British education - is it really so bad ?

[cegorach]

SOURCE (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=489793&in_page_id=1770#StartComments)


Top of the class in England - but Polish boy goes home for better education
By PAUL SIMS

When Aleksander Kucharski arrived in Britain from Poland, he expected he would get a first-class education.

He was accepted at a Roman Catholic state school which boasts one of the best academic records in the country and is recognised by Ofsted as outstanding.

But after two years he is so disillusioned that he has gone home to his old school, saying his British classmates were interested only in shopping and partying.


Disillusioned: 16-year-old Aleksander Kucharski has gone back to Poland for his education after two years in an English school

"I was treading water within the British education system," said 16-year-old Aleksander.

"The boys were childish, they didn't read papers and weren't interested in anything.

"And the girls only talked about shopping and what they were going to do on Friday night.

"In Poland you have to know the names of all countries, even the rivers. But in England hardly anyone could place Kenya or Poland on the map. The teachers didn't test knowledge, only effort."

Aleksander started at St Thomas More High School in North Shields, North Tyneside, after his parents, who are both doctors, came to England.

In June he informed his mother Anja, a psychiatrist, and father Robert, a medical consultant, that he was returning home to continue his schooling.

While they remained here, Aleksander went back to Lodz in Poland, where he has moved in with his grandmother and enrolled at III Liceum Ogolnoksztalcace, a state school.



'Outstanding': St Thomas More High School in North Shields
Although he received glowing praise from his Tyneside teachers, Aleksander claims he was being held back by other pupils, whom he accused of having no interest in learning new things.

He said: "Here in Lodz I go to debates, I talk about films and I try to persuade people not to use plastic bags. During the elections here we posted flyers for my neighbour who was out campaigning.

"But in Newcastle no one cared about globalisation, the greenhouse effect, the EU, war or politics.

"Maybe it's because they get everything on a plate, because there was no communism there and there's no real poverty, they don't need to worry about their future.

"In Poland parents tell their children about financial problems. But in Britain I think they don't have them or they tried to hide them, to buy their children everything."

Aleksander said that before he left Poland he was an average student.

"In Poland, I only ever got average marks in maths, yet in the UK teachers said I was a genius," he claimed yesterday. "After a year I was top of the class in everything, and that includes English."

The excellent facilities at St Thomas More failed to improve educational standards there, he said.

"They would give me a list of terms and definitions. The teacher told us to put them into pairs and colour them the right colour - like at primary school."

Last night, the deputy head of his school in Lodz, Agata Jagielska, said: "We know that Polish pupils are better at acquiring facts and knowledge.

"Perhaps because we are poorer and we don't have such great facilities in Poland, pupils are more motivated to seek out possibilities for themselves."

St Thomas More is one of the best performing schools in the country. A total of 1,700 students aged between 11 and 18 attend the school which was established in 1988 following amalgamation and has won several national awards for excellence.

A spokesman for North Tyneside Council said: "Every child and parent has the right to choose the education they wish.

"We are disappointed that this pupil has decided to move away.

"Only weeks ago St Thomas More was recognised by Ofsted as being an outstanding school with 82 per cent of students achieving five or more A*-C grades. Among those, 16 came out with nine or more A*-A grades."




I have friends who are working in the UK and quite many agree that the education is somehow wrong, but they are all over 20 so not a single one of them can say a word about the pre-uni level education in the UK.



I have spent about a year in the UK too and because of my interests I have read a number of historical books - once or twice I even checked what the British pupils have to know to pass GCSE and I thought it is rather easy... Still I thought it is rather due to my vast knowledge than the general level of the British education - mind that I have checked all the questions, mainly about British history and I had no contact with certain information since my old days in the secondary school (so circa 10 years ago) so I assumed I could not understand/not be able to answer a couple of questions.


Next - I remember some polls about the general knowledge of the citizens of the UK and some of those got rather suprising results - like some 15 % assuming that Churchill never existed...



About the Polish education system I cannot say much right now, though I have heard it is worse than in 'my times' - still our GCSE (matura) remains quite difficult to pass with some 20 % failing last year and the level of general knowledge you HAVE to know is still decent.




So I am asking you guys is that REALLY so bad in the UK ? Or is it an usual Daily Mail nonsense.


Still I have read a text about the teenager in a polish newspaper (not a tabloid) some time ago and it looks very similar so seems rather reliable...



