KotR Out of character thread XV [Archive] - Page 3

TinCow

11-14-2007, 04:13

Lothar Steffen (Duke of Bavaria) gave Dietrich von Dassel military support (in the form of a Bavarian army).
Jan gave Hans financial and military support (in the form of his Catholic army, though it also resulted in the creation of a Lutheran army to aid Dietrich).
Elberhard gave Hans financial support.
Peter von Kastilien (Duke of Franconia) gave Hans military support to help subdue rebel Metz (real in-game rebels, not Civil War style rebels). His support has not extended beyond that and likely will not since Franconia is the most heavily pressed House at the moment.

That's the extent of 'outside' involvement with Swabia. Also, while Hummel has not recieved any aid of substance, he has probably been involved in diplomatic contact with multiple people. I can only speak for Lothar, but Lothar is certainly friendly towards him and not hostile. Even if Dietrich wins at Bern and becomes Duke of Swabia, Lothar would support a negotiated settlement that benefits both Dietrich and Hummel. Speaking from my role as GM, Hummel's main problem is that he is totally cut off from any potential allies. The French, Dutch, and Swabian Loyalists surround him. There is no real route to send money or reinforcements to him without a significant risk of them being intercepted. That said, he seems to have done very well on his own. His main challenge at this point is fending off the AI attacks on his mini-Duchy, though that could change if Hans wins.

Zim

11-14-2007, 04:39

Thanks, Tincow. Now I know what I'm getting into.

Can I get "Go team Dietrich" pins for the battle of Bern? ~;p

AussieGiant

11-14-2007, 09:58

I tell you what guy's...explaining things to Zim has certainly given me a new perspective on just how convoluted things have become :laugh4:

I will be fighting my rebel scum this evening around 20:30 GMT +1.

econ21

11-14-2007, 11:08

I tell you what guy's...explaining things to Zim has certainly given me a new perspective on just how convoluted things have become :laugh4:

I think it is quite delicious, isn't it? Remember there was a time - around when we started thinking of a cataclysm - when the Diet and internal politics seemed bland? :2thumbsup:

AussieGiant

11-14-2007, 11:24

I think it is quite delicious, isn't it? Remember there was a time - around when we started thinking of a cataclysm - when the Diet and internal politics seemed bland? :2thumbsup:

Hi Econ,

I was just saying to TC yesterday that I'm starting to look forward to the post cataclysm resumption of the Reich more and more now.

It's going to be a great time!!!

Now onto a sad note...I'm about to head off to Japan this Sunday for another 4 weeks of work (maybe I'll cut it short to three weeks)...my plan is to hand over battle duties to OK, and as usual I will be an active member in all aspects except fighting the battles. Having high speed permanent internet is one of the benefits of managing an application for a company.

I'll be GMT +9 though. Basically on Aussie time like a few of the guy's here.

Oh and Econ...when you have a chance can you reply :beam:

Thanks.

econ21

11-14-2007, 11:57

Oh and Econ...when you have a chance can you reply :beam:

Sorry - I've had 44 PMs since yours, so I am a bit swamped. But anyway, I think Elberhard is going to go for an enigmatic silence at the moment - he's not being obtuse or non-responsive, it is just that it was not clear to him that Arnold's last letter required a reply.

econ21

11-14-2007, 12:25

Just to clarify one issue for the battle of Bern generals: I roll a dice for each order you give. On a "1" it is not implemented. If the general is adjacent to the regiment or division receiving the order, then I do not roll. The general cannot be adjacent to more than two formations. So if you set up a general imbetween two divisions, those two divisions will do what they are told - provided they are close enough to be considered adjacent. (The unit icons should be virtually touching on the map.) I will use the maps provided to identify if the general starts a turn adjacent to a formation.

AussieGiant

11-14-2007, 12:30

Sorry - I've had 44 PMs since yours, so I am a bit swamped. But anyway, I think Elberhard is going to go for an enigmatic silence at the moment - he's not being obtuse or non-responsive, it is just that it was not clear to him that Arnold's last letter required a reply.

Understood.

TinCow

11-14-2007, 13:03

econ21

11-14-2007, 13:12

Hans doesn't have divisions though, due to his command ability. Does that mean his chance of unit orders going astray is calculated for each unit?

FH and I have just clarified that by PM - he's going to group his units into divisions and each turn, he can choose to move a regiment by either a divisional order or a regimental order. It's a trade-off. 20 regimental orders imply rolling some 1s. Divisional orders mean less risk of rolling a 1, but a bigger mess if you do. A divisional order would probably be best if the division is adjacent to Hans, although even then it would imply less flexibility (no micromanaging units).

EDIT: other generals can also give regimental orders, but that means one less divisional order can be given.

TinCow

11-14-2007, 13:21

Got it. You've got a very good system going and it's a pleasure to watch. Do a lot of these mechanics come from table-top game systems you have played before or did you make them up?

econ21

11-14-2007, 13:48

I've come across some games with limits on commands and some randomisation - for example, players draw chits from a cup to see which formations they can move. But this we are basically improvising.

deguerra

11-14-2007, 14:25

If you dont mind me derailing your thread a bit :D

I have now read up on quite a few of the KotR threads, but I must ask: how exactly does it work? Who controls the game, the moves, and how much is added in? I mean presumably, for your (brilliant btw) civil war (or religious war, really) presumably there needed to be a lot of modding of savegames, no?

Also, is it possible to join in this foray of fun and madness at this point in time? If so, what exactly would be required/what does a lowly newbie do?

Sorry for the off-topic, thanks for any and all replies

cheers

-deguerra

TinCow

11-14-2007, 14:46

We are currently in an unusual phase of the game where the normal rules do not apply. We have dubbed it the 'cataclysm' and it has a total duration of 20 game turns. You can find instructions on how it works in the first post in this thread (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=93331). However, we are only 4 turns away from the end of the cataclysm. When it is done, the game will go back to the old style of play, which is described in the first post in this thread (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=94017). It is likely that the players will choose to modify some of the 'normal' rules to take into account what has happened during the cataclysm. That will occur at the next Diet session which will occur after the cataclysm is over in 1340.

