Maksimus
10-27-2007, 03:45
I must say again at the start of this thread, that( I will repeat myself as always), EB 1 is the best RTW modification of today, and yet... There are so many things that can be touched and unrolled in a noble intention to target and help EB team (even in just a few suggestions).
I hope, very much, that this post will be useful, because it tends (with my impressions of EB) to target the main essence of RTW gameplay and help (if you allow;) EB team in developing work forward the future versions of EB in its wonderful form.
First of all, let me just type that my impressions are based on my current campaign (that I will quit after this post).
I play on -Very Hard- difficulty (both Campaign and Battle – please don’t blame the difficulty level for my impressions –
I understand it should be played on medium – its just me and other devoted RTW veteran-fans ) with Makedonia, I have never used cheats and I would be very glad to load a picture of my campaign but I don’t know how to do that (sorry), - so I will have to ’name’ coordinates of my Empire just by typing the names of settlements within the My Empires ’air-borders’.. Here we go – I hold:
Dalminion – Singidunim – Sarmiszegethusa – Olbia – Pantikapion – Byzantion – Ipsos – Rhodos – Salamis – Sidon – Memphis – Alexandreia – Kydonia – Sparte – Ambrakia – Dalminion its 246 BC (and let me note that for couple of years I did not activate EBsript besause I tought it is not important – stupid me) I am in constant plus of 20000 per turn and I have plus of 15000 and constant building all the time in all regions that are manly my Satrapies. I have destroyed KoinonH and Dacia.
Now, I will shortly address my impressions of EB 1 sorted by subject (it is my free-choise actually :)
AI : In Campaign Map – AI can’t be blamed for playing the way it does, I think there are some positive moves from EB 0.8 series and because proper campaign AI is very hard-coded (I think) and you can’t realy change that – do I had couple of naval invasions led by KHellenon (before I took Rhodos) and Aegypt (before I entered Salamis) – so Campaign AI is somewhat alright and good (and I don’t use BI.exe). But, Battle AI is a different storry, sorry for this one, but, I think that at some point, even vanilla RTW battle AI was better and more challenging – do one can actually see EB team made efforts in implementing their own AI formations and maybe some proper AI – but that is maybe one small (still important) part that I am sure you EBs are working on (and if you are not – you should realy consider adding Darth AI in EB 1.1 – that would be a ’clean’ solution – RTR uses it...so? untill you make your own better or just mod Darth!;)
UNITS: They are great basically – very nice (do I found some missing animations for FreedSlaves – they seem to want to kill my troops with a stone that is attached to their hand – but wont fly), still, I think the fine balance is found in EB 1, some may say it is ‘more’ barbarian world than in all other RTW mods – but that is fine, no one should question EB sources and consensus reached among the members (even if there are maybe no historians from Italy, Asian or Greece in EB team – I had to type this one;). Naturally I played with Makedonija so I have my impressions from that corner –
I have noticed that phalanx is very effective (as always), but could not resstist one impression that leads me to a conclusion that in EB – phalanx is not a popular formation. I know that EB is trying to ‘phalanx’ the phalanx in to a regular ‘not god wining’ formation as in other RTW and vanilla mods, but sometime I wonder if that is going to far, realy.
There was a number of occasions where I realy had to triple the game speed and wait for 3-4 minutes before my Silver Shield phalanx kills (in guard and phalanx mod) one unit that is directly faced with a spear wall – and that goes for ‘less-worth’ units too – including cavalry – Sometimes, I would besiege a city and I would go in where I had to wait even more in tight streets for my phalanx to kill anyone in the same manner as mentioned before – and If I would just order the phalanx attack – I would have had heavy casualties no matter whom I’m against with…So, It is kind off essential that you turn of time limit for battle and do a lot of ‘triple speed up’ during a regular battle (not to say a heavy one – like when I fought Dacia in their woods and snow).
