Arche Selevkia

[anubis88]

what does it stand for? infinite seleucia? or sth other? i know that Arche has many meanings, but what did you guys choose?

[Pharnakes]

IIRC royal.

[Landwalker]

Ostensibly, the literal meaning is "The Empire Seleuceia". Arche/Αρχη here meaning empire, kingdom, realm, etc., and Seleuceia/Σελευκεια being the name of that empire/kingdom/realm.

Tangential Note: I think that "royal" would be something on the order of βασιλικος (or, in this instance, βασιλικη), but unfortunately my compositional skills (and relevant vocabulary) aren't outstanding.

Cheers.

Edit: I was going to edit in a note about the other meanings of Αρχη, including "Beginning" and "Rule", all dependent on various contexts, but Tellos beat me to it.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Arche means quite a lot of things (all depending on context).
-Beginning;
-Rule;
-Empire/Realm. <-- this is the one which the context dictates;
-Command.

EDIT: Landwalker is exactly right - it most certainly does not have royal conotations. (Archon (the one having the [partial] arche (command), or in English: magistrate. Not even Basileus does have to denote someone of royal blood (though it's very, very common to)- that merely means someone with final say. As in: chief magistrate -> archon basileus. (There is a much stronger, much more absolute, version of Ruler in Greek -> Despotes. Gods are Despotai.)

There are a couple of all very common "royal" adjectives - Basilikos; Basileios; and Basilios (Ionic). So the Royal Seleukeia would've most likely been Basileia Seleukeia.

[Folgore]

I've always wondered, how do you pronouce 'Seleuceia' or 'Seleucos'. I've never had any ancient greek lessons, but I'd really like to learn how to pronounce it properly. And I don't think there are any Greek units with an EU in their name, so I can't learn it off the voicemod.

Is it 'seh-leh-oo-kos' or 'seh-loo-kos' (or something else entirely)?

[pseudocaesar]

I've always said Sel-you-kos

[Landwalker]

I've always wondered, how do you pronouce 'Seleuceia' or 'Seleucos'. I've never had any ancient greek lessons, but I'd really like to learn how to pronounce it properly. And I don't think there are any Greek units with an EU in their name, so I can't learn it off the voicemod.

Is it 'seh-leh-oo-kos' or 'seh-loo-kos' (or something else entirely)?

For native English speakers, it's habitual to say "Sell-yoo-kos", because that's usually how we render that diphthong, so this is the easiest way for us to pronounce it relatively close to the actual pronunciation. If you want to really hit it accurately, I would suggest trying to replace the "y" with "eh", but to preserve the diphthong's nature. So, "Sehl-ehoo-kos" (where "ehoo" is slurred to sound like one syllable). If you can't do that, just separate the diphthong: "Seh-leh-oo-kos".

Cheers.

[Dyabedes of Aphrodisias]

I've always wondered, how do you pronouce 'Seleuceia' or 'Seleucos'. I've never had any ancient greek lessons, but I'd really like to learn how to pronounce it properly. And I don't think there are any Greek units with an EU in their name, so I can't learn it off the voicemod.

Is it 'seh-leh-oo-kos' or 'seh-loo-kos' (or something else entirely)?
Funny, I was just about to start a thread asking for some help with the Greek; I would like a mini-lesson as well.

Given that Greek tends to pronounce everything in my experience (ex. -oi = "oh-ee"), I assume your pronunciation is correct.

However, I'm curious about the 'ei', 'ai' and stuff. "Epeiros"...does it say "Ep-ay-ee-ros"? How about "Sparte"? "Spar-tay" or just "Sparta"? How does one say "phalangitai"? "Pha-lan-gee-tay" or "pha-lang-eet-aye"?

[EDIT] Man, I can't even speak English...

[mighty_rome]

I think a lot of people in the community would love it if someone on the EB team could compile some type of list for correct pronunciation for some of these words used in the game. Words as simple as "Arche" could be pronounced at least five different ways, for example.

It would be very helpful if someone could take some time to do this. Thank you.

[Landwalker]

Funny, I was just about to start a thread asking for some help with the Greek; I would like a mini-lesson as well.

Given that Greek tends to pronounce everything in my experience (ex. -oi = "oh-ee"), I assume your pronunciation is correct.

