Creative Assembly What should be patched?!? [Archive]

insolent1

09-07-2002, 23:00

I think the way the ai uses ships ie 5 or 6 in a zone but all split up as this takes up an awful lot of time to stop them blocking trade
AI on expert been better able to defend its best provinces so it can stop the woodsman, viking hordes late in the game & urban milita a lot of my generals are butchers now becuase i won't let them ransom back the crappy troops so I don't end up fighting them again I had one battle in sweden when the Novorgrond invaded with 6000+ woodsmen, pesants, vikings, urban milita aginst my chiv knights, halb's, billmen, passive arq's, swiss pike. I ended up with 4500+(the battles went on for 2+ hours) killz no prisoners & my General got the best vice I have seen "skilled last stand" I like that but now theres another 4000+ coming http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif
celt shimazu
I think the generals immortality should be left as its the only way to really build up their v&v's

theforce

09-07-2002, 23:02

Serious modifications to the engine should be nice but not likely to happen. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif

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I cannot return l presume so l will keep my name among those who are dead by bows!
http://www.dedicatedgaming.com/~angelsofdarkness

Bullethead

09-07-2002, 23:44

My list so far:
[list]
Keep generals from being so unkillable in melee.
In custom battles, allow each faction to have multiple armies instead of the limit of 1 army per faction.
In the map editor, have an option to superimpose a grid on the map.
Have filters on the strat map to hide each type of piece: fortifications, armies, ships, ports, and each type of agent.
On the strat map, change the default positions of units in provinces so your units are always shown in front of those of other factions, and so no units had behind fortifications, ports, etc. OR, when moving a unit into a province, have it stay where you dropped it instead of sliding to the huge pile in the center.

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-Bullethead

In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, in water there is bacteria

oZoNeLaYeR

09-08-2002, 01:31

Fix the damn crusade, going back and forth and taking my troop with them. > http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif damn!
and the ships as well... they just move around like ants... doh!

that's my rant anywayz http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

09-08-2002, 01:37

how about the %@$%$# rebellions in provinces with 3000+ garrison, 100% religion and 200% loyalty.

this game is giving me nightmares. i hate hiting the end turn button since right before it gives you all hte updates on building being complete and floods and the like it does the "rebellion check." i get all tense and i know i'm going to hear yelling and boom rebellion all over.

grrrrrr

JRock

09-08-2002, 02:04

Sometimes the generals die TOO easily. Which means that in reality how hard to kill the general is is really quite balanced.

Anyway, aside from the crashing and other multiplayer errors in the game's GameSpy multiplayer, and the multiplayer replay bug, and the Takes Too Long To LogOut annoyance, there are these:

*Campaign: Allow player to see make-up of invading army during pop-up which mandates choosing attack or retreat.

*Multiplayer AND Custom Battle: Allow all players to choose any faction in multiplayer instead of each being stuck playing one. If everyone wants to be English, so be it - they should be able to, instead of first-join getting best pic of the factions.

Which would also be cool if in a 2 vs 2, 3 vs 3, or 4 vs 4, each side could all be the same faction for uniformity.

Keep the player colors so they can determine which troops are theirs, just don't tie faction to color, or somehow make it possible to separate the faction from which you choose units from the color you are.

*Multiplayer/Custom Game: Remove restriction of 99,999 florin. This is really silly - why bother restricting? What if people want to have a battle with 16 maxed out units of heavy cavalry? Why do you prevent this? It's all about fun and enjoyment and people should be allowed at least the option to do so.

Yes, most of us play with a 5k-10k florin available per player, but just for the sake of having the option to do so.... please?

[This message has been edited by JRock (edited 09-07-2002).]

09-08-2002, 02:09

why should generals be hard to kill in the first place?

i think all the stories we hear about richard III or someone charging into battle are made up for propoganda purposes. the risk outweighs the reward.

anyway how the hell can you command your armies if your fighting at the time? also typically generals are older, thus frail.

Moorkh

09-08-2002, 03:00

- Fix the campaign map: there are lots of geographical glitches, like Switzerland not connecting to Milan etc.

- Allow bribing of all types of agents

- loading/saving without going back to the main menu.

- factions should be able to pay off the papacy to avoid or end excommunication

- inquisitions of generals shouldn't happen instantly, taking more than one turn, allowing the player to move in a bishop to bail your rank-8 general out

- AI should be improved for diplomacy. it makes little sense for my puny neighbour to declare war on me if it's obvious that I'll just cush him within two turns.

- successions should more often lead to civil wars and claims to the throne by foreign factions.

- members of the royal family should be subject to bribes also.

- assassinations should generally be made easier, especially against members of the royalty, unless those are protected by enough counterspies.

Oh, and once we're at it let's ask for stuff in the upcoming expansion pack:

- random map generators for both campaign and battle maps

- campaign map editor

- more complex diplomacy options: alliance, ceasefire and war are a bit limited options. feudalism offers such great diplomatic possibilites along with dynasty building, tributes, claims, vassals, simony, etc.

- more ruling options, especially considering the characteristics of different factions and provinces: whoever conrols Rome, for example, should be able to assing one of his generals as pope and then have the option of excommunicating other catholic factions.