And finally - some of my friends are going to study in the Uk after they finish in Poland, but for now all seem interested in getting 'the paper' rather than to learn anything new (except the language).

[Fragony]

Isn't everything better in Poland??

[cegorach]

FRAGONY - are you from the UK ? Are you going to discuss the topic ?

If not - go to your cave, thank you.

[Fragony]

We don't have caves in the Netherlands, didn't you know??

[Banquo's Ghost]

Gentlemen, we have an interesting topic posted for debate.

Let's concentrate on that rather than pot-shots at each other.

Thank you kindly.

:bow:

[cegorach]

Gentlemen, we have an interesting topic posted for debate.

Let's concentrate on that rather than pot-shots at each other.

Thank you kindly.

:bow:

Please delete all the off-topic posts before another troll appears to ask about polar bears, global warming, Bush, Putin or anything else which is not about the British education.

Thanks.:2thumbsup:

[macsen rufus]

his British classmates were interested only in shopping and partying.


there, I think, is the core of the problem in this case. Britain still has a heavy streak of anti-intellectualism. I'm afraid the know-nothings are in the majority and want to drag everyone down to their level. I've been out of school for more decades than I care to recall now, but seeing my friends' kids is depressing - how little they know, how stunted their thinking and short-sighted their goals.

Although the problems show up in education, I don't think they're purely educational problems. It's all to do with an atomised society, easy affluence, lack of understanding of consequences, lack of compassion, it's all "rights" and no "responsibilities", our kids are getting older but they aren't growing up.

Oh dear, that was bit of a Daily Mail moment, I must sit down a little til I recover ~D

Or put another way:

"Luxury! In my day we had to live in a paper bag in the middle of the motorway, lick road clean for us breakfast, then we'd go to work down the pit and pay for the privilege. But tell that to kids today ...." :laugh4:

[Tribesman]

Or is it an usual Daily Mail nonsense.

Possibly , when there are things like...Maybe it's because they get everything on a plate, because there was no communism there and there's no real poverty, they don't need to worry about their future.
...in it it is a good clue as to the spin .
Newcastle Eh , that was the place that lost almost all of its industry right , the place where due to rampant poverty and people trying to get out of the place to find a future the government would sell a houses to people for 50 pence if they promised that they would actually live in Newcastle and stay there .

[Rodion Romanovich]

I especially agree about the part about testing effort rather than knowledge, which seems common in all of western Europe. If you're really good (because you learnt it earlier, or have talent), but didn't have to work hard to produce the correct answer, you're punished for it. That's not really fair because a lot of people with good brains have other disadvantages, like not that easy finding a mate to reproduce with, or being able to show his/her social skills when applying for a job (being able to show them, and having them, are different things). Why should they be deprived of their one strength and given less help to improve themselves further, than the people at school that won't improve anyway no matter how much help they're given? It's those less successful at school that get all the help that go and take all high-wage jobs and good-looking women for wives anyway. Having decent brains is painful enough as it is, there's no need for school to add insult to injury and reppress intelligent people for their intelligence. At least not, unless you also start punishing and restraining good-looking and charming people at parties, or restraining people who talk loud and have an easy to convincing others that they have social skill (even if they often haven't) at job interviews, but that isn't going to happen.

[Bijo]

[quote]there, I think, is the core of the problem in this case. Britain still has a heavy streak of anti-intellectualism. I'm afraid the know-nothings are in the majority and want to drag everyone down to their level. I've been out of school for more decades than I care to recall now, but seeing my friends' kids is depressing - how little they know, how stunted their thinking and short-sighted their goals.

Although the problems show up in education, I don't think they're purely educational problems. It's all to do with an atomised society, easy affluence, lack of understanding of consequences, lack of compassion, it's all "rights" and no "responsibilities", our kids are getting older but they aren't growing up.[quote]
Seems true enough. I would like to add that anti-intellectualism is something that has always been there regarding mankind. The majority of humans is average, usually simpletons, with lack of morality, lack of wisdom, judgment, intellect, and so forth, and they heavily operate on ego, emotions, and desires, which would make matters worse, as these dominant traits could easily prevent the previously mentioned higher traits from swelling up.

However I must say just because a person has "received education" -- rather called schooling -- and this person is above the rest it does not mean this person is intellectual. It just shows a good student or learner who is reasonably smart, and smarter than the aaaaverage bear....? :laugh4:


@Rodion Romanovich
From what I have seen it seems education is designed indeed to aid the average and the stupid and to neglect the intelligent. What you mentioned about intelligent people having certain problems -- usually socio-emotional -- isn't always true though it seems to occur often. It it just about power, majority, and the likes, and the minority is suffering for it.

