help please

[banick]

can sum1 please inform me of exactly what i need to be able to trade overseas & to move armies overseas as i cant seem able to aclompish this.

thanks
Banick

[Noir]

Welcome to the org and the main hall banick - hope you enjoy your stay.

Briefly put:

To transfer troops accross water you need:

1. A port in the province of departure (not in the destination province)
2. A fleet in every sea region between the departure province and the destination province.
3. All sea regions need to be clear of fleets belonging to factions you are at war with - neutral fleets do not impact adversely.

To trade you need:

1. A port and trading post (or higher merchant bulding) in a (coastal) province that has goods for trade. Note that some resources worth nore than others and some provinces have many valuable resources as for example Constantinople and Venice.
2. An uninterupted by enemy fleets fleet netweork that links to provinces with ports belonging to other neutral or allied factions that do not have the same trade resource you are trading. If they do you don't make profit out of that patricular resource on that particular province. The best from that perspective is to trade with provinces that have no goods - it means you can sell them al your goods.

You cannot trade with provinces that belong to factions you are at war with.

Deep sea vessels obviously offer substantial economy and versatility in trading - since they shorten the "distance" your network needs to extend (need less ships).

Remember that the basic cost of fleet maintance cost doubles,triples etc.. for every additional sea region further from a port your factions controls. In light of this it is always fun and important to make colonies in far off places.

Noir

[banick]

thanks for the help. it was because of the same factionn i was trying to get onto had ships that were stoping me from getting on. also can sum1 please tel me if assasins can find & kill other assasins baceause i have had about 5 generals kiled in about 7 years

thanks

[Noir]

Hi,

you can get rid of enemy assassins in one of the following ways:

1. Built border forts in your provinces (upgrade of watchtowers) - they'll catch any invisible enemy agents (spies & assassins) in the province.
2. Keep an assassin in a province - he'll do the same job as a border fort and get valour up for every enemy assassin/spy he finds and executes.
3. Can do the same as in 2. with a spy (in addition he'll "police" the province for you).

Noir

[caravel]

3. All sea regions need to be clear of fleets belonging to factions you are at war with - neutral fleets do not impact adversely.
Remember that neutral or allied fleets prevent you from invading their faction's provinces. One of the main functions of fleets is to guard a faction's coastlines against surprise invasions from foe, ally turning traitor or neutral faction declaring war alike. I expect you know this though I'm adding it in here for the OP's benefit.

:bow:

[Noir]

Thanks for complementing/correcting mighty Cambyses - it is all but the most obvious and important things that do not find their way in paper :laugh4:

In addition to what Cambyses II says, fleets "guarding" home coasts prevent fleets of other factions to "see" the coastal province ie they act as counterspies in a way.

It follows that if one has a long coastline it always pays off to protect it - since factions with strong navy can access you virtually from anyplace.

The Almohads are particulalry vulnerable in that respect, especially since fleets tend to cluster in and around Gibraltar.

Noir

[caravel]

Also don't forget that camels can fulfill the same role if suitably equipped with rubber dingies.

:sultan:

And don't forget that Caravels are by far the best vessel (and I'm not joking).

:bow:

[Noir]

Originally posted by Cambyses II
Also don't forget that camels can fulfill the same role if suitably equipped with rubber dingies.

:laugh4:


Originally posted by Cambyses II
And don't forget that Caravels are by far the best vessel

I remember that somebody had a thread up in the .com relative to the stats of fleets; he was actually proposing that in coastal waters smaller vessels with higher speeds could outperform larger vessels with smaller speeds; so he was suggesting that in the later eras one is better off mixing his fleets in coastal waters in a naval stack, rather than making stacks full of slow and powerful vessels.

I think that he also proposed a "way" as to how the speed stat of fleets comes into the battle odds as well as the number of men, attack and defence.

Never confirmed it myself, although it might well be true.

Noir

[caravel]

:laugh4:



I remember that somebody had a thread up in the .com relative to the stats of fleets; he was actually proposing that in coastal waters smaller vessels with higher speeds could outperform larger vessels with smaller speeds; so he was suggesting that in the later eras one is better off mixing his fleets in coastal waters in a naval stack, rather than making stacks full of slow and powerful vessels.
In my experience speed only comes into effect where vessels are "escaping". This is why you and your prized Caravel fleet could spend half the night chasing a solitary Dromon around in circles. I'm also unsure about mixed stacks. I have read claims that a fleet is as fast as it's slowest ship, and counter claims that the fast ships stop and engage the faster vessels allowing the slower more heavily armed ships to attack and sink them.

Stacking ships as a whole appears to have no real benefits either, as you're simply providing a single target for the AI. I'm not sure how stacked ships perform, whether as a fleet, as a queue or otherwise. One theory of mine is that the lead ship is probably the only ship that attacks, but what it gains - stat wise - from having the other ships stacked under it is debatable. It may be that the lead ship utilises the other ships as "lives", and that the stack loses "lives" in the order of the lowest valour (for ships command) ships and upward. Ships appear to be much like agents, more like agents than armies in fact.

I think that he also proposed a "way" as to how the speed stat of fleets comes into the battle odds as well as the number of men, attack and defence.

Never confirmed it myself, although it might well be true.

Noir
Possibly though results of such tests often come down to a matter of interpretation.