- more agents. heretics would especially be nice to subvert enemy generals and provinces, preparing them for a visit by your inquisitor

[This message has been edited by Moorkh (edited 09-07-2002).]

JRock

09-08-2002, 03:12

Quote Originally posted by Moorkh:

- loading/saving without going back to the main menu.
[/QUOTE]

CTRL+S and CTRL+L my friend: Quick Save and Quick Load. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

Moorkh

09-08-2002, 03:53

Thanks, pal - I never tried that. Still, there shouldn't be a loading time to show the menu and then again to return to the game http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

JRock

09-08-2002, 05:09

Oh and how could I forget:

All us to directly connect to an IP address to play a game.

Such a basic feature, yet missing from MTW.

Would help a lot instead of dealing with the stupid Gamespy code that doesn't always update the server list right and some games never appearing on the list and all that crap.

[This message has been edited by JRock (edited 09-07-2002).]

GilJaysmith

09-08-2002, 07:03

Quote Originally posted by macajor:
maybe when u select ur gen and say put it on valour 1 and an upgrade, all the others should not come up the same as the last unit choosen.
[/QUOTE]

Right-click on any other unit in the upper strip, and the valour/weapon/armour values will reset to the defaults. You can then change these defaults and they'll be picked up for all new units.

Quote Originally posted by JRock:

Anyway, aside from the crashing and other multiplayer errors in the game's GameSpy multiplayer, and the multiplayer replay bug, and the Takes Too Long To LogOut annoyance...
[/QUOTE]

Menu speed improved, name selection always popping back to 'Room' fixed, player in-game/out of game status fixed.

Replay bugs fixed.

Logging out: I'll add a "Logging Out" popup to ease the pain, and will try to figure out why it takes soo loooong...

Quote Originally posted by JRock:

Multiplayer AND Custom Battle: Allow all players to choose any faction in multiplayer instead of each being stuck playing one. If everyone wants to be English, so be it - they should be able to, instead of first-join getting best pic of the factions.
[/QUOTE]

Approaches being studied right now.

Quote Originally posted by JRock:

Multiplayer/Custom Game: Remove restriction of 99,999 florin.
[/QUOTE]

Might do this, harmless enough I suppose.

Quote Originally posted by JRock:

All us to directly connect to an IP address to play a game.
[/QUOTE]

This isn't going to happen and I'll tell you why.

So far I've only heard of isolated problems with GameSpy - aside from the problems to do with our interface, of which there are several, many to be fixed in the patch. Many other of those problems turn out to be to do with firewalls or suchlike.

In other words, there seem to be no big problems with GameSpy at the moment. I'm discounting the "problems" some people have with GameSpy as a concept... if you've heard anyone calling it 'GaySpy' or 'LameSpy' then you'll know what I mean.

I don't see a compelling reason for us to devote any amount of time which could be spent enhancing everyone's fun to adding a feature which will only be used by a handful of people - who, as I see it, don't actually need it.

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Gil ~ CA

quote:
MagyarKhans Cham:
jeeez what brilliant mind programmed that?

JRock

09-08-2002, 07:20

Thanks for at least working on the rest of the issues, even if IP connecting is out of the question.

I guess it's just something some of us gamers have come to expect in multiplayer games and we enjoy using to find a game with a few friends without all the trouble of logging into/out of gamespy and all that other garbage.

It's really not something you guys can patch in anyway, because you'd have to have put the CD Key check in front of the entire Multiplayer Tab instead of during the GameSpy login.

Now about the most frustrating bug of all the - the dropping/crashing to desktop upon clicking Join Game, Create Game, and Log Out... ?

[This message has been edited by JRock (edited 09-08-2002).]

MJDore

09-08-2002, 07:32

It's really good that the programmers post here and answer our questions.. it really feels as if u were part of the team/community. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

MagyarKhans Cham

09-08-2002, 07:46

agreed. the devs were an endangeroud specie once but now they seems to flood the forums ... perhaps teh games retinue allows them http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

JRock

09-09-2002, 19:35

Quote Originally posted by GilJaysmith:
This isn't going to happen and I'll tell you why.

So far I've only heard of isolated problems with GameSpy
[/QUOTE]

You know, Gil, I was just thinking about what you said about "we're not doing IP connection ability", and just for future reference, if GameSpy ever closes its doors, this game is effectively DEAD when it comes to multiplayer. You really shouldn't make your game so utterly dependent on a foreign source for access to multiplayer games.

DaCount

09-09-2002, 20:58

If possible at all....

Please please for us playing the game with it's own euh 'achievements' could you add the following feature:
Give us the possibility to 'buy' goodwill from the ai, with:
A) Money
B) Territory
C) Units
Ofcourse i don't mind if the AI backstabs (though then he will die ofcourse) me with it's new gift packed army i gave him. But please include the option as a way to help out collapsing AI's http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif, or a way to buy peace...

ShadeHonestus

09-09-2002, 21:08

I don't know if anyone else thinks this is a problem or has experienced it. But I always end up with a large number of former heirs who are extremely good generals. However, the problem comes to be that they are with a Royal Knight Unit that was manufactured in the Early or High Period.
Unfortunately, it seems like I cannot "refit" this unit. I can refit other Royal Knight units of the same period, but not once my production has reached a new level.