However, I'm curious about the 'ei', 'ai' and stuff. "Epeiros"...does it say "Ep-ay-ee-ros"? How about "Sparte"? "Spar-tay" or just "Sparta"? How does one say "phalangitai"? "Pha-lan-gee-tay" or "pha-lang-eet-aye"?

[EDIT] Man, I can't even speak English...

Actually, "oi" and "ai" and "ei" are all monosyllabic diphthongs--the pronunciations (especially of "oi") in EB occasionally separate them when they shouldn't. To address your particular examples:

Epeiros: "Ep-ay-ross" (Επειρος) (the diphthong ει/ei rhymes with "say")
Sparte: "Spar-tay" (Σπαρτη*)
Phalangitai: "Pha-lan-gee-taye" (last syllable rhymes with "Eye") (φαλαγγιται).

*Sparte, or Σπαρτη, ends in an eta (η), so it rhymes with "say".




Words as simple as "Arche" could be pronounced at least five different ways

A couple of points on Arche/Αρχη:
-- "Ch" is represented by "chi", which is always pronounced as a sort of aspirated "k", like in "Bach". It is never pronounced as in "Charles".
-- Almost all Greek nouns that, when transliterated, end in "-e" are nouns that originally ended in eta/η, so they rhyme with "say", not with "eh" or "ee".
-- "A" is pretty much always as in "father" rather than as in "stack".

Thus, "Arr-khay".

Cheers.

[Dyabedes of Aphrodisias]

Mightily helpful. Thanks much man.

At least I've been saying it mostly correct. Except for the ending of 'Epeiros,' which I was using a long 'o' for.

Are most 'o's pronounced the same in general, then?

Perhaps one of these days I will actually get to learn these languages that I want to...

[icydawgfish]

I've always prononced it 'arc sel-ook-ia'. Probably the wrong pronounciation, but oh well.

[Landwalker]

Are most 'o's pronounced the same in general, then?

Somewhat. For purposes of EB, most anything that looks like it ends in "-os" rhymes with "floss", not with "rose". There are differences (you can hear some of them in battle, as when the soldiers say "Hos tachista" (ως ταχιστα)--The "o" in "Hos" is long, such that it sounds like "Host" with the T cut off the end. Generally, omegas are long, omicrons are short, but since that doesn't carry through to transliteration it's harder to tell. Fortunately, just about everything you'll see written that ends in "-os" is using the omicron.

Cheers.

[Dyabedes of Aphrodisias]

Ah, I see. Good stuff.

Thanks again, that clears up a bunch.

I do think that there should be some readily available guide to pronunciations here, mainly for the Greek, Celtic, Germanic and whatever the As'Sab'yn Wal'jau speak (and how in the name of God you pronounce that itself). A Classical Latin guide would be nice even though I myself have it pretty much down (so methinks).

Germanic and Celtic in particular (Caidainh=Kee-dunk and Gaeleiche=Guy-latch? Fair enough, but what about the former Swebotraustastamnoz and the like?), as the Greek isn't quite as hard to get (it's mostly just differences in individual letter and dipthong sounds, as far as I can see).

[mighty_rome]

Thanks a lot, Landwalker, that information does help a lot. (I don't know a thing when it comes to Greek)


I've always prononced it 'arc sel-ook-ia'. Probably the wrong pronounciation, but oh well.

You're not the only one, I'm sure. It could have been "Ark-ee", "Archie", "Arch", or any number of things. Somehow I was actually pronouncing it right.

[kambiz]

Thus, "Arr-khay". So Arr-khay Sehl-ehoo-kia ,right Wlaker?
BTW the "Arche" pronunciation is very close to armenian Arkh (king) !

Also I think it would be helpful if EB historians make a guide for the each tongues in the game. Let us learn something :yes:

[Hax]

Hmm, funny. I always pronounced it:

Ar-kay Selay-hoo-kae-ia

May be my Dutch nature though :P

[Tellos Athenaios]

The eta most definitely doesn't sound like -ay in say. In fact there Greeks rendered the sound of sheep as: "Bebe" with Beta, Epsilon, Beta, Eta. So the Eta is a prolonged Epsilon - similar to the French è as in collège.

The chi -ch- sound is in fact the aspirated (means that an -h- was added to it so to speak, not that it's voiced mind you) kappa -k-. So that makes for "arche":

A (short, as in) + RH (rho) + KH (chi) + è.

