So... Has anybody succeeded as Hayasdan yet?

[Dayve]

Warning: Assload of text below. If you don't want to know the story just skip to the very last paragraph. :2thumbsup:

I was reading a few old threads here yesterday and i saw a lot of people saying that the Hayasdan were all but impossible, which is also what the faction description for them says, so i decided to give them a try since i've been rolling over anything that comes my way as the Romani and it gets boring after a few days.

The first time i started the campaign i took the rebel city west of the capital, built a type 4 government, took all my units and began the march to the one north of the capital just across the river. I was beaten by the rebel garrison, badly... I should have used my 2-star faction heir but instead i used a 0-star noobcake.

At this point i was over -1000 in debt and couldn't do much, so i began tapping 'End turn' until i had some money to do something. After i had done this 3 times, to my surprise the rebels from the city to the north laid siege to and took the city to the west which i had taken earlier. They left 1 single unit defending the town to the north so i took my faction heir and 1 unit i had been able to create and stole it, but i was no better off because i was back in debt and couldn't even repair the walls i had damaged to get into the city in the first place. This was when the grey death laid siege to my capital with half a stack of troops.

I had an idea. I took my faction heir from the town to the north, raised everything i could in both towns and decided to hire some mercenaries and migrate to the town east of the capital. I had 7 grand to hire mercenaries and could afford only two units of medium infantry and some archers, so i took them and moved on. Two turns later i was -5000 in debt. When i arrived at the city to the east, what did i see? The grey death were laying siege to it with another half stack of units. I sighed, went into the kitchen to splash some cold water on my face and sat in disbelief for about 5 minutes before quitting the campaign.

I've only ever lost a campaign once before this... It was playing as Baktria in an earlier build of EB. My starting army was ambushed by rebel horse-archers and destroyed, then another rebel army laid siege to my only city and i quit, so losing this campaign was a big deal for me.

I tried to start again just now and had some initial success taking both the city to the north and west and even the one to the east, but as soon as i took it the grey death laid siege with half a stack which included heavy Persian spearmen and misthophoroi phalangitai, so all 4 family members were wasted along with the single unit of half-dead spearmen i had, including my now 3-star faction heir... Then that half stack of troops laid siege to my capital and, -3000 in debt, i quit.

You guys weren't joking when you said it was all but impossible. I can see it COULD be done, but i don't think i'll be trying again for some time. Has anybody here managed to reach that point with the Hai where you can deal with anything you come up against, even if their empire is 10x the size of yours?

[Landwalker]

You guys weren't joking when you said it was all but impossible. I can see it COULD be done, but i don't think i'll be trying again for some time. Has anybody here managed to reach that point with the Hai where you can deal with anything you come up against, even if their empire is 10x the size of yours?

I don't know if I would say I reached the point where I could deal with anything, but I did reach the point where I felt like I was in a relatively stable position. Right off the bat, I captured Mvkhsrrsakhtya or whatever that town is north of Armavir, then immediately went after Kotais (to the west) as well. I had used my starting funds to build roads in Armavir and then train two archers and two cavalry javelineers, which assisted me in my "conquests". After Kotais, I took a serious gamble and headed for the small settlement on the Caspian Sea.

This is basically where my whole campaign could have easily fallen apart, and the fact that it didn't was sheer luck. As my army was besieging the eastern town, the Seleucids sent a dinky halfish-stack up through the mountains towards Armavir. As my main army captured its third settlement, I had a diplomat down by Antioch offering the Seleucids a deal every single turn. Of course, since I had no money, all I could offer them was Map Information and Military Assistance vs. _______. So, every turn, the AS got my worthless maps and, evidently less worthless, military aid against one faction. Evidently, this was sufficient bribery to prevent them from actually attacking, instead milling around long enough for my army to get back to Armavir and, eventually, intimidate the AS stack into leaving. By the time the AS was gone, I was sworn to offer military aid against the Ptolemies, the Saba, the Saka Rauka, Carthage, Macedonia, and potentially Baktria and Pahlava. Whatever it was, it was enough, and they left.

At this point I sent my spy to "guard" one approach to Armavir, in the form of simply standing on a bridge so as to alert me to any AS forays, and my army to guard the other. This persisted for several years while I climbed out of debt and began building mines in my settlements. Once all the mines were up and running and the settlements were more developed, I was able to capture the Pokr-Hoyk territory and add it to my holdings, again having to send my army to a constricted pass to intimidate the AS away. Eventually, it was in the 250s BC and the AS still hadn't outright attacked me, I had five settlements, all reasonably stable, a steady income, and the ability to train units (or hire mercenaries) as much as necessary. Could I have handled a full-blown AS/Sauromatae two-front invasion? Doubtful. But I was certainly in the position to defend my lands adequately enough.

Of course, that's when I stopped the campaign to take up a Lusotannan one. ~;)

Cheers.

[Watchman]

I dunno, I got off to a nice start by immediately blitzing Mtskheta (the reb town immediately to the north of Armavir) and then proceeding to the Black Sea coast. That huge stack of skirmishers and archers that hangs around whatwasitcalled, Trebizond or somesuch, that Greek-ish town in Pontos Paralios anyway, isn't a problem once it wanders into the town and has to try sallying in the face of spearmen and heavy FM bodyguard cav...

Between the added taxpayer base and troop attrition, that put the budget on the positive pretty soon. That one valley settlement SW of Armavir is similarly easy pickings actually, as long as you bring along enough manpower to see off the loose reb stack in the province. Although that one sometimes apparently goes pick a fight with the Seleukids or Pontics instead.

And stay the fig away from type 4 govs, the budget can't handle the merc-general wages.

Granted, this campaign was *greatly* faciliated by the willingess of Pontos to keep to themselves and the Seleucids being much too busy elsewhere to come bother me... well, before around the point their Levant front was finally collapsing in the face of dogged Ptolemaic aggression, the Baktrians were about to start disputing the ownership of Central Asia, and I was like ten turns away from qualifying for the Pan-Caucasus Reform...
Didn't take too much effort to convince their belated invasion to go somewhere else, an odd Thorakitai Agema unit in the stack or no. Now I'm actually starting to worry more about the Ptolies and the Baktrians who're already making moves against the Seleucid provinces around the Caspian...

[Dayve]

Hmm, i hadn't thought of offering them assistance... (or bullpooping them into thinking i would give them assistance) i may try this. See, i can pull off some amazing victories due to the stupidity of the battle-AI, but one needs at least 3 units of spearmen to hold most of their army in place while you lure their most powerful units into traps, and by the time the Seleukids attack i just don't have those units left or the money to train them.

I'm going to try it your way later.

[dominique]

I'll give a try tonight!

:laugh4:

Sincerely, I sympathise, I was roughed out from my Arverni game recently. and I still resent it. I was doing good, I had conquered the Aedui except for Mediolanum, i owned Massalia and Emphorion and I was allied to the Romani and Qarthadasti. All was going great when... The perfid poeni backstabbed me, followed by the Romani.

Ok, I said to myself, I can pull it off... Then a stack of Sweboz appears at my northern frontier and BANG. The trumpet sounded the traitor's charge.

I had to fight 5 stacks with only 2 on three fronts. No hard maths there.

I still wonder what I have done wrong. It was one of my best starts ever. Good nice victories, good RP, good diplo, nice empire building. Then bang. Finito la revolution.

:wall:

I'm still unable to think to play a gallic faction.

I'll try Hayasdan to see.

[Dayve]

I'll give a try tonight!

