School shooting in Tuusula Finland. [Archive]

The Wizard

11-07-2007, 15:26

How many has he killed? Latest news I've heard (Finnish police radio) says eight dead plus the shooter's suicide. School's principal is apparently one of the victims.

EDIT: Nope, no teen angst. The man was an admirer of Hitler, went by the name of "NaturalSelector89" on Battlefield 2, and had a manifesto up on his YouTube profile speaking of "natural selection" and "death to the idiocracy" by which he meant democracy, which he apparently believed was rule by the dumb masses (which would properly be called an ochlocracy, but I digress); he wanted rule by the intelligent. In it he emphasized that this was his own choice and had nothing to do with the music he listened or the games he listened. Yesterday he uploaded a video called "Jokela school massacre". This was planned.

EDIT2: Now I hear only 1 dead, and then 3. Anybody got any reliable numbers?

Kagemusha

11-07-2007, 15:42

The interior minister of Finland confirmed just a moment a go in Finnish MTV3 news that there is 7 or even more dead.:shame:

Fragony

11-07-2007, 15:50

Geez. Any info on the victims? Was as nazifreak who's circuit fried.

7 dead, 1 of them is the shooter, from the Bild

Seems like head of school is one of the victims.

And don't hold thread I started against me, I thought it was merely a hostage situation and I wanted to poke some fun at Finland. Too late to edit since it's closed.

Kagemusha

11-07-2007, 16:00

There will be a police press conference at 18:00 PM. I think we know the facts then. Some of the pupils interviewed have say that there was multiple shooters, but thats probably just something caused by the panic.It seems that the shooter fire at the police also, so maybe the police strike team "karhu" took him out, hopefully. In my humble opinion it would have been better for him to just shoot himself. I wonder what is going through the heads of the family members of the children that have died in the hands of this lunatic.
EDIT: Frag,no hard feelings. I think what im feeling right now is being stunned. I just hope this doesnt get any worse then it is. My feelings are with the victims and their loved ones.And my prayers.

ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88

11-07-2007, 16:37

I know where this thread is headed so.....

Violence rare at Finnish schools
Despite having the third-largest per capita ratio of handgun ownership
in the world, violent incidents are rare at Finnish schools.

Ice

11-07-2007, 16:44

Damn. Another School Shooting. My sorrows to all the families/friends affected. :shame:

Rodion Romanovich

11-07-2007, 16:46

My condoleances to the victims' families :candle: :shame:

Kagemusha

11-07-2007, 17:31

The official information have been received from Police. There are 8 dead. 5 boys,2 girls and a adult woman. The girls and boys were students and the adult woman was the school principle.The killer himself is in critical condition in care at Töölö hospital, after shooting himself in the head.
The weapon was registered to the shooter as he was member of a target shooting club.
Here is link in English about the latest news:

http://www.yle.fi/news/left/id74371.html

Husar

11-07-2007, 17:41

Wow, yet another. :dizzy2:

And why schools? Why kill those who are the least responsible for the democracy he apparently hated so much? :no:

Fragony

11-07-2007, 17:45

No less then 8 disgusting. Good luck to you guys.

Crazed Rabbit

11-07-2007, 18:21

My deepest condolences.

May God bless the Finnish people.

Crazed Rabbit

Innocentius

11-07-2007, 18:25

:no:

Ronin

11-07-2007, 18:30

Wow, yet another. :dizzy2:

And why schools? Why kill those who are the least responsible for the democracy he apparently hated so much? :no:

that´s because the kind of people that do these things are cowards and they go for soft targets.

Tribesman

11-07-2007, 20:21

Silly bugger , imagine shooting himself in the head , didn't the dumbass know that headshots only work if there is a brain in there .

Whats wierd is that although the video hosters have removed his "masterpieces" , his buddy lists still have lots of sick****s own versions of their "masterpieces" , normally involving tributes to the two pricks from columbine , coupled with some nice Nazi crap , then topped off with some look at me and my guns films .
Abolutely bloody crazy:thumbsdown:

spmetla

11-07-2007, 20:25

RIP to the fallen and my condolences for the families of all involved. :shame:

Mikeus Caesar

11-07-2007, 20:42

With the exception of the nazi crap, this guy sounds disturbingly alot like me if i was to let myself go. He sounds like the raging lunatic i can be, but restrain.

