View Full Version : The Great Powers Convene a Congress on Belgium
Louis VI the Fat
10-23-2007, 13:19
Gentlemen,
*serves his esteemed guests the finest cognac*
Let's put an end to this, shall we?
It's been seven months now, and there's still no sign of a start of a beginning of any government anytime soon. How much longer can we, the civilised countries of Europe, stand idly by while madness and anarchy rule in the heart of Europe?
I say it is time we took our responsibility. Belgium, the 'bastard of nations', was created at the hand of the Great Powers. It should now end at our hands too.
Evidently, the hapless Belgian peoples, through centuries of foreign rule never having accustomed themselves to self-governance, have not progressed to our standard of civilisation yet. They are not fit for home rule yet. We, the Great Powers, should therefore cast aside our differences, prepare ourselves to nobly bear any sacrifices it may cost, and unite in sharing the burden of uplifting the Belgians out of their pitiful state.
I propose:
A) The 'plan Talleyrand' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talleyrand_partition_plan_for_Belgium). Belgiums neighbours divide the spoils assume shared responsibility over the Belgians, incapable of self-governance:
https://img89.imageshack.us/img89/7268/talleyrandpd7.jpg
B) A simple divide along linguistic borders. Bruxelles and surroundings will become - as a future plebiscite there will confirm: by the will of their inhabitants - part of the francophone area:
https://img86.imageshack.us/img86/9265/belgiquefl3.gif
C) The 'plan Louis':
Wallonia is liberated into France. Luxembourg is restored into its former larger borders, doubling its area and thereby creating a vast French speaking majority. Flanders will not join a United Netherlands, but will become independent.
Flanders and Luxembourg will in this plan remain small enough to be dependent on the....'guidance' of its neighbours.
https://img85.imageshack.us/img85/7250/planlouisoz8.gif
Banquo's Ghost
10-23-2007, 13:34
No opinion, old fruit, but I'll have some of that cognac.
Anyway, by no stretch of the imagination does this representative of the fine Republic of Ireland claim us to be a great power, nor do we have the extensive experience of partitioning smaller countries - though some of being the partitionee.
However, if there is beer involved (and cognac for the ambassadorial classes) we'll do the peacekeeping thing again. Oh and we've got a few spare missionaries if you want to convert them back to the One True Faith.
Plan B. That way we control the gate to europe and become a major economic power. Brussels is would be just fine as a capital. In a few years flanders will be richer then the netherlands, can't say no to that. But they will ~;)
ICantSpellDawg
10-23-2007, 14:14
I picked B because giving land to Luxembourg is not a realistic option. I have never understood why Wallonia is not part of France. Can anyone explain this?
Since we need more Western European votes in the Eurovision song contest, I'm in favor of splitting Belgium up in 3 new nations.
CBR
Plan B of course, long live the greater Netherlands! :2thumbsup:
No government in Belgium?
Gah, we have 5 (FIVE!) governments in Belgium :
a) the Flemish government (well, actually, since this government exercises the powers of both the Flemish Region and the Flemish Community, you can consider this two governments..., but you really don't want to start about the details of Belgian State Law...);
b) the Walloon Community government;
c) the Walloon Regional Government;
c) the Government of the Brussels Capital Region;
d) the federal government, currently a government of "running affairs".
~:cheers:
Did I already mention the number of Belgian parliaments?
Let's see, we have:
a) +b) de Vlaamse Raad (which works in fact as the parliament of the Flemish Community and as the Parliament of the Flemish Region, so "de Vlaamse Raad" = 2 parliaments);
c) le Parlement de la Communauté française (French speaking Community);
d) le Parlement Wallon (Walloon Region)
e) Parlement der Deutschsprachigen Gemeinschafft (German speaking Community);
f) Brussels Parlement/Parlement Bruxellois;
g) de Vlaamse Gemeenschapscommissie (to exercise the powers of the Flemish speaking community in the Brussels Capital Region);
h) La Commission communautaire française (to exercise the powers of the french speaking community in the Brussels Capital Region)
i) de Gemeenschappelijke Gemeenschapscommissie/La Commission Communautaire Commune (to exercise the shared powers of both communities in the Brussels Capital Region).
That are 9 bodies with legislative powers. Mind you, this is formal law aka law sensu stricto!
As you can see: no need to worry ~:cheers:
Do they have oil? Any potential nukulur ambitions? If so, give us a call, we'll get them sorted out. ~D
CrossLOPER
10-23-2007, 17:06
Give it to me.
Pannonian
10-23-2007, 17:29
Why not try the traditional plan, which is to paint most of that area light brown every 20 years or so?
The Wizard
10-23-2007, 17:30
Plan B. That way we control the gate to europe and become a major economic power. Brussels is would be just fine as a capital. In a few years flanders will be richer then the netherlands, can't say no to that. But they will ~;)Traitor. Everything beneath the big rivers stinks!
woad&fangs
10-23-2007, 17:33
Plan A looks good because It brings back the Prussian Empire.
I picked B because giving land to Luxembourg is not a realistic option. I have never understood why Wallonia is not part of France. Can anyone explain this?
Nobody really knows what went on in the negotionation rooms, my bet would be that since Wallonia was pretty industralised the english weren't too happy with france owning it.
Do they have oil? Any potential nukulur ambitions? If so, give us a call, we'll get them sorted out. ~D
:no:
If you want to handle our european friends, you'll need silk gloves.
The Prussian Empire idea is not too bad except that we cannot reanimate Bismarck and if we could he might look a bit awkward now. :sweatdrop:
I think Plan B is nice, give the french speaking regions to France and the rest to the Netherlands. I don't see why anyone would want to split it up even more.
:no:
If you want to handle our european friends, you'll need silk gloves.
Well, are they New Europe, or Old Europe? And as a former alcoholic and born-again type, Belgium might be considered the epitome of evil by the Decider-in-Chief. :barrel:
Louis VI the Fat
10-23-2007, 19:01
Do they have oil? Any potential nukulur ambitions? If so, give us a call, we'll get them sorted out. ~DNukes!? It's worse! Belgium (old Europe btw) is knee-deep into biological warfare. Through mysterious, as of yet never replicated processes, they produce Weapons of Mass Consumption - beers. And Belgium is now a dangerously instable state. We must secure at all costs the free flow of this strategic and vital good. And God forbid the consequences if their beer refineries ever fall into the wrong hands....:no:
The whole of the strategic region of Western Europe is in peril. Please make haste and send the marines forthwith! Belgium is on your first left from Normandy, you know the route.
the federal government, currently a government of "running affairs".Belgium has had a provisional government for 175 years now, taking care of "running affairs". You know the routine: the rulers pretend to govern and the people pretend to be Belgians.
Surely, you must agree that this charade can not go on forever?
Also, I don't understand your reply. I mean, I'm trying to run a serious thread here! On matters of grave importance! And you think you should come in here and spout bizarre jokes about there being fourteen governments for a country the size of three departments? :inquisitive:
I have never understood why Wallonia is not part of France.The short answer is that the Southern Low Countries were formed before the 19th century. Before ideas of nationhood, the state and language became connected. If language is the criterium, then not only should Wallonia be French, but Flanders also Dutch.
Dynastic interests, not linguistics or geography, decided most borders of Europe. Not to mention, unified standard languages followed after the formation of states, they didn't precede them. The Low Countries are a mini-Balkan. Three countries, three languages, two religions - none of which coincide. :smash:
Here's an old map of the Low Countries, the 'Leo Belgicus' (and not, as I just learned, the Leo Belgica, thereby ruining my pun in the poll..)