:laugh4:

Sincerely, I sympathise, I was roughed out from my Arverni game recently. and I still resent it. I was doing good, I had conquered the Aedui except for Mediolanum, i owned Massalia and Emphorion and I was allied to the Romani and Qarthadasti. All was going great when... The perfid poeni backstabbed me, followed by the Romani.

Ok, I said to myself, I can pull it off... Then a stack of Sweboz appears at my northern frontier and BANG. The trumpet sounded the traitor's charge.

I had to fight 5 stacks with only 2 on three fronts. No hard maths there.

I still wonder what I have done wrong. It was one of my best starts ever. Good nice victories, good RP, good diplo, nice empire building. Then bang. Finito la revolution.

:wall:

I'm still unable to think to play a gallic faction.

I'll try Hayasdan to see.

Trust me, Hayasdan are 100x more difficult than Averni or Aediu. When playing as those guys you need to leave a big buffer of rebel cities between you and everybody else, especially the Sweboz. Just pound the Aediu enough so that they can still send armies your way but have no chance of succeeding anywhere. In the meantime you build up roads and farms and at least one expensive barracks until you reach a point where the money is coming in hard and you can build naked madmen or something tough and become capable of fighting even a 3-front war.

[Sarcasm]

I dunno, I got off to a nice start by immediately blitzing Mtskheta (the reb town immediately to the north of Armavir) and then proceeding to the Black Sea coast. That huge stack of skirmishers and archers that hangs around whatwasitcalled, Trebizond or somesuch, that Greek-ish town in Pontos Paralios anyway, isn't a problem once it wanders into the town and has to try sallying in the face of spearmen and heavy FM bodyguard cav...

Between the added taxpayer base and troop attrition, that put the budget on the positive pretty soon. That one valley settlement SW of Armavir is similarly easy pickings actually, as long as you bring along enough manpower to see off the loose reb stack in the province. Although that one sometimes apparently goes pick a fight with the Seleukids or Pontics instead.

And stay the fig away from type 4 govs, the budget can't handle the merc-general wages.

Granted, this campaign was *greatly* faciliated by the willingess of Pontos to keep to themselves and the Seleucids being much too busy elsewhere to come bother me... well, before around the point their Levant front was finally collapsing in the face of dogged Ptolemaic aggression, the Baktrians were about to start disputing the ownership of Central Asia, and I was like ten turns away from qualifying for the Pan-Caucasus Reform...
Didn't take too much effort to convince their belated invasion to go somewhere else, an odd Thorakitai Agema unit in the stack or no. Now I'm actually starting to worry more about the Ptolies and the Baktrians who're already making moves against the Seleucid provinces around the Caspian...

Sounds like it's time to pull a 'Tigranes' and help out the Seleukids.

[Watchman]

Sounds like it's time to pull a 'Tigranes' and help out the Seleukids.Quite. You know that city right south of Armavir, past the lake, whateveritsnamenowwas ? The Ptollies besieged it back when I was at war with the Seleukids and I sent an army to the vicinity with an eye on taking the place after the garrison saw off the Ptoly army; the buggers went and captured it in one go though, so I instead went and raided Seleukid Mesopotamia. Now that the Seles are kinda on the ropes and the Ptolies well on their way to mutating into Yellow Death though, I figure it's time to "cross the Rubicon" (or Tigris/Euphrates as the case is) and give them a major problem in their rather exposed northern flank... that province's one of the post-reform Homeland regions anyway and creates a buffer for Armavir, so it's pretty much win-win all the way.
:2thumbsup:
Depending a bit on how good those Kappadokian axemen and Eastern medium cav actually are at eating Galatikoi and Thorakitai alive in flanking moves mind you. But potentially I may be able to raid all the way down to Antiokia to nuke the MICs there...
:charge:

[Jurdagat]

My Hayasdan campaign turned out great, but it's only on H campaign difficulty.
Guess that makes it a bit easier.
At least it's something you can try if VH turns out to be to much to handle. :)

To tired to add anything serious at the moment, but will probably edit this later.

[antisocialmunky]

I thought the Parthian start was fairly insane but then I decided to pick the Hai up and all I can say is... wow. However, I did learn two useful things from my Parthian Campaign to help me with this:

A. Get friendly with all factions that are neutral or at a state of war with you. Since the diplomacy AI starts off every one as essentiall neutral, the factions you are at war with will be friendly with you if you get to them before a full stack of death shows up.

This is especially useful with the nomads as they usually will side with you over the AS and they have a tendency of sending armies of noble cavalry after you which you will be hard pressed to kill with your limited Hai troop selections. Caucasion Spearmen and Archers are good performance for the price but good luck beating horse archers and Catanks with them. Atleast with the Parthians you could afford to run around with two armies of a few HA and body guards to defend your whole country.

In the case of Hai, you should send your diplomat up north and secure a peace treaty and eventually an alliance with the Sarmatians(you don't have to take any of their lands to win!). As long as you're relatively strong(IE own greater Armenia) they'll leave you alone.

B. When you see a diplomat trying to bribe your town, that is a precursor for war. You'll get about 2-3 years before the Grey stacks start migrating north so PREPARE! While the AS usually send smallish stacks, sometimes they'll send a full stack and then you're basically lost.

[Karo]

Quite. You know that city right south of Armavir, past the lake, whateveritsnamenowwas ? The Ptollies besieged it back when I was at war with the Seleukids and I sent an army to the vicinity with an eye on taking the place after the garrison saw off the Ptoly army; the buggers went and captured it in one go though, so I instead went and raided Seleukid Mesopotamia. Now that the Seles are kinda on the ropes and the Ptolies well on their way to mutating into Yellow Death though, I figure it's time to "cross the Rubicon" (or Tigris/Euphrates as the case is) and give them a major problem in their rather exposed northern flank... that province's one of the post-reform Homeland regions anyway and creates a buffer for Armavir, so it's pretty much win-win all the way.
:2thumbsup:
Depending a bit on how good those Kappadokian axemen and Eastern medium cav actually are at eating Galatikoi and Thorakitai alive in flanking moves mind you. But potentially I may be able to raid all the way down to Antiokia to nuke the MICs there...
:charge:

Watchman your going to have a hard time fighting those guys, I hate fighting against those ptollies. Their units are much harder to kill than the Selceudics. And the secret to a succesful Hay campaign is alot of luck and attacking the enemy when they are weak and not ready for an attack. Fight them on your terms and try to make sure your on the offincef. Fught in their lands. Because the AI will send the armies to protect the city instead going after your cities.

[Watchman]

Yeah, I know well enough to bank on major numerical superiority, ample use of missile troops and mobility and to expect serious casualties against those guys (on the plus side the Hai units tend towards both cheap, quick and numerous...). Still, the Ptolies have northern Mesopotamia rather sparse of armies and are a bit preoccupied with Seleucid holdouts around Baylon and Seleukeia...

And of course active use of spies and assasins to sabotage the barracks wont to turn out something unpleasant in the vicinity of the operation area ought to kind of limit the amount of nastiness they'll be able to divert against me. James Bond FTW. :beam:

[Sarkiss]

Watchman your going to have a hard time fighting those guys, I hate fighting against those ptollies. Their units are much harder to kill than the Selceudics. And the secret to a succesful Hay campaign is alot of luck and attacking the enemy when they are weak and not ready for an attack. Fight them on your terms and try to make sure your on the offincef. Fught in their lands. Because the AI will send the armies to protect the city instead going after your cities.
ill double that.
and you guys should really stop playing Hai on VH, unless you enjoy fighting multiple stacks every turn of course:laugh4:
and that hint on diplomats coming first is something i noticed ages ago, back in vanilla. so watch out for the diplomats!:yes:
here is my save. im in 219 BC and not as big as you'd be with the easier faction but still a formidable kingdom.
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=U9425ZRL

another hint is to capture Karthiokerta and build epic walls. keep 5, 6 units of long range missile - preferably slingers plus some melle, a good FM, and you can sally forth and easily destroy any besieging army.
and forget about client rulers, they'll suck your treasury dry!