All you need to do in order to join is pick a Duchy to start in. Franconia, Swabia, Austria, or Bavaria. The only major change we've made from the KOTR FAQ is that we now spawn recruitable generals for players rather than making them wait for a naturally created family member. Thus, you can join whatever Duchy you want whenever you want and you'll get an in-game avatar immediately.

econ21

11-14-2007, 16:15

Deguerra, in general terms the person elected Chancellor controls the game, the moves etc. At the moment, we have no Chancellor, so TC is doing that. He is also using the console cheats creatively.

What generals typically do is fight their own battles and vote for Chancellors + laws to direct Chancellors. At the moment, they also have the fun of picking their own move from a list of options provided by TC or conjured out of the ether by their own creativity.

You are welcome to join!

Zim

11-14-2007, 20:25

Welcome, Deguerra!
From what I've seen, you picked a good time to join any of the houses. There's a full blown rebellion in Swabia, and all of the houses have their hands full dealing with religious dissidents and attacks from enemy factions.

The Outremer is facing some extraordinary difficulties in the Middle East as well. A more experienced player will have to tell you if you can join them as easily as the real houses, though.

P.S. Go Team Dietrich!

FactionHeir

11-14-2007, 20:42

Becker could use an aide really I think :grin: or Peter.

Privateerkev

11-14-2007, 20:42

The Outremer is facing some extraordinary difficulties in the Middle East as well. A more experienced player will have to tell you if you can join them as easily as the real houses, though.

Outremer is a distinctly separate political entity yet not an actual House per se`. Joining is as easy as being present in the region. It would be up to the King of Outremer whether you get titles or things to do but I assume "soon to be King" Matthias will appreciate any assistance he can get at this point. Plus, Outremer will be a booming place to be after the cataclysm is over so if you want to get in on something from the "groundfloor", now is the time.

Also, be aware that TC's web of politics is only what is public knowledge in the game. Under the surface there is a vast web of alliances and scheming going on in both sides. I have found that this game is much more than "meets the eye" and there are many layers of political intrigue. But since so much of it happens through PM's, you won't know much about it until you get your avatar involved in some of the plots.

AussieGiant

11-14-2007, 20:57

Also, be aware that TC's web of politics is only what is public knowledge in the game. Under the surface there is a vast web of alliances and scheming going on in both sides. I have found that this game is much more than "meets the eye" and there are many layers of political intrigue. But since so much of it happens through PM's, you won't know much about it until you get your avatar involved in some of the plots.

Really?

...jeesh I'm going to have to find out what I'm missing out on.

Privateerkev

11-14-2007, 20:59

Really?

...jeesh I'm going to have to find out what I'm missing out on.

:P

Oh don't act all innocent...

;)

Cecil XIX

11-14-2007, 21:01

Really?

...jeesh I'm going to have to find out what I'm missing out on.

Same here.:laugh4: 'Course, Becker's not likely to care too much one way or the other.

Privateerkev

11-14-2007, 21:04

Same here.:laugh4: 'Course, Becker's not likely to care too much one way or the other.

Then I guess you don't want to know about how Jan and Arnold are actually secret lovers and plan on taking Prague together at the earliest opportunity so they can turn it into their "love den". ^_^

Zim

11-14-2007, 21:21

Step right up folks! Want to support Dietrich von Dassel in his battle against Hans and his forces of oppression but don't know how? Now you can! For a low, low fee of 0 florins, you can have your very own Dietrich supporter pin! Soon coming in a smaller file size for sigs(soon as I figure out how to shrink the file size)!

https://img142.imageshack.us/img142/2871/dietrich001tp1.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

Disclaimer: The views expressed in this advertisement are not neccessarily those of the player, his avatar, or any players and/or avatars associated with them. 0 florin fee is nonrefundable. Offer void in Idaho and Massachusetts.

AussieGiant

11-14-2007, 21:37

Step right up folks! Want to support Dietrich von Dassel in his battle against the forces of oppression but don't know how? Now you can! For a low, low fee of 0 florins, you can have your very own Dietrich supporter pin! Soon coming in a smaller file size for sigs(soon as I figure out how o shrink the file size)!

https://img142.imageshack.us/img142/2871/dietrich001tp1.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

Disclaimer: The views expressed in this advertisement are not neccessarily those of the player, his avatar, or any players and/or avatars associated with them. 0 florin fee is nonrefundable. Offer void in Idaho and Massachusetts.

LMAO!!

PK, Cecil...I'm shocked...really, truly I am. I've got way to much real work on my plate to get too involved in the back room stuff.

Who or where is the latest save...I need to murder...sorry suppress some rebels.

Zim

11-14-2007, 22:05

New announcement on the "Dietrich Supporter" Pin product:
The product is now available in a smaller, handier, albiet slightly more crudely done version for sig usage. Show your support to Dietrich, buy a badge today!

https://img440.imageshack.us/img440/5/dietrichpinqm8.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

Just copy this url into your sig with the IMG brackets around it.

https://img440.imageshack.us/img440/5/dietrichpinqm8.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

FactionHeir

11-14-2007, 22:11

Its nice you support Dietrich and all, but no reason to spam the OOC thread with such things.

TinCow

11-14-2007, 22:11

Who or where is the latest save...I need to murder...sorry suppress some rebels.

"Rebels" is not the proper PC term. I believe you meant "People of religious faith who use proactive methods to advance the interests of small business owners, including undertakers, construction workers, and blacksmiths."

AussieGiant

11-14-2007, 22:17

Its nice you support Dietrich and all, but no reason to spam the OOC thread with such things.

Oh dear :book:

AussieGiant

11-14-2007, 22:18

"Rebels" is not the proper PC term. I believe you meant "People of religious faith who use proactive methods to advance the interests of small business owners, including undertakers, construction workers, and blacksmiths."

Riiight, that's what I meant :laugh4:

Now where is the save? Anyone...Bueller...anyone.

Zim

11-14-2007, 22:20

Not planning to. Now that I have managed to get an image with a small enough file size to fit into a sig, I doubt I'll be making any more posts on the subject.

:inquisitive: And I'm not sure how two posts like that are "spam" on a thread that's seen such serious posts as jokes about betting on the battle and King Jan's secret love affair with Arnold.