The whole area has some sort of unified culture through close historical ties. Or the other way round. Through the interests of dynasties and the fortunes of war, it is now Northern France. Belgium, Luxembourg and the Netherlands. It is an interesting history, a quick google should provide for some good reads.
Belgium has been ruled by Romans, Franks, Holy Roman Empire, Burgundy, Spain, Austria, France, the Netherlands, and finally, Belgians themselves. This last task has been proven too much for them, and we must now redress this matter.
https://img86.imageshack.us/img86/5293/leobelgicushc4.jpg
Well it's complex, current Belgium was catholic and the netherlands was protestant and there was of course the catholic Spanish. Was a mini-balkan untill what is called the 'great pacification' where each political subculture got equal representation.
First find who to bomb… Who’s the bad guy?
Now, I propose to send immediately a Force of Stabilisation and to develop Democratisation Programme. Brussels should be put under International Administration. Walloon and Flanders will be able to have privileged links with others countries sharing the same culture BUT will not be allowed to unite with them.
The Rights of Linguistic Minorities will be recognised as the Cultural AND religious minorities. And Sexual.
Belgium Army will be dismantled and the Multi-national Forces of Stabilisation will traine the future communities police.
These are my first thought.
ICantSpellDawg
10-23-2007, 19:56
The religious divide between the Catholic Flems and the predominantly Calvinist Nederlanders (of the preceeding century) helped me understand the difference between the Dutch and the Flemish Belgians. I have just never understood why Belgian Walloons did not favor splitting the country and returning to France.
Reverend Joe
10-23-2007, 20:03
*the vile hairy stinking American staggers in, the smell of his rancid Bourbon whisky instantly spoiling everyone's congac...*
I vote "Glass Crater..." we saved your asses in Dubya Dubya 2, now we can waste them just as easily. ~D
...Seriousl, though, the more territory where marijuana is "tolerated," the better in my view, so I vote that we give Europe and North America to the Netherlands and sort everything out afterwards.
The whole of the strategic region of Western Europe is in peril. Please make haste and send the marines forthwith! Belgium is on your first left from Normandy, you know the route.
Are we allowed to take out the evil dictators posing as EU parliament members when we roll through Brussels? We can make it look like collateral damage, if discretion is desired. :yes:
Mikeus Caesar
10-23-2007, 20:34
I quite like the one where Britain gets a piece of the pie...it's about time we rejoined the continent, after all.
Are we allowed to take out the evil dictators posing as EU parliament members when we roll through Brussels? We can make it look like collateral damage, if discretion is desired. :yes:
That would be great but we have absolutily no idea who they are, better safe then sorry I suggest daisy cutters.
Belgium Army
Louis just said that this was a serious thread. And now you come in here and talk about a "Belgium Army" ? :inquisitive:
This is our Minister of Defense:
https://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t2/AndresTheCunning/Flahaut.jpg
And you can find some information about his latest stunt right HERE (http://www.flandersnews.be/cm/flandersnews.be/News/10-71022_flahaut)
Flahaut trip keeps soldiers in Kabul
Mon 22/10/07 - 300 Belgian military personnel may have to stay at their post in Afghanistan a few days longer.
Defence Minister André Flahaut (francophone socialist) is in Africa with the Airbus that was supposed to pick the military personnel up.
The Belgian military personnel were supposed to come home on Thursday following an overseas mission of four months. They are to be relieved by another group of army personnel.
The Airbus that was designated to pick them up however is still at the airport of Lubumbashi.
The airplane had transported a Belgian delegation and Defence Minister Flahaut to Congo the beginning of last week.
Upon landing in Lubumbashi, the airplane sustained a double tyre blow-out.
The airplane has not yet been repaired and it is expected to be a couple of days before the 2 new tyres will be delivered to Congo.
Belgium's second Airbus has been in repairs here in Belgium for several weeks.
The Defence Ministry is trying to borrow an airplane from one of our allies to bring the soldiers home.
Criticism of Minister Flahaut has increased due to this incident.
Need I say more...
If our country is ever to be invaded by foreign powers, then we will have to rely on :
https://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t2/AndresTheCunning/leff_blonde.jpg
and:
https://img258.imageshack.us/img258/6982/duvel1smalldh2.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
and:
https://img218.imageshack.us/img218/5518/bier2gu5.th.jpg (https://img218.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bier2gu5.jpg)
and:
https://img411.imageshack.us/img411/7080/krieklindemanstp1.th.jpg (https://img411.imageshack.us/my.php?image=krieklindemanstp1.jpg)
and:
https://img19.imageshack.us/img19/9776/kriekboonre3.th.png (https://img19.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kriekboonre3.png)
and:
https://img512.imageshack.us/img512/1631/westmalletb9.th.jpg (https://img512.imageshack.us/my.php?image=westmalletb9.jpg)
https://img76.imageshack.us/img76/5282/westmalleschenkenog5.th.jpg (https://img76.imageshack.us/my.php?image=westmalleschenkenog5.jpg)
and many many more...
Prepare for:
Belgian world domination!
Been to Belgium twice, great country, with great beer in my opinion.
Anyway, would someone correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't there two distinctive groups in Belgium: The Walloons and the Flemish? If this is true, why not just cut the country in half and form two independent countries with one speaking French and the other one Dutch?
Geoffrey S
10-23-2007, 23:12
If only things were that simple... it just goes to show how difficult it is to draw imaginary lines and call what's inside them a nation.
Rodion Romanovich
10-24-2007, 12:02
Seeing the great distress of the Belgian people at this difficult time, I have, after some consideration, agreed to take the great burden of ruling Belgium in a harsh and exploiting wise and democratic manner. Especially female rights will be extended, so that they have to are allowed to have sex with their leader if he thinks it appropriate, and all the nicest buildings will be taken over taken under the protection of the government so as to preserve the Belgian cultural heritage to future generations.
King Henry V
10-24-2007, 15:06
Ah Louis, you do tickle my megolomania tastebuds in plan A with those golden words "British protection" and "Prussia". Unfortunately, it gives far too much land to France, which a German-Englishman like myself can never condone. I therefore have to go for plan B, and a more rational division of the tribes of Belgica. Surely it is the non-Belgian man's burden to ensure the stable flow of that essential liquid, Beglian beer, and I for one will be very annoyed if one day I should go to my local supermarket one to buy a bottle of Duvvel or my favourite, Kasteel, only to a find a notice saying "Due to the continuing unstability of the Belgian political situation, our supplies of Belgian beer have briefly run out. We kindly ask for your understanding". Therefore, to ensure the constant flow of Beer, I move that the centres of production of the finest, Trappist, beer, i.e the Abbeys of Chimay, Orbal, Rochfort, Westmalle, Westvleteren, Koningshoeven and Achelse Kluis be placed under the ownership of one country. Since a majority of the abbeys are already in Flanders, soon to be under the control of the Netherlands, the remaining abbeys in Wallonia must be secured by joint British-Dutch commandos before terms are finally settled. If at the bargaining table, such triffling tokens such as the capital, Brussels, must be sacrificied to France to ensure that the Wallonian abbeys remain as exclaves of Flanders, so be it.
:medievalcheers: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/images/smilies/tw/medievalcheers.gif
the first question one needs to ask is....do they have oil?
if the answer is positive I feel someone is about to have a can of police-action opened up on them :laugh4:
rory_20_uk
10-24-2007, 15:18
:titanic: It's great that the heart of the EU can't even have a government for itself! :titanic:
After long and unbias viewing of the options I feel that A is the most fair. Finally, Britain will be a part of Europe!