[Watchman]

Personally, I stopped playing VH campaigns a fair while ago already. The AI is rabid enough as is.

[dominique]

Trust me, Hayasdan are 100x more difficult than Averni or Aediu. When playing as those guys you need to leave a big buffer of rebel cities between you and everybody else, especially the Sweboz. Just pound the Aediu enough so that they can still send armies your way but have no chance of succeeding anywhere. In the meantime you build up roads and farms and at least one expensive barracks until you reach a point where the money is coming in hard and you can build naked madmen or something tough and become capable of fighting even a 3-front war.


I KNOW! I've won the Getai, the Makedonian, and approx 1 year away from winning the Roman. Arverni should have been easy. I've done everything you described. On of my army had 3 gaesetai and 3 Batacorii. It should have been Ok. It didn't. I was stuck in a maneuvering campaign in northern Italy, I've razed Segesta and Arriminum, but I just couldn't pull it back since it was stopping 2 stacks. The other stack was trying to control the Carthaginians and the Sweboz but running around like crazy around Gaul. My huge problem wasn't the battles, I won them. I had no revenue since my trade went down. My problem was the churn. I was losing 100 guys per battle, with no cash to replenish. I've beat the Cartaginians good, I've made the Romans cry, but the Sweboz put their spear between my ribs real good.

I think I should have left Mediolanum alone. Everything went crashing down after I sent my army there...

Anyway, I think I've got the right stuff to make an armenian empire... I'll give it a try. If i'm a buffoon, I'll make you laugh with my pathetics attempts at empire building. :juggle2:

[Sarkiss]

Personally, I stopped playing VH campaigns a fair while ago already. The AI is rabid enough as is.
indeed. on H you get far more reasonable, realistic development.:yes:

[Elminster12]

Yeah, I play on H/M myself. The AI seems a little more reasonable. As for the Hai, part of your fortunes really do rely on Parthia and the Ptolies. If they really lay into the Seleukids, you'll be in great shape as the settlements the AS would normally use to send soldiers at you get tied up defending themselves. IMO, they are now harder than Pontos, because all Pontos needs for a boost is for the Ptolies to bog down AS. The Hai need two factions to step up to the plate for best affect.

That said, it's taken me a lot of trial and error to get to a point where I can comfortably get Pontos off and running, and I imagine the same is true for the Hai.

[LorDBulA]

I am playing Hayasadan campagne now and its going very well.
I have 9 settlements including Seleukia and Babylon and I am kicking Seleukids bottom.
I play on VH/M difficutly and this was wise choice because on my usual VH/H setting it would be extremely difficult.

[Dayve]

Anyway, I think I've got the right stuff to make an armenian empire... I'll give it a try. If i'm a buffoon, I'll make you laugh with my pathetics attempts at empire building. :juggle2:

Sounds good. My record was 4 cities with them, then the grey death raped a city with my 4 generals (all with silver chevrons) who were holding my 'kingdom' together. After that all i could muster were raw spearmen with no chevrons or armour upgrades and a general who couldn't run a hotdog stand, let alone an army... If 4 units of spearmen and 1 unit of archers can be called an army. :laugh4:

[Watchman]

Stone walls are your friend.

[Dayve]

Stone walls are your friend.

So is the money it costs to build them...

[dominique]

Ok, I've checked what I need to get through that one.

All you need is love Ta-ra-na-na
All you need is love Ta-ra-na-na
Love is all you need!

I will explain my point.

I will need diplomats to spread the love.
So the Seleukids don't whack me fast.

And
I will need my princes to love their wives dearly, with some herbalist help
So I get as much generals as possible.

I think the alpha and omega of the early Hayasdan armies are the general bodyguards. The infantry's only role is to tire the ennemy when they hack the poor buggers to pieces...

[Watchman]

So is the money it costs to build them...
Given how much of a "force multiplier" they are for those cheap-ass Caucasian levies you're going to have to use for garrison duty anyway, I'd say that 3200 and six turns was a worthwhile enough investement. Plus at least the H campaign AI seems to regard them as something of a deterrent.

[Watchman]

I think the alpha and omega of the early Hayasdan armies are the general bodyguards. The infantry's only role is to tire the ennemy when they hack the poor buggers to pieces...The Early Persian Bodyguards have armour value something like 6 higher than they should mind you, but even with that scaled down to a less credibility-straining 17 you're fairly correct. Which is IMHO a quite accurate depiction of the sort of poor-ass feudal/tribal warring the beginning of any Hai campaign consists of, where the armies are made of crappy levies and the decisive element (as well as around the only properly armed and trained soldiers) is the personal guards of high potentates.

That said, even those levy spearmen tend to put up enough of a fight that I always preferred shooting them to bits and engaging with crappy levy spearmen of my own... not as painful that way. They can take down a lot of horsies before their numbers drop to the breaking point after all.

[jhhowell]

Has anyone else run into the problem of the Pan-Caucasus homeland/expansion markers spamming out every turn once you take Sophene (the province with Karkakiotherta or however you spell it)? I haven't had time to play in a while, but as of my last save every province in the region except the capital (I own the entire Pan-Caucasus region, plus Mazaka) had the starting "Alliance/3" marker and three of the post-reform (Homeland/1 or Expansion/2, as appropriate) markers. Not sure what that's about, but I've got seven turns until the Sophene homeland govt. finishes and would rather not have ~10 markers in every province... Assuming the finished govt. would stop the spamming somehow (the second and third markers showed up not long after taking the province, so I'm just guessing that has something to do with it).

As for the original topic, as others have said if you play on VH/M you deserve what you get. At saner settings Hai is a pretty fun faction, though this being RTW everyone will still attack you eventually (I got hit by AS and Pontus in the 250s). Like the steppe factions, Hai can defend really well. Often the horse archers can drive off poorly planned sieges inflicting several hundred casualties for no losses at all. Mines will allow plenty of mercenary recruits, too, preserving your population base.

Bodyguards rock, but don't forget the archers (both horse and foot). You won't see armor worth mentioning until the Chalkaspidai and Thorakitai come visiting, and those rarely appear in any numbers. Archers are murder against the vast majority of your early foes. Defending Sophene from attacks from the south is especially fun, with that absurd slope helping you out!

[Karo]

the marker thing I got the same problem her, but it doesn't affect the game so I don't give it that much attention.

[Foot]

the marker thing I got the same problem her, but it doesn't affect the game so I don't give it that much attention.

It bewilders me as to how this is happening, so instead of thinking through it logically I'm just going to blitz it with the following code.

Open the EBBS.txt up (found in eb/data/scripts/show_me)

Search for "2e" till you get the the Pan-Caucasus Script.