Its nice you support Dietrich and all, but no reason to spam the OOC thread with such things.

AussieGiant

11-14-2007, 22:25

Not planning to. Now that I have managed to get an image with a small enough file size to fit into a sig, I doubt I'll be making any more posts on the subject.

:inquisitive: And I'm not sure how two posts like that are "spam" on a thread that's seen such serious posts as jokes about betting on the battle and King Jan's secret love affair with Arnold.

Zim my man excellent response...you're going to do just fine here fella...carry on posting leisurely on what ever you like my friend :laugh4:

edit:

I'm taking the save!!

GeneralHankerchief

11-14-2007, 22:49

Love the badges Zim. :laugh4:

AussieGiant

11-14-2007, 23:01

Rogue two, rogue two; this is gold leader.

The rebels threat has been eliminated, you may commence your landing.

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/kotr1330-7.zip

Stuperman

11-14-2007, 23:40

I like the sign Zim

Hans is the one who will need the support after the battle, MUAHAHAHAhaha.

Zim

11-14-2007, 23:56

Thanks, AG. When I was younger I would have responded to a challenge like that by backing down or with undue aggression. Now that I'm an old man in my twenties I've found a happy medium in being crotchety. ~;p

Thanks GH and Stuperman, I'm glad you like them. :beam:

I probably won't be posting anymore "advertisements" unless some less graphically challenged person designs a better looking badge for sigs. ~:)

gibsonsg91921

11-15-2007, 00:31

hey deguerra, join franconia as a recruitable general so we wont be :skull: ed

Zim

11-15-2007, 00:36

hey deguerra, join franconia as a recruitable general so we wont be :skull: ed

I second that. From what I've seen, the Principality is equally worried about the Danish menace, and equally :skull: ed if they do too well..

gibsonsg91921

11-15-2007, 00:40

btw, i am on reserve duty during the week, TC. if anyone wants to fight my battle for me, that would be swell! just PM me if u want to fight it and ill probably say yes - DONT GET ME KILLED! keep peter alive at all costs, even if u have to keep him away from the action. he's like 10 hitpoints and 9 dread, so he should live pretty well but beware. i do not want a dead peter. or eternal vengeance shall be mine!

TinCow

11-15-2007, 00:49

I suspect that the Battle for Bern will last through the weekend, so you can still fight the battle yourself. If Bern somehow ends before the weekend, I will fight your battle for you if you want.

gibsonsg91921

11-15-2007, 02:33

ok thank you very much! i know how busy you are though. if someone else wants to fight it to take the workload off, they can

btw - i announced my heir(s) in the franconia thread. ill messenger service it while im at it. fritz is the steward if im unable to do stuff before im dead, and dieter bresch takes over as duke when i die.

Ramses II CP

11-15-2007, 03:58

I've been reading the Cataclysm threads avidly, and I've got to say it looks like a load of fun. I've read some of the other threads as well, notably the Outremer thread, and I think if Franconia needs hands, I'm reputed to be handy. :laugh4:

Which is to say, got room for another noob?

If there's any flexibility in avatar choice I would like a high loyalty one, without regard to other stats. I can work with it either way, of course, just the background bit I've got in mind at the moment works with loyalty.

:egypt:

gibsonsg91921

11-15-2007, 04:01

we got room for plenty of noobs :skull:

plz join franconia!

Ignoramus

11-15-2007, 04:21

Welcome, Ramses! You've chosen a great time to join. This is probably the funnest section of the game.

GeneralHankerchief

11-15-2007, 05:01

It's awesome that we're getting so many new players as of late.

Keep in mind, guys, as TinCow said before, that after 1330 there are four turns of Cataclysm left - then we go back to our normal Chancellor-controlled style of play. Not that it's not fun, it's just not at the same level. However, I'm certain that the Diet of 1340 will be quite an event; we should probably think about extending it a day or two.

Privateerkev

11-15-2007, 05:08

:inquisitive: And I'm not sure how two posts like that are "spam" on a thread that's seen such serious posts as jokes about betting on the battle and King Jan's secret love affair with Arnold.

Are you daring to imply that my post was anything but deadly serious!?!?

:furious3:

:clown:

deguerra

11-15-2007, 06:06

ok, i think i understand most of it now. i do have two important questions though:

1. are you actually each using M2TW or is it only/mainly the Chancellor that does things "in game"?

2. What kind of availability do you require of your players. i AM just finishing my uni exams (tomorrow, yay) and have two weeks before i do some work experience (although that wont stop me from participating) but ive been known to need a break from my computer for a day or two once in a while. I would love to join, but I dont want to upset people or the game by not giving it the time it needs and deserves.

cheers
-deguerra

Ignoramus

11-15-2007, 06:14

1. You don't need MTW2 to play, but if you can't fight battles. The Chancellor needs to have MTW2.

2. As much time as you're willing to give. It's basically up to you.

deguerra

11-15-2007, 06:34

Right. Well getting M2TW is not a problem, I just dont have it installed at the moment, and believe it was last seen somewhere in the depths of my cupboard somewhere :D

In any case, for better of for worse, im in! Now, where do I sign, and what do I have to do (who do I have to bribe/sleep with) to get up and running?

cheers
-deguerra

Privateerkev

11-15-2007, 07:10

In any case, for better of for worse, im in! Now, where do I sign, and what do I have to do (who do I have to bribe/sleep with) to get up and running?

Econ is the official "distributor of the avatars". As for method, I found it's best to just ask him for things. ^_^

Stuperman

11-15-2007, 07:12

econ21 seems to be the de facto, uh, roster keeper. I'm pretty sure that joining which ever house you want won't be a problem.

edit: beat me by 2 minutes PK :D

Zim

11-15-2007, 07:59

Are you daring to imply that my post was anything but deadly serious!?!?

:furious3:

Not at all, my friend. Your post was every bit as serious as mine! I meant to imply that since my posts were as serious as those other ones, they couldn't be spam, which would consist of silly posts. :clown:

Privateerkev

11-15-2007, 09:07

Not at all, my friend. Your post was every bit as serious as mine! I meant to imply that since my posts were as serious as those other ones, they couldn't be spam, which would consist of silly posts. :clown:

My post was so much seriouser than yours. And no spam exists in the OOC thread. Every post is full of meaning. Especially this one. Complex deep contextual meaning.