~:smoking:
I studied your plans and there is a little mistake in them. You didn't count that the flemish are very nationalistic, and the only thing they want after they spilt away from belgium to be indpendent.
And they will never join the dutch, dutch are not liked here in Belgium. LoL
And I voted "let it stay independent" because they will from a goverment. Sooner or later.
HoreTore
10-24-2007, 18:10
Louis just said that this was a serious thread. And now you come in here and talk about a "Belgium Army" ? :inquisitive:
The only thing I've ever heard of them, is that a squad of 20-something men froze to death on a NATO exercise up here...
EDIT: btw, is it too late to claim a belgian colony now? Or can I still claim it too?
I studied your plans and there is a little mistake in them. You didn't count that the flemish are very nationalistic, and the only thing they want after they spilt away from belgium to be indpendent.
And they will never join the dutch, dutch are not liked here in Belgium. LoL
And I voted "let it stay independent" because they will from a goverment. Sooner or later.
It's not about what they want, it's about what we think is best for us them. :beam:
Louis VI the Fat
10-24-2007, 19:23
Seeing the great distress of the Belgian people at this difficult time, I have, after some consideration, agreed to take the great burden of ruling Belgium in a harsh and exploiting wise and democratic manner. Especially female rights will be extended, so that they have to are allowed to have sex with their leader if he thinks it appropriate, and all the nicest buildings will be taken over taken under the protection of the government so as to preserve the Belgian cultural heritage to future generations.Good plan!
We should find a complete and utter outsider, somebody with absolutely no ties to nor interest in Belgium and whose sole concern is how much he can squeeze out of it for his own personal and financial gain. Then we should make him king! :2thumbsup:
But...er...hang on. Been tried before. It didn't do Belgium any good (http://makepeace.ca/respublica/be.html). :shame:
Louis VI the Fat
10-24-2007, 19:26
I studied your plans and there is a little mistake in them. You didn't count that the flemish are very nationalistic, and the only thing they want after they spilt away from belgium to be indpendent.
And they will never join the dutch, dutch are not liked here in Belgium. LoL
And I voted "let it stay independent" because they will from a goverment. Sooner or later.Nah, sorry, can't do. I did say 'Great Powers'. We shall decide what happens with Belgium, thank you. 'With Belgium if possible, without Belgium if necessary'.*
Does a rabbit concern himself with the thoughts of the carrot he's eating?? :smash:
* In a stroke of genius, Louis uses a Flemish nationalist slogan against the Flemish nationalists here...:deal2:
EDIT: btw, is it too late to claim a belgian colony now? Or can I still claim it too?No, it is not too late. But it is, though, non-negotionable. Great Powers colonise nations, small powers colonise icebergs and terrorise the local polar bears. Off north you are, bye.
Louis VI the Fat
10-24-2007, 19:30
Ah Louis, you do tickle my megolomania tastebuds in plan A with those golden words "British protection" and "Prussia". Unfortunately, it gives far too much land to France, which a German-Englishman like myself can never condone. I therefore have to go for plan B, and a more rational division of the tribes of Belgica.
to ensure the constant flow of Beer, I move that the centres of production of the finest beer be placed under the ownership of one country. Since a majority of the abbeys are already in Flanders, soon to be under the control of the Netherlands, the remaining abbeys in Wallonia must be secured by joint British-Dutch commandos before terms are finally settled. Why, my esteemed ambassadeur extraordinaire et plénipotentiaire of Great Britain and Germany, naturally, the interests of your nations must be guaranteed. Indeed, they are foremost on my mind.
But ah, moment, I should have forgotten that it must've been a long and arduous journey for you. I daresay I nearly was an improper host. Before we turn our attention to the interests of Britain and Germany, I feel obliged to be a good host and take care of your interests first. Please, rest yourself for a while in my quarters. I shall have my servants prepare you the finest meal, served by young girls, and young boys too, should that be your desire.
Afterwards we shall have a look into the important matter of my cabinet of Château Haut-Brion, while perhaps devoting a word or two to the trifling matter of a unified Flanders - Netherlands as well. I have heard that the prospect of this unification creates some unease in military circles in Britain and Germany. A strong unified state, controlling the harbours of the low countries, would be akin to a loaded pistol pointed at England, no? I should hope I can be of assistance in preventing this danger to Britain's trade.
Likewise, the unhampered flow of goods through these harbours at the mouth of Germany's great rivers is a matter of great concern to me too. I should hope to be of service here too, in preventing a unified and strong Low Countries from controlling the flow of goods on theses arteries of Germany's industrial heartland.
HoreTore
10-24-2007, 19:42
No, it is not too late. But it is, though, non-negotionable. Great Powers colonise nations, small powers colonise icebergs and terrorise the local polar bears. Off north you are, bye.
But...but... We've dumped all our polar bears and icebergs with the Danes, can't we have a piece of Belgium?
Just a little piece of it... I only need a few hundred locals to tax and oppress...
Louis VI the Fat
10-24-2007, 19:49
I only need a few hundred locals to tax and oppress...That's what God gave you the British Isles for, you wimp. Your forefathers must be turning in their Walhalla graves. ~:mecry:
HoreTore
10-24-2007, 20:02
That's what God gave you the British Isles for, you wimp. Your forefathers must be turning in their Walhalla graves. ~:mecry:
Bah, we invaded that island a 1000 years ago and still own it. But we want more.
Kralizec
10-24-2007, 21:18
A looks pretty good on first sight. Passing (Dutch) Limburg to the Prussians is a good great idea! However I don't like that Zeelandic Flanders would have to be handed over to the UK. I've lived over there half my life, and I'd hate to see it become British.
B would be good, perfect would be if Luxemburg would be returned to the Dutch crown.
C...no.
Sarmatian
10-24-2007, 22:20
If Stella Artois continues to flow, who gives a damn?
The Stella must flow...
Crazed Rabbit
10-24-2007, 23:02
Such an appalling situation in the region? The poor people must be suffering mightily under the incompetence of their leaders, so fat their cause airplane tires to burst!
Even now, tears well up in my eyes when I think of their plight. What can be done? There are some good intentions from Europe, truly, but have their the spirit and gumption to put their plans into action? Can we let the people suffer while the legislature stumbles over itself on minute details?
Indeed, these humans have shown themselves to be incapable of governing themselves, and suffer terribly for it. And so we have decided to take matters into our own hands and relieve the poor Belgians. For we are a race that is kind and benevolent, and will govern them most fairly.
There need be no expedition or campaign, for we rabbits are already present in the very countryside! For a great time we have watched with sadness the dismal state of affairs of the humans here, and now is the time to give them aid.
For truly, they need help, as they cannot help themselves.
To our new international neighbors we extend a warm welcome and a hearty greeting. And a reminder that we'll let you have some beer if you give us some tanks and fighter jets.
Crazed Rabbit
Evil_Maniac From Mars
10-24-2007, 23:57
Plan A: More space to invade France, if we ever feel the need. :book:
Crazed Rabbit
10-25-2007, 07:07
More turmoil in Flanders:
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/30139
Peasant Wedding Gets Out Of Hand
Flemish Authorities Condemn Raucous Display
OOTGROOT, FLANDERS—A peasant wedding in the Flemish town of Ootgroot degenerated into a drunken melee Friday, leaving several dead and the town's butter churn overturned.
As if we needed more incentive to right the situation!
CR
Great Powers colonise nations, small powers colonise icebergs and terrorise the local polar bears. Off north you are, bye.