Still you win with phalanx, but it takes some very long time to kill with it and make enemies run. Ill add this about cavalry – they are often and quite regulary usless in battle (not to mention city fights - exept when you run down enemies that are already broken by infantry or archers), even after and after a full charge – one Sucessor’s or GreekMedium or Thessalian cavalry just can’t run down one unit of some light infantry (not spearmen) even if that is down the hill or in flat terrain without losing 60-70% of all men on horse (and my experience shows that things stay the same even if that cavalry is armor-upgraded, level 6-8 exp and in full scale numbers)– that is not right, is it? – here we have nobles or minor nobles on horse that are being killed like rabbits in a hunt by some ‘native spearmen’ or ‘peltasts’ that were just standing and waiting for the cavalry-full-charge-impact.. I realy suggest that if EB team is wondering if cavalry is a bit underestimated – they should think ‘yes’ and work it out – just by lowering the costs or making cavalry a bit stronger(2hp maybe? Or + 30% melee? - my view). And to note – even my Generals can’t handle infantry and the same goes for them (do, hp2 for them would be very nice). And I have noticed that most of ‘galatian’ and ‘barb’ soldiers are far biger –
I mean taler then my soldiers – I understand that is one ‘regular’ pattern from vanilla but at least my SShields should be big as one ‘medium-size’ barbarian unit – after all, SShields passed long way and only the strongest (and the biggest) survived to be in those units – and I am not saying ‘let’s just make them ‘big’ because..’ it is a nice visual effect that would make them bigger then the rest of Macedonian or greek phalanx.
DIFFICULTY and CHALLENGE; EB 1 is hard to play (especially on VeryHard) , and one can see that devotion behind a great effort to balance EB gameplay (through EB scripts). But, cutting down money earnings and making one unit cost more than one city palace is not a very popular or ‘real’ solution either (not to say that upkeep is expensieve as hell)… this is the catch.. - I have, already, addressed this issue in CityMod thread, but that was in a wrong context.
Now, – Mostly, behind challenges of EB 1, are, some pure, simple, and interesting facts (two of things)... - First, there is EBscript that ‘makes’ money for CPU (wich is fine – I have my brain), and – Second, there are some very tempting and short construction times for prime buildings (not to say palaces) that CPU uses with his hands dirty all the time…And that! - is a big problem and one sad fact that makes questions for EB 1 gameplay…a lot of questions. .. Let me explain..
When I first entered AsiaMinor in my campaign (and not to say Aegypt) in 250 or 255 bc…, almost every town had royal or army barracks – and I only had army in Pela for example..
But when I entered Aegypt – there were more royalbarracks then units..every city had RoyalBarracks – that made my opponents way more powerfull, as a matter of a fact – I decided to write this after my Heroic victory over Aegypt (I killed 4200 and lost 700) near Side when I got CTD after… that was it for me, I won’t spend another two hours on the same battle again, and among those Aegypt losses are 2000 elite and medium phalanx.. They had that while I had to combine my cavalry, phalanx and archers from the stepes..
And because of my lack of money due to campaigning in AsiaMinor and losses due to the abnormall amount of elite and medium phalanx of Ageypt - I had to destroy all ‘no use to me’ royall barracks and made a fortune (now, I surely would have not destroyed it If I was able to use it – SEE! Even if you make one Royal Barracks for all Hellenic – you will profit less, and that is a challenge, This way you always have money just by destroying buildings – wich is not (I hope) the point.
I don’t belive that that is EB intention – to destroy all around and to exterminate population so you can keep peace (and I know that because of very negative points that my Fleader level 9 is getting – do that was not the case in history – not if you look Alexandros or Julius Caesar).
Only thing you need is a small army with one siege equipment and two ships – so you can cruse around Medditerrain and sack cities with small garnissons..then you destroy all and leave – very simple. But if you can use some of that ‘high-end ‘ barracks you surely would not destroy them att all!! That is the point of making Macedonian phalanx recruatable by unit ‘specification’ – not buildings ones (so when you have Alexandrea, you use local population to fill your ranks – local Greeks that fill the same type of unit ranks but for a different faction)…..