This has really made me look at myself, at what i am. Considering how i have on more than a few occassions thought of seriously doing this as well...it scares me to think i could have been this muppet, who fails so badly at sticking it to the establishment that he got caught alive.

Innocentius

11-07-2007, 20:51

I don't really think it's that disturbed to recognize ourselves in criminals, since we are all the same people. This guy just crossed a very thin line, unfortunately.

Seamus Fermanagh

11-07-2007, 21:18

I don't really think it's that disturbed to recognize ourselves in criminals, since we are all the same people. This guy just crossed a very thin line, unfortunately.

I disagree. Yes, we can recognize some aspects of ourselves in these individuals. They are, after all, people like ourselves with hopes, dreams, likes & dislikes. However, I do not believe that only a "very thin line" exists between good and evil. However disturbed, this was an active choice to harm the innocent that the vast majority of angry/upset/frustrated youths simply do not make.

Condolences and prayers for the families and victims.

atheotes

11-07-2007, 21:22

:sad2: :no: Worried that school shootings are becoming very common :coffeenews: ... :sad:

Gregoshi

11-07-2007, 21:32

...he wanted rule by the intelligent.

Ah, the old "whatever-group-(I-think)-I-belong-to should rule" schtick. ~:rolleyes:

AggonyDuck

11-07-2007, 21:43

Kagemusha

11-07-2007, 21:46

Well tomorrow we will lower the flags to half post here in this country to remember the victims of this horrible act. The tragedy has happened and there isnt much to say about it anymore. I think i will quote a certain prayer that seems like a good thought in black day like this.:shame:

God, give us grace to accept with serenity
the things that cannot be changed,
Courage to change the things
which should be changed,
and the Wisdom to distinguish
the one from the other.

Living one day at a time,
Enjoying one moment at a time,
Not taking matters into your own hands when you are an addict,
Forgiving others and yourself to live the right way,
When you right then you find out who you really are,
Telling yourself that what you do will not affect others because it doesn't,
Accepting hardship as a pathway to peace,
Loving, as Jesus did,
Not his sinful world but who I am,
Not as I would have it,
Trusting that You will make all things right,
If I surrender to God's will,
That I may be reasonably happy in this life
And supremely happy with You forever in the next.

Amen.

Innocentius

11-07-2007, 21:54

I disagree. Yes, we can recognize some aspects of ourselves in these individuals. They are, after all, people like ourselves with hopes, dreams, likes & dislikes. However, I do not believe that only a "very thin line" exists between good and evil. However disturbed, this was an active choice to harm the innocent that the vast majority of angry/upset/frustrated youths simply do not make.

Condolences and prayers for the families and victims.

Of course there is no thin line between good and evil since those are subjective values that can't be measured. The way I see it, there simply is now good or evil. Everything is actions, or the results of actions, merely.

The majority don't, yes. He probably felt like all of them, just add a little touch of what some would call "evil", although I would call it lack of impulse-control*, and you have a young guy gone rampage on his fellow students. We should probably save this discussion for later, though.

* Yes, he planned it, but there's a long way from planning to do something this dramatic to actually doing it. Also, he was apparently no great "planner" as he can't possibly have foreseen the exact consequences (explaining why he shot himself).

Tribesman

11-07-2007, 22:12

Also, he was apparently no great "planner" as he can't possibly have foreseen the exact consequences (explaining why he shot himself).

this twisted **** knew exactly what he wanted , he wanted other sick ****s to make him "immortal" in remembrance videos for school shooters like the hundreds hosted on sites that have now removed his vidoes .

Innocentius

11-07-2007, 22:37

this twisted **** knew exactly what he wanted , he wanted other sick ****s to make him "immortal" in remembrance videos for school shooters like the hundreds hosted on sites that have now removed his vidoes .

Yeah, sure, it's easy to condemn people as "sick ****s". Us and them, right?

Marshal Murat

11-07-2007, 22:37

AP New Article (http://apnews.myway.com/article/20071107/D8SOUDG80.html)

Sky News??? (http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30200-1291894,00.html)

Two sites linked by Drudge.

Tribesman

11-07-2007, 22:43

Yeah, sure, it's easy to condemn people as "sick ****s". Us and them, right?
Yes its bloody easy , take a look at you tube and see how many frigging hero and martyr videos are already up for this sick piece of shit .

Innocentius

11-07-2007, 22:44

Yes its bloody easy , take a look at you tube and see how many frigging hero and martyr videos are already up for this sick piece of shit .