[econ21]

International tests of science and maths tend to put UK schools as roughly equal to US ones in performance and both somewhat below those of most other OECD countries. Poland has not participated in any of these tests, except the Second IEA Science round, where it outperformed the UK by around 10%. So I find it plausible that Polish schools might be thought better than UK schools.

On the Daily Mail report, I did wonder whether Poland has a more "traditional" and knowledge-based curriculum than the UK. For example, I doubt British geography lessons would focus on things like where Kenya is or what is its capital. They would focus on the processes of soil erosion or other such topics. Some people I know whose kids move from foreign schools to UK ones have reported the level of maths taught is lower than in their countries, but again the curriculum may differ. I was looking at the Maths Standard Attainment Tests for 11 year olds and they were almost like IQ problem-solving tests, rather than routine algebra and numerical calculations that might be expected in Japan or China.

Teaching in a UK university, I have not noticed a tendency for British students to be outperformed by other Europeans - quite the contrary, although there is of course a big language disadvantage. I find British students tend to be very good at the "essay-based" questions, whereas European students sometimes struggle with that format. Culturally, the UK seems less inclined towards the maths and science that tends to be what is internationally tested.

There are also probably issues about British school children not being very switched on school - perhaps particularly boys. But on the other hand those that do make it to the university I teach at are very hardworking and well motivated (although they do tend to see education very instrumentally as the route to a high paying job rather than as intellectually interesting in itself.)

There's been a lot of debate about whether UK education has improved or declined. But some innovations - like the Standard Attainment Tests, like the literacy and numeracy hours - do seem to be improvements. And my impression is that at university, British students are well equipped to keep pace with subjects that do tend to advance fairly rapidly over time. Specifically, economics, the discipline I teach, has advanced a lot since the 1960s, so that what must be taught for an undergraduate degree is at a higher level than what was taught 20 years ago. I've heard mathematicians express an opposite concern - that their first year entrants are no longer as well equipped as a few decades ago - so it may vary by subject.

[rory_20_uk]

Luckily there are still enough schools mainly, but not exclusively in the Private sector who are elitist and do spend more time stretching the abilities of their pupils rather than pretending that all can somehow get to the same level without in any way stressing them.

There is only the need for a few highly qualified people in percentage terms to fill the top posts in the country for the country to continue functioning. The rest can continue to be political pawns for the Commons - where did most of the Front Bench and Opposition Bench go to school? Generally Private / Grammer and then on to Oxbridge - as will happen to their kids.

~:smoking:

[Husar]

Grat Post Rodion Romanovich. :2thumbsup:

Also why would someone(excluding geologists) want to know all the rivers of all countries? :inquisitive:

[cegorach]

Grat Post Rodion Romanovich. :2thumbsup:

Also why would someone(excluding geologists) want to know all the rivers of all countries? :inquisitive:


NOONE says ALL, but a number of them would be all you need - can you imagine someone who isn't expected to know where for example Nile is ?

It is all about the general knowledge we gain when learning in schools - if that decreases in time the democracy will be a farce...

[Fragony]

Speaking of which, where is Nile?

[Proletariat]

I too have heard rumors of this so called 'nyle' in my US education. I would also like to hear this legend confirmed or debunked. Any scholars available willing to chime in?

[Husar]

Speaking of which, where is Nile?
Brazil IIRC.
I heard about some team that wanted to explore this myth but never returned. :no:
Was about some aztec pyramids or so.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Looks like there is no denial that educational standards have declined then. :no:

Bah. Back when I was young, we had to learn all of the world's important rivers. I can still sum them all up: the Rhine, the Meuse, the Seine, the Garonne, the Adour, the Loire, the Rhône.

[Boyar Son]

Looks like there is no denial that educational standards have declined then. :no:

Bah. Back when I was young, we had to learn all of the world's important rivers. I can still sum them all up: the Rhine, the Meuse, the Seine, the Garonne, the Adour, the Loire, the Rhône.

sounds like you had to learn all of europes major rivers!~D

[Pannonian]

Looks like there is no denial that educational standards have declined then. :no:

Bah. Back when I was young, we had to learn all of the world's important rivers. I can still sum them all up: the Rhine, the Meuse, the Seine, the Garonne, the Adour, the Loire, the Rhône.
How is the Rhine important?

