Turk troops ambushed by Kurd rebels [Archive]

Boyar Son

10-21-2007, 18:23

https://home.secureapp.att.net/bellsouth/s/editorial.dll?redirectpage=1&arg=player&_pgoffset=599&articleid=5478984&only=y&media10=mms://media.bellsouth.net/wmp/ap/1021dvs_turkey_kurds_2000.wmv

http://www.att.net/s/editorial.dll?pnum=1&bfromind=7409&eeid=5478984&_sitecat=599&dcatid=0&eetype=article&render=y&ac=0&ck=&ch=ne&_lid=135&_lnm=hm+mc+videos#

Read:http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/21/world/europe/21cnd-turkey.html?ref=world

Excerpt:

A group of Kurdish fighters moved into Turkey from northern Iraq, the Turkish military said, and attacked Turkish soldiers based near the town of Hakkari, about 25 miles from the border, in three different locations, killing 12 and injuring another 16. Turkish soldiers then struck back, firing from helicopters and from the ground, killing at least 23 militants, according to the military, which provided its account in a statement.

In a statement on a Kurdish website, the militants said they captured eight Turkish soldiers, but the claim could not be substantiated.

Boyar Son

10-21-2007, 18:31

EDIT:since mods wont let me on the other post

at the end is a refence I think that Kurdish regional gov't (along with kurd rebels) and Turkey are going to have "physical" disagreements.

:tnt:

“We are not going to be caught up in the P.K.K. and Turkish war,” said Mr. Barzani, the president of the Kurdish regional government in Iraq, Reuters reported, “but if the Kurdistan region is targeted, then we are going to defend our citizens.”

IrishArmenian

10-21-2007, 19:34

What the hell?!
Never go on the offensive in these situations. You put your people in grave danger. Extremists always show dire disrespect for the life of the people they allegedly represent.

Ronin

10-21-2007, 20:07

What the hell?!
Never go on the offensive in these situations. You put your people in grave danger. Extremists always show dire disrespect for the life of the people they allegedly represent.

that´s because extremists never represent the people they claim to represent.

IrishArmenian

10-21-2007, 22:49

that´s because extremists never represent the people they claim to represent.
Exactly!

ShadesPanther

10-21-2007, 23:42

that´s because extremists never represent the people they claim to represent.

and they want more people to "represent"

Geoffrey S

10-22-2007, 09:56

Jeez, they're practically inviting the Turkish army to cross the border in retaliation. If nothing else that should make clear to the government that it's probably not the best of plans...

Tribesman

10-22-2007, 11:19

Jeez, they're practically inviting the Turkish army to cross the border in retaliation. If nothing else that should make clear to the government that it's probably not the best of plans...
Of course they are inviting the Turks , the Kurdish autonomous government has said it will use its own armies to fight against Turkey in that case . The PKK consider that as backing for their actions , they go even further when a senior PKK military leader says that the US led coilition will be obliged to join in the fight on their side ...crazy world eh .

Now if the Pershmerga fight against a neighbouring State in order to support the creation of a Kurdish homeland encompassing the territorial claims the PKK want will the Iraqi government and its army go to war with the Pershmerga as the claims cover part of its territory ?
If so which side will the coilition take ?
Will they join a communist insurrecction against their longtime ally and the new "democracy" they spent a fortune trying to form ?
Now if Turkey escalates beyond its usual cross border shelling will Iran do the same against the PKK allied PEJAK or will it just keep on with the shelling and sit back and laugh at the mess ?

Well.... we could also consider the possibility of Syrian involvement due to what they have been saying about the situation...but hey its complicated enough already isn't it .:shrug:

Still every cloud has a silver lining , at least we can laugh at the oil companies that went against State Dept. advice and paid for oil deals with a "government" in the absence of legislation securing those oil deals and a real possibilty that the government and its control of the oil may not exist much longer .

LeftEyeNine

10-22-2007, 12:11

Around 10 of our soldiers are said to be taken as captives as well. 32 terrorists had been hunted on their way back. And this clearly shows, and according to my friend's opinion who came from his 1-year military draft which took place to a very close station there, there must be around 100 of them to attempt this. They have blown up a bridge first, to cut off any backup to where they ambushed.

Beyonce's concert for the anniversary celebrations of Fenerbahçe sports club and the entertainment programmes of the 44th Antalya Golden Orange Movie Festival have been cancelled due to the respect to our martyrs and to share the grief of whom they were taken away from; their parents, fiancées, lovers, spouses, children, babies...argh..