Oh god somebody mob me up and throw me in a bucket :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
Justiciar
10-25-2007, 17:08
Bah, we invaded that island a 1000 years ago and still own it. But we want more.
I'm all for a restoration of the Kingdom of York. Come by any time. We've made cakes!
Bad news: Populace is gathering momentum and is signing petition for United Belgium. Saw that this morning on TV5, Télé Matin. I have no link but I am sure that my estimé collègue Louis VI The Fat will identify and perhaps imvalid the news.
However we should care too much about what populace think. We new what is good for them.
Will the troops known they will have to proctect as hight priority beers factories in order to preserve our Belgium whatever industrial future? Silly me, of course...
doc_bean
10-28-2007, 09:56
Why do you hate freedom anarchy ?
Conradus
10-28-2007, 13:15
I've voted for the continuing existence of our fine beer-loving state, since eventually we have to form a goverment. But if the Great Powers are so eager to divide our already small country they're more than welcome
IF they are prepared to take part of our national debt on them. I'm sure there won't be any candidates left...
KukriKhan
10-28-2007, 13:41
The former colonies should step up. DR Congo, Rawanda and Burundi should unite, and administer the former "Belgium", in gratitude for their development at the hands of the kind Belgians.
Then we have both rubber AND beer wrapped up.
[/irony off]
I've voted for the continuing existence of our fine beer-loving state, since eventually we have to form a goverment. But if the Great Powers are so eager to divide our already small country they're more than welcome
IF they are prepared to take part of our national debt on them. I'm sure there won't be any candidates left...
I'd settle for that
Plan A would give the skull of doom a thicker neck it seems.
doc_bean
10-30-2007, 18:45
IF they are prepared to take part of our national debt on them. I'm sure there won't be any candidates left...
The debt we virtually paid off with our insanely high taxes over the last ten years ?
No way. I'd rather be dead than Dutch ! :knight:
The debt we virtually paid off with our insanely high taxes over the last ten years ?
No way. I'd rather be dead than Dutch ! :knight:
You would be 'Diets', greater netherlands ---> Dietsland
Conradus
11-01-2007, 22:48
The debt we virtually paid off with our insanely high taxes over the last ten years ?
No way. I'd rather be dead than Dutch ! :knight:
Virtually paid off? We 're still 275,76 billion euro's in debt, about 84% of our bnp. I think that's enough to frigthen anyone :p
doc_bean
11-01-2007, 23:06
Virtually paid off? We 're still 275,76 billion euro's in debt, about 84% of our bnp. I think that's enough to frigthen anyone :p
10 years ago that was 130% or something like that, it's steadily decreasing.
The US still has a higher national debt (per capita) at least :2thumbsup:
Mouzafphaerre
11-01-2007, 23:14
If only things were that simple... it just goes to show how difficult it is to draw imaginary lines and call what's inside them a nation.
.
It has worked perfectly in the Middle-earth Middle East, the Balkans and Africa, hasn't it? :toff: I see no reason why not! :barrel:
.
Did I really read that? A french man saying he lives in a great power? lol
Boyar Son
11-04-2007, 01:46
why not give the Americans?(:unitedstates: :unitedstates: :unitedstates: )
Europe can sit back and relax and enjoy their driving on the left lane of the road and watch all their soccer and whatnot... (and will somebody go medieval on Andorra already!?!?)
or let them be...living is all they need to worry about.
Europe can sit back and relax and enjoy their driving on the left lane of the road
:wall:
You need more edumacation.
Conradus
11-04-2007, 09:29
Perhaps we should give it to the USA then, we Belgians might be able to 're-educate' them.:book2:
And wouldn't it be refreshing to have some left parties in the USA?
doc_bean
11-04-2007, 20:27
If they adopt our social security system I'm in :laugh4:
why not give the Americans?(:unitedstates: :unitedstates: :unitedstates: )
Europe can sit back and relax and enjoy their driving on the left lane of the road
https://img117.imageshack.us/img117/2138/drivemapag0.gif (https://imageshack.us)
Aren't you missing Nascar?
Perhaps we should give it to the USA then, we Belgians might be able to 're-educate' them.:book2:
Please do. You seem to have so much success running your own country.
Boyar Son
11-04-2007, 21:11
No edit button to correct the mistake, what do you want me to do?!?!
(waite a minute...do I see some red (left lane) there in europe!!, looks like I escape defeat again~D)
That's Great Britain...
Also nice map Ice, but IIRC they drive on the right side in South Africa. I was there I should know but I'm not 100% sure anymore.
edit: ok, it's left in SA.
No edit button to correct the mistake, what do you want me to do?!?!
(waite a minute...do I see some red (left lane) there in europe!!, looks like I escape defeat again~D)
Really?
Can you cite when/where they decided The United Kingdom= Europe?
Boyar Son
11-04-2007, 23:56
http://www.europeetravel.com/images/maps/europe-political-small.gif
well i typed europe into google maps and I see GB in europe :p
http://www.europeetravel.com/images/maps/europe-political-small.gif
well i typed europe into google maps and I see GB in europe :p
:tumbleweed:
Hmmm...
This thread is starting to sound like Belgian government formation negotiations...
Mouzafphaerre
11-05-2007, 03:45
.
"Driving on the right side doesn't mean driving on the right side."
A British Lady, ca. 2002
.
Conradus
11-05-2007, 20:18
Please do. You seem to have so much success running your own country.
We don't, that's our secret:2thumbsup: :grin3:
But seriously, we haven't started a war in our history nor has there been a terrorist assault on our nation. I think we're doing just fine:yes:
Boyar Son
11-05-2007, 23:04
We don't, that's our secret:2thumbsup: :grin3:
But seriously, we haven't started a war in our history nor has there been a terrorist assault on our nation. I think we're doing just fine:yes:
I simply refuse to state IMO why.
the way these europeans of the org are acting, it seem like they really want belgium to cease...really? or is this a joke on a small country?
(not bashing anyone, this place is my only source for euro news, like those huge # of muslim terrorists in europe i always hear about here yikes:dizzy2: :dizzy2: )
Seamus Fermanagh
11-05-2007, 23:14
Belgium should immediately commence a war of self-liberation, European enemy(ies) TBD.
Alliances should be sought with Alba and the Basques.
At the appropriate moment, the Bel-Alb-Basque alliance should surrender to the United States and ask for occupation [at a nominal fee :deal: ] and reparations for war damages.
If slipped in during an election cycle (media wouldn't waste time checking whether or not we were at war with the alliance :yes: and at least one major party -- if not both -- would quickly pledge funding to keep us in good graces with Europe :cheesy: ), this should be hugely lucrative (Whisky imported at 1k Euros (none of those trash dollars PUH-LEEEAZE; the Scheldt dredged and Antwerp's port facilities rebuilt; Catalonia purchased from Spain to form a Basque homeland; millions siphoned off to Cayman accounts for all key players and a few hundred thousand apiece to the various Annan's -- just for old-times sake). :devilish:
(not bashing anyone, this place is my only source for euro news, like those huge # of muslim terrorists in europe i always hear about here yikes:dizzy2: :dizzy2: )
You can always look under the "international" and more specially the "European" section of most online newspapers.
Louis VI the Fat
11-05-2007, 23:23
the way these europeans of the org are acting, it seem like they really want belgium to cease...really? or is this a joke on a small country?We all love Belgium. That's why we fight so much over it all the time, this battlefield of Europe.
No really, it is all a joke. Both Belgium and it's relations with neighbouring countries are complex, and the fun in this thread rests on an understanding of that, but I can't even begin to explain it. But rest assured that this thread is all in good jest and we wish Belgium all the best.