[Husar]

How is the Rhine important?
Think about the Weimar republic before this evil dictator took over.

[Caius]

British education - is it really so bad ?
You cant compare if you dont have at least 10 countries education. Because it seems better than ours.

[Fragony]

How is the Rhine important?

Without it my boat would sitting on sand, that is bad for a boat but considering the UK educational standards you probably wouldn't understand. But let's get back on topic because this is deeply tragic, how would you feel if you went to the UK for the chicks and had to get back to Poland for an education?

[rotorgun]

Is it just me folks, or does the young Master Aleksander Kucharskier seem to be marching to the beat of a different drum? I mean, how many 16 year olds have that kind of focus? He seems to me to be an exception rather than the rule. While I do admit that the education system in the west in general is falling behind in some areas, I can't believe that Britain-the leading practitioner of the Public School System, is that far behind Poland. I also find it hard to swallow that 16 year olds are that much superior from one country to the next.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Looks like there is no denial that educational standards have declined then. :no:

Bah. Back when I was young, we had to learn all of the world's important rivers. I can still sum them all up: the Rhine, the Meuse, the Seine, the Garonne, the Adour, the Loire, the Rhône.
Indeed, those are all the rivers you need to know when you order where your tanks should get rolling to! :tongue:

[Fragony]

I can't believe that Britain-the leading practitioner of the Public School System, is that far behind Poland. I also find it hard to swallow that 16 year olds are that much superior from one country to the next.

The poles I used to enslave contract for my chicken/fish cleaning fetish certainly weren't the most interesting persons I have ever met, but the owner of the camping where I housed them seemed to disagree :laugh4: :laugh4:

[Justiciar]

*Beats his monitor with a stick to get the words off*

Yes, state schools, at least, are a disaster.


Without it my boat would sitting on sand, that is bad for a boat but considering the UK educational standards you probably wouldn't understand. But let's get back on topic because this is deeply tragic, how would you feel if you went to the UK for the chicks and had to get back to Poland for an education?
Dissapointed. Ba-dum-tish. :shame:

[Fragony]

Dissapointed. Ba-dum-tish. :shame:

See what I am getting to? This had Chopin nocturne in c-minor all over it. You go to the land of milk and honey and find out milk comes from cows, and the little honey there is to be found is sure to get you stung. You go back and find out Polanski and Chopin beat you to it.

[cegorach]

Is it just me folks, or does the young Master Aleksander Kucharskier seem to be marching to the beat of a different drum? I mean, how many 16 year olds have that kind of focus? He seems to me to be an exception rather than the rule.

I really doubt that. There is a huge growth of demand for knowledge in recent years especially.
Most likely he was just an ordinary student if he didn't win any awards - which isn't mentioned - in his high school in Lodz which is rather avarage too... at least I haven't see the 3rd LO in Lodz anywhere at the top in school ratings. :juggle2:


Here is their webpage (foreign language sections do not work - perhaps yet )

http://trojka.szkoly.lodz.pl/index.htm

there is no information about any great achievements... Lodz is a large city, so the school might be better than in a number of smaller cities, but that is all.


BTW It is Kucharski

[shlin28]

Hm... everyone here only talks about state schools and private schools... but they forgot... GRAMMAR SCHOOLS!

I go to one, not as bad as state schools, but not as good as privates either. But when I first came here from China, I was quite surprised at the standards here, and for primary school and first couple years in the grammar school I coasted through easily. I can easily see why schools from other countries might be better than those here.

[Fragony]

There is a huge growth of demand for knowledge in recent years especially.

It isn't that hard, bring straw, plant seeds, and don't forget to feed the horses how hard can it be? The seeds will become plants and the horses won't die, equals win if you ask me. After that you can use the horses as a mean of transportation, and as meat when you overburden the economy. Also win.

[AntiochusIII]

sounds like you had to learn all of europes major rivers!~DMake that France. And, well, the Rhine which should have been France's natural borders had it not been for the pesky Germans!

Notice he doesn't even care about that insignificant canal the Danube, which to some misguided people is one of the most important rivers of Europe. :2thumbsup:

See what I am getting to? This had Chopin nocturne in c-minor all over it. You go to the land of milk and honey and find out milk comes from cows, and the little honey there is to be found is sure to get you stung. You go back and find out Polanski and Chopin beat you to it. :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

Thanks for making my day, Fragony!

