View Full Version : Creative Assembly Dead Poles show up for the third time!!!
I'm playing the Byzantine, Early, Expert and I've killed off the Poles twice already with the game stating that the last heir has been killed.
Now, they've appeared again with 4,000 men and the game message says that an heir that escaped detection has returned with a bunch of troops.
This is plainly stupid. Either the last heir is dead or he's not. What the hell is going on? I'm sick and tired of the game flat out lying about what is going on. Then, in provinces where the Poles never had troops, all these huge armies show up. Out of no where, they show up.
I know this is supposed to be an "expert" level but did the developers make the game cheat so that they can make up for the deficiences of the AI?
Yup. Happens all the time. Happened to me when the Swiss came back about four times. Needs to be patched IMHO.
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"Everything Shiro said sounds good to me."
-Solypsist
dont let your loyalty go below 120% and it won't. (they can and will come back in enemy provinces though)
finance screen misreports loyalty so it is easy to miss it.
Gregoshi
09-11-2002, 06:53
Perhaps the "last heir has been killed" really means "last heir of age has been killed". Is there a way to view a faction's royal family like you can your own? Maybe the royal families continue and when an eliminated prince comes of age, a rebellion is soon to follow. I don't know, I'm just hypothesizing.
There is a lot of complaining about rebellions, but if reality were changed like you suggest the game be changed, many of us here would be proud citizens of the Roman Empire. People are generally nationalistic and don't take kindly to being conquered. They will return. It is only a matter of time. That is part of the headache of being the ruler of a conquering empire. Conquering is the fun part. Ruling is a pain in the butt.
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Gregoshi
A Member of Clan Doragon
Shiro:
Quote Yup. Happens all the time. Happened to me when the Swiss came back about four times. Needs to be patched IMHO.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, a big freak'in patch is in order here.
zipnar:
Quote dont let your loyalty go below 120% and it won't. (they can and will come back in enemy provinces though)
finance screen misreports loyalty so it is easy to miss it.[/QUOTE]
I haven't and they still came back. They came into random provinces. Ones they never controlled in the game.
Gregoshi:
Quote Perhaps the "last heir has been killed" really means "last heir of age has been killed".[/QUOTE]
From what I read it said that everyone has been wiped out and they ain't coming back. But they do inspite of the fact it said they aren't coming back.
Quote Is there a way to view a faction's royal family like you can your own?[/QUOTE]
I wish.
Quote Maybe the royal families continue and when an eliminated prince comes of age, a rebellion is soon to follow. I don't know, I'm just hypothesizing.[/QUOTE]
That's fine but there should be some logic to what's going on here. Plus, I'm trying to make peace with them and they just keep attacking. I haven't been able to make peace with someone for over 50 years. And the Sicilians have been at war with me for almost 200 years despite me trying to make peace with them for almost every turn.
Quote There is a lot of complaining about rebellions, but if reality were changed like you suggest the game be changed, many of us here would be proud citizens of the Roman Empire.[/QUOTE]
The Roman Empire collapsed in the West for a number of reasons, not just rebellions. But even so, I have nothing against rebellions. But I do have a problem with supposed dead families raising huge armies, showing up in provinces where I have spies, great loyalty, and peace for many years. It's utterly idiotic and it's just not fun.
I've been playing the game just so I can finish the scenario, not for fun anymore.
Actually reaccuring heirs was fairly common in Europe. They didn't come back with large armies though.
I just wish the game would actually keep track of the underage heirs when the faction is elimiated that way after 75 or so years they are all dead and the threat is gone.
The main reason they're there is to make the game more challenging. If you didnt have some strong rebellions the game would be a walk in the park. Personally, Id rather have a game thats tough to win than one thats cake. Rebellions are a good bit stronger than it makes sense for them to be sometimes, but if they didnt you'd just crush them- as it is rebels really dont put up much of a fight anyhow once confronted.
As to the faction re-emergence, the "heir" could be anything from a son that was too young previously to a general of royal blood- however distant. Anyone who can loosely associate himself with the royal line and promise people a return of the 'good ole days' is likely to be able to draw some supporters. Only occasionally, these types of things are unavoidable though- almost always there are some contributing factors that can help lead to re-emergences. These have all been listed many times in the many other threads complaining of the same problems and Im not going to get into it again here.