More in general, Belgium is facing some tough negotiations with the formation of it's new government. But there will be one. (My money's on orange-blue). Belgium is not on the brink of collapse. Belgium is doing very well. There are not a dozen countries in this world with a better quality of life. A rich country, with a long history, fantastic cities, food and culture. Shamefully overlooked by tourists, especially by the non-European ones. Don't skip it should you ever vist the Paris / London / Amsterdam triangle!
Peasant Phill
11-06-2007, 00:36
Ohh Louis, you made me blush. Although I can't quite see that long history. Belgium is just 175 years old.
Hmm let me check those plans of yours:
Plan A: I object to this plan on moral grounds. Call it everything except Antwerp. Yes, Belgium is worse than the Balkans.
Plan B: I believe the right expression is: "I would rather die than to be a Dutchman". We really love our northern neigbours, without them we would have to insult the French instead and that's rather unoriginal.
Plan C: Independent Flanders? Wallony is the raison d'être of a third of our Flemish parties. What would those politicians do then? Will somebody please think of the politicians.
You know what. Let's just keep Belgium together for a little while longer. It's allready know as Absurdistan to it's inhabitants. Be assured, we can handle it just fine. Besides Prince Filiep would cry if you would take a way his plaything.
“Yes, Belgium is worse than the Balkans”: Believe me on that, Belgium is a piece of simplicity compared with Balkans, even if you only consider Balkans as Former Yugoslavia…
Seamus, great plan… Just be careful of your vocabulary:
“commence a war of self-liberation”: Reclaiming freedom and self-determination
“should surrender”: “ask for a humanitarian intervention to ease the suffering of the populations” or “ ask for a humanitarian corridor”.
“ask for occupation”: Enforcement of Interposition Forces, or Reaction and Protection Forces…
“reparations for war damages” Allocation of contractS to rebuilt the countries/infrastructures and democratisation programmes, Post War Trauma rehabilitation Programmes, training of security Forces etc.
Better?
Peasant Phill
11-06-2007, 09:17
[QUOTE=Brenus]“Yes, Belgium is worse than the Balkans”: Believe me on that, Belgium is a piece of simplicity compared with Balkans, even if you only consider Balkans as Former Yugoslavia…QUOTE]
It was only a joke. I know the tensions Belgium (only cultural) don't compare the slightest bit to the long history tension, contradictions and outright violence in the Balkans.
Some people just make it seem like it.
It's a bit much indeed, it may be in shambles but it's hardly bombed.
I quite like the one where Britain gets a piece of the pie...it's about time we rejoined the continent, after all.
quite. its just about the only way i wish to feel 'closer' to my continental chums.
Boyar Son
11-06-2007, 22:30
I quite like the one where Britain gets a piece of the pie...it's about time we rejoined the continent, after all.
Um...dont you guys have Gibraltar??:oops:
doc_bean
11-07-2007, 17:44
Well, looks like we opened the floodgates today :laugh4:
Boyar Son
11-09-2007, 01:29
Well, looks like we opened the floodgates today :laugh4:
Um...would that be a bad thing kind sir?:oops:
AntiochusIII
11-09-2007, 03:51
Um...would that be a bad thing kind sir?:oops:For the Low Countries...
:skull:
Louis VI the Fat
12-04-2007, 12:49
This weekend the Belgian coalition talks collapsed (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7122799.stm).
With the present complete implosion of all central government it is clear that not even foreign intervention can save Belgium anymore. The country is fracturised beyond repair. It has regressed into a Dark Ages, similar to what happened after the fall of the Roman Empire.
Now is the time for adventurous young men to forge themselves a fiefdom of their own. I think I'll aim for Namur. 'Marquis de Namur' always had a nice ring to it... :knight:
Peasant Phill
12-04-2007, 13:14
I'm very pleased with the contents of the article. It paraphrased the current situation quite well without taking a stand on the issue.
Louis, you can have Namur if you help me take Ghent and/or Bruges.
On a brighter note we are still nowhere near the European record of longest time without a government. That honour seems to go to the Netherlands somewhere in the 70ies with about 200 days.
Vladimir
12-05-2007, 16:51
On a brighter note we are still nowhere near the European record of longest time without a government. That honour seems to go to the Netherlands somewhere in the 70ies with about 200 days.
Maybe you should look at Italy, they may have the dutch beat on cumulative time. I hear the government there is optional.
Great thread. I love the irony.
Kralizec
12-05-2007, 17:26
Maybe you should look at Italy, they may have the dutch beat on cumulative time. I hear the government there is optional.
Great thread. I love the irony.
Italian politics are always fun to follow. It should be said though that they've become creative in dealing with political instability, incidents that would have led to new elections in other parliamentary countries are delt with by shuffling ministers around.
How are things going with the Brussels-Halle-Vilvoorde problem?
Peasant Phill
12-07-2007, 09:54
How are things going with the Brussels-Halle-Vilvoorde problem?
On the whole since say the elections, ... absolutly nothing. Both Flemish and Walloon politicians are demanding things that the other part can't (better read won't) agree to. Some Mayors (elected here in Belgium) aren't been appointed as they send out the election slips in French which is illegal* (the majority of the inhabitants of those villages speak French as a first language). As a result they speak French during the city counsels to (also rendering everything they decide void.
The fun part is that our constituional court has ruled that the present organisation of BHV is illegal. So any new elections will be void unless the mess gets sorted out. That's what you get when such a problem is left alone for a decade or more.
* Governmental documents must use the language of it's location (Dutch in Flanders, French in Wallony and both in Brussels).
As long as we elect politicians with an IQ below their shoe size, there won't be an acceptable, let alone satisfying, solution...
Vladimir
12-07-2007, 16:55
As long as we elect politicians with an IQ below their shoe size, there won't be an acceptable, let alone satisfying, solution...
That's no excuse, it's just saying that Belgians have a below average IQ.
Besides, we all know that your people are EVIL (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://arbyte.us/blog_archive/2005/11/drevil_million_dollars.jpg&imgrefurl=http://thedailykimchi.blogspot.com/2006_08_01_archive.html&h=318&w=300&sz=9&hl=en&start=1&tbnid=61FO4xxUjAo07M:&tbnh=118&tbnw=111&prev=/images%3Fq%3Ddr%2Bevil%26gbv%3D2%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG) so adding genius to that is a recipe for disaster.
I don't get it. Do Walloons and the Flemish hate each other that much? Belgium is its own neat little country, why break it up for no good reason and throw away its history, its identity and leave it to the nearby vultures to gobbble up? It makes no sense.
Louis VI the Fat
12-07-2007, 17:31
Belgium is its own neat little country, why break it up for no good reason and throw away its history, its identity and leave it to the nearby vultures to gobbble up? It makes no sense.Vultures!? Well that's a very offensive way of putting it! I demand an apology forthwith!
All I want is for France to establish a mutually beneficial overlordship over Belgium to aid these hapless people in their time of plight. However, since I am a reasonable moderate and a firm believer in being good neighbours, I am going out of my way to look after the interests of other Great Powers too. I want to work out a solution for the Belgian Question together with Germany, the UK and the United Provinces. How does that make no sense? How's that unfair?
Tsk. :no:
Vladimir
12-07-2007, 18:11
I need to start hanging out with Louis more. He's going places! However, I hope that Louis III stays away from Mexico.
I don't get it. Do Walloons and the Flemish hate each other that much? Belgium is its own neat little country, why break it up for no good reason and throw away its history, its identity and leave it to the nearby vultures to gobbble up? It makes no sense.