Grow up and get a perspective, will you?

From Crass' song Mother Earth:

[---]
It's Myra Hindley on the cover,
Your very own sweet anti-mother.
There she is on the pages of The Star,
Ain't that just the place you wish you were?
Let her rot in hell is what you said,
Let her rot, let her starve, you'd see her dead.
Let her out but don't forget to tell you where she is,
The chance to screw her is a chance you wouldn't miss.
Let her suffer, give her pain is the verdict you gave,
You just can't wait to piss on her grave.
You pretend that you're horrified, make out that you care,
But really you wish that you had been there.
You say you can't bear the thought of what she did,
But you'd do it to her, you'd see her dead.
Tell me, what is the difference between her and you?
You say that you would kill her, well, what else would you do?
[---]

Tribesman

11-07-2007, 22:50

Grow up and get a perspective, will you?

Prespective ???? after you wrote this tripe Also, he was apparently no great "planner" as he can't possibly have foreseen the exact consequences (explaining why he shot himself).
...get yourself some information before you attempt to try perspective:dizzy2:

Innocentius

11-07-2007, 22:56

Prespective ???? after you wrote this tripe Also, he was apparently no great "planner" as he can't possibly have foreseen the exact consequences (explaining why he shot himself).
...get yourself some information before you attempt to try perspective:dizzy2:

Ok, then, so this information that I'm unaware of, what is it? He didn't shoot himself now?

Secondly, you're in no position to critisize anyone for a lack of perspective, and turning the accusations on me is just a cheap trick; a substitute for the lack of some form of arguent I guess.

This whole thing is a tragedy, but the most tragic part of it is how easily this could have been avoided if someone had noticed and understood how this guy felt.

Tribesman

11-07-2007, 23:08

Ok, then, so this information that I'm unaware of, what is it?
Errrrrr...he wanted his "martyrdom" to be an inspiration to others to start a worldwide revolution and be an eternal "hero" like Rebel and VoDKa .

Secondly, you're in no position to critisize anyone for a lack of perspective
Oh but I am , you are writing blind which gives me a far better perspective .

Innocentius

11-07-2007, 23:20

Errrrrr...he wanted his "martyrdom" to be an inspiration to others to start a worldwide revolution and be an eternal "hero" like Rebel and VoDKa .

Good, then I know. I wasn't aware that he intended to kill himself all along.

Oh but I am , you are writing blind which gives me a far better perspective .

Wow! That's just an amazing argument! "You're blind!" Come on, now, I at least realise he was just a troubled kid really, not some "sick ****", as you so delicately put it. It's easier to condemn than to forgive, let he who is without sin cast the first rock etc, such expressions come to my mind. Surely you must have better things to do (and feel) at the moment than hatred towards the perpetrator? It's not exactly going to help anyone if they know that some people out there dislikes that guy who shot some kids. I at least consider everyone who died in the shootings a tragic loss.

Husar

11-07-2007, 23:23

Errrrrr...he wanted his "martyrdom" to be an inspiration to others to start a worldwide revolution and be an eternal "hero" like Rebel and VoDKa .
The wuestion might be, why did he want that?

Maybe because he wasn't accepted the way he was before?

And no, I didn't read up on the story, it's an assumption but it seems to fit a whole lot of school shootings I heard about before.

Tribesman

11-07-2007, 23:25

Wow! That's just an amazing argument! "You're blind!" Come on, now,
:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

Innocentius

11-07-2007, 23:28

Tribesman: I don't normally ask this, since this puts me on just about the same level as the one I'm arguing with, but How old are you? Really?

And Husar hit the nail on the head.

Tribesman

11-07-2007, 23:41

Thats a hard question innocentiuos, it changes every year .:2thumbsup:

The wuestion might be, why did he want that?

Because he was a sick individual , he wanted other sick individuals to be posting "well done naturalselection 89, see you in paradise , that'll show the world" on the internet , and he got his wish (there were another 10 like that added in the few minutes since I last looked ).
Undoubtably by tomorrow he will be added to the video of "heroes" with his victims pictures posted as "Owned" .:dizzy2:
Now if that ain't a bunch of sick twisted ******** then I don't know what is . But hey you can call them troubled kids if you want Innocentious .

Boyar Son

11-08-2007, 00:29

saw some videos but i dont think he made it. its him in red with death music right?