Lord Romulous
09-11-2002, 09:26
Yeap Agree Xiahou
I like the reapearing heirs. i dont know if if im ever gonna win on expert but all these challanges sure make it interesting
OK, I killed the Germans off again and here is the message I get every time I kill off a faction yet it comes back again anyway:
The Holy Roman Emperor has been captured and executed. He has no heirs and his forces have degenerated into minor factions. They no longer present and real threat.
When a person has no heirs, it means he has no heirs. What the hell is the game doing creating these magical heirs out of thin air?!!
dude the king's cousin's roomate got away and now hes back, and hes pissed. deal with it.
Quote Anyone who can loosely associate himself with the royal line and promise people a return of the 'good ole days' is likely to be able to draw some supporters.[/QUOTE]
I think that's fair enough but when taxes are low, loyalty is high, and there is peace in the land, how do 5 provinces all of a sudden give a magical heir 5,000 men and a limitless bank account? Something is kooky here.
Warmaker
09-11-2002, 12:53
Another thing besides these "Faction Comebacks Out of the Blue," is the so called "Popular Rebellion." I know it's easy to crush, but how in the hell does the population that you've conquered 200 years ago who now have 200% loyalty, fully adopted your religion, and have like 0% zeal, and lastly VERY LOW taxes, all the sudden raise a popular rebellion?
I can understand rebellions popping up due to bad planning and negligence, but making a rebellion pop up just for the sake of doing so is stupid. Make it an option for the game setting before starting a campaign is my suggestion instead of the now classical "The Turks have returned for the seventh time now and are serious about overthrowing your sprawling empire! No, really, I'm serious! They really did have more heirs and trained a huge, highly professional, well-equipped army, and very expensive army from under your own nose!"
What gets me is that this new army was so much better than anything they've fielded when they actually had an empire.
The thing that really bugs me the most is when they appear where they never were.
I was playing HRE when the French reappered. I had not once even attacked the french(wiped out by brits) and hadn't ever lost control of any of my homelands. but for some reason they had a supporting rebellion in Brandenburg(which borders poland.
Faction re-spawning happens a bit too often - imo the difficulty could be raised a bit in other areas (civil war doesn't happen often enough as loyalty is too easy to build up via Steward and Builder virtues). On top of that, the other factions don't really seem too aggressive or interested in empire-building, so coming under heavy assault (invasion of multiple provinces) just never happens, whereas the human player finds it easy to conquer territory. This is why faction re-spawns are needed, but they are a slightly unsatisfying way of achieving game balance http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif
i like faction respawns, it adds a challenge.
although i do agree with Rob that more civil wars would be better... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
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=MizuDoc Otomo=
eat cold steel
09-11-2002, 15:35
Alright I feel I have to make a reply here.
First of all the Papist is special, they will always come back. HRE is special, any general can take over once a king dies with no heir, but they do need proper "undetected heir" to re-emerge.
Shift key is a bug, it only updates every time you open the region information parchment.
When the game says, he has no heir, that mean indeed mean no heir of age. Have you guys not lost the game because you have a son yet he is not old enough, this is what is happening to the AI.
The game do keep track of all the royal family, even eliminated ones. If any of the underage heir comes of age, there is a chance of them coming back until they becomes too old (that means between 19 and 59.) When they re-emerge, they'll start producing heirs if they don't have some already. Anyone with half a brain will make sure their family line is secure before they try to take on the rest of Europe in a rebellion. That means you have to keep their faction down for 60 years or so before their royal line will die out properly. If they re-emerge then you'll have more underage heir in exile.
When they re-emerge, they ONLY come back in regions where they previously held before, even for as short as one turn. Re-emergence only ever happens along side a regular rebellion. Once the game decided a rebellion should happen, it checks to see if there are factions are waiting to return, and fires off a re-emergence if there is, else it'll be a peasant revolt. This 120% loyalty thing decide if any other region will join in a re-emergence. What this mean is if ANYONE have a region that is below 100% which triggers a rebellion, and that rebellion is a faction re-emerge, then any region which was once held by the dead faction with below 120% could also end up with loyalist troops.