Find the following code (its right at the top of this section)


;; Check if 1st Lvl PCER already reached, if true set counter to 1.
monitor_event SettlementTurnEnd SettlementName Armavir
and I_LocalFaction romans_scipii
and I_CompareCounter Caucasus_Reform = 0
and SettlementBuildingExists = homeland

set_counter Caucasus_Reform 1

end_monitor

;; Check if 2nd Lvl PCER already reached, if true set counter to 2.
monitor_event SettlementTurnEnd SettlementName Karkathiokerta
and I_LocalFaction romans_scipii
and SettlementBuildingExists = homeland
and I_CompareCounter Caucasus_Reform = 1

set_counter Caucasus_Reform 2

end_monitor


Replace all of it with the following:


; Check if 1st Lvl PCER already reached, if true set counter to 1.
monitor_event SettlementTurnEnd SettlementName Armavir
and I_LocalFaction romans_scipii
and I_CompareCounter Caucasus_Reform = 0
and SettlementBuildingExists = homeland

set_counter Caucasus_Reform 1

end_monitor

;; Check if 2nd Lvl PCER already reached, if true set counter to 2.
monitor_event SettlementTurnEnd SettlementName Karkathiokerta
and I_LocalFaction romans_scipii
and SettlementBuildingExists = homeland
and I_CompareCounter Caucasus_Reform = 1

set_counter Caucasus_Reform 2

end_monitor

;; Check if 1st Lvl PCER already reached, if true set counter to 1.
monitor_event SettlementTurnStart SettlementName Armavir
and I_LocalFaction romans_scipii
and I_CompareCounter Caucasus_Reform = 0
and SettlementBuildingExists = homeland

set_counter Caucasus_Reform 1

end_monitor

;; Check if 2nd Lvl PCER already reached, if true set counter to 2.
monitor_event SettlementTurnStart SettlementName Karkathiokerta
and I_LocalFaction romans_scipii
and SettlementBuildingExists = homeland
and I_CompareCounter Caucasus_Reform = 1

set_counter Caucasus_Reform 2

end_monitor


Its savegame compatible so start up a game play a turn and see if Ani-Kamah gains an expansion resource.

Foot

[Karo]

Foot it doesn't it's still the Homeland resource, but did stop markers to multiply further it's now on 9 and it stopt there.

[dominique]

Anyway, I think I've got the right stuff to make an armenian empire... I'll give it a try. If i'm a buffoon, I'll make you laugh with my pathetics attempts at empire building. :juggle2:


Ok, I've started it.

I've looked around the map, checked the financial report, concluded that I needed more than some hillbilly villages to survive.

I went east.

Phraaspa.

A large town.

Bingo!

I'm still reeling in debt (-15000!), but I've now a positive balance.

Oh man, it's a stressing game that one. The "damocles over your head" feeling is incredible. You look at your objectives, you look at your ennemies (how will I beat a 4-5 phalanx army is still a wonder!) and you know you don't have what it needs to do it, unless the gods want it so... Sweaty palms and curses garanteed.

:laugh4:

[Sarkiss]

Ok, I've started it.

I've looked around the map, checked the financial report, concluded that I needed more than some hillbilly villages to survive.

I went east.

Phraaspa.

A large town.

Bingo!

I'm still reeling in debt (-15000!), but I've now a positive balance.

Oh man, it's a stressing game that one. The "damocles over your head" feeling is incredible. You look at your objectives, you look at your ennemies (how will I beat a 4-5 phalanx army is still a wonder!) and you know you don't have what it needs to do it, unless the gods want it so... Sweaty palms and curses garanteed.

:laugh4:
:laugh4:
have fun

[MiniMe]

In my KH campaign AI is very successful as Hayasdan.
And: I must admit they give me much more trouble than Grey death, Yellow thieves, White pacifists and Red weaklings (yep, I'm that able diplomat and a good neighbor).
And: AI is surprisingly good in the battlefield with these armenian units. He is:
1. wiping out my cretan snipers first;
2. outflanks me;
3. shoots my armoured boyz in the back;
4. charges and withdraw charges and withdraw charges and withdraw till my boyz are dead dead dead.

In fact I'm so impressed of AI Hayasdan tactics that when I see Hayasdan late bodyguard unit on the battlefield I turn computer off and run to bedroom for shelter.

But I don't hate them. I respect them. It is Yellow thieves whom I hate, Yellow thieves who bought off my whole Turkey in less than four years without a single fight with my glorious epileptic infantry.
One fine day Alexandria will burn burn burn. Burarum.
Spartans don't read, they don't need to read, they are happy with comixes.

[Dayve]

They're doing good on your game because they're getting 35k a turn at the start for only having a crappy village.

[MiniMe]

They're doing good on your game because they're getting 35k a turn at the start for only having a crappy village.
True. However money bonuses did not help much Baktria, Pahlava, and Averni. They are no more and not because of me.

Besides in my country armenians have a reputation as able businessmen so... In their case I find 35k a turn at the start for only having a crappy village quite realistic.

[Landwalker]

True. However money bonuses did not help much Baktria, Pahlava, and Averni. They are no more and not because of me.

Besides in my country armenians have a reputation as able businessmen so... In their case I find 35k a turn at the start for only having a crappy village quite realistic.

Because if they have that reputation now, it must have also been true twenty-three hundred years ago.

Cheers.

[Sarkiss]

True. However money bonuses did not help much Baktria, Pahlava, and Averni. They are no more and not because of me.

Besides in my country armenians have a reputation as able businessmen so... In their case I find 35k a turn at the start for only having a crappy village quite realistic.
:laugh4: spasibo za kompliment
im rather impressed hearing of such smart AI battle behavior. do you use any formation add ons? sounds like you have a lot of fun. in my Carthaginian campaign the most you can get out of AI is an attempt to smash my center trough in a straight forward attack

[MiniMe]

nope, I'm not DV formations fan at all, they look a bit weird to me
As per western EB hemishere battles (celts, iberia, romans and carthadastim), where phalanx, horsearcherz, strong cavalry and massarcherz are not involved, infantry and skirmishers only... I've always found them lacking style and here is a great post of Thaatu observation of western tactics

The following illustration explains my default Aedui tactics:

https://img20.imageshack.us/img20/8755/complextacticskw7.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

[Dayve]

I think i've done it! Thanks to the tips from this thread, i'm on my way up as the Hai.

On the very first turn i disbanded the slingers, javelinmen, heavy cavalry and one unit of spearmen. I took everything i had except for my faction leader and took Phraaspa. When you disband all the units i mentioned and put the capital on very high tax, you only lose 300 minai a turn rather than the 2000+ you lose if you keep the whole army and go straight for the city west of the capital.

Anyhow, i captured Phraaspa with ease, thanks to the two units of archers which butchered the enemy behind their own walls before my spearpoints even saw action. As soon as i ended the turn after taking Phraaspa i was out of debt and able to retrain and build a puppet government, leave one unit of spears behind and leave. I then took my two units of archers, two units of spearmen and 4 generals to the city north of the capital. I failed to capture it twice, each time retraining and returning for another go. On the second attempt i wiped out both units of Gregorian medium infantry to the point of not even able to be considered a unit anymore. On the third time i used my 4 cavalry units, now with at least 1 silver chevron each, to act as a steamroller and literally just trampled over every unit into the city square and took the city. After the battle all 4 family members survived, despite losing 75% and more of their bodyguards.

I've been giving the grey death illusional assistance against Eleutheroi, Ptolemies, Koinon and Saka, and 50 minai and map information each turn. It's worked, i haven't seen a single army of grey death and i'm on around turn 15.

I now have a choice to make, and i'm unsure of what to do. I could continue to expand or i could build up the 3 cities i have... I was thinking of finding a nice juicy Eleutheroi city somewhere, hiring 1 strong mercenary unit and turning to raid tactics. Capture it, exterminate, raise everything raisable and use the funds to boost my cities with new builsindgs, then abandon it on very high taxes until it revolts back.

What would you do?

[Landwalker]

I now have a choice to make, and i'm unsure of what to do. I could continue to expand or i could build up the 3 cities i have... I was thinking of finding a nice juicy Eleutheroi city somewhere, hiring 1 strong mercenary unit and turning to raid tactics. Capture it, exterminate, raise everything raisable and use the funds to boost my cities with new builsindgs, then abandon it on very high taxes until it revolts back.