Seleukeia - that's tricky. According to the rules I learned it'd be:

S +
E (either sharp as in è or blunt as a "uh" - depends on how the accents go, which I have no knowledge of) +
L +
a sound which only seems to exist in ancient Greek (epsilon+upsilon) & Dutch (ui) & a couple of other languages (if there any, that is)- but most certainly not in English or German - somewhat similar (if my retarded French is correct, so I very well may be completely off here) as the French oeille +
K +
EI as in the French Marseille +
A (long as in the Italia).

[Folgore]

Alright, that clears that up, thanks. :)

[Maeran]

I think a lot of people in the community would love it if someone on the EB team could compile some type of list for correct pronunciation for some of these words used in the game. Words as simple as "Arche" could be pronounced at least five different ways, for example.

It would be very helpful if someone could take some time to do this. Thank you.

Some hints on units with names in Semitic alphabets would be good.

Gldgmtk? I know that vowels are not normally included in the writing, but what vowels should be where?

[Landwalker]

The eta most definitely doesn't sound like -ay in say. In fact there Greeks rendered the sound of sheep as: "Bebe" with Beta, Epsilon, Beta, Eta. So the Eta is a prolonged Epsilon - similar to the French è as in collège.

Actually, that's only in modern Greek. I was attempting to give pronunciations based on projections of ancient Attic pronunciation.


BTW the "Arche" pronunciation is very close to armenian Arkh (king) !

You'll find that a number of Armenian words have Greek derivations.

Another interesting tidbit: Roma shares its name with, and is probably derived from, the Greek word ρωμη (Rhoh-may), which means "strength".

Cheers.

[Tellos Athenaios]

No modern Greek uses i for eta.

Kale Taxide - Bon voyage; -> Kali Taxidi.
Kale Orexe - Bon appetite. -> Kali Orexi.

At least our local Greek descendent restaurant owners do. :inquisitive:

[artavazd]

[BYou'll find that a number of Armenian words have Greek derivations.

Another interesting tidbit: Roma shares its name with, and is probably derived from, the Greek word ρωμη (Rhoh-may), which means "strength".
Greek is the closest living language to Armenian, and vice versa. Armenian and Greek share alot of similarities in language especialy sentence sturcture. This however does not meant that one has the other languages derivations. Arkah is not a Greek derivation, but a word that simply is common between the languages because they are so similiar. For example in Armenian the word for door is "door" word for eight is "oot" word for foot is "vot" does this mean that Armenian has English or German derivations or vice versa? It is simply the common Indo-European heritage. With Greek there are even more similarites, because Armenian and Greek are closer to eachother on the "Indo-European language tree"

[abou]

Geeze, it is like watching the first episode of Metalocalypse when they go to the grocery store.

[Elthore]

Im also questioning the prononciation of Eta as 'ay'. From my Attic Greek text: error [or ace]
Those are the examples given on how to pronounce Eta(n). It also adds: n is the long version of e(epsilon). Nowhere is there an AY sound.

From Alpha to Omega by Anne H. Groton

[Landwalker]

Im also questioning the prononciation of Eta as 'ay'. From my Attic Greek text: error [or ace]
Those are the examples given on how to pronounce Eta(n). It also adds: n is the long version of e(epsilon). Nowhere is there an AY sound.

From Alpha to Omega by Anne H. Groton

You do realize that the "a" in "ace" is an "ay" sound, right?

A bit more investigation reveals (1) That there are four major conventions of Greek pronunciation, and (2) I'm apparently using the Erasmian one, wherein Eta is pronounced the same way as the A in "late", rather than the Biblical convention ("Ski", which is also the listed pronunciation in Modern Greek) or the Attic Historical Convention ("pet"). Since all of my Greek professors have used the Erasmian pronunciation, I'm sticking with that, but apparently there are several options.

For more information: Greek Pronunciation Guide ('http://www.biblicalgreek.org/links/pronunciation.php')

To Artavazd: You're probably right, my mistake. I ignored the Indo-European origins and instead operated based on my knowledge of Byzantine history (since it would be logical to assume that the heavy influence of the Eastern Empire in Armenia would result in language borrowings).