The sizes of the troops is large because we want them to actually stay on the map for more than one turn, and play a further part in the game. We don't want to have a "faction re-emerged" parchment followed by "faction eliminated" parchment. From the sound of "I've killed faction such and such for the 50th time..." those troop are not anywhere near strong enough.
As for all the other post about "200% loyalty and still get revolt" Civil wars are not the same as rebellion, bandits are not the same as rebellion. These two have nothing to do with the loyalty of the region. When you look at a region and it says 200% loyal, that means it is 200% loyal now, lots of things can change after you pressed the end year button, and chances are it will not be 200% later after battles and new incoming spies and such had their effect. Taking a region could increase the level of unrest due to empire size, losing a region could lead to lower influence of your king, any battle will mean you have less troops than before. Rebellions also spreads, so if there is just one disloyal region, any neighbouring regions will take a hit on their loyalty and their neighbours will take a hit and so on.
I hope this clears things up a bit.
Thanks for clearing that up, that's the impression i had on how it all worked.
Like you say, maybe the re-emerging factions aren't tough enough as i've never seen one manage to stay on the map for any great length of time. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
anyways, i think this feature is excellent and, if anything, think it could be made a little tougher. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
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=MizuDoc Otomo=
Yeah seriously, thats how I had it worked out in my mind from the start. Obviously you're never happy about having large armies crop up in your provinces but, you gotta take the good with the bad. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
I've always liked the re emerging factions, but always felt they weren't quite strong enough too.
Is there any chance they can start with pre exisiting alliances, perhaps forged during the young kings exile? Or even give refuge formally to an escaping heir and finance his re emergence at a later date?
So what it all boils down to is that the developers use this re-emergence feature to help deal with the weakness in the AI's ability to plot and war. Disturbing but understandable.
I still wish the damn Poles would stay dead. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif
NO, they use it as a way to spice up the game and add an element of randomness. Otherwise it might be all too predictable like STW.
Remember the other AI factions also suffer these, not just the human player. Read the various posts from the developers on how to prevent these.... fingers crossed, i've never had one of these yet! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
[This message has been edited by +DOC+ (edited 09-12-2002).]
Soapyfrog
09-12-2002, 22:56
If you don't like faction re-emergence, then avoid killing off factions 100%. marginalize them into one province, raid them to destroy their tech, and then make peace. Every so often, raid them to keep their tech down.
Screening one province is much better than having massive high tech armies popping up in previously loyal and subjugated territory...
Eat Cold Steel, any chance we could have a new option in the configuration screen for turning off respawning factions? That way those of us who don't want to deal with respawning factions can wuss out and turn them off http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif Obviously the Pope would be a special case, but for the rest of the factions it'd be nice to have that option.
Hi,
Well, marginalizing a faction and making peace is all well and good, but they never seem to want to make peace. I've been at war with the Sicilians for something like 2 decades and they still don't want peace, despite the fact that they:
A. Can't do anything to me because I have command of the seas and we share no land borders.
B. Have proposed peace every single turn, unless I forgot.
C. Could inflict serious and permanent injury to their persons and property if the darn Pope (with whom We are allied to!) hadn't asked us to leave off after we sank 3 of their ships.
D. I have assassinated 2-3 kings and they're down to an 18- (now 21) year old. Hey, if trying to kill him hurts peace, it'd be nice to know that. Heck, it'd be nice to know what does and does NOT help diplomacy in general and have some feedback so we'd have some idea of what we're doing.)
At least I'm getting some satisfaction over this. The enormous Egyptian Empire (which has this huge collection of c12 full stacks of units moving together) declared Jihad on Greece. Hahahahahaha.
BTW, is it just me or would others like to see some sort of general report each turn on who has declared war on who, what provinces were taken/lost, rebellions, etc.? I really love that stuff from the Europa Universalis series.
Personally, I don't care about the super revolts, as long as I'm given good information by the game on how my people are doing so that I can take steps to avoid them, if I can. (Though seeing revolters spawn with these advanced-tech armies is a bit disturbing.)
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