What would you do?

Absolutely go capture Kotais (on the Black Sea coast, just west of Armavir and Mksvharaskravahfskva or whatever it's called. You get a coastal settlement and one with the potential for building mines, and I believe you can recruit horse archers there as well. After that, I'd say go for the Pokr-Hoyk province and then for Trapezous.

After that, it could go either way--knock out Pontos and start working your way around Asia Minor, or ally with the Ptolemaioi and dive into the AS. Going after Pontos is appealing because they're small and, usually, not too tough. However, I'd recommend trying to get a Grand Alliance going against the AS, or at least forcing them into a two-front war with you and the Ptolemies. Pontos' late-game elite units are, frankly, not that tough, so you can afford to let them build up a while longer. However, I'd recommend putting the hurt on the Seleucids before they start popping out lots of Argyaspidai and the like. A strong late-game AS is, to me, a bigger threat than a late-game Pontos.

Cheers.

[dominique]

Hey you could get that resort town on the Black Sea just south of the Caucasus (Kartli? Egrisi province on the recruiter map)

It's an homeland province and you can train Scythian horse archers there. You could build a really nice mobile raider army with bodyguards and horse archers#. If a grey stack comes, it would get it in the teeth. Eventually, you would also get some georgian kick ass infantry. Plus, you have a port where you can trade with Pontus and the other Black Sea powers when they get there (Mak, Getai).

EDIT: Posted at the same time as watchman, sorry!

[Dayve]

I'll go for the two costal towns then. The one where i can trade with Pontos and the one where i can trade with Pahlava, or Baktria if they've conquered them. :smash:

When i have a mobile army i shall break my alliance with Seleukids and ally with the Ptolies! :egypt:

[Dayve]

Screw it, i give up. I'm never playing as Hayasdan again. As soon as i loaded the game up to continue taking rebel cities the Seleukids sent a half-stack right at my capital. I defeated them and was left with no choice but to retrain and take the fight to the Seleukids with my army of 3 units of spearmen and 1 archers. Funnily enough, i took a Seleukid town just below Phraaspa, exterminated it and raised everything and had myself a lovely 30k in the bank. Great right?

No, wrong. At that point the grey bastards laid siege to my capital with another half stack. Completely undefended as i had to use all my troops to take the Seleukid city. So, i hire a mercenary army with my 30 grand and begin the march back to my home territories. By this time my capital is lost and i'm -20,000 in debt because it takes 30 turns to march from one city to another. My capital is defended by an army with over 5 units of good phalangites and the rest of the stack made up of mercenary heavy hoplites and axemen and other lovely units i just can't afford... So, 50k in debt i decide that even if i took my capital back it would take me over 40 turns to get out of debt, all the while the Seleukids would be pounding away at me, so i decided to just give up.

I am never, ever playing as the Hayasdan again, and in my next campaign i'm going to destroy the Seleukids and exterminate and raise every single city they own. Especially their capital... I'm going to exterminate it twice.

[artavazd]

Come on Dayve dont give up. You're Playing with Armenia, you have to get in with the Armenian spirit!! SURVIVE and laugh while you're at it :beam:

[Dayve]

I've calmed down now... I will try again, i'll keep trying until i'm able to effectively fight the Seleukids and rape their cities. I don't see how any amount of skill can turn the Hayasdan's horrible starting predicament around though, nothing but luck can give you the chance.

Even if you managed to take all 5 cities that everybody says you need to take, you'll need to pay for units for defense incase they are attacked from any of your neighbours, as well as keep a standing army to deal with the Seleukids when they come knocking. You can't do all that AND build up your cities at the same time because the 5 surrounding cities that are there for the taking are all crap. They make no income and are too far spaced out to defend properly... By the time your standing army reaches them to defend they've been taken and enslaved. :whip:

[Landwalker]

One thing you might consider trying:

Start the game, and do the usual conquering thing. Don't worry too much about going in debt, because every captured settlement adds to your income and detracts from your army upkeep. If you manage to grab all the settlements (personally I only consider Kotais, Mtshwhatsit, and Kabalaka to be the ones you need--I leave Phrapsa as a buffer, for what it's worth) before the AS attack you, fantastic.

When you realize the Seleucids are about to come for you (you'll know when they send a diplomat to hang out next to one of your cities), grab a spy (don't let your starting spy get killed) and have him find out which approach the Seleucids are taking--you have the geographical advantage of being in the mountains, so they have to come through narrow passes and, often, over bridges to reach you. Figure out which pass they're coming up, and bring as much army as you have (which may be very little, but bring it anyway), and just sit in their way. I recommend camping out on a river crossing, but you might prefer a mountainous position. The Seleucid army will either be intimidated into leaving without initiating hostilities, or it will attack you anyway and be a considerable tactical disadvantage (and, given the dinky crap the Seleucids throw at you initially, probably a general disadvantage as well). I've never had the Seleucids send more than one army at a time, so you'll only have to defend one pass at a time. The key point here is: Don't let the Seleucids actually reach any of your settlements. If they do, they'll attack them, and then you'll probably be boned. Find a choke point and just sit there, blocking the route in. Unless your army is miserably laughable, there's a chance they'll just stare at you for a bit, then wander off.

All the while, your settlements are slowly dragging you out of debt (in fact, disband as much of your army as you're comfortable with, so that you'll get out faster). Once you're in the black, keep saving up and build mines in every settlement you can. Then you'll be able to get started on everything else.

As you can tell, it's a long, slow process, and a certain degree of luck is certainly involved. However, scare tactics and sycophancy (offering military aid against all kinds of random people) have done a good job for me of working in unison to prevent the AS from attacking me before I'm ready, and once you're ready, you can dive right in. Best of luck.

Cheers.

[antisocialmunky]

You know, the irony is that the Caucasus are very, very productive and is very lucrative when developped. Its better than being a dirt poor Nomad up North. Even mighty Parthia starts with some really dumpy lands.

[Karo]

In kotai you can train Horse archers get a few and defend your lands with them and one general. There's nothing that the Grey dead can trow at you that you can't handle with your horse archers. And you can go with your second army in tio offensife

[artavazd]

Make sure to use the horse archers who have a spear for a second weapon, and not a little dagger. The ones with spears can mount a pretty good charge. Charge with one of them in the rear of a phalanx, and when that unit turns around charge about 3-4 units from the side the phalanx just turned its back to. In some cases you wont even need heavy cav. The steppe riders, and other horse archers which use the spear are plenty.

[Watchman]

I always make a point of, as soon as finances allow, sending a spare FM (there always being at least one idiot around that couldn't manage a settlement to save his life) to set up a watchtower at the end of each and every one of those long north-south valleys, as well as the end of Pontos Paralios that pretty much borders the Pontic heartlands; that way I'll be well forewarned if and when the neighbours start getting funny ideas. (Watchtowers are 500 a pop to build and thereafter free and eternal, amen; recruiting a spy costs 200 if you don't have any traits or ancilliaries affecting it and they pull a 100 mnai in wages each per turn, so you do the math regarding which is better for such long-term "radar station duty"...)

Personally I only ever go after Phraaspa once I've gotten decently well established around the western end of the Caucasus (around which time the Seleukids have also tended to weaken the garrison some - I tend to send a spy to hover around there to keep an eye on their progress), where the cities are clumped closely enough together that with a semi-decent road network they're easy to guard with some infantry in the cities themselves and a mobile reserve stationed in Armavir and/or Kotais. Kabalaka, that dinky little town up by the Caspian, and Phraaspa are isolated enough to require decent garrisons of their own (although in my game the Sauromatae were never interested in even trying at the former); indeed, as the latter is in every respect in the enthralling positions of staring down into the maw of the Grey Giant, it basically requires the permanent presence of a full army and an upgrade to stone walls ASAP. On the plus side it'll also be your forward-base jumping-off point for starting to gnaw your way down towards Persis, and the only approach paths with roads both cross the river at some point...