Belgium doesn't really make sense, it's not a country, it's a set of borders, 3 nationalities on a piece of earth. There is a flemish part, a french part and a (small) german part and they are all hanging on as hard as they can. My brother was in the french part of belgium, and something was announced in french, and everyone walked away, turned out later that it was a bomb-warning. Three official languages and they only announce a bomb-warning in french. Go figure.
Belgium doesn't really make sense, it's not a country, it's a set of borders, 3 nationalities on a piece of earth. There is a flemish part, a french part and a (small) german part and they are all hanging on as hard as they can. My brother was in the french part of belgium, and something was announced in french, and everyone walked away, turned out later that it was a bomb-warning. Three official languages and they only announce a bomb-warning in french. Go figure.
Is that really a good reason to break up the country? The Swiss are a good example of a multi-ethnic country, it can be done.
Is that really a good reason to break up the country? The Swiss are a good example of a multi-ethnic country, it can be done.
I think it should stay the way it is because it's such a mess and whatever happens will make it even more uncontrolable, rights laws taxes etc, but I would love a semi-independant Flanders in our comfortable embrace nevertheless.
I think it should stay the way it is because it's such a mess and whatever happens will make it even more uncontrolable, rights laws taxes etc, but I would love a semi-independant Flanders in our comfortable embrace nevertheless.
What I do not see is how will either the Flemish or the Walloons benefit from a break-up. What does it accomplish? Aren't most of them bilingual anyway? Who cares what language the announcer uses as long as you can understand what he's saying. Besides, the issue of Brussels is a recipe for a nice little ethnic civil war in the very heart of the EU. Somehow I doubt that a split is a good idea.
What I do not see is how will either the Flemish or the Walloons benefit from a break-up. What does it accomplish? Aren't most of them bilingual anyway? Who cares what language the announcer uses as long as you can understand what he's saying. Besides, the issue of Brussels is a recipe for a nice little ethnic civil war in the very heart of the EU. Somehow I doubt that a split is a good idea.
Complicated, when it was founded the north(flemish) bennefited from the south where the industry was, but now the southern(french) part is barren, there is hardly any economy going on, Walloons naturally want it the way it is. A split would be the smartest thing the flemish ever did besides joining us, there is no such thing as 'Belgium'
Reverend Joe
12-07-2007, 19:20
Perhaps, rather than qiuibbling over a few silly nationalist sentiments, the Belgians should consider the benefits of Orwellian Communism:
-no internal nationalist or religious problems
-a single bland language for all
-the overly complex process of creating delicious beer is replaced by the relatively simple process of creating victory gin
-problems no longer exist as long as Bigger Brother decides they do not
It's the solution to all your problems! :idea2:
Complicated, when it was founded the north(flemish) bennefited from the south where the industry was, but now the southern(french) part is barren, there is hardly any economy going on, Walloons naturally want it the way it is. A split would be the smartest thing the flemish ever did besides joining us, there is no such thing as 'Belgium'
Are you saying that the entire Walloon population sits at home all day sipping on French wine while the poor Flemish slave away in the salt mines to support the French-speaking parasites?
Are you saying that the entire Walloon population sits at home all day sipping on French wine while the poor Flemish slave away in the salt mines to support the French-speaking parasites?
No, that was your poetic interpetation.
Conradus
12-07-2007, 21:24
there is no such thing as 'Belgium'
Belgium was already mentioned before the Netherlands existed :2thumbsup:
Perhaps, rather than qiuibbling over a few silly nationalist sentiments, the Belgians should consider the benefits of Orwellian Communism:
Orwellian Communism might be an answer, though we'll need an ally and a country to wage war on, any volunteers?
Myrddraal
12-08-2007, 00:24
Are you saying that the entire Walloon population sits at home all day sipping on French wine while the poor Flemish slave away in the salt mines to support the French-speaking parasites?
Before:
South (French speaking) lots of industry based on mining.
North (Flemish speaking) farming.
Now:
South: Mines closed, lots of unemployment, subsidies
North: Going places, paying the subsidies.
If I get this right, historically the French speakers were the aristocratic classes. Now they're the poor sods. Perhaps this goes some way to explaining the Flemish desire to split.
Ah the irony:
https://img80.imageshack.us/img80/1485/belgiumcofaul6.png
Eendracht maakt macht
L'union fait la force
Einigkeit macht stark
EDIT: PS, I'm half Belgian with dual nationality. My Belgian Grandparents live in fear of a split, they're a patriotic pair!
Kralizec
12-08-2007, 01:31
On the whole since say the elections, ... absolutly nothing. Both Flemish and Walloon politicians are demanding things that the other part can't (better read won't) agree to. Some Mayors (elected here in Belgium) aren't been appointed as they send out the election slips in French which is illegal* (the majority of the inhabitants of those villages speak French as a first language). As a result they speak French during the city counsels to (also rendering everything they decide void.
The fun part is that our constituional court has ruled that the present organisation of BHV is illegal. So any new elections will be void unless the mess gets sorted out. That's what you get when such a problem is left alone for a decade or more.
* Governmental documents must use the language of it's location (Dutch in Flanders, French in Wallony and both in Brussels).
I thought the Flemish parties voted for it to be split and got it through, thus blowing up the negotiations? (the first time, back in november)
Mouzafphaerre
12-08-2007, 10:58
.
If I get this right, historically the French speakers were the aristocratic classes. Now they're the poor sods. Perhaps this goes some way to explaining the Flemish desire to split.
Plus, at the time of foundation the French were clearly a majority. In the course of centuries that became void. AFAIK the Flemish are the more crowded of the two now and the German somewhat accidentally ended up there anyway. ~;p
.
Peasant Phill
12-08-2007, 11:03
I thought the Flemish parties voted for it (BHV, sic.) to be split and got it through, thus blowing up the negotiations? (the first time, back in november)
You're correct, but it isn't as simple as that. The Belgian constitution offers the French speaking minority protection against the Dutch speaking majority for certain matters. As long as there isn't a majority in favour of the split in BHV in both Flanders and Wallony than there'll be no split.
All the political parties were aware of that. The voting was just a way of showing that the Flemish parties formed one front and ment business.
Peasant Phill
12-08-2007, 11:08
.
Plus, at the time of foundation the French were clearly a majority. In the course of centuries that became void. AFAIK the Flemish are the more crowded of the two now and the German somewhat accidentally ended up there anyway. ~;p
.
I don't know if the French speakers were in the majority in that time. They were however in power. The rich, the clergy, the academics and the aristocracy all spoke French. if you wanted to get somewhere in that time, you had to learn French.
@ Rvg:
First about the hate between both parts of the country. We don't hate eachother that much. It's just the discussions that are ongoing now that make it seem like we're at eachothers throath. And it has started to escalate since then.
Secondly about throwing away our history and identity when splitting Belgium. I have to say that we don't have a lot of history, only 175 years. Furthermore, at least in Flanders, there is no such thing as a Belgian identity. Flemish people see themselves first as Flemmish, then as people from there respective region, then European and only then Belgian. This is o whole different ballgame than say the Polish identity. Belgium is/was a construction of people who saw a benifit in its foundation and not liberation of one people. Belgium has been a compromise since its beginning.
Thirdly about the break-up. I don't see Belgium falling appart in the comming 5 to 10 years. The first steps towards a break-up have been set already when it came apparant that securing personal gains made necessary steps for the country impossibe.