[cegorach]

It isn't that hard, bring straw, plant seeds, and don't forget to feed the horses how hard can it be? The seeds will become plants and the horses won't die, equals win if you ask me. After that you can use the horses as a mean of transportation, and as meat when you overburden the economy. Also win.

After over three weeks of dealing with spammers and trolls during the election campaign I can only say:

BORING !

[Pannonian]

Think about the Weimar republic before this evil dictator took over.
Are you talking about that time when Frenchmen launched a mass corporate takeover of German industries in the Ruhr? Did German laws forbid foreign takeover bids at the time, or did you just decide to wait until it was your turn?

[Fragony]

After over three weeks of dealing with spammers and trolls during the election campaign I can only say:

BORING !
But that was a neat trick how did you do that? Not boring at all, but the presentation could have been better, a friend of mine is great with flash, pm me.

[Husar]

Are you talking about that time when Frenchmen launched a mass corporate takeover of German industries in the Ruhr? Did German laws forbid foreign takeover bids at the time, or did you just decide to wait until it was your turn?
I was talking about the time where the french almost owned the Ruhrgebiet and had lots of people stationed there.

[Strike For The South]

Wow Poland must be some sort of paridise. Those emigrants must be polaks who cant handle the sheer awesomeness that is POLAND

[Louis VI the Fat]

Okay, I think Cegorach wanted a serious debate. I don't know about Britian, but there are some general tendencies that I think are international.

One thing I've noticed, is the drive many foreign students have. Don't know about sixteen year olds, but university students, yes. The Asians, the East Europeans - some come here and education is almost a matter of life and death to them. They must succeed. For westerners, not so much. It is important, but we are more relaxed about it. Luxury? Post-materialistic interests gaining prominence in the knowledge that material interests are largely secured? Maybe.

Apart from that, I know that educational methods have changed. Largely, from teaching facts to teaching skills. I think this is the common trend globally. (Western?)
But this had been going on for decades - check your grandparents schoolbooks, you'll be shocked at the amount of dry facts they had to memorise. Are we stupider now then we were back then? I don't think so. Like one of my teachers said, today's youth may not be able to point out the Nile on a map anymore, but there's no denial that they can build a website in half an evening. Sheer magic to him.

[Craterus]

It's not the education system so much.

Just that Britain has undermotivated, stupid teenagers.

[Tribesman]

Just that Britain has undermotivated, stupid teenagers.

well it was suggested that it was a mass outbreak of attention deficit syndrome , but on further study it turned out that they just couldn't be arsed .:2thumbsup:

[Boyar Son]

It seems the whole west has undermotivated dummies.

Luckily I'll be there to lead them once get a position of high power in the US.

[Sarmatian]

Well, it is not quite the same comparing the motivation and the drive of students in their own country and those who go abroad to study. First of all, sixteen year old boy, who goes to another country to get education isn't really your typical teenager. To leave friends and family and go to another country is by itself a show of drive and motivation, so it isn't really fair to compare him with average kids. Comparing how students perform in their own countries or comparing students who are studying abroad would give us more accurate results.

Also, we should keep in mind that student living in a foreign country have far less things that could distract him/her from studying. The usually don't have as many friends as domestic students, they (usually) have no relatives, no cable tv, no playstation 3, and (probably most important) much less money.

I've been in the US, Atlantic City NJ to be more precise this summer on a work and travel program. I've spent 5 months there with about 700 hundred other guys from Serbia (there were a lot of other eastern European nations). Most of those 700 people where working two jobs for the entire summer. Some worked more than 80 hours a week. And almost all Americans I met were impressed how driven, intelligent and motivated we were. Well, since the program was for university students only, who most of the time are more intelligent than average people it is no wonder that they got that impression. Also, the point of the program was that you work as the name implies, so pretty much only people ready for that and willing to do that applied. To cut the long story short, my american friend were comparing above average group of people from Serbia with general population in the US. Seven hundred of us for the represented the whole nation for them. They thought that the entire nation was like that. But the fact is, almost none of us who worked two full time jobs in America is working two jobs in Serbia now.

Problem is that people tend to generalize too much. Some of my countrymen were saying that americans were "stupid" because most of them never leaves their country. I tried to explain that definition of travel isn't a same for american and for serbian. When you are in Serbia (and most other european countries) you pretty much just have to take a longer walk and you're in a foreign country. It's not like that in America. I'm not saying that it is good that most americans aren't traveling, I'm just pointing the reasons why. Example how people try to compare things that can't be compared that easy.