[Leão magno]

As for my campaing I ook the north f capital city withoutdisbanding, then went to Kotais, money was ok by then, then I went in Pontos direction which proved to be a mistake, those pigs betrayed me and defeated my only army!!! back to the blue prints

[Landwalker]

As for my campaing I ook the north f capital city withoutdisbanding, then went to Kotais, money was ok by then, then I went in Pontos direction which proved to be a mistake, those pigs betrayed me and defeated my only army!!! back to the blue prints

Technically, if you marched against them and they attacked you, they weren't betraying you, they were defending themselves...

Cheers.

[Watchman]

I slapped down a fort with a tiny depleted remnant spearman unit inside a bit south of Trapezous to block the approach and politely told the Pontics they no longer had military access rights to my domains. And that town being chronically restless, it needs a decent-sized garrison anyway which further discourages the AI.

Then again, I keep campaign difficulty on Hard. The VH AI is too obsessive-compulsive for my tastes.

[jhhowell]

It bewilders me as to how this is happening, so instead of thinking through it logically I'm just going to blitz it with the following code.


That code helped, but the accumulation of homeland/expansion markers continues at a slower pace. I have no idea what's causing it - my latest saves are in Summer and Winter 247, with six and seven markers per province respectively. Nothing noteworthy happened in the Autumn and Winter turns (various battles, but nothing I'd expect the script to know or care about). All of the governments in the Pan-Caucasus region have been in place for years now, in case that matters. The timing is about right for one marker/year, but I didn't pay close attention until 247, when I realized that I had a couple more markers than when I started using Foot's revised code (starting ~250ish, I probably have saves that could narrow it down more specifically).

I can post save games if that would help to track this down.

[innocex]

One thing you might consider trying:

Start the game, and do the usual conquering thing. Don't worry too much about going in debt, because every captured settlement adds to your income and detracts from your army upkeep. If you manage to grab all the settlements (personally I only consider Kotais, Mtshwhatsit, and Kabalaka to be the ones you need--I leave Phrapsa as a buffer, for what it's worth) before the AS attack you, fantastic.

When you realize the Seleucids are about to come for you (you'll know when they send a diplomat to hang out next to one of your cities), grab a spy (don't let your starting spy get killed) and have him find out which approach the Seleucids are taking--you have the geographical advantage of being in the mountains, so they have to come through narrow passes and, often, over bridges to reach you. Figure out which pass they're coming up, and bring as much army as you have (which may be very little, but bring it anyway), and just sit in their way. I recommend camping out on a river crossing, but you might prefer a mountainous position. The Seleucid army will either be intimidated into leaving without initiating hostilities, or it will attack you anyway and be a considerable tactical disadvantage (and, given the dinky crap the Seleucids throw at you initially, probably a general disadvantage as well). I've never had the Seleucids send more than one army at a time, so you'll only have to defend one pass at a time. The key point here is: Don't let the Seleucids actually reach any of your settlements. If they do, they'll attack them, and then you'll probably be boned. Find a choke point and just sit there, blocking the route in. Unless your army is miserably laughable, there's a chance they'll just stare at you for a bit, then wander off.

All the while, your settlements are slowly dragging you out of debt (in fact, disband as much of your army as you're comfortable with, so that you'll get out faster). Once you're in the black, keep saving up and build mines in every settlement you can. Then you'll be able to get started on everything else.

As you can tell, it's a long, slow process, and a certain degree of luck is certainly involved. However, scare tactics and sycophancy (offering military aid against all kinds of random people) have done a good job for me of working in unison to prevent the AS from attacking me before I'm ready, and once you're ready, you can dive right in. Best of luck.

Cheers.
this is a pretty good tactic, clogging up the moutain passes - you can also build forts in the mountain with a weak garrison, and keep one strong stack on patrol in the south to help if the fort is attacked

i am playing as hayasdan too, i was able to get about 7 rebel cities and now i have a long war with the seleukids, we will see how i do, i have to completely get guerilla on them.

i was wondering, i was trying to do the hai homeland reformation and i was able to build a type 1 gov't in armavir. but now how do i build the other type 1 and 2 gov't in the surrounding cities? i know, for example, in ani khamar, i should be able to build a homeland city, and i built the prerequisite buildings - and when i destroy the military occupation thing, i can only rebuild a type 3 satrapy gov't... any ideas? do you think im still missing one of the prereq. buildings?

[Sarkiss]

i was wondering, i was trying to do the hai homeland reformation and i was able to build a type 1 gov't in armavir. but now how do i build the other type 1 and 2 gov't in the surrounding cities? i know, for example, in ani khamar, i should be able to build a homeland city, and i built the prerequisite buildings - and when i destroy the military occupation thing, i can only rebuild a type 3 satrapy gov't... any ideas? do you think im still missing one of the prereq. buildings?
you do not need to destroy military occupation. what you do need to destroy is a government buildind (whether it is type III or IV) itself.
i had difficulties realising how the reform works too:laugh4:
AFAIK, when the Homeland (Type I government) building IS FINISHED in Armavir only then the other settlements' markers for Homeland, Expansion will appear. just wait. when they appear destroy the above mentioned buildings and erect the new ones - type I and II.

[Leão magno]

Technically, if you marched against them and they attacked you, they weren't betraying you, they were defending themselves...

Cheers.
I was going in that direction but I was just taking Trapezous, I did not invaded Ponic territory, that is why I said they betraid me! :dizzy2:

Anyway, I avoided Trapezous and ended my agreements with Seleucia since they sent 2 armies to my border, the Seleucids are not attacking even though I have just one full stack to defend the trritory. Is working fine, I am having some time o build up my army from a Ptolemais regular tribute for which I gave them my alligiance!

[General War]

EB rocks! I've developed a very simple tactic using the Hayasdan(VH/H). Using only 6 horse archers and 3 generals and I can completely destroy a full stack. In fact, I once destroy 1.5 stacks(I layed siege to a city whilst my infantry was trying to catch up - which is another tactic).

Setup: Put your generals(gen) on the biggest hill, far away from where the enemy are likely to setup. Horse archers(HA) can go anywhere. In fact the more random the better.

1st action: Set your HA to destroy all archers, then slingers then skirmishers.

2nd action: If they have cavalry, it's now chasing someone. Get your gen and kill it and then go back to your hill.

3rd action: Make a cup of tea.

4th action: Make sure none of your HA get destroyed. If anything goes near your Gen then destroy it.

5th action: By now, all the foot will be exhausted. Go to one of your HA, switch off skirmishing then gently guide whatever foot that's chasing it to your gen. Don't send your gen to the foot, let the foot come to you. We don't want your gen to get exhausted.

6th action: Keep this up and destroy the foot units one at a time until they're all dead.

This tactic works fantastically against foot armies(Selekid and Ptol - who are allied against me), but does anyone have a tactic for taking on cavalry armies? I'm going to have to take on the Parthians very soon, and I'm more than a little bit worried.

[Maksimus]

EB rocks! I've developed a very simple tactic using the Hayasdan(VH/H). Using only 6 horse archers and 3 generals and I can completely destroy a full stack. In fact, I once destroy 1.5 stacks(I layed siege to a city whilst my infantry was trying to catch up - which is another tactic).