Oh and about the whole country being bilingual, that's one of the agrevations here. Most Flems are bilingual, most Walloons aren't. Recently Flems have stopped being overly polite when talking to a Walloon (read they don't automatically change to French). This added oil to the fire.
The German part of Belgium was a retribution by Germany for starting WWI. That part is politically and economically of little consequence.
Is that really a good reason to break up the country? The Swiss are a good example of a multi-ethnic country, it can be done.
yes, but the difference is that their has to be a national will to work to preserve the nation. that seems distinctly absent in belgium.
Peasant Phill
12-08-2007, 15:50
yes, but the difference is that their has to be a national will to work to preserve the nation. that seems distinctly absent in belgium.
I can't say I agree. I don't believe you could find a majority in Belgium that wants Belgium to split. I do believe, however, that you would find a majority that wants the current system of government in Belgium changed.
There is a national will to perserve the nation otherwise Belgium would've long seized to exist. There have been bigger confrontations before than the one today*.
The current problem is simply put a marriage where one partner needs a bit more space and the other refusing this bluntly. This is not threatening for the marriage but if both sides stay ther course, a divorce will be unavoidable. Flems have the feeling that they've always had to give more than they received (talking about reorganisations) because the Walloons just refuse things outright unles they get a great deal back. As a response now, Flemish politicians refuse anything less then what they feel they deserve.
From the elections in june up until now, both sides have been rolling there muscles as they promised to their supporters. The problem is none can budge very much without losing face but they'll have eventually. What'll be decided then will be very important for the future of Belgium.
I would like to discuss this, amongs other things, with a Walloon if there is one on this forum.
* read about the Koningskwestie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopold_III_of_Belgium#WWII_and_controversy)
Louis VI the Fat
12-10-2007, 21:06
We need to act quickly! The build-up to the genocidal phase of Belgium's power struggle has begun.
The Flemish prime minister compared the Walloon public broadcasting channel to acting as a Radio Mille Collines, the Rwandese channel that was so crucial in instigating the genocide in Rwanda. ~:eek:
Yesterday, Yves Leterme, who had received from the Belgian king the responsibility of negotiating a new government, declared to the press that the RTBF, the French speaking national Belgian TV channel, was like "Radio Mille Collines", the genocidal civil war time Rwanda radio. The absurdity of the charge alleviates probably some of its sting. RTBF is a highly respected quality public channel, relatively independent despite its language bias. The same case can hardly be made about Flemish channels who gather certainly more funds but for a result which is not really shining.
Obviously, it is Yves Leterme himself which will be the most damaged by this moronic and insulting comment. C&V leader Yves Leterme lost all credibility, adding to an already long list of past outrageous comments. The Flemish politician was once seen as the next Prime Minister to replace Guy Verhofstadt after the present record power vacuum. Unfortunately, it is now unlikely that the French speaking community parties can ever trust him anymore. This is probably the reason why the king asked Guy Verhofstadt to renegotiate a government agreement.Sorry, can't find reputable English sources for the latest outrage, just this amateurish (http://marelles.blogspot.com/2007/12/kigali-brussels.html)blog.
I call for an immediate disarmament of, and arms embargo against, Flanders.
Kralizec
12-10-2007, 21:39
RTBF broadcasted a fake live report saying that the Flemish had unilaterally declared independence. I'd say that this was great satire, if it weren't for the fact that they later explained that (paraphrasing): "we want to show the people what the Flemish rethoric is ultimately about"
The comparison that Leterme made is undefendable, though.
Mouzafphaerre
12-11-2007, 03:13
.
Yves Leterme
How's that name Flemish? :inquisitive:
.
Peasant Phill
12-11-2007, 09:24
.
How's that name Flemish? :inquisitive:
.
His father was/is a Walloon. Not that it changes his opinion.
Also there are many Flemish people with a French name and Walloon people with a Flemish name.
And about Letermes commentary: "Shame on youmister Bush mister Leterme. Like he hasn't been demonised enough in the Walloon media. His commentary may be understandable in it's context (unlikely but I won't judge unless I know the whole story behind it) but as a potential prime minister he just committed political suicide.
Now on the topic of biased media. We, Belgians, like to think that our media is objective unlike say the Russian media or Fox*. The reality, however, proves this wrong. The media in both parts of the country clearly shows different views on our current situation. I fear that a lot of journalists (on both sides) are being dragged off by their own personal opinions because of the ongoing escalation and radicalisation of both sides of the country.
On another note, that fake live report really offended the Flemish people. It was a charicature (a mock image) of what lives in Flanders. If they spend two years on research for it, like they said, I don't value their skills as journalists very highly. Also note that the RTBF aired this 'documentary' before the elections which somewhat proves that they were less then objective before the whole radicalisation of opinions began.
* I'm not comparing Russian media with Fox, only that they both share the perception of being one-sided.
I've been watching the RTBF the last few months, since the start of our political crisis, and I must say, I didn't always like what I saw. The way Bart De Wever, Yves Leterme and sometimes even the Flemish as a whole are depicted is sometimes disgusting.
I remember one broadcast in particular.
Patrick Janssens, the mayor of Antwerp, had offered apologies to the Jewish Community in name of the City of Antwerp, because of the collaboration with the nazi regime of the Antwerp police force during WWII.
Bart De Wever critised Janssens. The apologies made 60 years after the fact were "gratuit" (cheap) and in fact too late he said. De Wever also added that the generalisation made by Janssens wasn't historically correct because only a part of the Antwerp police force collaborated. Many Antwerp police officers at that time did not cooperate with the Germans. Some of them even risked their own lives trying to save their Jewish neighbours. De Wever concluded that the apologies made by Janssens were made out of political motives, for his own, personal benefit.
The Jewish community was offended because they felt De Wever had said that the apologies weren't needed. De Wever explained that he just wanted to point out that Janssens was abusing the apologies for his own political gain. De Wever apologised himself on his turn to the Jewish community because of the misunderstanding.
The RTBF brought this event in a disgusting way, diabolising De Wever, not stressing that De Wever was in fact merely critising Patrick Janssens and his motives.
The RTBF also referred to a poll held in "De Standaard" (a quality flemish newspaper) after the events. The question in that poll was if the remarks made by Bart De Wever were appropriate. A majority voted yes on that poll.
The RTBF commentator couldn't help himself but to add "It seems like the North of the country still hasn't dealt yet with the demons of the past", which is a reference to the (historically wrong) cliché that all Flemings collaborated with the nazi regime in WWII...
I didn't (and I still don't) see the need for that remark/insinuation in that context. It was nothing less then an (unjust) insult directed at the flemish people.
Being the grandson of one grandfather who has been deported into forced labor by the Germans during WWII and another grandfather who was in the resistance during that time, of a grandmother who had to flee to France, with her 2 year old child and another grandmother who almost got killed by the Germans while stealing coals (it was stealing coals or freezing to death in those days) I was highly offended by that insinuating remark, made on a national television channel. They should know better then that.
Besides... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%A9on_Degrelle)
The Radio Mille Collines comparison is clearly exaggerated, but I can't feel much sympathy for those RTBF "journalists"...
If there is a misconception in Wallony about the majority of the Flemings being racist, selfish, xenofobic and separatist, then the RTBF and some belgian francophone newpapers carry a great deal of the blame for that imo.
Vladimir
12-18-2007, 13:36
New controversy which will no doubt shake Europe to it's very core.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20071217/od_afp/belgiumpoliticspeopleoffbeat
BRUSSELS (AFP) - Belgium's political tensions entered the glamour stakes after it was revealed that the new Miss Belgium does not speak Dutch.