:bow:

[Noir]

Originally posted by Cambyses II
In my experience speed only comes into effect where vessels are "escaping". This is why you and your prized Caravel fleet could spend half the night chasing a solitary Dromon around in circles. I'm also unsure about mixed stacks. I have read claims that a fleet is as fast as it's slowest ship, and counter claims that the fast ships stop and engage the faster vessels allowing the slower more heavily armed ships to attack and sink them.

Stacking ships as a whole appears to have no real benefits either, as you're simply providing a single target for the AI. I'm not sure how stacked ships perform, whether as a fleet, as a queue or otherwise. One theory of mine is that the lead ship is probably the only ship that attacks, but what it gains - stat wise - from having the other ships stacked under it is debatable. It may be that the lead ship utilises the other ships as "lives", and that the stack loses "lives" in the order of the lowest valour (for ships command) ships and upward. Ships appear to be much like agents, more like agents than armies in fact.

Yes the unsinkable dromon phenomenon - heh.

It is possible that it works that way experience says; that is only the top fleet in a stack engages singularly with the top fleet of the stack it fights - what i am unsure of, much like yourself, is what happens after one is sank; does then the calculation proceeds with the fleet that is next and so on, or does the whole stack goes to the bottom is indeed difficult to tell. If the latter is true then that would explain some sinkings of 3 fleets stacks versus one fleet that are rather frequent in a sense.

There are other indications that only the top vessels do fight theory might be true:

1. The engine stacks fleets from the strongest to the weakest (while it does not do so with troops).
2. It is statistically better to keep your fleets in the same region separate instead of stacked; if the "only the top fleet fights" engagement theory is true then this radically decreases the odds that all your fleets are gone in a jeffy, since there is a separate probability that needs to be overcome as many times as the number of single fleets per fleet rather than one time for all of them (stack).


Possibly though results of such tests often come down to a matter of interpretation.

Definitely - experience says that it equally might or might not be true - it is far from evident and it is difficult to run tests i guess unless, one saves a campaign that has a certain sea conflict arrangement and repeats tests on the spot using the saved game - i doubt that it'll be me though :laugh4: .

Noir

[caravel]

Yes the unsinkable dromon phenomenon - heh.

It is possible that it works that way experience says; that is only the top fleet in a stack engages singularly with the top fleet of the stack it fights - what i am unsure of, much like yourself, is what happens after one is sank; does then the calculation proceeds with the fleet that is next and so on, or does the whole stack goes to the bottom is indeed difficult to tell. If the latter is true then that would explain some sinkings of 3 fleets stacks versus one fleet that are rather frequent in a sense.
By "fleet" and "stack" I assume you mean what I refer to as "ship" and "fleet" respectively?

Anyone could be forgiven for thinking that the whole stack goes to the bottom if it loses though I am sure (I hope) that this is not the case. I have lost an entire fleet of about 8 Galleys to a single Caravel in the past. The question is: How does this happen? Does that caravel take on those ships one by one and is it's valour (called command for ships) determine it's success rate? After sinking the first ship it may gain valour, which would increase it's percentage chance of sinking the next, and so on. So as the Caravel works it's way through the enemy fleet, in theory, it "get's better" as it goes on. This may partially explain those huge 1 stack fleet losses.

There are other indications that only the top vessels do fight theory might be true:

1. The engine stacks fleets from the strongest to the weakest (while it does not do so with troops).

2. It is statistically better to keep your fleets in the same region separate instead of stacked; if the "only the top fleet fights" engagement theory is true then this radically decreases the odds that all your fleets are gone in a jeffy, since there is a separate probability that needs to be overcome as many times as the number of single fleets per fleet rather than one time for all of them (stack).
Yes. Having one big stack means that when that stack is attacked, every ship is engaged and must fight to the death. If you'd had them stacked in say three, two ship fleets then the enemy fleet could only engage one - leaving you with two fleets still in place - and actually having ships in a sea zone is what counts in MTW, not huge numbers. This brings about the question of attack vs defence. Attackers always seem to have the advantage. The defender can either run or fight - though running is only an option for the AI, as the AI knows the moves you've made and can react to them. The player doesn't have this luxury which makes escaping largely useless for any but the AI.


Definitely - experience says that it equally might or might not be true - it is far from evident and it is difficult to run tests i guess unless, one saves a campaign that has a certain sea conflict arrangement and repeats tests on the spot using the saved game - i doubt that it'll be me though :laugh4: .

Noir
I too have intended to run thorough tests but have never done it of course.

:bow:

[Noir]

Originally posted by Cambyses II
By "fleet" and "stack" I assume you mean what I refer to as "ship" and "fleet" respectively?

Yes.


Anyone could be forgiven for thinking that the whole stack goes to the bottom if it loses though I am sure (I hope) that this is not the case.

its hard to say, because up to a certain point the odds of a 3 fleet stack versus any single fleet seem better - yet not so better as to definitely conclude that stacking fleets does actually make them fight as a whole stack.


Attackers always seem to have the advantage.

Yes and no. In my experience wherever the conflict happens in a sea region i have a port the sucess rate of defence seems quite high.

But yes who knows - perhaps its better that we don't really know. I know that many people resented the trade and naval system in MTW, but i find it really satisfying in the sense that it has strategic/gameplay repercussions and also fleets/ships look very nice imho especially when they sail!

Noir