Setup: Put your generals(gen) on the biggest hill, far away from where the enemy are likely to setup. Horse archers(HA) can go anywhere. In fact the more random the better.

1st action: Set your HA to destroy all archers, then slingers then skirmishers.

2nd action: If they have cavalry, it's now chasing someone. Get your gen and kill it and then go back to your hill.

3rd action: Make a cup of tea.

4th action: Make sure none of your HA get destroyed. If anything goes near your Gen then destroy it.

5th action: By now, all the foot will be exhausted. Go to one of your HA, switch off skirmishing then gently guide whatever foot that's chasing it to your gen. Don't send your gen to the foot, let the foot come to you. We don't want your gen to get exhausted.

6th action: Keep this up and destroy the foot units one at a time until they're all dead.

This tactic works fantastically against foot armies(Selekid and Ptol - who are allied against me), but does anyone have a tactic for taking on cavalry armies? I'm going to have to take on the Parthians very soon, and I'm more than a little bit worried.

Very nice, I personaly used that tactic against Sarmatians too..

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=93151&page=5

[Mouzafphaerre]

.
General War,

I've added your post to my favourites and copied your tactics in a text file. :bow:
.

[Maksimus]

EB rocks! I've developed a very simple tactic using the Hayasdan(VH/H). Using only 6 horse archers and 3 generals and I can completely destroy a full stack. In fact, I once destroy 1.5 stacks(I layed siege to a city whilst my infantry was trying to catch up - which is another tactic).

Setup: Put your generals(gen) on the biggest hill, far away from where the enemy are likely to setup. Horse archers(HA) can go anywhere. In fact the more random the better.

1st action: Set your HA to destroy all archers, then slingers then skirmishers.

2nd action: If they have cavalry, it's now chasing someone. Get your gen and kill it and then go back to your hill.

3rd action: Make a cup of tea.

4th action: Make sure none of your HA get destroyed. If anything goes near your Gen then destroy it.

5th action: By now, all the foot will be exhausted. Go to one of your HA, switch off skirmishing then gently guide whatever foot that's chasing it to your gen. Don't send your gen to the foot, let the foot come to you. We don't want your gen to get exhausted.


6th action: Keep this up and destroy the foot units one at a time until they're all dead.

This tactic works fantastically against foot armies(Selekid and Ptol - who are allied against me), but does anyone have a tactic for taking on cavalry armies? I'm going to have to take on the Parthians very soon, and I'm more than a little bit worried.

See here :: I personaly used similar tactic against Sarmatians too.. That means HA and heavy Cavalry - But I play on a Very Hard battle see my thread bellow so you can belive me

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showth...t=93151&page=5

The poin is, that when you battle large Horse armies That are likely to have many HA and most of the Stepe Noble Units - You mus be fast and smart to win!
Let me give an example of you (player) having Generals and HA, and lets say the AI has some Generals and HA (in my case it was generals and those 'good' HA nobles)

1. If you are defening... you have two options!
First is to put ALL of your army as near to enemy as possible (disable S mode for HA and make them defend) - Then you seek a FLANK of the enemy army to launch a FULL attack!
With all your army riding in the dirrection of the enemy - so when you come near the first enemy unit - other enemy units wont hit you with arrows much..

That means to click the whole army, that is now tight together to run behid the enemy from the flank. But if you are in some distance from the HA enemy you should just spread your army until you came close to launch an attack.
In that way your HA will allways catch the enemy just in time for the generals to deliver the finall blow!(just before that you should go slightly back with your HA leaving the generals to do their part):juggle2:

Then you use full charge of all your generals (just have to look that they are spread and one by the other or even one within the other generel - so you can make better charge bonus against the enemy!)..

By this method you are making enemy flee - but be sure to kill their general first and that the army does not come back to fight! If there are some woods - use them to be there all the time and to gain a full charge while in the safe!
Second way to win when you are defending is to go as far away from the enemy at the battle deployment - so you waith him to come to you! Then use his (most likely) spread army and flank him now from two sides if possible..(this is very likely to win if you have some foot to, but basicly., foot complies with all these tactics)
For runing down those fast archers yous your HA and generals that follow.. but be sure not to chase one unit at a time.. make your attack in full.. at once... sometimes your horse archers can kill couple of units that attack you one after the other ..

2. If you are Attacking .. use the First tactic when defending!

And this is the way I win my Very Hard battles with huge unit settings...
Try it.. you can't loose much!:yes:

[innocex]

while we are talking about hayasdan, has anyone else noticed that when you make a custom battle, some of the hai units are missing? for example, i cant find armenian generals, light horse archers, caucasian archers?

am i making some mistake?

[Fearless Samnite]

alright......my interest is peaked......i'll play hayasdan on vh and see what all this interesting challenge is about

look forward to it

[General War]

See here :: I personaly used similar tactic against Sarmatians too.. That means HA and heavy Cavalry - But I play on a Very Hard battle see my thread bellow so you can belive me

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showth...t=93151&page=5

The poin is, that when you battle large Horse armies That are likely to have many HA and most of the Stepe Noble Units - You mus be fast and smart to win!
Let me give an example of you (player) having Generals and HA, and lets say the AI has some Generals and HA (in my case it was generals and those 'good' HA nobles)

1. If you are defening... you have two options!
First is to put ALL of your army as near to enemy as possible (disable S mode for HA and make them defend) - Then you seek a FLANK of the enemy army to launch a FULL attack!
With all your army riding in the dirrection of the enemy - so when you come near the first enemy unit - other enemy units wont hit you with arrows much..

That means to click the whole army, that is now tight together to run behid the enemy from the flank. But if you are in some distance from the HA enemy you should just spread your army until you came close to launch an attack.
In that way your HA will allways catch the enemy just in time for the generals to deliver the finall blow!(just before that you should go slightly back with your HA leaving the generals to do their part):juggle2:

Then you use full charge of all your generals (just have to look that they are spread and one by the other or even one within the other generel - so you can make better charge bonus against the enemy!)..

By this method you are making enemy flee - but be sure to kill their general first and that the army does not come back to fight! If there are some woods - use them to be there all the time and to gain a full charge while in the safe!
Second way to win when you are defending is to go as far away from the enemy at the battle deployment - so you waith him to come to you! Then use his (most likely) spread army and flank him now from two sides if possible..(this is very likely to win if you have some foot to, but basicly., foot complies with all these tactics)
For runing down those fast archers yous your HA and generals that follow.. but be sure not to chase one unit at a time.. make your attack in full.. at once... sometimes your horse archers can kill couple of units that attack you one after the other ..

2. If you are Attacking .. use the First tactic when defending!

And this is the way I win my Very Hard battles with huge unit settings...
Try it.. you can't loose much!:yes:



Excellent suggestion. A sort of "into the valley of death" approach. I like it. Just seek and destroy and ignore the archers. That does simplify things. I'm not overly convinced on the second way. Double envelopments work extremely well with a balanced army, but with a purely cavalry army I reckon' hit 'em quick and hit 'em hard is the best approach.

The Seleukids in my game have woken up the fact that the phalanx is completely useless against me. It started using lots of heavy archers and heavy cavalry, which has basically forced me to use a similiar tactic that you're using. Depending on the setup, I generally mass my heavy cavalry, charge the archers, burst through their lines and then find the general to kill. After that I run away to a big hill and let my horse archers finish off the archers and exhaust the infantry. It worked quite well as I've now taken all of modern day Iraq and Iran and now there is a rush to beat the Baktrians(ally) to what is left. Next stop Eygpt(the Ptoles have been giving me the shits - ever other turn they are asking me to become a protectate).

[General War]

.
General War,

I've added your post to my favourites and copied your tactics in a text file. :bow:
.