[keravnos]

Im also questioning the prononciation of Eta as 'ay'. From my Attic Greek text: error [or ace]
Those are the examples given on how to pronounce Eta(n). It also adds: n is the long version of e(epsilon). Nowhere is there an AY sound.

From Alpha to Omega by Anne H. Groton

ει=ay sound
η=e+e sound (not like in see), double e as in exeter.

[Elthore]

ahh, I didnt know you were talking about the diphthong. My fault.

Still though, just writing AY in english is a little misleading, because it could either be pronounced AIsle or EIght. The latter is the proper prononciation of the epsilon iota diphthong.
A key fact that you mentioned earlier, is that this is a single sylable and is a little tricky for an english speaker to blur into one.

For any Canadian readers, its just like: eh?
heheh

[Landwalker]

ahh, I didnt know you were talking about the diphthong. My fault.

Still though, just writing AY in english is a little misleading, because it could either be pronounced AIsle or EIght. The latter is the proper prononciation of the epsilon iota diphthong.
A key fact that you mentioned earlier, is that this is a single sylable and is a little tricky for an english speaker to blur into one.

For any Canadian readers, its just like: eh?
heheh

To me, "ay" is clearly as in "eight" (or "bay", "pay", "lay", etc.), but I can see where that would be misleading. If I had wanted to use IPA notation, it would have been "ej", whereas "aj" is "aisle".

The difficult single syllable I was talking about earlier was "eu". English speakers usually render it either as "oo" ("sleuth") or "yoo" (??).

I was definitely not talking about the ει diphthong earlier, although that is also pronounced "ej/ay". I was talking about η/eta which, as I mentioned, in the Erasmian pronunciation, is also "ej/ay" (technically, it should be monophthongized, but that's virtually impossible for native English speakers, so pronouncing it the same as ει is fine).

For me (and others using Erasmian pronunciation), the Canadian "eh" is employed for epsilon, not for eta. Although, Attic pronunciation evidently does use the Canadian "eh" for eta as well.

Cheers.

[Barnabas]

A bit more investigation reveals (1) That there are four major conventions of Greek pronunciation, and (2) I'm apparently using the Erasmian one, wherein Eta is pronounced the same way as the A in "late", rather than the Biblical convention ("Ski", which is also the listed pronunciation in Modern Greek) or the Attic Historical Convention ("pet"). Since all of my Greek professors have used the Erasmian pronunciation, I'm sticking with that, but apparently there are several options.


My Koine professors used the Erasmian pronunciation, though some speculate that Erasmus was told how to pronounce Koine Greek incorrectly (apparently as a joke by his fellow Humanists, though I am uncertain if they would have let him publish that joke). In reality, we have no certain way of knowing how Koine is pronounced, but everyone I know uses the Erasmian pronunciation as well (though with a "Southern" twang, given where I live). :laugh4:

[Landwalker]

My Koine professors used the Erasmian pronunciation, though some speculate that Erasmus was told how to pronounce Koine Greek incorrectly (apparently as a joke by his fellow Humanists, though I am uncertain if they would have let him publish that joke). In reality, we have no certain way of knowing how Koine is pronounced, but everyone I know uses the Erasmian pronunciation as well (though with a "Southern" twang, given where I live). :laugh4:

Even my Attic professors use the Erasmian pronunciation. Of course, I imagine my own pronunciation has quite a bit of twang in practice, as well, given that I'm from Georgia (at school in Massachusetts). I somehow doubt that that "legend" about Erasmus' "education" is true, but it's certainly amusing. Oh, those crazy humanists.

Cheers.

[geala]

I'm a bit baffled about the eta-pronunciation. We pronounced (using Erasmian Greek) it like the German long "e" (or something between "e" and "&#228;"), which is not like in "say" but more a bit like in "air". Therefore the eta in Latin letters is nearly always written as "e", not as "ei" (like in "say").

The epsilon + ypsilon combination in "Sel e u keia" is common for example in German to, but as "e" and "u", pronounced like "oi", not like "e - u".
We would have pronounced "Ar - ch&#228; Se - loi - kei - a" ("kei" like in "say").

[Tellos Athenaios]

Air but with a somewhat prolonged -ai- sound is pretty much what I tried to describe earlier. If you want to know: there's this line in my sig from an Attic comedy.

"The fool goes about saying Be Be like a sheep." ~;)