Damn. I'm in serious need of some rifle.

P.S. On the hoooooly right granted by the "freedom of speech", Roj TV -once requested and eventually rejected for its banning by Erdoğan from the prime minister Anders Rasmussen,(which had created a minor political crisis back then) broadcasting from Denmark is celebrating this ugliness and are calling the Kurds to arms in a case of cross-border operation.

Democracy me harder next time.

Fragony

10-22-2007, 14:22

Good luck to your guys, what a mess. :no:

Lemur

10-22-2007, 19:42

Some developments that should make everybody nervous:

Iraq's putative leader says, what, me stop them? (http://theglitteringeye.com/?p=3242)

Asharq Al-Awsat: The Turkish Government wants you to arrest their leaders who are present on Iraqi territory.

Talabani: We cannot do that. How can we arrest the leaders who are present in the mountains and surrounded by thousands of men? The Turkish army, with all its power, cannot do that. How can we do it?

Asharq Al-Awsat: What, then, does Nuri al-Maliki mean by his comment about eradicating their bases?

Talabani: I do not think that this is accurate talk. The prime minister and I have the same view, namely, that we cannot send sufficient Iraqi forces to fight the PKK.

I think the correct response on reading this should be something along the lines of "Oh :daisy: "

Meanwhile, NATO's charter says that all signatories are now obliged to aid Turkey. (http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/10/iraq_kurds_invade_turkey_kill_17_/) Militarily.

Could the PKK have chosen a worse time to do this? (Not to imply that there would ever be a good time, mind you.)

Pannonian

10-22-2007, 20:16

The Wizard

10-22-2007, 20:21

Meanwhile, NATO's charter says that all signatories are now obliged to aid Turkey. (http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/10/iraq_kurds_invade_turkey_kill_17_/) Militarily.Good luck with that. NATO ignored all the drama between Greece and Turkey (which, both countries being members, should've been way more life-threatening) over the years and it'll do the same with this.

Husar

10-22-2007, 20:41

Good luck with that. NATO ignored all the drama between Greece and Turkey (which, both countries being members, should've been way more life-threatening) over the years and it'll do the same with this.
Most likely, but then it would be kinda funny in a way if all NATO members started fighting the PKK now. It's most likely not what the PKK wanted to achieve. ~D

IrishArmenian

10-23-2007, 00:09

Damn. I'm in serious need of some rifle.
Do you live in Eastern Turkey? I thought you lived in Western Turkey. Good to hear from you; I hadn't in a while.

LeftEyeNine

10-23-2007, 00:56

Do you live in Eastern Turkey? I thought you lived in Western Turkey. Good to hear from you; I hadn't in a while.

I'm in Izmir, nearly the Western tip. Does it matter where I live ?

Thanks for your consideration, hope all is well with you, deliver my greetings to Mrs. Pelosian :2thumbsup:

Don Corleone

10-23-2007, 01:26

Well, they've lost any sympathy I might have had for them. I don't much care for the PKK, but ethnic minorities in search of an autonomous homeland* tend to strike a resonant chord with me. Given the way the Kurdish leaders are acting, and not arresting PKK leaders within their territory, they've proven Turkey 100% correct. If the Kurds are going to use an automous homeland as a base from which they can launch attacks into Turkey, Iran, or Iraq proper, and claim that they have no control over their citizens, then perhaps it is wildly premature to discuss an automous Kurdish state. One of the first rules of having your own state is that you are responsible for the actions of your citizens. If the Kurds cannot, or I suspect will not keep their extremist elements in line, then they have shown they cannot handle the responsiblity yet.

On a more personal note, I am sorry for the loss of life. The lost soldiers, and their grieving families, will be in my prayers. Turkey has always been a good friend to the U.S., and frankly, I'm getting a bit disgusted with our own inaction on this matter. :shame:

*Nothing special about Kurds, or negative against Turkey. I agree with the line of legal reasoning that Native American reservations should be treated as internal micro-states with autonomy, and I really don't like it when local authorities try to impose their own will on them... like the local sheriff trying to raid on-reservation tax-free tobacco businesses.

IrishArmenian

10-23-2007, 04:40

I'm in Izmir, nearly the Western tip. Does it matter where I live ?

Thanks for your consideration, hope all is well with you, deliver my greetings to Mrs. Pelosian :2thumbsup:
I thought you were procuring a firearm because your area was going to get more violent, but now I see that it is just for defense against a possible terrorist attack.
I'm not even an American citizen.:oops:
If I see her, I shall but California is large.