Would it be possible to allow this "upgrade and refit" for the Royal Knights and Ghulam Bodyguards? Or is this a slow way of killing off those early heirs.. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

hach

09-09-2002, 21:16

I want MP to be stable.
I sometimes get crashed back to Desktop or a message saying i cannot join a game.

I also think artillery is far too weak against Units.
I don't mind the inaccuracy as it improves and seems realistic'but even direct hits against Units seem to kill very little.

hach

09-09-2002, 21:45

Don't know about Generals'but Kings are Far too hard to kill and can be surrounded by Spearmen and still Kill many many spearmen'then get down to 1 Guy(The King) and retreat and survive.

noodle

09-09-2002, 21:51

Just one more (yes I've said it before)

Ability to set different difficulty levels for the campaign and battle parts of the game - eg Campaign level set to medium, all battles set to expert.

JRock

09-09-2002, 23:07

Here's a simple one:

Have the Game Options settings for singleplayer and multiplayer be differentiated, so my Unlimited Ammo for Custom Battle doesn't carry over to when I host a multiplayer game.

Maybe add the Unlimited Ammo and Restrict Camera check boxes to the multiplayer Host Game setup screen so we can set them there separately from the ones we use in singleplayer campaign and custom battle.

Thanks.

ElmarkOFear

09-09-2002, 23:21

Oh Gil, in case the guys forgot to say it and so you know that we are not just complaining . . thanks again for your input and letting us know where everything stands. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

ElmarkOFear

09-09-2002, 23:23

Kocmoc I am a bit confused by the values you set for your example for unit A and unit B.
7 7 5 10? What values are these? I know of only three that you can set in multiplay . . .valour, weapon upgrade and armor upgrade. Am I missing something?

Inferno

09-09-2002, 23:25

I am not sure how feasible this is with the current architecture, but, I would really like to see an improvement to the diplomacy side of the game.

I think that allies should be able to:

1) Ask their ally to move troops to a province at a certain date to perform a joint attack. This should probably include the minimum and maximum number of troops they want you to move.

2) Ask their ally to garrision one of their provinces. (This of course requires the game to allow allied units to stay peacefully in a province they don't own without starting a war.)

3) Send and receive florins from their ally.

Like I said, these may be impossible with the current architecture, but they would drastically omprove the game IMHO, not that it isn't already excellent! :-)

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It's getting warm in here...that must be one hell of an INFERNO!

tootee

09-09-2002, 23:31

Quote Originally posted by ElmarkOFear:
Kocmoc I am a bit confused by the values you set for your example for unit A and unit B.
7 7 5 10? What values are these? I know of only three that you can set in multiplay . . .valour, weapon upgrade and armor upgrade. Am I missing something? [/QUOTE]

Koc referring to Melee Defend Armour Morale rating. A fair comparison is at equal morale and compare net melee+defend / cost which should be a good gauge of a unit combat strength per florin. Net effect with shield in defend bonus should be used as most of encounters are frontal.

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tootee the goldfish,
headmaster of Shogun-Academy (http://shogun-academy.tripod.com)
loyal roach of Clan S.G. (http://thesilvergazwa.tripod.com)
'Pa Si Buay Chao! Si Liao Ka Song!'
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tootee

09-09-2002, 23:38

The above example may not be very clear, e.g. maybe unit A, although more expensive and net combat strength is -1 w.r.t to B, it maybe be armour-piercing unit, or move faster, or bonus vs cav, etc.

Given that many choices for infantry and cav(many a close replicate of another when upgraded to almost same morale), MP gamers may find certain favourites that best suit online battles (because its cheaper in the sense I stated above). However rebalances these units may spoilt the game for SP gamers.

------------------
tootee the goldfish,
headmaster of Shogun-Academy (http://shogun-academy.tripod.com)
loyal roach of Clan S.G. (http://thesilvergazwa.tripod.com)
'Pa Si Buay Chao! Si Liao Ka Song!'
------------------

Soapyfrog

09-10-2002, 00:09

I want a multiplayer campaign option!!!

http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif

Or something!!

The ability to field understrength units in multiplay would be nice, or to pick V&Vs for your generals in multiplay, that would be neat!

e.g. You take the Coward Vice you get extra florins (or your troops are cheaper, frex. Take the Excellent attacker virtue and you pay more...

Oh!! Reserves in Multiplayer!! Should be allowed!!!

i.e. I should be able to buy more than 16 units.

What else? Multiplayer Campaign!!! Or at LEAST Multiplayer Historical Campaigns.

[This message has been edited by Soapyfrog (edited 09-09-2002).]

JRock

09-10-2002, 01:05

Quote Originally posted by Soapyfrog:
pick V&Vs for your generals in multiplay, that would be neat!

e.g. You take the Coward Vice you get extra florins (or your troops are cheaper, frex. Take the Excellent attacker virtue and you pay more...

Oh!! Reserves in Multiplayer!! Should be allowed!!!

i.e. I should be able to buy more than 16 units.

What else? Multiplayer Campaign!!! Or at LEAST Multiplayer Historical Campaigns.

