You could still have guys running up and fighting on vertical walls. I've actually had battles that took place on slopes with grades on an 80 degree angle. :laugh4:

Masada would of been a cakewalk for the Romans according to RTW.

Unless it's in EB since the Jews would be spamming slingers.

[TWFanatic]

but in EB... that map doesnt really have a "choke point" its more of a wide open area......
I've always wondered about that. I thought Thermopylae was a small pass with the coast on one side and cliffs on the other. Why is the EB map just a normal hill?

[TWFanatic]

Anyone know the answer?

[Sakkura]

Anyone know the answer?
Because RTW sucks too much to make a real Thermopylae map doable I guess.

[madmatg]

if i remember right from playing the Therm. map it looks like at the very end of the map on one side you can see the hot gates but they are outside the magical red box i think, we tried a therm. battle online and th greeks were quiickly slaughtered as they had no access to them hot gates lol

[helenos aiakides]

I thought the greeks had substantial units of peltasts covering the phalanx's, though they are often ignored, i think because a peltast is nowhere near as heroic as a hoplite

[Kurulham]

I thought Thermopylae was a small pass with the coast on one side and cliffs on the other.
2500 years ago, it was. Now it's about a mile and a half wide, IIRC; sedimentation has built up the shoreline over the years.

Not sure how the maps are made but if people are working off of modern atlases/satellite pictures this could have something to do with it.

[TWFanatic]

2500 years ago, it was. Now it's about a mile and a half wide, IIRC; sedimentation has built up the shoreline over the years.

Not sure how the maps are made but if people are working off of modern atlases/satellite pictures this could have something to do with it.
EB starts only 208 years after the most famous Battle of Thermopylae.

[cmacq]

2500 years ago, it was. Now it's about a mile and a half wide, IIRC; sedimentation has built up the shoreline over the years.

Not sure how the maps are made but if people are working off of modern atlases/satellite pictures this could have something to do with it.


please read

The Pass at Thermopylae, Greece
John C. Kraft, George Rapp, Jr., George J. Szemler, Christos Tziavos, Edward W. Kase, in Journal of Field Archaeology, Vol. 14, No. 2 (Summer, 1987), pp. 181-198

[Cyclops]

Thermopylae IRC was fought by Spartans holding a wall, with 300 of their own elites (in EB terms KH General's Bodygyuard inf)

The overall force was about 4000 men, including 400 Corinthians, 400 Thebans and IIRC Thespians as well as a gaggle of freed helots-skirmishers I guess. The Helots, Thespians and the treacherous Thebans stayed to the bitter end with the 300).

The Free Greeks held the wall against the Persian's forces rotating in the line to keep fresh, and descended from time to time to wreak havoc on their attackers. Once the flank path was carried the Free Greeks split, and the remnant drew up on the mound, which is (I guess) the phase depicted on the RTW map.

*edit: I just checked, the Spartans and Thespians retreated to the mound after Leonida's death: I still think they drew up inside the pass rather than atop the wall once surrounded *

A "realistic" Thermopylae would need to be scripted out the wazoo: a frontal assault on a wall, followed by Persian flank reinforcements (causing half the Greeks to break).

For a "realistic" end-game Thermopylae, you could have a max experience KH General (=the 300), one reasonably beefy Hoplite unit (=the Thebans/Thespians) and one unit of basic skirmishers(=the Helots). On the other side a huge force of Archer-spearmen/patopidae/Indian spears etc etc, one or two cav suggested above (not used much in this battle) and a unit or two of powered up (maxed?) Parthian spear to represent the remanants of the Immortals or Medes.

Although the Persian forces would only represent a fraction of the whole army, they would convincingly represent that fraction worth wasting on a mere holding action. House rule could be you gain a Convincing victory if you rout the Spartans hand-to-hand, marginal victory if you shoot 'em to death, and if the Persians rout, well, you know there are another 10 stacks queued up to bury the Spartoi but they have acheived their heroic victory condition of "sharing their culture all morning".

[Kurulham]

EB starts only 208 years after the most famous Battle of Thermopylae.
I know, my point is that if the in-game map doesn't match the historical terrain they might be basing it on the modern terrain, which is significantly different.


please read

The Pass at Thermopylae, Greece
John C. Kraft, George Rapp, Jr., George J. Szemler, Christos Tziavos, Edward W. Kase, in Journal of Field Archaeology, Vol. 14, No. 2 (Summer, 1987), pp. 181-198
I had a response to this but then I calmed down. Instead I'll just point out that I live on a military base in Japan and as such do not have access to the Summer 1987 issue of the Journal of Field Archaeology.

[cmacq]

I know, my point is that if the in-game map doesn't match the historical terrain they might be basing it on the modern terrain, which is significantly different.


I had a response to this but then I calmed down. Instead I'll just point out that I live on a military base in Japan and as such do not have access to the Summer 1987 issue of the Journal of Field Archaeology.

Indeed....

Θερμοπύλες or Θερμοπύλαι, Thermopylae in english or 'hot gates', the use of 'gates' meaning narrow passages (not one but three; west, middle, and east gates), and 'hot,' because there are several hot springs therein (between the west and middle gates, complete with a small marsh). Generally the pass runs west to east (not north to south) connecting Θεσσαλία and Λοκρίδα. Gulf of Malis to the north and Trachinian cliffs to the south. Although, the cliffs and hills were steep, they were also covered with very thick vegitation.

see

http://www.battle-of-thermopylae.eu/gallery.html

The Spercheius River, located a short distance to the west, runs into the Malis. The channel use to parallel the coast but a new course cuts almost due north of the west gate. The fact that hot springs are present indicates geological uplift. Between the Spercheius' silting, geothermal related uplifting, and several cycles of global climate change, over time has filled the bay extending the shore line more than a km to the north.

looking from east to west, see this;

http://www.livius.org/a/battlefields/thermopylae/thermopylae.JPG

see the road bed, just to the left, that's about where the 5th century shore would have been, klear?

At the time of the famous battle the shoreline was very uneven, dropped several meters to the waters of the Malis, and each gate or pass was very narrow (less than 100 meters wide, each). The middle gate was the pass defended, as here was the Phocian Wall.

The combination of marsh associated with the hot springs, as well as west and middle gates were the real problem for the Persians as these bottlenecks made withdrawals from engaging the Phocian Wall defenders impossible when counter attacked.

And then there is the reported site of the last stand

http://www.battle-of-thermopylae.eu/gallery.html

Again, I hoped that even the most casual observer, would not misconstrue my subtle nature. More questions?

[Sakkura]

I had a response to this but then I calmed down. Instead I'll just point out that I live on a military base in Japan and as such do not have access to the Summer 1987 issue of the Journal of Field Archaeology.
Lol, really?

I was wondering, does anyone know if history and archaeology have a website that collects peer-reviewed publications, like PubMed (see link) does for medicine, biochemistry etc.?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?db=PubMed
Every article has a publicly available abstract; a few have the full text available online for free, while most have the full text available online requiring a subscription to the journal in question.

[cmacq]

I was wondering, does anyone know if history and archaeology have a website that collects peer-reviewed publications,

not sure for history, but as for archaeology, not a single website



Every article has a publicly available abstract; a few have the full text available online for free, while most have the full text available online requiring a subscription to the journal in question.

i looked and in this case, yes

see

http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0093-4690(198722)14%3A2%3C181%3ATPATG%3E2.0.CO%3B2-V

Kurulham
don't get mad... get smart