LeftEyeNine

10-23-2007, 14:57

I thought you were procuring a firearm because your area was going to get more violent, but now I see that it is just for defense against a possible terrorist attack.
I'm not even an American citizen.:oops:
If I see her, I shall but California is large.

It's not about defense. I want to die where my brothers are risking their lives right now. :2thumbsup:

IrishArmenian

10-23-2007, 15:15

Oh, I believe joining the military requires no ownership of a firearm.

Tribesman

10-23-2007, 16:15

I want to die where my brothers are risking their lives right now. :2thumbsup:

Dulce et Decorum est........~:rolleyes:

LeftEyeNine

10-23-2007, 17:23

Oh, I believe joining the military requires no ownership of a firearm.

I fail at my left eye, wise man. :2thumbsup:

Husar

10-23-2007, 17:53

Dulce et Decorum est........~:rolleyes:
:yes:

warning, spoiler may contain not-so-nice descriptions
Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares2 we turned our backs
And towards our distant rest3 began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots4
Of tired, outstripped5 Five-Nines6 that dropped behind.

Gas!7 Gas! Quick, boys! – An ecstasy of fumbling,
Fitting the clumsy helmets8 just in time;
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling,
And flound'ring like a man in fire or lime9 . . .
Dim, through the misty panes10 and thick green light,
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.
In all my dreams, before my helpless sight,
He plunges at me, guttering,11 choking, drowning.

If in some smothering dreams you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud12
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest13
To children ardent14 for some desperate glory,
The old Lie; Dulce et Decorum est
Pro patria mori.15

as found here (http://www.warpoetry.co.uk/owen1.html)

rotorgun

10-23-2007, 18:05

Thanks Husar, I haven't read that poem since my days as a youth in Ms. Sonea's English Literature Class in high school. Clive Owen sure had a way of painting a picture with words, no?

Pannonian

10-23-2007, 19:58

Thanks Husar, I haven't read that poem since my days as a youth in Ms. Sonea's English Literature Class in high school. Clive Owen sure had a way of painting a picture with words, no?
Excuse me, that's Michael Owen you're talking about there. Clive Owen's the footballer.

Geoffrey S

10-23-2007, 19:59

Well, looks like Iraqi Kurds have to chose between whether they're Kurds or Iraqis. Again.

Lemur

10-23-2007, 20:29

Some good news (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7057753.stm), maybe, finally ...

Husar

10-23-2007, 20:57

Excuse me, that's Michael Owen you're talking about there. Clive Owen's the footballer.
It's not like I knew better but how about we read the big bold letters in the link I gave to the poem which say: WILFRED OWEN. ~;)

rotorgun

10-24-2007, 20:38

Husar, you are So Right! I can't believe I typed Clive instead of Wilfred. :clown: I must have had some kind of subliminal subconcious moment. (Pardon me while I go to the Bahamas for a sec....) :laugh4:

Wilfred Owen it is indeed. I still meant what I wrote about. It is a great poem, and I wish more of our world leaders would spend a bit more time reading such insightful works. Maybe they wouldn't be so quick to send soldiers in harms way.

Louis VI the Fat

10-24-2007, 21:31

Excuse me, that's Michael Owen you're talking about there. Clive Owen's the footballer. I think this is as confusing to the audience as Owen's efforts lately. ~;)

IrishArmenian

10-24-2007, 23:40

I fail at my left eye, wise man. :2thumbsup:
My apologies.

Louis VI the Fat

11-20-2007, 19:29

Thread resurrection!

Meanwhile, the released Turkish troops probably pray they were still in the hands of the PKK. Turkey is not amused they didn't do their patriotic duty and died as martyrs:

Official: Troops should have fought to death
Last week, Justice Minister Mehmet Ali Sahin suggested that the soldiers should have fought to the death rather than allowed themselves to be captured.

“I could not accept the fact that these soldiers went with the terrorists that night after the operation,” Sahin said. “Our soldier is the one who ought to risk falling as a martyr while protecting his homeland.”

Sahin stopped short of saying the men had surrendered, however.

Shortly after the soldiers’ return to Turkey, local media here said that they were being interrogated by military authorities. They are being held in a military prison in the eastern province of Van, and it was not immediately clear when they would appear in court again.