[/QUOTE]

I'd just like to be the first to say I find all of those suggestions to be horrid, and none of them are things that need to be patched, they are only requests more suited for an add-on or another game entirely.

What should be patched? All the things that are broken or unbalanced, or that are hurting our ability to play the game.

Soapyfrog

09-10-2002, 02:05

Well SORRY!

In that case, the various CTDs that have been reported should be found and fixed.

Happy?

In any case, I much prefer patches that add new functionality AS WELL as fixing problems that OBVIOUSLY need fixing.

Kocmoc

09-10-2002, 02:38

routing units http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif

we all know the prob if ur ally rout, so u move away than u dont get infected too.
but with this in-all-direction-routning its impossible

on the one hand its a nice idea, but on the other u lose control if ur enemy routs and this means too, that u cant beat 2 armys at once!
something i loved in stw, u could beat 2 armys....now u wont have enougth units to chase them down and ifu chase down 1 enemy ur units will be too tired to come back in time or even beat the other enemy....

i dont know if there will be a better solution i just want to write my thougths.

fatique is a prob wich can be solved easy, the units get tired a bit to fast, i noticed that they refresh fadt as well but this wont help u in battle.

some units get "bonusses" vs units, well can someone list this bonussesplz...
there is just a little * or something so u know ....but what is the exact bonuss

hotkeys, with so many units this hotkeys are not enought, or at least, why not put them just on number? ...its hardcore to select ctrl+0 http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

what i love:
-the whole gamespeed, its very good exact what we need
-the balance is all together good, some little changes but not such diff like mi
-the maps looks very good
-all this units and antiunits are well done
-if someone drop he routs, thats good
-u see how ur allys deploy!!!!

koc

TosaInu

09-10-2002, 06:57

-if someone drop he routs, thats good

This is the worst thing since Benny Hill.

tootee

09-10-2002, 08:07

Quote Originally posted by Kocmoc:
routing units http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif
we all know the prob if ur ally rout, so u move away than u dont get infected too.
but with this in-all-direction-routning its impossible
on the one hand its a nice idea, but on the other u lose control if ur enemy routs and this means too, that u cant beat 2 armys at once![/QUOTE]

As someone has pointed out, History doesn't get in the way; history points the way. Realistically, a broken unit doesnt rout in the general direction from where they come, they just wanna run away from the enemy to safety. CA mentioned about this previously I believe, the reason for the rout-in-all-direction thing. And it adds new dimension to the game compared to STW because now the initial victor has to think twice about giving chase, as this will mean dispersing his army in various direction, making them vulnerable to rallied routed enemies, and a chance for the routed to make a stand again. If everything is as per STW, I dont find it new and interesting. As for the allies routing through one's enemy, that is a problem he has to handle, not patched. If I'm gonna run away, I definitely will run to my closest friendlies and yell "get out of my way! cover me while i'm going back to my wives!"

Quote
fatique is a prob wich can be solved easy, the units get tired a bit to fast, i noticed that they refresh fadt as well but this wont help u in battle.[/QUOTE]
I agree. Men seems to get fatique too fast for the game to be more enjoyable (i've enjoyed every moment nevertheless). Whether that is a question of gameplay or realism has to be decided by CA.

Quote
hotkeys, with so many units this hotkeys are not enought, or at least, why not put them just on number? ...its hardcore to select ctrl+0 http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
[/QUOTE]
ah! this i agree! simple 0 will be great. Wish I can configure this.

Quote
what i love:
-if someone drop he routs, thats good
[/QUOTE]
why?
Quote
-u see how ur allys deploy!!!!
[/QUOTE]
yes its nice.

------------------
tootee the goldfish,
headmaster of Shogun-Academy (http://shogun-academy.tripod.com)
loyal roach of Clan S.G. (http://thesilvergazwa.tripod.com)
'Pa Si Buay Chao! Si Liao Ka Song!'
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[This message has been edited by tootee (edited 09-10-2002).]

[This message has been edited by tootee (edited 09-10-2002).]

Kraxis

09-10-2002, 08:08

Fix Crusades...

Both the walking around thing, AND Crusades launched against ilegitimate targets, like non-excommunicated catholics. That is a serious bug!

Fix V&V's that are in conflict, Coward and Utterly Fearless, or Atheist and Devout.
Seems a little stupid, but this is mostly cosmetic. For me it is at least.

Tone down the AUM, a unit of 60 of them walked all over a unit of Templars (40) while another hit it in the flanks on an incline. These were 7/7/7.5 guys. They should not fall to Militia, not even Almohads. And it was not because I used my Templars wrong, because later in the battle a unit of Royal Knights were chrushed as well.
They have a far too small upkeep.

Fix sieges.
An army that goes into a castle after losing a battle will last as long as it would have if it went in directly. That is odd as a defeated army is much smaller.

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You may not care about war, but war cares about you!

[This message has been edited by Kraxis (edited 09-10-2002).]

Kraxis

09-10-2002, 08:11

Oh, forgot...

Give us battles in the castlemap when we have sallying forces or when forces come in to break the siege. It is too easy to defend right now.

Murmandamus

09-10-2002, 08:28

Ability to specify which unit I want to be the general of an army. iirc in Shogun the general was determined by the order units were added to the army. In MTW it seems to be just selecting the one it thinks is best no matter what order they are added.