:laugh4: Good thing the .org put me ahead of the power curve on this one.
Peasant Phill
12-18-2007, 14:54
This is again a result of the ongoing escalation and radicalisation of the tensions between nort and South belgium. There have been plenty non Dutch speaking misses only now some Flemish people reacted on it (quite tasteless I might add by booing) while the Walloons reacted on the reaction by voting en bloc for the girl.
BTW, Belgium is on the verge of getting an interim government which should last until eastern.
BTW, Belgium is on the verge of getting an interim government which should last until eastern.
Nope... (http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/1274/Formatie/article/detail/107822/2007/12/18/CdH-en-PS-doen-niet-mee.dhtml)
CDh and PS don't want to play government.
It seems like none of our elected politicians want to govern Belgium. I'm starting to wonder why they participated on the elections in the first place ~:confused:
Maybe Louis is right. I welcome my new French-English-German-American overlords.
You'll regret it soon enough... :devil:
Boyar Son
12-18-2007, 18:34
I heard miss Belgium cant speak dutch.
Vladimir
12-18-2007, 20:54
I heard miss Belgium cant speak dutch.
You sir are a scholar and a gentleman. :bow: Quite the insight.
Boyar Son
12-18-2007, 22:16
You sir are a scholar and a gentleman. :bow: Quite the insight.
I accept that without acknoweledging ANY sarcasm in it.
Louis VI the Fat
12-21-2007, 00:41
Sorry, video (http://desourcesure.com/dss/2007/12/belgique_les_pompiers_respecte.php) in French for my Belgian friends. :laugh4:
Do they have oil? Any potential nukulur ambitions?
:laugh4: LOL This made my day. ~;)
Belgium is on your first left from Normandy, you know the route.
:laugh4: This is good too. ~;)
On a bit more serious note let me grab the opportunity to voice my displeasure that the great Austro-Hungarian Empire were left out of such important negotiations. I kindly ask a plan D to be drawn up immediately, which represents the interest of our great Empire. :clown:
Peasant Phill
12-21-2007, 12:07
Hoozay, Belgium finaly has a government, Hoozay. At least until eastern at which time the problems can start all over again.
The fire fighters can collect all the speed tickets they want in just a little while.
Louis VI the Fat
12-22-2007, 02:22
Hoozay, Belgium finaly has a government, Hoozay. At least until eastern at which time the problems can start all over again.Good news indeed. The Belgian relief is palpable. Even I was getting a bit embarrassed about this thread. I might not have started it if I had foreseen the depths this crisis would reach. Or, maybe I would have, and poured much more energy into it - nothing beats a foreign threat for a sense of national unity.
Well, a respite until a no doubt very turbulent 2008 and 2009 it is then.
On the bright side, always keep an international perspective on things. The starting point for Belgium is as bad as the Balkans, certainly much more difficult than Eire or Spain. Yet Belgium is a peaceful, very rich nation. Always has been. Where's the civil war, the bombs, the destitution in Belgium's history?
There is still an aspect about Belgium's unique state structure that serves as a great model for entire Europe. An immensely complex, even absurd, state system that absorbs and neuters all the energy of tribalistic strife in surrealism. Brilliant.
Vive la Belgique! Leve België! L'union fait la force! :2thumbsup:
Peasant Phill
12-22-2007, 11:35
Louis, you really brought a tear to my eye. Long live Belgium for at least a few months.
And yes, I am very proud at our state structure and our decision making. It is a infinite source for ridicule but as a Master in public administration I can only marvel at the sheer amount of ingenuity and good will that has kept Belgium together.
I'm also pleased by your acknowledgement of the groundbreaking work that Belgian politicians and civil servants have done on the matter of decentralisation. Countries like Spain, Cyprus and such all keep a close eye on Belgium and hope they can use the solutions that Belgians have tested or are testing.
An example of Belgian political ingenuity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baudouin_I_of_Belgium#Religious_influences) Note that Baudouin didn't ask for this solution (fault in wiki), a member of Martens staff is to be thanked for this. Secondly the article in the constitution was to prevent a king without his full mental capabilities to rule. It was genius and absurd at the same time to use this artice in the way it was used.
Yet Belgium is a peaceful, very rich nation. Always has been. Where's the civil war, the bombs, the destitution in Belgium's history?
That is because it doesn't exist, just a set of borders. Flanders exists, Walloon exists but not belgium, this is never going to end. Still think Flanders should join us, or become independant and take over our province of Limburg.
Mouzafphaerre
12-22-2007, 14:54
.
So, what's the motivation behind this, err, cold relation between the Dutch and the Flemmish now? AFAIK it was religious back in the 19. C; Catholic south vs. Calvinist north. Does religion, by itself or as a cultural identity thing, have an effect on the modern status?
.
Peasant Phill
12-22-2007, 15:49
.
So, what's the motivation behind this, err, cold relation between the Dutch and the Flemmish now? AFAIK it was religious back in the 19. C; Catholic south vs. Calvinist north. Does religion, by itself or as a cultural identity thing, have an effect on the modern status?
.
We don't really have a cold relationship. We see eye to eye on lots of things and are only happy to work together. It's just that at least for Flems it's very important not to be seen as a Dutchmen, a Flem has its own identity.
True, the relegious difference was what divided us back in the days of the UKN. It was one of the reason Flanders joined the monster coalition against the Dutch. That moment formed a part of the Flemish identity as a rival to the Dutch. We may have shared a lot of history together but there has been a shism between us that formed a part of our identity. It's peculiar that it formed the Flemish identity a lot more than it did the Dutch probably because the Flemish revolted.
We still carry our history with us in the form of this identity. Many don't know that Belgium and the Netherlands were once one country but they know that we are rivals. It is more a form of cultural heritage now than it is a form of logic.
.
So, what's the motivation behind this, err, cold relation between the Dutch and the Flemmish now? AFAIK it was religious back in the 19. C; Catholic south vs. Calvinist north. Does religion, by itself or as a cultural identity thing, have an effect on the modern status?
.
Pretty much comming from Flanders only, we like them but that is only because most of us dont know how they feel about us. I am always treated like youknow in Belgium. No clue really.
edit: that must have been the quikest 5 minutes in understanding international relations ever.
Well let's spice it up a bit, a little understanding of our cultural topography just for the sake of it, Brabant and Limburg are also catholic provincesm if you cross the Rhine you are behind enemy lines, they celebrate strange things sch as carneval where the towns get odd names ~;) Limburg especially has the same anti-dutch attitude as the Flemmish, want own national song you get it, and then we have Friesland up north as well, who refuse to speak dutch unless they really have to. Mini balkan sounds about right but there is an acceptation of unity, the Netherlands as a state is a fact. Not really mini balkan, netherlands is more like a pocket USA, we even call ourselves the united provinces at times and we have a actual north and south. Belgium is more of the Balkan type.
Kralizec
12-22-2007, 19:34
and then we have Friesland up north as well, who refuse to speak dutch unless they really have to.
Well, whenever my father's family gathers and I have to sit near it they start speaking in Frysian until they realize that neither I nor my siblings can understand more than a handful of words that they're saying.
Of the younger (>40) Frysians I know, most of them can't speak Frysian as well as they speak Dutch. Some of them can barely speak it, some not at all. Only one that I've met can actually read Frysian garble.
Nevertheless it is an official language in Dutchland. The only fuss I've ever heard about it is when "real" Dutch people go over there and are astonished that people are allowed to use a language that they don't understand.
Besides it still beats having a Francophonic minority ~;)
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