:clown:

Zim

11-15-2007, 09:29

Ah, but my posts are the most seriousest of them all. They contain so many layers of contextual meaning that they don't mean anything at all.

:clown:

My post was so much seriouser than yours. And no spam exists in the OOC thread. Every post is full of meaning. Especially this one. Complex deep contextual meaning.

:clown:

econ21

11-15-2007, 10:04

Welcome, deguerra and Ramses II CP. ~:wave:

The assignment of avatars will require some thought, so I will have a think and consult some other players. We are in something of a hiatus until the Siege of Bern is resolved anyway.

deguerra - please do re-install M2TW and apply the fix linked in the first post of this thread. It is very hard to keep up with everything unless you can periodically inspect a savegame and having your general fight his own battles is a big part of the fun.

Zim

11-15-2007, 10:19

Econ21, do you mean the trait fix? If so I'll download and install it right away.

econ21

11-15-2007, 10:26

Yes - we use a lightly modded version of M2TW; kotrfix which was created by Factionheir. It does not change the core gameplay, but alters some of the traits and allows recruitable generals.

Zim

11-15-2007, 11:34

I'm a little confused by the readme for the mod. Is it saying I have to make some kind of batch file to run the fixes? It's been so long I'm not sure I remember how.

Yes - we use a lightly modded version of M2TW; kotrfix which was created by Factionheir. It does not change the core gameplay, but alters some of the traits and allows recruitable generals.

AussieGiant

11-15-2007, 11:36

I'm a little confused by the readme for the mod. Is it saying I have to make some kind of batch file to run the fixes? It's been so long I'm not sure I remember how.

What I did is create a second desktop icon with the slightly adjusted file path which is explained.

I then give it a nice title to make sure I always remember to use that one.

Then you're set.

Zim

11-15-2007, 11:47

Ok, I extracted the files to the correct places and double checked to make sure the right files were now in the Data and Text folders.

Did you mean making a copy of the shortcut for the game? If so, I'm not sure how to change the file path (opening it just runs the normal game).

What I did is create a second desktop icon with the slightly adjusted file path which is explained.

I then give it a nice title to make sure I always remember to use that one.

Then you're set.

FactionHeir

11-15-2007, 12:04

Yes, create a shortcut linking directly to medieval2.exe

In the target section of the shortcut, add:

--io.file_first

To the end of the current line and run it.

To see whether it is working, load up a KOTR savegame and hmmm check whether Arnold shows up as Saint or Inspiring. I think there's more, but without a library update, its difficult to remember.
Alternatively, give a random avatar via console (have to select him first and be outside settlement):

give_trait this AssassinMaster 3

And see if he's getting any Authority for it.

If you got difficulty figuring out the shortcut, you can instead modify your medieval2.preference.cfg file to add at the very start:

[io]
file_first = 1

Then mark read-only and start medieval2.exe normally.

AussieGiant

11-15-2007, 12:11

Zim,

the unofficial way to check is exactly that.

The title of my character should be Inspiring not Saint...as he's definately not a saint :laugh4: Which is what brought up this topic just recently.

He's in Ragusa, east of Rome on the continent near modern day Croatia on the coast.

Zim

11-15-2007, 12:25

Alright, I had a little bit of trouble with the shortcut(kept getting an error saying that wasn't a valid target). However, I changed my cfg file, started a game up, and giving a character that trait gave him +2 authority. I'm going to go hunt down a KOTR save to check and make sure.

Thanks for all the help.

Update: I loaded up a KOTR save and, sure enough, he's "Arnold the Inspiring". I also noted that recruitable generals (another feature of the mod, I think) are also in. Looks like I'm good to go. Thanks again for the help!

deguerra

11-15-2007, 12:36

Hey Zim,

regarding the invalid target thing, make sure to have any adjustments to the target outside of the shortcut:

ie "C:\Program Files\Paradox Interactive\Doomsday (CORE)\Hoi2.exe" mod-CORE2

where the mod-CORE2 is outside of the brackets ("") denoting the file path

-deguerra

Zim

11-15-2007, 12:42

Ah, so that was my mistake. I have it working with the config file, so I'll probably stick with that rather than risk screwing things up through my incompetence. :clown: It's nice to know, though.

P.S. Nice sig!

Hey Zim,

regarding the invalid target thing, make sure to have any adjustments to the target outside of the shortcut:

ie "C:\Program Files\Paradox Interactive\Doomsday (CORE)\Hoi2.exe" mod-CORE2

where the mod-CORE2 is outside of the brackets ("") denoting the file path

-deguerra

econ21

11-15-2007, 15:54

I've consulted about avatars. Next turn, we will create recruitable generals for our two newest players.

deguera will be given a Swabian, loyal to Hummel.

Ramses II CP will be given a Franconian.

TinCow

11-15-2007, 16:03

FYI, my recruitable general problem is fixed. I will take responsibility for spawning them.

AussieGiant

11-15-2007, 16:52

So econ,

Just for my benefit. You fight these various battles on the map using customised battles in MTWII?

Cheers
AG

econ21

11-15-2007, 16:59

Just for my benefit. You fight these various battles on the map using customised battles in MTWII?

I use custom battles to get a feel for what would happen. I try to split combats in a turn into groups. Then I fight the mini-combat from both sides vs the AI. I take a view of the "average" result, based on commonsense and usually go with that. It may be hard to do with a siege though as the AI can't be relied upon to defend a wall at a given point (or at all, sometimes). But custom battles should still give me something to go on.

AussieGiant

11-15-2007, 17:25

I use custom battles to get a feel for what would happen. I try to split combats in a turn into groups. Then I fight the mini-combat from both sides vs the AI. I take a view of the "average" result, based on commonsense and usually go with that. It may be hard to do with a siege though as the AI can't be relied upon to defend a wall at a given point (or at all, sometimes). But custom battles should still give me something to go on.

WOW...incredible...you and TC are amazing.

FactionHeir

11-15-2007, 17:32

I've consulted about avatars. Next turn, we will create recruitable generals for our two newest players.

deguera will be given a Swabian, loyal to Hummel.