In my experience, and I visited most of Europe and US, and worked and studied in several countries, people from eastern europe tend to be more motivated and have much broader knowledge than western europeans and americans, but only by a slight margin. Not really that big that deserves a rethink of the entire educational system....

[AntiochusIII]

I think the rote-learning method that produces such brilliantly exact reproductions of textbook knowledge is rather counterproductive, myself.

The international standards often attempted to avoid any cultural distinctions that might possibly "interfere" with the fairness of such standards, so they tend towards factual knowledge that does not rely on cultural values: stuff like mathematics (1+1 = 2 anywhere) or science (gravity is gravity be it Tokyo, Khartoum, or New York that you're standing on). Amusingly enough, they in the end fall victim to the same thing they tried to avoid.

I think that the "traditional" method of learning -- direct lectures that covers as much knowledge and formulas as possible and to use them as efficiently as possible in an academic setting -- more often than not produces superior results in these kinds of tests compare to what I think is the far better method that the West comes to adopt: more critical thinking rather than formulaic knowledge.

I remembered distinctly that curiously enough East Asians for example almost universally consider Western education to be superior, and attempts are made to imitate their methods by incorporating critical thinking exercises and hands-on experiments into the curriculum. As usual, however, anything implemented by governments tend to prove unbelievably awkward and rather ineffective, so yeah.

I sure as hell cannot compete with my friends in Thailand right now if they're going to test me on mathematics or biology, but I can confidently say that I could write a far better essay than any of them; and I think the latter is rather more useful really.

Or does anyone really think those Japanese kids driving themselves insane in their countless cram schools are really learning anything worthwhile to think about? :no:

Also, Sarmatian is right. I find it funny that people in the West are complaining about how their kids are just way worse than their counterparts in other countries. Well, guess what, they aren't! Kids are kids wherever they are.

[cegorach]

Okay, I think Cegorach wanted a serious debate. I don't know about Britian, but there are some general tendencies that I think are international.

Thank you - there are far too many trolls - I guess they are cloned in huge tanks like Dolly.





One thing I've noticed, is the drive many foreign students have. Don't know about sixteen year olds, but university students, yes. The Asians, the East Europeans - some come here and education is almost a matter of life and death to them. They must succeed.

I think it is the main reason. Besides the common knowledge is that the education in the 'west' is far better so people are supposed to try their best.


But this had been going on for decades - check your grandparents schoolbooks, you'll be shocked at the amount of dry facts they had to memorise. Are we stupider now then we were back then? I don't think so. Like one of my teachers said, today's youth may not be able to point out the Nile on a map anymore, but there's no denial that they can build a website in half an evening. Sheer magic to him.

But there is NO 1 vs 2 here. It is nothing hard to learn something about the world we are living in, how to count without a calculator, what is the EU, how many continents there are etc.
Creativity doesn't necessary exclude basic knowledge. Besides there is a question if schools are to 'create' educated people or just people who have certain skills which they SHOULD learn anyway.

To some people this basic education is the LAST moment when the will read a book, deal with 'higher' culture etc.

I don't think that certain skills should replace basic education - there is no reason for it, really NONE - it can easily be combined with gaining knowledge.:yes:

[JAG]

It is rubbish.

Where is my next beer.

..

Oh a copy of the Daily Mail, brilliant now I will learn something!

..

More beer.

The end.

[Geoffrey S]

There are a lot of safety nets for failing students, both in lower and in higher education. I think, in general, if you'd talk to a teenager or a university student the majority won't have placed their study at number one; and it's very easy to do so if there are almost unlimited chances for brightish students to resit exams, redo a year, or take uni courses next semester if it doesn't work out in the current one, and the state pays for most anyway. The only pressure to perform is on those who decide they want to be good at what they're doing and aim to complete whatever they're doing quickly and with high grades, but there's almost no pressure on dropouts in the sense that they won't suddenly end up with no job prospects or below the poverty line.