Puffff….. I am not finished.. I just cant type no more … I will now just finish with my general suggestions if I may..because I love EB .. realy.. don’t think that some of my comments change that, I will work by my self and post that here – Its just that I think that these suggestions are good for EB and will make EB more popular with experienced players and RTW veterans that can play RTW for money and all day long if they must ;)
So, here are suggestions: EB team should work on implementing some CITYMOD version for real, I personaly implemented such a mod in my vanilla two years ago just by editing exp_desc_buildings and decs_start txt – Making capitols and big cities big (with army barracks from the start) and prolonging construction time for 40-50 turns for some prime and army buildings – that made big cities big and small – small – that also made players fight for big cities and trade centers all the time wich was very historic and nice…
Then, please add some positive effect that Academy and schools have, they should bring more to happiness and law and not to say development in one city than all other structures. And if you can add more to siege equipement – like, more ‘pieces’ of it that should realy approve the maintaince money of 3200 minai… Like this::
;345
type generic siege 30mina
dictionary generic_siege_30mina ; Triakontaiminai Lithoboloi
category siege
class missile
voice_type General_1
soldier greek_artillery_crew, 60, 8, 0.85
officer ebofficer_hellenic_officer
officer ebofficer_hellenic_standardbearer
engine 30Mballista
attributes sea_faring
formation 1.5, 1.5, 3, 3, 3, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 8, 2, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, knife, 0 ,0.04
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 20, 2, boulder, 300, 30, siege_missile, blade, blunt, none, 25 ,1
stat_sec_attr ap, bp, area,
stat_pri_armour 1, 7, 0, flesh
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 0
stat_ground 0, 0, 0, 0
stat_mental 7, normal, untrained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 15000, 3200, 30, 40, 15000
ownership thrace, greek_cities, macedon, romans_julii, numidia, egypt, spain, romans_brutii, seleucid, saba, slave, carthage
;346
type generic siege 1talent
dictionary generic_siege_1talent ; Monotalanta Lithoboloi
category siege
class missile
voice_type General_1
soldier greek_artillery_crew, 60, 4, 0.85
officer ebofficer_hellenic_officer
officer ebofficer_hellenic_standardbearer
engine 1Tballista
attributes sea_faring
formation 1.5, 1.5, 3, 3, 3, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 8, 2, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, knife, 0 ,0.04
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 38, 2, big_boulder, 240, 30, siege_missile, blade, blunt, none, 25 ,1
stat_sec_attr ap, bp, area, launching
stat_pri_armour 1, 7, 0, flesh
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 0
stat_ground 0, 0, 0, 0
stat_mental 7, normal, untrained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 30000, 4500, 30, 40, 30000
ownership thrace, greek_cities, macedon, romans_julii, numidia, egypt, spain, romans_brutii, seleucid, saba, slave, carthage
so you have an officer, more soldiers and ‘pieces’ of siege equipment, but times 2 less attack – so it brings reality.. and it does realy..
Sorry if this is to much, I belive that EB team is already in a lot of work and certainly that these kind of posts don’t realy help much..
But, I told the whole truth and my deep toughts (ok, just my toughts;) that would maybe help in creating EB even better that it is.. I salute you all:yes: !
Thank you for your time!
I hope, very much, that this post will be useful, because it tends (with my impressions of EB) to target the main essence of RTW gameplay and help (if you allow;) EB team in developing work forward the future versions of EB in its wonderful form.
First of all, let me just type that my impressions are based on my current campaign (that I will quit after this post).
I play on -Very Hard- difficulty (both Campaign and Battle – please don’t blame the difficulty level for my impressions –
I understand it should be played on medium – its just me and other devoted RTW veteran-fans ) with Makedonia, I have never used cheats and I would be very glad to load a picture of my campaign but I don’t know how to do that (sorry), - so I will have to ’name’ coordinates of my Empire just by typing the names of settlements within the My Empires ’air-borders’.. Here we go – I hold:
Dalminion – Singidunim – Sarmiszegethusa – Olbia – Pantikapion – Byzantion – Ipsos – Rhodos – Salamis – Sidon – Memphis – Alexandreia – Kydonia – Sparte – Ambrakia – Dalminion its 246 BC (and let me note that for couple of years I did not activate EBsript besause I tought it is not important – stupid me) I am in constant plus of 20000 per turn and I have plus of 15000 and constant building all the time in all regions that are manly my Satrapies. I have destroyed KoinonH and Dacia.