Ramses II CP will be given a Franconian.

So that makes +2 generals for Hümmel as Zim is also taking a Hümmel supporter?

The Bern battle seems to be going into the decisive phase. Should be interesting to see how it resolves.

AussieGiant

11-15-2007, 17:44

Igno's gotta be happy about that.

Make you wonder if I should go on some recruiting drive like real politics. :laugh4:

TinCow

11-15-2007, 17:47

So that makes +2 generals for Hümmel as Zim is also taking a Hümmel supporter?

+2 generals, but pretty much +0 additional resources. 2 more generals does not mean 2 more armies or double the wealth. He will either have to keep his military concentrated, which means new generals add nothing to him, or he will have to disperse the units between the new people, which will make him more versatile, but less able to defeat large armies. Plus, he's about to lose Caen and will be limited to Militia, Flemish Pikes, Hand Gunners, and Arquebusiers. Not exactly a match for a high level castle army.

More people does not mean more power during the cataclysm.

Ramses II CP

11-15-2007, 19:14

You know, I think I'd take two general's bodyguards against any six companies of AI castle units (But not 1 vs 3!). They aren't armies, but they are extremely battlefield effective as long as you're willing to risk them.

Needless to say, don't expected Nameless von Franconia to be hanging back in battle. :laugh4:

:egypt:

Zim

11-15-2007, 19:25

+2 generals, but pretty much +0 additional resources.

I beg to differ. Aside from two units of formidable heavy cavalry (and any small number of units that may be spawning with one or both of the generals ~;)), Hummel has gained two additional heads with which to consult about the state of his small principality. He can now defend both cities with players-led battles with or without jeapordizing his own avatar. He can use his new generals in battles against hostile players, rather than risk Hummel's death and the disentegration of his Empire.

They may not come with fully upgraded armies of Mounted and Dismounted Gothic Knights, Pavise crossbowmen, and Ritters, but I thnk that two new generals adds a lot of resources to the Principality, especially considering how poor it was in them to begin with. :yes:

Cecil XIX

11-15-2007, 19:52

I beg to differ. Aside from two units of formidable heavy cavalry (and any small number of units that may be spawning with one or both of the generals ~;)), Hummel has gained two additional heads with which to consult about the state of his small principality. He can now defend both cities with players-led battles with or without jeapordizing his own avatar. He can use his new generals in battles against hostile players, rather than risk Hummel's death and the disentegration of his Empire.

They may not come with fully upgraded armies of Mounted and Dismounted Gothic Knights, Pavise crossbowmen, and Ritters, but I thnk that two new generals adds a lot of resources to the Principality, especially considering how poor it was in them to begin with. :yes:

Very good point, Zim. And not only that, if they survive Hummel will have a lot more political power in the next Diet.

FactionHeir

11-15-2007, 20:02

What Zim said, and of course that they have options such as raising troops during the cataclysm as well and can, as any avatar, hire troops from settlements and lead attacks against others rather than autoresolve or armies being confined to settlements.

gibsonsg91921

11-15-2007, 23:12

Yeah, I am most interested in what will happen next Diet session regarding the Principality of Swabia. Peter is concerned on this issue. He is not sure which route to take. Maybe I'll debate it in another subjective story.

GeneralHankerchief

11-16-2007, 01:00

If anyone is going to have a problem supplying orders within 24 hours over the weekend, please let me know.

I'm fine for the weekend, but American Thanksgiving is coming up on Thursday which might affect me and Privateerkev if the battle is not resolved by then.

FactionHeir

11-16-2007, 01:05

Don't worry, your troops will just stand idle and defend themselves. Not much more they need to do in a siege defense, right? :grin2:

Do you mean this Thursday (as in the Thursday that just passed 5 minutes ago) or next?

TinCow

11-16-2007, 01:06

American Thanksgiving is next Thursday, not this one. A delay due to Thanksgiving is not a big deal, because I will be gone for it as well. I don't think it will last that long, though, and I hope to have the next turn (1332) running over that weekend.

GeneralHankerchief

11-16-2007, 01:07

Next Thursday, and stop messing with my mind.

Zim

11-16-2007, 01:54

Igno's gotta be happy about that.

Make you wonder if I should go on some recruiting drive like real politics. :laugh4:

I guess it's safe to admit now that I made my decision before even having a strong idea of the sitiation in Swabia. Ignoramus was the first and only person to send me an IC pm about who to join. Fellow players in the hotseat campaigns I'm in can attest to my being a sucker for IC negotiations.

Thanks for the acknowledgement, guys. Of course, Tincow's point is perfectly valid. Hummel's new generals will not magically make Hummel have more money for soldiers, nor spawn with tremendous armies that will lay waste to all the Principality's enemies. I was just thinking out loud about the flip side of the argument, which I thought also beared mentioning.

Tamur

11-16-2007, 04:54

Between TinCow's post on upcoming battles and now, there's a lot of water under the proverbial stream crossing, so I may have missed someone taking the save. I've taken the save he posted, since I didn't see where anyone else had. However, I'll wait 30 minutes or so before fighting, just in case anyone sees this and knows the save has been used since then.

*twiddles thumbs*

TinCow

11-16-2007, 05:05

The link in my post (this one (http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/kotr1330-7.zip)) is still the most recent save.

Tamur

11-16-2007, 05:10

Wonderful, thanks TinCow, I'll post back up in an hour or so.

Tamur

11-16-2007, 06:17

Battle fought, victory with some new scars for Fritz! He needed more, he wasn't ugly enough already.

http://cicero.modwest.com/images/tw/kotr/postbattle-1330-1.jpg

Save is here:

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/kotr1330-8.zip

I have one more against the Danes this round, but I will have to return to this another time due to the hour here.

Privateerkev

11-16-2007, 10:06

Happy Birthday AG!!!

:balloon2:

AussieGiant

11-16-2007, 11:15

Happy Birthday AG!!!

:balloon2:

Thanks PK!!!

And if people are not sure if an increase in avatar's is a respective house is not valuable...I'm more than happy to "bring them up to speed" with the multitude of benefits...and there are tonnes that go beyond just the militart aspect.

