Suggestions for Egyptians

[andrewt]

Can't CA add a few higher tech units for Egyptians as well as for the other Muslim and Orthodox nations? Either that or raise the strength and prices of some of their units especially the redundant ones. Desert archers are too much like regular ones and nubian spearmen are only a little different from regular spearmen, even if the Egyptian variant is better.

Right now, I'm only starting to get castle units but I don't have anywhere to tech to anymore and have more cash than I need since Egyptian lands are rich but their units are so cheap that pumping out units continuously from 4-6 different provinces and ships from 3 different provinces still gives a lot of money that I want to use but can't.

Muwahid foot also doesn't give anything that saracen or nubian doesn't give and if you use them, there is no sense to use the others or the abyssinian guard or ghazi infantry all at the same time. They also appear at the same time and have around the same stats.

Mamluk, Ghulam and Armenian (easily gotten) Cavalry are too similar to each other. One or two of these need to be changed to be separated from the other two. I think Ghulam should be upped in cost and strength.

I know that CA wanted them to play differently than Catholic nations but right now, we don't have any choices in high tech units but have lots we don't need in low tech units. Also, they have less units to choose from, than even the Polish or Danish.

[This message has been edited by andrewt (edited 09-11-2002).]

[+DOC+]

I suppose this is to reflect the relative power transition from the muslim factions to the predominantly catholic European factions as the middle ages progresses. The muslim factions start off superior, but the more technologically proficient Europeans have the edge later on.

Otherwise, suffice to say that the Almohads, Turks and Egyptians might have actually managed to conquer catholic Europe.

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=MizuDoc Otomo=

[Lord of the Isles]

If CA added better units for the Egyptians then they'd get bombarded with requests to improve the other factions' economies to match Egypt's. That would only be fair. But Egypt would still be unbalanced because of its great corner position. So they'd have to redesign the map to even that up too.

The result? 12 factions all the same and a much less interesting game.

Egypt is already one of the best factions to choose. The only down side, to balance its advantages, is the poor quality of its troops. Leave that alone.

[DaCount]

Well regarding units, I for one would like to see a mod (perhaps i will even do myself) in which each faction has much less units, and where there are much more faction/country specific units. Then ofcourse mercenaries (i guess as they did in that time) will be much more popular. Anyway to do such a thing it will take quit a while to balance everything.

But i still love to see such a mod http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

[Jagger]

I have an almohad game going and have reached the 1300's. I am now officially outclassed by the europeans. I just had a thousand man, valor four army defeated by a high tech English army of 800 and valor 0. It was a tough fight but I just couldn't defeat the armor.

However I have tons of cash. I am now renting lots of mercenary heavy cavalry for my main armies. I am also building lots of arbelests. Hopefully the heavy mercenary cavalry and strong crossbows will balance out my poorly armored infantry.

It is going to be challenging.

[This message has been edited by Jagger (edited 09-11-2002).]

[hoof]

I haven't reached a late-tech period in my campaigns yet. But I'm curious about one detail. Don't most of the "high tech" units of the catholic powers have high armor values? How do late-war Egypt armies fare against late-war Catholic armies in the desert? Keep in mind that the real Muslim powers didn't fight much outside of the Med/Turkey area, historically (as far as Europe is concerned). Could our problem be that we're fighting in France/Germany with what could be considered a Desert army?

An analogy would be more modern times. In a jungle environment, heavy armor like the M1 Abrams tank would be severely handicapped (much like a late-tech catholic heavy calvalry unit fighting in North Africa). A lighter army could fight such a high-tech vehicle like the Abrams fairly well in the thick of the jungle. Not so in a more open terrain. Another example is how well such a tank would do in Afghanistan during the campaign against the Taliban? Probably not as good as the forces currently in place. My point is that the "high-tech" equipment of the late period Catholic factions are really effective in, say, France or Germany, but do very poorly in the desert. Even Napoleon found out the hard way about having the wrong troops/tech for a particular enviroment when he invaded Russia.

The dilemma as I see it is that we're putting these factions in situations that they didn't historically get into. Had the Egyptians marched into northern Europe over the period of 50-100 years during the 1300s, they probably would have developed units more capable of taking on the late-period Catholic factions. However, we can only speculate what those units might have been, thus it becomes risky to put them into a game like this. But without those units, the Egyptian's potential to take over Europe gets curtailed the later into the game you get. Thus the dilemma.

[hoof]

Oh, the way I got around the tech problem when dealing with high-tech uprisings (such as the Pope resurfacing in Rome) is with Arbalesters and Sacaren Infantry. The Sacaren Infantry form a wall (with +2/+3 defence they hold up well against almost anything), while the Arbalesters form the murder-squad. I've had battles where three 120-man strong Arbalester ground *each* scored 250+ kills. It's quite satisfying seeing 5-10 heavily armored late-war cavalry rebels dying each volley http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif Unfortunately at the time, only the Rebels and resurgant empires had the late-period tech, so I didn't get to test my tactics on a wide-scale.

[Kamui_Imagawa]

i'm shocked that you feel this way about the eygptians! The camels are a great variant. I agree that saracen and Muwahid infantry are very similiar but are more effective for different purposes even if its not vastly differentiated in their stats.

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The assassin of night is a dangerous foe, however, the assassin of day is most fear-inspiring and dangerous foe from life and battlefield alike.

[Ckrisz]

And don't underestimate swarms of Mamluk cavalry! They're cheap and they're good! Plus they have a good armor-piercing ratio.

Just remember, you can't really go toe-to-toe with knights. Lock them up with some fast-moving Muwahids, use Saracens for your pivot, and smash your Mamluks into them. Also use archers and arbalesters galore. High ground is even more crucial for lighter armies.

I like the difference between Muslim and European armies. The Europeans are heavier, yeah, but they're also much less maneuverable and MUCH more expensive.

[marlboro]

I know what you mean. I am playing Almo, and currently outclassed by the heavier troops coming out of Europe. However, as I have the right infrastructure, trade routes, and cash flow I can still hold my own with the heavier European troops.

My army usually consist of a mix between strong defensive milita, ghulam cavalry, and any mercenaries I can get my hand on. As I have the cash to spare, hiring mercenaries is not a big drain on my cash flow.

I now never go toe to toe with any European armies, as I will always get cut to pieces. The only time I will go toe to toe is when I use the mercenaries to hold down the enemy and I flank the army with my Almo troops.

I will always try to out flank, surprise or tire the enemy. Take a bit more time and effort, but then what is the fun in an easy game?

My best tactic is using the ?dual? threat approach. Present the enemy with two threats as see what happens.

[Enigma]

This is probably stupid, but in the files showing unit requirements are there restrictions against Muslim countries having Chivalric troops. From what I have seen on the files on unit stats there is no restriction against a Muslim nation from having Chivalric Sergeants etc. I have never played one of these factions and I admit I have not seen them in battle on the other side either. Do we need to fine-tune the unit stats files?

[andrewt]

There are restrictions. Also, it is currently useless for Egyptians to build the higher tech buildings. In fact, anything above workshop or guild is uselessin most cases. You don't even need anything above a swordsmith unless you want Hashishin. You only need them for select troops.

[This message has been edited by andrewt (edited 09-12-2002).]