Need some categories for the v&v's. Some like glutony, secret heretic can be assigned at random but others like cowardice/weak due to being captured and ransomed should only be assigned after such an event has actually happened.

dancho

09-10-2002, 09:07

Change the Turkish picture that shows up while playing an English Campaign...

Lord Romulous

09-10-2002, 10:14

Change the way castle sieges are handled. see seperate thread. (dont know how to link)

key tweak would be making the besieging army suffer higher casulties than the besieged. and the besieging army should have higer upkeep costs to reflect how hard it was to keep a army in the field surounding a enemy castle.

one thing i really dont like is how u lose ur upgrades when u get besieged. especially those that have taken 4-5 years to build.
some may think it is good but for me it makes retreating to a castles pointless. especialy early in the game.

[This message has been edited by Lord Romulous (edited 09-10-2002).]

pdoan8

09-10-2002, 10:19

Possible bug:

1. Cancel a retrain in a already full castle (or whatever the level is) will cause the unit to be disbanded. Don't know if any one else had this problem.

Improvement I want to see:

1. Royal units of earlier period should be upgradable/retrainable.

2. Allow the AI to request help from allies (including player) to lift the siege.

3. Allow player to join the ally in a battle. This will not be perfectly timing. I remember that in STW, we have the option to delay the attack a few day (if the weather is bad). This could be implemented so that we can delay the attack for a limited time to wait for the ally force to arrive. Or we may choose to attack before the arrival of the ally. In this case, the ally forece may arrive any time during the duration of the battle.

4. V&V and Character developing:
General should not have V&V that don't go together. Instead, V&V should be made so that they can be gained or lost. A few examples such as:
- "Doubful courage", "Good runner" should be gone after a few wins.
- "Utterly fearless" should be gone if he is captured and ransomed back.
- "Eager to retreat" should not be gained after just one retreat.
- "Weak last stand" should be gone if he managed to beat an army larger than his.
- He should gain "Brave beyond belief" only if he lead the battle and kill more enemy than any one else. Or he may get some " Impressive scars"

General could gain some V&V that are related to the ones he currently has. Or he may lose some current V&V and pickup other V&V in the opposite direction.

5.Siege: make it worth to retreat into the castle or assault the castle. Defending, large army starve too quick but small army don't get assaulted. I have seen a few times an army of nearly 2000 strong (most of the times are rebels) seiges a fortress defending by 20 royal knights for 10 years long and the knights are still partying possibly for another 10 years. The siege army should only have a certain number of years to end the siege (depending on the level of developement in that province, higher/ richer = more resources/supply for the siege army). Otherwise, they must retreat in defeat after they ran out of supply. Siege can only be sustained if army is swaped/reinforced/resupply frequently or the seige army must pillage the province for supply.

That's all I have experienced so far.

[This message has been edited by pdoan8 (edited 09-10-2002).]

JRock

09-10-2002, 11:06

Also this:
http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/Forum5/HTML/000609.html

Make it so we can edit the player/faction start spots on user-created maps.

andrewt

09-10-2002, 12:00

Some of my governors get bad vices like artistic, too charitable, smuggler, etc. too easily. Sometimes, they would develop the worst ones around 5-10 after I made them governor. It's too much. More control over it would be nice.

Also, heir stats shouldn't be too random. I get crap usually as the English and the Egyptians. In the game I was playing, the Byzantines teched hard to get armor upgrades and got around 6-8 command rating heirs with good virtues like mighty warrior and legendary leader and other good stats too. The armor upgrade in addition made them too hard to kill. They had one for almost every province they have and I had a trouble even with superior troops and a 6-star general since non-Catholics don't have good cavalry killers, only good defenders. In contrast, all I get is crap with the total rating (loyalty+piety+dread+command+acumen) usually just around 10-15.

Kocmoc

09-10-2002, 13:34

if the droped player rout i noticed that u dont get infected, his units just move the fastes way away.

imo its better to play alone vs the enemy as has a droped inaktiv army nearby, with this routing the enmy just attack this droped player and make him easy rout in ur direction and u will rout too!
so if he dont rout, u have to protekt the other army to save ur army, this is stupid, ofcourse the ally shooters could help u and some units could stay and fight a bit, but all together its better this army isnt on the battlefield.

to the all direction routing, look
ur units fight till the enemy rout, than they try to chase them down and run behind!
so what happend? ur army get splitt of if there is 1 mroe enemy u have lost, just becouse ur amy is slitted of the whole field!

what can u do? easy dont chase them down!
maybe send some horses behind, but guys...LOL
u havnt enougth horses to chase a full army dont that he cant rally!!!

this means: u have to take back ur infantry units, regroop them and pray that ur horses kill the most of the routing guy.
meanwhile u have to regroop and face the other oponnent wich is still quite fresh.
+ the routing guy, wich rout some units ofcourse behind the other enemy....so they can rally.
imo u cant chase the whole routing guy down, so he can rally atleast 50% of his routing units, so if u was good its about 30% of his whole army wich means u killed 40% of his army! so u have 1 more prob! mostly he move his shooters away, so this untis dont go into a melee, so mostly this untis can rally and u face 1 full and 1 1/3 guy wich has maybe 70% of his shooters left!