TinCow

11-16-2007, 13:00

Updated

The deadline has expired and orders have NOT been received from:
Athalwolf von Salza (Warluster) - Orders received
Lorenz Zirn (Roadkill) - Orders received
Friedrich Karolinger (Warmaster Horus) - Temporarily Absent, he notified us in advance. Thus, this is not an issue. Included on the list only for my own future memory.

I understand that this turn will be longer than usual due to the Battle for Bern. I will thus continue to accept orders for the near future. However, I am getting annoyed at the sluggish response over the last two turns. I will not hold the game up for people who do not submit orders.

Also, whoever wins the Battle for Bern will have an opportunity to pacify one province per Elector after the battle. This applies to Dietrich von Dassel (GeneralHankerchief), Hans (FactionHeir), and Jan von Hamburg (Privateerkev).

Pending Battles:

Save as of 11:30am EST, Nov. 17th: http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/kotr1330-12.zip

Péter von Kastilien (gibsonsg91921):

You have recruited a regiment of Teutonic Knights and stand ready to pacify the lands around Frankfurt. If you are successful, the locals will respond to your speech with a moderate levy of troops to defend Franconia.

Fritz von Kastilien (Tamur): (Yes, Again)

You eliminated the rebel army and pacified Stettin, but the city itself remains under siege by the Danes. If you want to keep your County, you had best relieve it.

Fredericus Erlach (Stuperman):

You have trained the last of the Corsican peasants to turn them into Pavise Crossbowmen. You are now ready to face off against the Byzantines besieging Milan.

Note: The garrison will join you in the attack. If you plan on harassing the enemy, then withdrawing, it would probably be a good idea not to have the garrison under AI control. If the garrison is destroyed completely and you withdraw, the Byzantines might take the city instantly. If you leave the garrison under human control, you can ensure that at least some survive (if any enter the battle at all). Also, when you are done, you can move south and pacify Genoa by attacking the rebels there. If you run out of movement points, thus preventing you from fighting both battles, enter the following command in the console to give yourself more movement points:

character_reset "Fredericus Erlach"

Wolfgang Hummel (Ignoramus):

You have hired two regiments of Flemish Pikemen. Both Antwerp and Bruges are suffering from religious warfare. You may pacify ONE of the two provinces.

econ21

11-16-2007, 18:50

Two questions I want to ask each of the battle of Bern participants*:

(Q1) Suppose your general gets into a melee that he is going to lose. Do you want to:
(a) fight to the death?
(b) surrender?
(c) flee?

(Q2) As Q1, but suppose flight is impossible - surrender or death?

Maybe include the answer in your next set of orders.

If I don't receive an answer, I will assume you will flee if possible, otherwise surrender.

*Unfortunately, this does not really apply to Hugo, as he no longer is a combat unit and is just giving out orders.

EDIT: Answers received. Interestingly, all three generals picked different responses!

Ignoramus

11-16-2007, 23:40

I'm guessing Hans chose to fight to the death?

Edit: Taking the save.

FactionHeir

11-16-2007, 23:48

Ignoramus: After you finish this save, finish the MPC one as well, will you? Been waiting almost a week for your turn.

Ignoramus

11-17-2007, 00:15

Battle finished.

FH: Sorry about that; will get on it.

GeneralHankerchief

11-17-2007, 00:33

Don't forget to upload the save.

TinCow

11-17-2007, 00:35

He did, he just forgot the link:

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/kotr1330-10.zip

gibsonsg91921

11-17-2007, 00:47

happy bday AG!

Zim

11-17-2007, 02:17

Happy Birthday, AG! ~:cheers:

:2thumbsup: Looks like things are really happening in the Battle of Bern.

econ21

11-17-2007, 02:44

Looks like things are really happening in the Battle of Bern.

Definitely. I have all the orders in for turn 5 and it is going to be another dramatic one. Unfortunately, I am too exhausted to resolve it properly now. I am not sure when I can escape from family duties to do it tomorrow, so it may be the evening before there is a result.

Zim

11-17-2007, 03:02

This evening? :beam: What time zone would you happen to be in?

Definitely. I have all the orders in for turn 5 and it is going to be another dramatic one. Unfortunately, I am too exhausted to resolve it properly now. I am not sure when I can escape from family duties to do it tomorrow, so it may be the evening before there is a result.

GeneralHankerchief

11-17-2007, 04:58

Econ is UK time, or GMT +0.

Zim

11-17-2007, 05:36

Econ is UK time, or GMT +0.

Drat, evening for him must mean his tomorrow evening, or about mid-day tomorrow for me. :sweatdrop: I guess I'll survive...somehow. :clown:

On a side note, I should assume by the number of threatening pms I've gotten (IC, not OOC :beam: ) that I've gotten more than bargained for when I picked my side in the civil war?
Either that, or it confirms my self-delusion about my importance in the game. ~;)

GeneralHankerchief

11-17-2007, 05:42

I wouldn't worry about them. FactionHeir should be concentrating on actually winning one lousy battle in this war of his first. :beam:

deguerra

11-17-2007, 05:56

where are my threatening messages! i want threatening messages!

Zim

11-17-2007, 06:00

I wouldn't worry about them. FactionHeir should be concentrating on actually winning one lousy battle in this war of his first. :beam:

Hey now, no need to antagonize the guy with the most Swabian settlements and resources from the Kaiser....unless you start winning the battle, then it's ok. :clown: Besides, I haven't gotten any IC communications from Duke Hans.

where are my threatening messages! i want threatening messages!

Maybe you need to post an introductory story and make up a fake placeholder name to get them? :laugh4:

Ignoramus

11-17-2007, 06:03

GH can do what he likes; he's crossed the Rubicon.

Generally, it's a compliment when you receive threatening messages; it means that your opponents are worried about you.

Zim

11-17-2007, 06:13

I was more worried about myself than General Hankerchief. ~;)
The one threatening one I got was mostly an excuse to include an kind OOC welcome. Another one was vaguely hostile but entirely IC and less threatening. I'm just joking around. :clown:

GH can do what he likes; he's crossed the Rubicon.

Generally, it's a compliment when you receive threatening messages; it means that your opponents are worried about you.

Stuperman

11-17-2007, 07:28

I got the save.