[ZombieFriedNuts]

School is somewhere keep the kids in because of all the child labour laws and when the chav’s drop out and everyone goes off to collage and 6th form then education gets better its bin about 8 years since I was in secondary school and I still remember all the stupid people. and then their's the dole

And we are talking about one school here he could have tried moving somewhere a bit closer
:thumbsdown:

[Justiciar]

Or rather, it's where the chavs get off, and the brainless masses roll on to clog up our universities because they can't think of anything better to do? :inquisitive:

[CrossLOPER]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/theblog/archive/forgotpoland.jpg

[Louis VI the Fat]

School is somewhere keep the kids in because of all the child labour laws and when the chav’s drop out and everyone goes off to collage and 6th form then education gets better its bin about 8 years since I was in secondary school and I still remember all the stupid people. and then their's the dole

And we are talking about one school here he could have tried moving somewhere a bit closer
:thumbsdown::laugh4:

[Adrian II]

In the course of the (second half of) the previous century education has become a full-fledged production factor, along with capital, land and labour. Hence the need to educate as many young people as possible in ways and at levels for which they are not naturally disposed. As a result, modern mass education is not matched by popular enthusiasm. To say the least.

Our average youngsters now have to compete with the best and brightest of newcomer nations, from Poland and Serbia to India and China, and the result is intellectual mass slaughter...

[rory_20_uk]

There is no popular enthusiasm as the perceived gain for working hard is not seen as significant. The competition in China and Poland see the gains the difference between getting nothing and potentially a pleasant life.

If social security was far less the desire to get a good job and succeed would increase greatly - or it would be 40 years or so in the factory.

~:smoking:

[Slyspy]

Is there something inherently wrong with factory work or job stability?

[rory_20_uk]

Off the top of my head:

Boring
Menial
Not challenging
Poor pay
Poor career advancement

If it were not so poorly thought of, we'd have more factories in the UK

~:smoking:

[Tribesman]

If it were not so poorly thought of, we'd have more factories in the UK
:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
Hmmmm.....lots of factories ..... huge empire , world leader .
Not a lot of factories ..... superpowers lapdog , begging other countries to open more factories in the country .
Yep Rorys statement makes sense .:dizzy2:

[rory_20_uk]

:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
Hmmmm.....lots of factories ..... huge empire , world leader .
Not a lot of factories ..... superpowers lapdog , begging other countries to open more factories in the country .
Yep Rorys statement makes sense .:dizzy2:

Well done! One of the worst simplifications in recent memory! :thumbsup:

More valid points are the massive increase in health and safety in recent years (when brunel biult a tunnel near Bristol the death rate was greater than amongst troops in the trenches of WW1), increase in wages, increase in people's expectations.

If there was no social benefits people could either work or starve... rather like China and India. Child labour again was common - we don't have it now... India and China do.

Now we spend more money on social security than the armed forces. Could this possibly also contribute to loosing world stature?

During empire few had the vote. Those that did were the movers and shakersr in society. Now Everyone has it including the unemployed. So we can't upset them.

The up and coming societies are rough, brutal and prepared to sacrifice lives for progress... like we were when we had empire etc etc.

~:smoking:

[Tribesman]

A nice illustration of what Rory envisions when he wants a return to old values for Britain , and there was me thinking it was the opium dens and slums that appealed to him .

[rory_20_uk]

Dispute the facts if you will. That is how the Old Empires flourished and is how the new emerging powers are doing so.

Slums? Take the rose tinted specs off - there are still streets and estates where police are loathe to tread and anyone else with sense stays well clear of.

Opium dens - again I'm sure there's nowhere these days people go to get drugs...

~:smoking:

[PanzerJaeger]

Is there something inherently wrong with factory work or job stability?

Not if you're poor and uneducated. However, the higher classes aspire to something more I would think.

[Tribesman]

Dispute the facts if you will.
Can I ?
Thank you , show me any tunnel anywhere in the world that had a higher death rate for its workers than world war 1 , it would be funny if you could , it would be absolutely hilarious if you could find a brunel one :dizzy2:

[AntiochusIII]

To be fair, Tribesman, the concept rory is explaining is not entirely wrong per se, although the little fact that such a society is equivalent to a jungle -- and that the "weaker" alternative is far more humane and, dare I say it, civilized -- is left unmentioned.

But if one gets into detail and sociological theories then the weaknesses of the "Britannia Empire" [/anime reference and still relevant, ha!] type of society would also come up in a very, very long list.

[Tribesman]

To be fair, Tribesman, the concept rory is explaining is not entirely wrong per se
I just thought it was a funny example , especially given brunel seniors work to make tunnelling safer . Whats also funny is that he mentioned increase in wages and chose an example of a job that at the time was very very well paid .
I suppose it could be viewed be an example of faults in British education delivered by someone who apperently got a good enough education to try medicine as a career .:laugh4:

[Papewaio]

Our average youngsters now have to compete with the best and brightest of newcomer nations, from Poland and Serbia to India and China, and the result is intellectual mass slaughter...