i said this in my first post, yes its historical the best way, but we need other controllmechanism or something should be changed, example if ur units routed the enemy
its a near impossible thing to select just the chasing units and regroop the other wich do nothing, u can use ur hotkeys, coz some fighting some not, this means Give us more hotkeys or any other solution, like a ctrl+key for selecting all nonfighting h2h untis....

ofcourse i speak just about multi games where more than 2 guys are playing, in a 1v1 its easy to beat the enemy and u dont have to fear 1 more guy, but in 1v2 or 2v2 ..... u will be in big troubel....

i hope this explains it a bit more

...sorry for my english

koc

TosaInu

09-10-2002, 14:38

Konnichiwa,

A dropped ally in a STW 2v2 was nasty as it decreased the manoeuvre options. A dropped and routed ally in MTW is worse because you're facing a 2v1.

A dropped army in STW (considered it's well deployed) is quite mean: no units move -> less fatigue, units stay together -> good morale.

I'll not claim that I'm a skilled player, but the AI in STW almost never gave me a challenge. I've made 'historical' battles that were almost impossible to win. Guess when I won them? When I did nothing/acted like a dropped army.

When an army drops in a teamgame, one of the enemy teammembers could fight the dropped army (even if it was known that he was dropped, call it courteousy). If you want to be courteous in MTW 1 of the enemy teammembers should stay out as well: game is ruined for 2 instead of for 1.

Lightcavalry is intended for chasing, but they fatigue too fast to handle chasing units very well, especially since units run in all directions (which is good). A fatigue slider (instead of just on/off) would be nice.

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Ja mata
Toda MizuTosaInu

Surgeon

09-10-2002, 15:13

I think one thing that really needs to be put in is the ability to automate your specia units in some ways.

Like Assassin kill all german emissaries that enter current province. Stuff like that.

Being able to stack special units would be nice to.

Sorry if this has been said a million times before but as a normal gamer with limited ime I find the micromanagemnet time investment too great to be able to play this game much.

Arkatreides

09-10-2002, 15:35

Patch this please : http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/Forum7/HTML/001355.html

before I get carpal tunnel!!! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

tootee

09-10-2002, 15:39

Kocmoc,

when you talk about having to quickly finish off your opponent in order to face your other enemy, thats why u think the all-direction rout is bad.. so your arguement is that you are in fact having a 1v2 situation? or your ally is too inept to at least hold the enemy? and in the latter case, the other enemy will also be facing your dilemma.. to chase or not to chase and reorg. i dont see a problem here with all-direction rout.

Probably more hotkeys (or more control over deciding what hotkeys to use for groupings) is the way to go in order to better control the units, i.e. quickly select chasing units to stop the chase etc..

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tootee the goldfish,
headmaster of Shogun-Academy (http://shogun-academy.tripod.com)
loyal roach of Clan S.G. (http://thesilvergazwa.tripod.com)
'Pa Si Buay Chao! Si Liao Ka Song!'
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MagyarKhans Cham

09-10-2002, 16:45

units fatique just a bit too fast down, esp horses. a few short runs and they are exhausted.

unist should disperse to all sides, its realistic and u have to made several quick decisions which to pursuit and which units u must keep for the ongoing battle.

a dropped players should be inactive instead of running away. or... if possible, leave the field and appear as your reinforcements! that should be programmable.

Kocmoc

09-10-2002, 17:13

i didnt said, that this all direktion rout is the big prob, but its cause other probs wich should be possible to solve.

like i said in upper post, ur h2h units try to chase the enemy down automaticaly, but if i have 8 or more h2h units some chase some not, i cant regroop them in a good time!

its hard to see a difference between some untis so its near impossible to decide by a fast look!
u need to act about the unitsymbols, this means : doppleclick on the unit--zoom to unit---watch what this unit is doin-----than decide what this unit have to do.
if u wanna do it with every single unit u need too long!

so plz tell me what u guys do now?
i can tell u what i do: i call ALL h2h units back and just let my horses chase down.
but this means i do many mistakes!

i dont say change the routingsystem!
i just say give us some better controlloptions so we can react faster!

soon we will have more guys wich better skill, than the luckpercentage will raise with the current system.

....i noticed that if u chage the enemy u have big probs to control it at all, so many colours wich looks near same, so many units wich looks same....isnt my intention to change it, i just think it should be easy to gie us some more options to controll it better.

like i said bigger flags, or some of u can easy see the valour of enemy units?
...im not!
some colours, like green or orange u see it easy but some other faction u see it to late!

or the blinking general, i never search on the minimap for the general and why all units can hide in woods, just not ur general?!?
so if its wanted that u can easy find the enemy general this "bigger" flag of this unit is still to small.

i said it in otehr post already, i realy like it, its pretty good and i dont think there are so many thing to patched,
we just need a better overview, so u can decide fast and u can be sure with ur decision!
at moment i lose sometimes control, especialy in 2v2 or 3v3.

koc

TosaInu

09-10-2002, 19:02

Konnichiwa,

The following is my experience/feeling with cavalry.