Now, I will shortly address my impressions of EB 1 sorted by subject (it is my free-choise actually :)
AI : In Campaign Map – AI can’t be blamed for playing the way it does, I think there are some positive moves from EB 0.8 series and because proper campaign AI is very hard-coded (I think) and you can’t realy change that – do I had couple of naval invasions led by KHellenon (before I took Rhodos) and Aegypt (before I entered Salamis) – so Campaign AI is somewhat alright and good (and I don’t use BI.exe). But, Battle AI is a different storry, sorry for this one, but, I think that at some point, even vanilla RTW battle AI was better and more challenging – do one can actually see EB team made efforts in implementing their own AI formations and maybe some proper AI – but that is maybe one small (still important) part that I am sure you EBs are working on (and if you are not – you should realy consider adding Darth AI in EB 1.1 – that would be a ’clean’ solution – RTR uses it...so? untill you make your own better or just mod Darth!;)
UNITS: They are great basically – very nice (do I found some missing animations for FreedSlaves – they seem to want to kill my troops with a stone that is attached to their hand – but wont fly), still, I think the fine balance is found in EB 1, some may say it is ‘more’ barbarian world than in all other RTW mods – but that is fine, no one should question EB sources and consensus reached among the members (even if there are maybe no historians from Italy, Asian or Greece in EB team – I had to type this one;). Naturally I played with Makedonija so I have my impressions from that corner –
I have noticed that phalanx is very effective (as always), but could not resstist one impression that leads me to a conclusion that in EB – phalanx is not a popular formation. I know that EB is trying to ‘phalanx’ the phalanx in to a regular ‘not god wining’ formation as in other RTW and vanilla mods, but sometime I wonder if that is going to far, realy.
There was a number of occasions where I realy had to triple the game speed and wait for 3-4 minutes before my Silver Shield phalanx kills (in guard and phalanx mod) one unit that is directly faced with a spear wall – and that goes for ‘less-worth’ units too – including cavalry – Sometimes, I would besiege a city and I would go in where I had to wait even more in tight streets for my phalanx to kill anyone in the same manner as mentioned before – and If I would just order the phalanx attack – I would have had heavy casualties no matter whom I’m against with…So, It is kind off essential that you turn of time limit for battle and do a lot of ‘triple speed up’ during a regular battle (not to say a heavy one – like when I fought Dacia in their woods and snow).
Still you win with phalanx, but it takes some very long time to kill with it and make enemies run. Ill add this about cavalry – they are often and quite regulary usless in battle (not to mention city fights - exept when you run down enemies that are already broken by infantry or archers), even after and after a full charge – one Sucessor’s or GreekMedium or Thessalian cavalry just can’t run down one unit of some light infantry (not spearmen) even if that is down the hill or in flat terrain without losing 60-70% of all men on horse (and my experience shows that things stay the same even if that cavalry is armor-upgraded, level 6-8 exp and in full scale numbers)– that is not right, is it? – here we have nobles or minor nobles on horse that are being killed like rabbits in a hunt by some ‘native spearmen’ or ‘peltasts’ that were just standing and waiting for the cavalry-full-charge-impact.. I realy suggest that if EB team is wondering if cavalry is a bit underestimated – they should think ‘yes’ and work it out – just by lowering the costs or making cavalry a bit stronger(2hp maybe? Or + 30% melee? - my view). And to note – even my Generals can’t handle infantry and the same goes for them (do, hp2 for them would be very nice). And I have noticed that most of ‘galatian’ and ‘barb’ soldiers are far biger –
I mean taler then my soldiers – I understand that is one ‘regular’ pattern from vanilla but at least my SShields should be big as one ‘medium-size’ barbarian unit – after all, SShields passed long way and only the strongest (and the biggest) survived to be in those units – and I am not saying ‘let’s just make them ‘big’ because..’ it is a nice visual effect that would make them bigger then the rest of Macedonian or greek phalanx.
DIFFICULTY and CHALLENGE; EB 1 is hard to play (especially on VeryHard) , and one can see that devotion behind a great effort to balance EB gameplay (through EB scripts). But, cutting down money earnings and making one unit cost more than one city palace is not a very popular or ‘real’ solution either (not to say that upkeep is expensieve as hell)… this is the catch.. - I have, already, addressed this issue in CityMod thread, but that was in a wrong context.
Now, – Mostly, behind challenges of EB 1, are, some pure, simple, and interesting facts (two of things)... - First, there is EBscript that ‘makes’ money for CPU (wich is fine – I have my brain), and – Second, there are some very tempting and short construction times for prime buildings (not to say palaces) that CPU uses with his hands dirty all the time…And that! - is a big problem and one sad fact that makes questions for EB 1 gameplay…a lot of questions. .. Let me explain..
When I first entered AsiaMinor in my campaign (and not to say Aegypt) in 250 or 255 bc…, almost every town had royal or army barracks – and I only had army in Pela for example..
But when I entered Aegypt – there were more royalbarracks then units..every city had RoyalBarracks – that made my opponents way more powerfull, as a matter of a fact – I decided to write this after my Heroic victory over Aegypt (I killed 4200 and lost 700) near Side when I got CTD after… that was it for me, I won’t spend another two hours on the same battle again, and among those Aegypt losses are 2000 elite and medium phalanx.. They had that while I had to combine my cavalry, phalanx and archers from the stepes..