While your best and brightest are fighting with the other nations not in the martial sense but marital. They are finding like minds and hard workers whom they marry.

It is non-intellectual mass slaughter. The intellectuals get to be ex-pats going from one juicy job to another regardless of nation... they have the oppourtunity to be free flowing labour and reap the benefits.

[Brenus]

“But this had been going on for decades - check your grandparents schoolbooks, you'll be shocked at the amount of dry facts they had to memorise. Are we stupider now then we were back then? I don't think so. Like one of my teachers said, today's youth may not be able to point out the Nile on a map anymore, but there's no denial that they can build a website in half an evening. Sheer magic to him.”
You mean the ones with a computer at home…
I don’t think we are stupider, I think we know less… And to know cut and paste is not very important.
My point of view is all about a global policy: Rich and powerful families sent their kids to school where you learn facts and how to analyse them.
Ordinary families sent their kids where they will learn skills (officially) and develop their personality.

And the result is the powerful families will keep the power and the others will be happy to get benefits and low salaries: And they will think of themselves as the ones who trick the system…

Now, is the British system so bad? I had to say yes.
When I arrived in England I applied for a job as teacher. For that, you have to do a kind of day of presence in a school before to go for the training.
It is a good thing to do. I was absolutely shock by the unruly pupils roaming the classroom, the teachers spending their time in “please can you sit down, please shut-up, please calm down” basic discipline instead of teaching… Never forget the “please”. Pupils were less polite.
Contain of the teaching didn’t impressed me at all. Moral judgement on historical fact (was Cromwell evil?).
I am amazed by the ignorance of my nephews and nieces, and step-daughter on major subjects, not speaking of foreign languages.
My step-daughter came with a mother when I was working in Serbia, and had to go to a school in this country. She learned the language in 3 months, read Cyrillic alphabet in four, skills I never obtained, too lazy…
She learned there basic geometry, calculation, biology, all things she re-learn in England two years after. So, the Eastern countries having still the old structure (the same we had 40 years ago) are in fact more advance than ours.

Now, I don’t care of what a teenager think. I don’t think his/her opinion is as valuable as the teacher is.
School is to build free citizens, able to be responsible adults, able to make their opinions on facts, to think by themselves, not to produce workers.
As such, English system is probably what the tendency in Western Europe is: don’t traumatise ours dears kids (no competitions), no exams (no frustrations) don’t run (health and safety)…

[GiantMonkeyMan]

The problem i found with the school system was that it was completely focused on getting good exam results, it even says it in the article where the people defending the school quote their recent exam results to avoid discussing their lacking teaching. Basically when i was at school i considered myself to be one of the more 'intelligent' people compared to the idiotic chavs who just pissed about in lessons but in the exams i was pretty much average in my results (but then again i don't remember revising very hard so it could have been all my fault :oops: ). Teachers rarely strayed from the curriculum because how is the knowledge of all the major rivers in europe going to help in an exam about soil erosion? most of the stuff i know and consider useful to me i learned either at home in my own free time or after i finished school

students aren't taught knowledge that can further their intellect and make them better people, they're taught the best methods to pass exams and make the school look respectable with a whole load of A*s, As and Bs

[Strike For The South]

Not if you're poor and uneducated. However, the higher classes aspire to something more I would think.

Everyone should asprie to something great

[doc_bean]

While your best and brightest are fighting with the other nations not in the martial sense but marital. They are finding like minds and hard workers whom they marry.

It is non-intellectual mass slaughter. The intellectuals get to be ex-pats going from one juicy job to another regardless of nation... they have the oppourtunity to be free flowing labour and reap the benefits.

While you're right about a certain group of people, the top 10-20% of the intellectual masses, there are a lot of people who fall in 'the gap', at least here. A nice desk job pays less than a decent factory job, so if you don't get the opportunity to grow or become an ex-pat, you'll never get to be part of the intellectual elite.

I know more people scraping to get by with uni degrees than factory workers. I know more young factory workers with their own houses (even new houses, something ridiculously expensive here) than young uni graduates. Perhaps the uni people will make more money in time, but they've lost 4-7 years of earning money (not even counting the money spent on education), years in which housing prices have increased and years where the treath of the biological clock was relatively low.