STW had quite slow cavalry, you didn't really had to use/need them. Infantry only was fine. The worst of all was (my opinion) the heavy cav: slow, tires fast, not outstanding powerful, and no splendid morale.

There are different roles for cavalry, one of them (the most important in my view) is chasing and backstabbing.

STW WE/MI 1.02 has made cavalry faster, together with some other changes (the other great difference between cav and infantry is that the mounted warrior and horse are much heavier and faster -> more momentum -> more charge). This not only is more realistic but also promotes the usage of cavalry that they are for: move (static cav can be killed by infantry, moving cav kills most infantrytypes).

1.02 had some problems, most important was that cavalry ruled the field together with spears and guns (once an army routed cavalry finished it off). Related to infantry, cavalry still moved slower than reals ones would do.

1.03 offers basically the same cavalry, with the exception that the mobile powers have been increased and the static decreased (surgical precision is even more important). Most infantry has been made tougher and many also have more morale. Cavalry is still the best unit to chase and backstab, but they do not dominate like 1.02 ones. This and the slight shift of melee to defense makes 1.03 games last longer than 1.02 ones.

STW infantry game.
STW WE/MI cavalry game (infantry spears and guns)
STW 1.03 Infantry/cavalry/missiles.

MTW has a nice routing system. Cavalry is (speedwise) identical like STW WE/MI cavalry, but it feels different. I think it's good that they don't rule the field like 1.02 cavalry, but MTW feels like a infantry game: cavalry fails to chase effectively. That is of course because units rout in all directions, cav in STW 'only' had to move from A to B, MTW cavalry has to move from A to B to C to A to D...

If infantry acts more realistic (by routing in all directions) then so should cavalry (routing in all directions has an obvious advantage -> an increased chance to rally at least some units).

When I see cavalry running I don't think those are horses (all TW titles and versions), in STW MI 1.02 and more in 1.03 it did work though, because other things were 'simplified' too.

There are two ways (or a combination of those) to give cavalry their use:
-increase their condition (decrease their fatigue) so that they can run for a longer time.
-increase their speed. Tests showed that it is the travel time and not the speed (using run only) that determines the fatigue rate.

A higher speed will make it harder for many players to control, and changing the speed is easy enough for anyone to do him/her self. I've increased all horse/camel speeds by 30%, I feel happy with those in the SP campaign and custom battles I play.

Decreasing the fatigue is something only CA can change,I feel it's necessary, especially for cavalry. The nicest thing would be a fatigue slider when building the gameserver/host: 0n, 75%, 50%, 25%, off.

This would not change balance.

The second thing would indeed be the option to set the gamespeed. Increased speed of cavalry makes more distinct classes but also make units harder to control (trying to achieve the same results by lowering inf speed results in fast fatigue of inf since fatigue is travel time dependend).

Apart from that the current speed is already too fast for some people (do realise that many different people play this game: male/female, 13-60 years.... Even a 'teenage' game like UT offers gamespeeds from 10-200%).
I feel that 3 speeds would be enough for MTW: 50%, 75% and 100%.

I'ld (this does not mean that other things are irrelevant) ask for these battlefixes:

Building host
1. Speedslider: 50%, 75% and 100%.
2. Fatigueslider: 0n, 75%, 50%, 25%, off.

3. Dropped armies don't rout.

4a. Hotswap crusaders_unit_prod11.txt.
4b. Hotswap projectiles.txt.

Preferably even the option to have many different stats in a folder and select one like one selects a map (add-on?).

5. And option to give mobile siegeequipment (like culverin and catapult) a walkspeed in Projectiles.txt. Sieges are hard enough, all static equipment make it even harder.

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Ja mata
Toda MizuTosaInu

Puzz3D

09-10-2002, 19:15

I tend to like a dropped player's army withdrawing so that a player on the other team can withdraw, and you then have a clean battle. A 4v4 becomes a 3v3, a 3v3 becomes a 2v2 and a 2v2 becomes a 1v1. I've taken advantage of this in several games to salvage the game for the rest of the players, and they were able to continue with a normal game without me. To me, hiding inside a dropped player's army in Shogun was a waste of time because it's an artificial situation, although, I have seen players pretend to be dropped. Also, all players in the MTW game immediately know when a player has dropped, and they can decide right away to play on or restart the game.

The dropped player's army can rout or withdraw as long as it does not impart a morale penalty on the allies. If I manually rout a unit in Shogun that does not impart a morale penalty to the rest of my units. If that's the way it's working in MTW, then it seems ok to me. Otherwise, the army could simply withdraw.

Lethal DRB

09-10-2002, 19:25

The only thing I really h8 is the log on and log off!
PoooooooooooooooH!