And because of my lack of money due to campaigning in AsiaMinor and losses due to the abnormall amount of elite and medium phalanx of Ageypt - I had to destroy all ‘no use to me’ royall barracks and made a fortune (now, I surely would have not destroyed it If I was able to use it – SEE! Even if you make one Royal Barracks for all Hellenic – you will profit less, and that is a challenge, This way you always have money just by destroying buildings – wich is not (I hope) the point.
I don’t belive that that is EB intention – to destroy all around and to exterminate population so you can keep peace (and I know that because of very negative points that my Fleader level 9 is getting – do that was not the case in history – not if you look Alexandros or Julius Caesar).
Only thing you need is a small army with one siege equipment and two ships – so you can cruse around Medditerrain and sack cities with small garnissons..then you destroy all and leave – very simple. But if you can use some of that ‘high-end ‘ barracks you surely would not destroy them att all!! That is the point of making Macedonian phalanx recruatable by unit ‘specification’ – not buildings ones (so when you have Alexandrea, you use local population to fill your ranks – local Greeks that fill the same type of unit ranks but for a different faction)…..
Puffff….. I am not finished.. I just cant type no more … I will now just finish with my general suggestions if I may..because I love EB .. realy.. don’t think that some of my comments change that, I will work by my self and post that here – Its just that I think that these suggestions are good for EB and will make EB more popular with experienced players and RTW veterans that can play RTW for money and all day long if they must ;)
So, here are suggestions: EB team should work on implementing some CITYMOD version for real, I personaly implemented such a mod in my vanilla two years ago just by editing exp_desc_buildings and decs_start txt – Making capitols and big cities big (with army barracks from the start) and prolonging construction time for 40-50 turns for some prime and army buildings – that made big cities big and small – small – that also made players fight for big cities and trade centers all the time wich was very historic and nice…
Then, please add some positive effect that Academy and schools have, they should bring more to happiness and law and not to say development in one city than all other structures. And if you can add more to siege equipement – like, more ‘pieces’ of it that should realy approve the maintaince money of 3200 minai… Like this::
;345
type generic siege 30mina
dictionary generic_siege_30mina ; Triakontaiminai Lithoboloi
category siege
class missile
voice_type General_1
soldier greek_artillery_crew, 60, 8, 0.85
officer ebofficer_hellenic_officer
officer ebofficer_hellenic_standardbearer
engine 30Mballista
attributes sea_faring
formation 1.5, 1.5, 3, 3, 3, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 8, 2, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, knife, 0 ,0.04
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 20, 2, boulder, 300, 30, siege_missile, blade, blunt, none, 25 ,1
stat_sec_attr ap, bp, area,
stat_pri_armour 1, 7, 0, flesh
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 0
stat_ground 0, 0, 0, 0
stat_mental 7, normal, untrained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 15000, 3200, 30, 40, 15000
ownership thrace, greek_cities, macedon, romans_julii, numidia, egypt, spain, romans_brutii, seleucid, saba, slave, carthage
;346
type generic siege 1talent
dictionary generic_siege_1talent ; Monotalanta Lithoboloi
category siege
class missile
voice_type General_1
soldier greek_artillery_crew, 60, 4, 0.85
officer ebofficer_hellenic_officer
officer ebofficer_hellenic_standardbearer
engine 1Tballista
attributes sea_faring
formation 1.5, 1.5, 3, 3, 3, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 8, 2, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, knife, 0 ,0.04
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 38, 2, big_boulder, 240, 30, siege_missile, blade, blunt, none, 25 ,1
stat_sec_attr ap, bp, area, launching
stat_pri_armour 1, 7, 0, flesh
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 0
stat_ground 0, 0, 0, 0
stat_mental 7, normal, untrained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 30000, 4500, 30, 40, 30000
ownership thrace, greek_cities, macedon, romans_julii, numidia, egypt, spain, romans_brutii, seleucid, saba, slave, carthage
so you have an officer, more soldiers and ‘pieces’ of siege equipment, but times 2 less attack – so it brings reality.. and it does realy..
Sorry if this is to much, I belive that EB team is already in a lot of work and certainly that these kind of posts don’t realy help much..
But, I told the whole truth and my deep toughts (ok, just my toughts;) that would maybe help in creating EB even better that it is.. I salute you all:yes: !
Thank you for your time!