I'm honoured!!!

[Tellos Athenaios]

This tactic works fantastically against foot armies(Selekid and Ptol - who are allied against me), but does anyone have a tactic for taking on cavalry armies? I'm going to have to take on the Parthians very soon, and I'm more than a little bit worried.

Pike Mercs for holding 'em + medium/cheap AP infantry for killing the generals (axe-men, Sipri Tukul). Also: slingers & flaming arrows. AP cavalry is another wise descision.

[General War]

Pike Mercs for holding 'em + medium/cheap AP infantry for killing the generals (axe-men, Sipri Tukul). Also: slingers & flaming arrows. AP cavalry is another wise descision.


I've been having a bit of a think about this and I'm basing it purely on the way I use my cavalry armies. I'm finding the most difficult units to tackle are heavy skirmishers, heavy archers, and spearmen with missiles. The problem with pike is that you have pin down a unit before you can get the pike into action, and even then it moves so slowly that the battle might be over by the time you get there. Axe-men can be slightly annoying if they have missile weapons, but they are generally susceptible to missile fire themselves. As far as slingers and archers are concerned, they are the first target for my horse archers. If there is a lot of them, then my HAs just form cant circle. So, I was thinking hvy skirm, hvy arch & hvy spear with some cav support.

Of course the problem with my option is that my stack is going to cost about 3 times that of the Parthian stack. Not very cost effective. I wonder how well scorpions do against horse archers. ; )

I think I'll probably end up with about half the stack being horse archers, a quarter heavy skirmishers and the rest heavy cavalry. It should give me enough flexiblity to pick my spot and hit it hard. I'll give it a go if the Parthians end up fighting their way past the Baktrians. If not, I guess I could always run a sim, but that seems like cheating. It's always more fun to find out if a tactic works or not during "the real thing".

I'm sure your way works, and I may end up using it, but what I'm looking for at the moment is a way is a to quickly convert my current cavalry army into an effective anti-cavalry army.

[Fearless Samnite]

HAI
vh-m
269BC
about 8 grand in debt
down to -68 income per turn
everyone around me are allies
1 garrison of eastern skirmishers in each city with highest tax possible
all available(including generals) units grouped together conquering a path west along the coast

i scout west with my spy while i secure trade rights and map info from other factions in the east

so far no problems besides running out of troops.....hope i don't lose a city i need income

anyway the interesting point at hand!!

it seems a Pontic city rebeled and now is Arveni
this shall prove very interesting now so early in the game!!
coolness

The Arveni REBEL IN THE EAST (https://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a132/Virgo_Bluefire/InterestingTurnofEvents.jpg)

https://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a132/Virgo_Bluefire/InterestingTurnofEvents.jpg

[Mouzafphaerre]

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When the Galati rebel they become either Aedui or Arverni. ~:)
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[pezhetairoi]

Arverni, always. Never Aedui. When Tylis rebels it turns Aedui. When Ankyra rebels it turns Arverni.

I almost made it as Hayasdan, being able to field a fullstack with 6 generals, lots of spearmen and pantodapoi phalangitai (the native MIC in Armavir can build PPh, who are INVALUABLE in holding back Seleukid phalanxes, even if at a mild disadvantage). I captured Kotais, then Mtskheta, then advanced to take Trapezous and Ani-Kamah on my return trip back to Armavir. I signed an alliance with Pontos and Sauromatae (i forced diplomacy, to be honest.) and built all the mines I could. I didn't take Kabalaka or Phraaspa because they are more trouble than they are worth, and they are worth more as buffers, especially Phraaspa with its Persian Hoplites, which will keep the Greys off you in the east. With this little core empire I was able to support a fullstack while putting the pan-Caucasian reforms into action.

The silly Seleukids who decided to attack me some 10 plus years later ran their smallstacks and halfstacks straight into the teeth of my fullstack phalanx-and-cataphract war machine. Then I counterattacked and had just besieged Karkathiokerta when the Seleukids begged for peace. I gave it to them at the cost of Karkathiokerta and Edessa. One stunning thing about this Hayasdan campaign was that the Seleukids were VERY afraid, and kept asking for peace. They also had nothing more than a halfstack, and nearly everything less. The ONLY fullstack they had left was in Susa, and that was just sitting tight.

After pausing to take stock and rebuild a bit, I moved on and decided to attack Antiocheia, logic being it was a Mediterranean port, and it was a huge city which I figured would give income. Big mistake.

I attacked it, but had just besieged for a turn when the Seleukids came round again begging for peace. This time I demanded Antiocheia and Damaskos so I would have one Seleukid front removed from my war. Then I moved for Mazaka to defeat a halfstack there some turns later, and as fate would have it, they ceasefired once more. This time I demanded Arbela, and was satisfied with the borders and income of my empire.

THen the full results of my folly came crashing down on me. The Ptolemaioi attacked, and while the Greys had no fullstacks, the Yellows had them. I beat them every time, but I was bogged down in Syria, unwilling to give up Antiocheia, and stuck far from my supply lines and troop sources. My economy was not secure and stable enough yet to support two fullstacks. I had no spare cataphract generals, those left behind were busy governing and there were only two of them anyway. Then meanwhile Susa and Ekbatana suddenly started REALLY ramping up troop production, producing a fullstack EACH in two years. That was when I gave up. Sigh.

They aren't impossible, but make the wrong move and you're pretty much owned.

[Sarkiss]

while we are talking about hayasdan, has anyone else noticed that when you make a custom battle, some of the hai units are missing? for example, i cant find armenian generals, light horse archers, caucasian archers?

am i making some mistake?
im guessing its to do with the EDU files. same isssue that affects Roman roster. EDUs switching should get you your Armenian units back.

[Fearless Samnite]

I ask for map info in exchange for my map info as a deal with silver death my ally.....he gets annoyed and annuls our alliance.....
the cookie starts to crumble...
5 years later...all hell breaks loose politically and small skirmishing takes place
Pontos decides to send a full stack up the middle and take my coastal town and split my empire in half....breaking the alliance......Silver Death already has 2 units in the east just sitting in my lands taunting me.... Meanwhile after surviving thus far another full rebel stack attacks my main army..I win costly.....later while another army of AS decides to besiege pergamon (as rejects ceasefire)i charge with whats left of my army my 5 generals and take ipsos...but have no unit to leave behind to garrison

but i have 15k to spend......now i have to decide what im going to do
what i do now will impact my empire greatly
i'll never give up even if i have to take back all my lost cities and exterminate all the people in them.....I SHALL NOT GIVE UP!!

ankyra has been lost to pontos again.....shall i free the people of arverni?

https://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a132/Virgo_Bluefire/EpicTurn2.jpg

[Mouzafphaerre]

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Arverni, always. Never Aedui. When Tylis rebels it turns Aedui. When Ankyra rebels it turns Arverni.
Never say never. ~;) In my campaign they have rebelled for the Audui exclusively, without exception. I said Audui or Arverni based on others' reports.
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[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

If it is captured and lost before the palace structure is ever upgraded it will rebel to the Aedui. If it has time to upgrade the palace structure, then is taken and rebels, it will rebel to the Arverni. (Or it may be the other way around.)

Who built the palace building is what determines who it will rebel to. So if you capture a town and upgrade it, it will rebel to you if captured by someone else then rebels. At the start of the game, every town has to have a corresponding founding faction, and that is who the town will count as the builder, and whom to rebel to, for the town. The game can have a different owner for the time after they upgrade too (some obvious ones like this are Arse which starts out Lusotanna and then upgrades to KH).

[Mouzafphaerre]

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Thanks. :bow:
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