Warluster

11-17-2007, 07:28

Generally, it's a compliment when you receive threatening messages; it means that your opponents are worried about you.

Or if a murder is coming up... muhahhaha! I usually keep a few Folders on my PC full of Sent Threatening Messages and Received.

I suppose the Bern battle is a sortta 'Beggining of the End' for one of the factions.

Ignoramus

11-17-2007, 07:34

Hans will die in about 12 turns, and then where will be his cause?

Stuperman

11-17-2007, 08:49

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/kotr1330-11.zip

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1750254&postcount=183

hrm....sorry about your county OK

Zim

11-17-2007, 09:29

Hans will die in about 12 turns, and then where will be his cause?

I give up, is something happening in 12 turns, or is that a crack about his in game age? :clown:

Ignoramus

11-17-2007, 09:30

Hans is 56, and almost all generals die at 61. So he hasn't got long left.

Zim

11-17-2007, 09:32

Oh, good, my second guess was right. :beam:

OverKnight

11-17-2007, 09:40

hrm....sorry about your county OK

Ehh. . .by 1232 I'll still be ahead a County.

I guess the New and Improved Three Gold Chevron Greek Army of Doom shows that adding experience works wonders. I just hope we haven't over-compensated.

Thanks for making the effort to relieve at least. :2thumbsup:

Now excuse me while I go to wire the Iron Bridge with explosives. . .

FactionHeir

11-17-2007, 11:08

Hans will die in about 12 turns, and then where will be his cause?

With his successor? :grin2:

Henry lived till a high age (63) and Heinrich I think too. Why shouldn't Hans?

econ21

11-17-2007, 12:16

hrm....sorry about your county OK

Any chance you will be writing a battle report for that? I always find defeats more interesting than victories. From the stats, it looks like the AI did to us what we keeping doing to them.

TinCow

11-17-2007, 16:14

I don't know whether to be happy that I finally managed to have the AI defeat the players, or annoyed that it happened in my own Duchy.

[edit:] Taking the save to clear out Innsbruck.

Ramses II CP

11-17-2007, 17:26

I imagine lack of spearmen was your downfall? I usually find that only unopposed cavalry superiority allows the AI's aggression to work that well.

:egypt:

TinCow

11-17-2007, 17:34

Done.

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/kotr1330-12.zip

It is a nasty, nasty situation in Bavaria. I did NOT expect Stuperman to do so little damage to the Byzantine army. It is very worrisome. We are actually looking at the loss of all of Italy. At least no one can accuse me of playing favorites!

OverKnight

11-17-2007, 17:50

Was that the first triple gold death stack (TGDS) we've faced?

I'll give the AI this, compared to infantry it can handle horsemen (including to a degree mounted archers) very well, as Ramses said above. That's why I'm leary, econ too I think, of taking on that Kwarzi stack north of Antioch.

I second wanting to see a detailed battle report. We must learn from our defeats.

For a siege assault, Bern turned into a surprising field battle, at least to the north. I'm looking forward to the afternoon. :2thumbsup:

TinCow

11-17-2007, 17:59

That was the first full gold stack, yes, but not the first gold in general. Antwerp was defended by about half a stack of gold Danes, but Ignoramus manged to take it. Here are his comments on the battle:

Fought and won - just.

That has to be the most intense battle I have ever fought yet in MTW2. I only had about 30 seconds left when I won, and lost 70% of my army.

The next gold battle will be at Magdeburg, which I expect to be assaulted this turn. There are two Polish stacks attacking it and one is gold. However, the gold is the reinforcement army and has no siege equipment of its own. In those situations, the reinforcement army never even moves until a route is clear through the walls, so the battle will be more like fighting two armies in a row on the map rather than two at the same time.

It will be tough, but the AI is still very poor at assaulting and Magdeburg is a citadel. It will probably be a desperate defense, but if anything can beat a gold stack, it's a citadel defended by a full stack professional army. I think that prudent withdrawals to the inner defenses will be the key. There is also the added complication that Tancred von Tyrolia will be nearby with reinforcements. There is a major danger of one or both of the Franconians being killed in the battle.

GeneralHankerchief

11-17-2007, 18:02

For a siege assault, Bern turned into a surprising field battle, at least to the north. I'm looking forward to the afternoon.

I have to say that from a player's standpoint, this is more intense than the Battle for Rome. By this time in the battle with Rome, the only things left to resolve were how long it would take to clean up, and whether we would get Servius or not.

Here, I'm not sure who's going to win yet. It's going to be very close and methinks a Pyrrhic victory for whoever does come out alive.

gibsonsg91921

11-17-2007, 18:14

uh oh, franconia's in trouble. im worried about my own playing skill level.

AussieGiant

11-17-2007, 18:40

Thanks again to gibson and Zim for the b'day wishes.

I have to say the level of comfort is rapidly diminishing...and that is a great sign. TC you're doing a great job!!

Honest, after all the external effort we've given the AI the trick seems to be gold chevron armies. If we could match them up with a few AI avatar general's then we'd have a hell of a game and could play at just about vanilla levels in many other areas.

And again econ...and those in the Bern battle, excellent stuff. I've been reading avidly since the beginning. Hans seems to be a one man wrecking machine and nearly impossible to overcome.

FactionHeir

11-17-2007, 18:45

There's more wishes in the Frontroom AG :grin:

Bern battle is indeed difficult. You can predict the AI's next move, but its more a chance thing to figure out the Human's moves. The forces up north are quite evenly matched with the inbalanced stats that 1.2 left us with, and that makes things only more intriguing.

econ's been doing considerable amount of work to keep this running quickly, and I very much like the implementation of his PvP system, although I do have one or two gripes with it. (Like giving loyalists 6xp and rebels 4xp. Why not just give loyalists 2xp and rebels 0?)

econ21

11-17-2007, 19:57

...I do have one or two gripes with it. (Like giving loyalists 6xp and rebels 4xp. Why not just give loyalists 2xp and rebels 0?)

Two reasons:
(1) It raises morale across the board, helping to model some of the generals' traits;
(2) More importantly, because 4xp and 6xp give the same +2 bonus to attack and defence stats, so the only difference is a bigger morale boost to loyalists. With 0 and 2xp, the loyalists would get a +1 to attack and defence that rebels don't get. The generals' traits affect morale, not attack and defence stats.