{^_^} DRB {^_^}

MagyarKhans Cham

09-10-2002, 20:29

for now our Khan is in favour of tosas option sliders but if they cant be done a second best thing is making horses n=ot to tire that fast down. a few chases and even the lightest cav is limping of exthaustion. twm is clear an infantry game but luckily horses are still needed or at lowest are usefull.

also agree with Orlok Koc, the little unitflags are ok. u must be close to teh enemy to see what power a unit really has, and it gives a bit more value to scouting horses. the big unitflages could be bigger. somehow in games, cuz units rout to all sides, its darn hard to find the right unit and even if u found one u could keep misclicking on teh banner.

although a messy h2h round is also realistic. ofcourse the better players like to control teh doing of each unit, a little mess adds some tension and something random that in all real battles occures. (little chaos theory)

JRock

09-10-2002, 20:42

I forget if I mentioned this on page 1, but they really need to add separate options in the Create Game screen for multiplayer for Unlimited Ammo and Restrict Camera, so the host's singleplayer settings for those options aren't automatically used as they are now. I personally play my singleplayer campaign with Free Camera and Unlimited Ammo but I play multiplayer like the rest of you with camera restricted and limited ammo but in order to have a game I host set up that way, I'd have to exit all the way out to the game's main menu, go to Game Options, and change my preferences there.

Very unergonomic and time-wasting.

tootee

09-11-2002, 09:52

Quote Originally posted by MagyarKhans Cham:
the big unitflages could be bigger. somehow in games, cuz units rout to all sides, its darn hard to find the right unit and even if u found one u could keep misclicking on teh banner.

although a messy h2h round is also realistic. ofcourse the better players like to control teh doing of each unit, a little mess adds some tension and something random that in all real battles occures. (little chaos theory)[/QUOTE]
Totally agree, a messy h2h is realistic and fun. Its like you're the field commander trying to yell at the unit commander to stop chasing the routed enemy but in all the chaos either he had difficulty hearing you, or u have difficulty find him (simulated by the difficulty to select that particular unit litertally).

For me selecting an individual unit has no problem, just left_click on the unit on the ground . But the problem I have is to select the group that unit belongs to. I have to remember which grouped icon this unit belongs, whereas in STW i just need to ctrl+left_click on the unit on the ground (not at the icon) to select the group. And I have problem with clicking on the MTW small group bar. So what I do now in the heat of thing (where I cant recall which icon this unit is) is to ctrl_right_click on the unit on the ground, which will select the group it belongs but there will be a popup menu, which I cancel by right_click once anywhere. So thats a two-click movement compared to STW one. Maybe the rest can share how they overcome this difficulty?

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tootee the goldfish,
headmaster of Shogun-Academy (http://shogun-academy.tripod.com)
loyal roach of Clan S.G. (http://thesilvergazwa.tripod.com)
'Pa Si Buay Chao! Si Liao Ka Song!'
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Kraxis

09-11-2002, 21:54

One more thing from my wishlist...

Crusades for all Catholics!!! Danes in particular!!! Se my thread about my reasons.

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You may not care about war, but war cares about you!

Orda Khan

09-11-2002, 22:38

Units routing in all directions more realistic. Really?
If I had just marched from relative safety to the battlefield I think I'd run back to relative safety!
Ok units running away from attackers fair enough but they should then attempt to get back home.
Also cavalry tiring as fast as they do is not realistic. Mongol cavalry was renowned for its speed and mobility, heavy cavalry charges were feared by most infantry. Slowing cav so they can be chased down by infantry is poor, horses can perform greater feats for longer than infantry. Why should cav tire by doing the very work they were employed for? What about fresh remounts? As many as 3 or 4 per rider with the Mongol armies. Light cav becoming fatigued by chasing down fleeing infantry is plain useless. Let's not forget the part that cavalry played in mediaeval warfare

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" Send us your ambassadors and thus we shall judge whether you wish to be at peace with us or at war..if you make war on us the Everlasting God, who makes easy what was difficult and makes near what was far, knows that we know what our power is."

Puzz3D

09-11-2002, 23:14

OrdaKhan,

Routed units do turn and head for home if they get away from the enemy chasing them and they are not too close to the edge of the map. If near the edge, they seem to flee off that edge.

Couldn't the host have some intermediate fatigue option like 75%, 50%, 25% instead of only the present on/off.

Do we really need attack and defend combat stats increased by a valor upgrade? The units are supposed to be balanced as they are at Valor 0. Couldn't valor upgrades simply raise morale? You would probably want to make the valor upgrade cost less than 50% if it only boosted morale, but you wouldn't want it dirt cheap either which would result in everyone simply maxing it out on all their units.

tootee

09-12-2002, 00:15

Quote Originally posted by Puzz3D:

Do we really need attack and defend combat stats increased by a valor upgrade? The units are supposed to be balanced as they are at Valor 0. Couldn't valor upgrades simply raise morale? You would probably want to make the valor upgrade cost less than 50% if it only boosted morale, but you wouldn't want it dirt cheap either which would result in everyone simply maxing it out on all their units.[/QUOTE]

In the game, valor is used to reflect how season or well-trained the unit is. Thus a higher valor unit should have its combat stat increased to reflect this. Simply improving just the morale, which may make MP troops more configurable thus avoidable some of the balancing issues, it will spoil the SP games IMO. And having two separate system for MP and SP, I think, may not be cost-feasible for CA, while its effectiveness is not guaranteed.

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tootee the goldfish,
headmaster of Shogun-Academy (http://shogun-academy.tripod.com)
loyal roach of Clan S.G. (http://thesilvergazwa.tripod.com)
'Pa Si Buay Chao! Si Liao Ka Song!'
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