Korkmaz said the disobedience charges carry a sentence of up to 10 years in prison. Charges of escaping abroad would add another five years, he said.More in this
link. (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21744449/)

Husar

11-20-2007, 20:23

What a great idea. :dizzy2:

He should say that again in the face of their families. :idea2:

Louis VI the Fat

11-20-2007, 20:30

What a great idea.
It is not an idea. The troops ARE in a Turkish military prison. Facing up to ten years imprisonment for “not properly fulfilling their national duty.”
Legal assistence was disallowed to them. Their lawyer was not allowed acces to their court files.

He should say that again in the face of their families.
Ibrahim Cagan, the father of one of the soldiers, said Sunday he did not know his son was imprisoned until he saw news reports, and that he and his son had not been able to communicate since his release by the rebels.

KrooK

11-20-2007, 20:37

Turkey should stop playing with reberls and show them that Turkey is one of the strongest country into Middle East area.

Husar

11-20-2007, 21:28

It is not an idea. The troops ARE in a Turkish military prison. Facing up to ten years imprisonment for “not properly fulfilling their national duty.”
I noticed that, but it all started with an idea somewhen that captured soldiers did not fulfill their duty so technically I'm right and you're wrong. ~;)

I mean who had the idea to define surrender as missing one's duty as a soldier? They're not worth more if they get shot, had they been in a superior position or so, then I'd let that count but they were ambushed, someone imprison the defense minister for having them take that route, he clearly didn't come up to his duty of choosing safe routes for his soldiers. :dizzy2:

Papewaio

11-20-2007, 23:18

What are the golden rules of leadership?

Lead from the front.
Don't ask from others what you have not done yourself.

Seamus Fermanagh

11-20-2007, 23:28

I mean who had the idea to define surrender as missing one's duty as a soldier? They're not worth more if they get shot, had they been in a superior position or so, then I'd let that count but they were ambushed, someone imprison the defense minister for having them take that route, he clearly didn't come up to his duty of choosing safe routes for his soldiers. :dizzy2:

This evaluation of one's own soldiers has a long history. Many (most? all?) "warrior" cultures viewed surrender as anathema and actively encouraged their soldiers to die rather than surrender.

Feudal Japan, Spartan Royal Guard, Knights Templar, et al.

Papewaio

11-20-2007, 23:36

And they all got beaten by tech + numbers in the long run, so while it makes for good stories it does not make for a great army.

Husar

11-20-2007, 23:46

This evaluation of one's own soldiers has a long history. Many (most? all?) "warrior" cultures viewed surrender as anathema and actively encouraged their soldiers to die rather than surrender.

Feudal Japan, Spartan Royal Guard, Knights Templar, et al.
Since you mention Japan, I guess we should expect the Defense Minister to commit Seppuku now since his soldiers were defeated in an ambush. :sweatdrop:

And like Pape says, it doesn't really help a lot anyway. It's pretty outdated and stupid IMO.

Papewaio

11-21-2007, 00:45

Agreed, it is what I meant by following the golden rules of leadership. He is ultimately responsible so he should lead the way and commit seppuku... that way he leads and doesn't expect others to do something he hasn't.

Of course he won't and he would be scandalized at the suggestion, so he shouldn't then expect it of others lower on the chain who get less rewards. The punishment for failure should be in proportion to the reward for success. As the minister he gets more rewards, the punishments for failure should be more as well. So if he expects to get off lightly then his men should get off lighter still. Anything less and he's a hypocrite.

IrishArmenian

11-21-2007, 02:24

What a load of flowersmilies! That is terrible! They were taken in an ambush! What would the politicians who made those laws do? Most likely they would beg for their lives and kiss the feet of their captors.

Ice

11-21-2007, 03:19

Turkey should stop playing with reberls and show them that Turkey is one of the strongest country into Middle East area.

Ah, the old brute force method.

That would be a horrible idea IMHO.

Boyar Son

11-21-2007, 03:50

Wonder how this will play out with the Turk troops.

Right now that gov't is lookin' pretty evil...

PanzerJaeger

11-21-2007, 06:00

Ironside

11-21-2007, 11:09

We would have to be privy to the combat reports of both sides (if they're taken) to gain an accurate understanding of whether these troops were in a position to resist or not.

It is very common in these situations that fear and uncertainty get the best of reality and unnecessary capitulation results.

Considering the formulation of what the Justice minister said, if he was in charge, we would probably would have a reuse of the word Hiwi in the area.

As he's not accusing them to surrender too easily, but to surrender at all...