Naval Warfare

[gregori99]

Playing the XL mod (Seljuks, Early, Hard) Does anyone know how naval battles are calculated? I've just lost 19 baggalas in one action (well, two, in the same area) against a similar number of English barques. And I've had similar heavy defeats in this game. Barques only have 1 attack against a baggala's 2 defence so on the face of it the bagalas should have their fair share of successes but it's not really happening. I know there is a random element but ihe losses are so one-sided that something else must be happening. None of the barques have more than 1 star and a lot of my ships do (did) also.

Barques have a speed of 3 to the baggala's 2, I wonder how much of an effect that has...

I thrash them on land though :laugh4:

I should have mentioned that while I lost 19 ships, the English lost just 1 :(

[macsen rufus]

Does anyone know how naval battles are calculated?

:no:

... but there's been lots of speculation, I'd suggest a search of the archives.

:creep:

[caravel]

Too much speculation in fact, I've had to ban myself from any further speculation.

As well as stats you need to check the "command" stars of the ships in the enemy fleet, especially the lead ship. This does seem to make a big difference to the outcome of battles. I've often unexpectedly lost a whole fleet of Caravels/Baggalas to a solitary enemy Dromon/Galley/Barque. In short we are no nearer to understanding how fleets work in MTW.

[gregori99]

Thanks macsen rufus and Caravel. I did a search and found some interesting information and (often conlicting) opinions.

I lost a 3 ship fleet with a command rating of 3 to a single barque with zero stars. The random factor seems to be rather large, but maybe not as much as it looks like. This battle was in his home waters - maybe he gets a bonus for better knowledge of those waters. Pure speculation.

Someone suggested never attacking with less than a 2-1 advantage, also not to stack, I'm not sure why. I'd sure like to take down that full English stack with one ship :smash: The admiral of that fleet now has 6 stars he's taken out so many of my ships. The best I can do is 3 stars. But I have so many ships he's afraid to come further than the SoG.

My new strategy is to murder their king, then the new king and so on until those ships magically vanish!

[macsen rufus]

My new strategy is to murder their king, then the new king and so on until those ships magically vanish!

:yes: I finally realised how bad the naval side of things was when it dawned on me that my main "naval" strategy was to eliminate the faction on land so their ships disappear :laugh4:

[Bregil the Bowman]

Someone suggested never attacking with less than a 2-1 advantage, also not to stack, I'm not sure why. I'd sure like to take down that full English stack with one ship :smash: The admiral of that fleet now has 6 stars he's taken out so many of my ships. The best I can do is 3 stars. But I have so many ships he's afraid to come further than the SoG.

My new strategy is to murder their king, then the new king and so on until those ships magically vanish!

The Bregil method - try to finish each turn with a fairly simple battle that you can auto-calc or replay in minutes. Then quick-save, resolve the battle and see what naval results come up. Keep replaying it until you like the result. :beam: Also works on assassinations, unexpected demises of heirless monarchs and outrageous re-emergences. :laugh4: AKA Cheating :inquisitive:

I find attacking with numerical superiority and more stars in the lead ship tends to stack the odds with the player. Defensively it makes sense not to stack as the opponent has to attack fleets one by one - therefore some of your guys might escape. But speed seems to count as much as strength, which makes those 900 florin caravels fairly redundant!

[Sensei Warrior]

Someone suggested never attacking with less than a 2-1 advantage, also not to stack, I'm not sure why. I'd sure like to take down that full English stack with one ship :smash: The admiral of that fleet now has 6 stars he's taken out so many of my ships. The best I can do is 3 stars. But I have so many ships he's afraid to come further than the SoG.

I have to agree with Caravel and macsen that there has been many, many debates about how naval battles have been calculated, and we have never gotten any further at figuring it out. In that tone, every player has a 'pet' way of engaging in naval battles, and depending on how ego-maniacal that player is directly dictates how much they think everyone uses their method.

In that tone I can share what I am most comfortable with doing as it has worked for me just as often as it hasn't. Take it for what its worth. I engage the naval enemy generally with a 2-1 advantage. I do stack the same ships together eg., all Cogs in one stack, all Caravels in another.


My new strategy is to murder their king, then the new king and so on until those ships magically vanish!

I also wholeheartedly agree that this is the best strategy to a superior naval force. Why attack their 1000 ship strong armada when you can take out the 3 provences they own and be done with the whole thing.

I am somewhat saddened by this, until I realize if I wanted a naval strategy game, well then I should go out and buy one :yes: .

[scowie]

Well, here's my theory on how naval battles work:

I reckon speed plays a part in battle calculations and not just on whether you can intercept or evade an enemy fleet...

My guess is that naval battles are turn-based with each ship taking their turn to attack in a "round" similar to how fighting works in role-playing games. And I reckon the faster ships get their turns first. That could explain why faster but seemingly weaker ships often manage to defeat fleets of slower, stronger ships. Attacking first gives them an advantage.

I also think that each ship has a valour rating that you can't see, which is boosted by the command stars of the admiral (stack leader) in more or less the same way that a starred general gives bonuses.

So, I generally think a big stack of fast ships makes a more powerful fleet than a big stack of slower/stronger ships. The running costs of a ship is probably a better guide to how good it is than any other individual stat!

[macsen rufus]

Well, as far as I can determine, there's a "stats" element, and there's a "random" element - and the random element is FAR more significant.

My impression recently has been that the DEFENDER has the advantage - when I launch a naval war, I lose the battles, when the AI does it with the same fleets in space, I win.

Though to be honest, I think the only real rule is "The AI wins"....