Ramses II CP

11-17-2007, 20:37

The real trouble with AI sieges is that quite often even if the player is determined not to exploit the AI, the AI puts itself in a situation that exploits itself. For example, you can't sally any units out of the gates because if they rout and get caught between the closed gates and a ram, the ram is then stuck and the gates are secure (The AI won't send infantry to clean up, and can't position them to catch the routers stuck in the gatehouse anyway). Of course the only smart thing to do against a ram (Or artillery) is sally, so you're stuck being a stupid player or abusing a stupid AI.

Similarly the AI will never, in my experience, move ladders or bring towers inside the walls, so after the first level of the citadel you don't need to defend the walls at all. Just park your archers up there and burn the rams. Also the reinforcement army most of the time won't show any of the smart patience of the first army, they'll either sit way back and do nothing or pour in en masse as soon as the first gates fall. So you end up with an immense, confused mass of troops that block each other and get torn up by towers.

Quite frankly even if you avoid the most obvious abuses it's hard for me to imagine a player losing a fortress siege, much less a citadel, almost without regard to troop numbers, as long as the timer is on. I suppose if the AI managed to build and man three rams you'd wind up short on fire arrows, but by the time the third one moves in the streets are usually clogged up enough that it spends twenty minutes wandering around trying to reach the gates (Pathing in citadels is, uhmm, interesting. See the funny screenshots thread.).

I came close once with a fortress defended by two companies of peasant archers and two of levy spearmen against a double Mongol stack, but they only had two rams and I burned the second one just as it reached the inner gate. Siege over.

:egypt: (Sorry to write a whole article, the siege AI just bugs me that much)

FactionHeir

11-17-2007, 20:52

Quite true. I have dedicated some 4 or 5 very long posts in the buglist on the siege AI too.

Ferret

11-17-2007, 21:13

The next gold battle will be at Magdeburg, which I expect to be assaulted this turn. There are two Polish stacks attacking it and one is gold. However, the gold is the reinforcement army and has no siege equipment of its own. In those situations, the reinforcement army never even moves until a route is clear through the walls, so the battle will be more like fighting two armies in a row on the map rather than two at the same time.

It will be tough, but the AI is still very poor at assaulting and Magdeburg is a citadel. It will probably be a desperate defense, but if anything can beat a gold stack, it's a citadel defended by a full stack professional army. I think that prudent withdrawals to the inner defenses will be the key. There is also the added complication that Tancred von Tyrolia will be nearby with reinforcements. There is a major danger of one or both of the Franconians being killed in the battle.

*gulp* I have never played M2TW on anything more than Medium difficulty :sweatdrop:

Dutch_Guy: when/if they do assault would you like me to keep Tancred out of combat and withdraw him if the battle looks lost?

Stuperman

11-17-2007, 21:14

I think the loss was a combination of Archer/cav inferiority, and A chivalrous general. (and a little incompetence on my behalf)

I placed my merc xbowmen, peasant archers, Dismounted Imperial Knights, spearmen, halbred, my half unit of Feudal knights and General's BG on the high ground to the North. Hoping to get their line to turn so I could hit it with everything else from behind. Everything else being 2 FK's, 4 DFK's and my Pavise xbowmen who were hiddden in the thick woods on the south and west part of the map.

Well, my 'bait' force got pounded by their archers and had a tough slog against the Varangian Guard routing after a very short amount of time, meanwhile their cataphraks ran wide right into my hidden units, seeing my bait force almost dissolved and the enemy general still not exposed, I used the hidden knights to screen the withdrawl of the DKFs, GBG, and PXBowmen.

About this time the town milita units started showing up, Given that they were dead either way, I ran them up to the high ground, and using a funnel type rock formation did as much damage to the Byzantines as I could, they held well for exhausted local militia.

All prisoners were released, the little animated man died on milan and they are besieging an empty city. I disbanded a unit of 2 halbred, and a unit of 3 merc crossbowmen.

I could have probably killed more of them if I put everything on the high ground, but my losses substantially higher, as my 'withdraw path' went right through thier line. Also I dreaded general would have been an asset, as winning this battle by attrition wouldn't (doesn't?) work.

Ramses II CP

11-17-2007, 21:15

I was unable to resist the temptation to play this battle, having read about it and posted what I did. There's a very serious problem with it (The AI has no possibility of victory); to avoid spoiling anyone is it okay for me to PM Tincow the details?

:egypt:

FactionHeir

11-17-2007, 21:21

Since TC isn't fighting it and he is GMing, I don't think he would mind knowing about it (I can even guess what it is). Whether he does something about it or not is another matter of course.

FactionHeir

11-17-2007, 21:23

Stuperman

11-17-2007, 21:25

Oh, I didn't know that.

FactionHeir

11-17-2007, 21:28

I was actually trying to say, that Milan isn't lost yet. You can move a unit inside to draw out the siege :yes:

Stuperman

11-17-2007, 21:34

Should I have done that instead? move myself into my addopted Duchy? can the rebel stack in Genoa region be respawned. Had I known I would have, it seems like the most Fredericus-ish thing to do, but if it will cause headaches or consistancy issues, don't worry about it.

I would effectively be dead then wouldn't I though. unless that army is defeatable in that composition hmmm... I don't want freddy to die, but I do want the siege drawn out.

FactionHeir

11-17-2007, 21:38

You could have someone else move a unit there or send a cavalry unit (which still has MP) inside. Any one unit will do. Can only move in 1 stack (regardless of how many units) though.

Ramses II CP

11-17-2007, 21:40

Okay, PM away. Hope I didn't set a bad precedent by goofing off to play interesting looking battles on the side. :no:

:egypt:

TinCow

11-17-2007, 21:42

I just checked and FH is right. You can move an army into Milan even though it is besieged. I may consider doing that with Lothar himself. From a RP standpoint, the battle against the Byzantines was fought in the field, which would have temporarily left the back door to the city open. An army could have slipped through in that time. I just need to decide if I want to risk Lothar's death, since there's no escape from a siege. A city wall is far less defensible than a citadel...