Anyway what dumba**, twisted murderer or "bloody wanker" as some would say.

I heard he shot himself but didnt die at first, I guess thats retribution for this evil act. slow and painful.

And God help the victims.

Husar

11-08-2007, 00:57

AntiochusIII

11-08-2007, 01:36

Husar: What I think, and I'm no psychologist, is that there are a lot of sick people at all times and at least a few of them turn out to be capable of crossing that final line between merely sick (in an "ill" sense) to really sick.

It's just that school shootings have been popular lately. Nobody dare to admit it of course, but the more these news are gaining headlines, even with condemnations and condolences, the more they perpetrate this type of behavior.

We humans copy each other; the "sick" people won't like to admit it -- many are often socially isolated and become on the surface extremely individualistic -- but they are copying the actions of others, hoping to earn the same fame that those before them had "achieved." Teenagers, especially. Teenagers suck. :shame:

As to why school shootings and not mall shootings or military base shootings, I think it's because school is such a big part of a teenager's life -- and you know when you're going to explode and take revenge on society or whatever you tend to choose to do it where you spend most of your time outside the house.

Papewaio

11-08-2007, 01:58

Come on, now, I at least realise he was just a troubled kid really, not some "sick ****", as you so delicately put it. It's easier to condemn than to forgive, let he who is without sin cast the first rock etc, such expressions come to my mind.

He's an adult at 18 so his actions are his responsibility not societies. Its a social contract, he looks after others and others will look after him. Murdering for vain glory breaks any and all social contracts and leaves the judgement soley in his square. There are 'sick' individuals, sure society could have done more. If you want personal freedom then along comes personal responsibility. Expecting personal freedom and society to provide the responsibility is a recipe for disaster... quite possibly creating more of these issues.

For the Christian line of thought:
Render unto Caesar... thats not just taxes, its obeying the law. Might want to add in one of the ten big ones from OT of Though Shall not Murder.

ajaxfetish

11-08-2007, 02:07

It's just that school shootings have been popular lately. Nobody dare to admit it of course, but the more these news are gaining headlines, even with condemnations and condolences, the more they perpetrate this type of behavior.
I work at a school for autistic children. When the kids act up or misbehave (hitting, biting, spitting, throwing toys, screaming, etc.) our policy is to compliment all the children who are behaving properly and ignore the misbehavors, possibly putting them in a temporary time-out to put distance between them and others but otherwise giving them as little attention as possible. It's amazing how quickly most of them start shaping up. Attention is a great motivator for action, and for some people it makes no difference whether it's positive or negative attention. All they want is for people to focus on them. Given the media's interest in sensationalism, this does not bode well for the future of school shootings.

Ajax

Seamus Fermanagh

11-08-2007, 04:27

Tribes:

You really should explain WHY you think someone's argument is full of [e.d.] as opposed to just deriding it. You assume we'll all see it your way and join in laughing at that other's expense -- but not everyone in the audience gets your argumentative point. When you do take the time, as you've been kind enough to demonstrate when answering me a time or three, you do rather well.

Innocentius:

Tribes is calling you on moral relativism (as was Pappy) and I think he's making an excellent point. I use terms such as good and evil and bring a somewhat religious perspective to my use thereof. But even if you insist on removing those terms from our understanding [a discussion for another thread], your perspective, as expressed thus far, seems to suggest that any such behavior is only a difference in degree and is not abberant of itself. Tribesman, Pappy, and I are all of the opinion that this steps way beyond the pale and is qualitatively different -- and condemnable behavior.

Husar:

I'm interested in motivation only to the extent that understanding it helps us to identify and stop more of these events. The USA has had just as many reports of someone stopped (usually turned in by school mates) over the last 2-3 years as we have had tragedies. I don't know if those reports are being broadcast internationally, however, as the gory stuff sells more advertising.

Pannonian

11-08-2007, 04:39

Ah, the old "whatever-group-(I-think)-I-belong-to should rule" schtick. ~:rolleyes:
There is something to be said for apathy. The 'whatever-group-(I-think)-I-belong-to doesn't care if we rule or not' schtick. Perhaps the main reason why I can never significantly see myself in these people is because I never feel pro-active enough to do anything dramatic.

Gregoshi

11-08-2007, 04:58

The USA has had just as many reports of someone stopped (usually turned in by school mates) over the last 2-3 years as we have had tragedies.
There was a case of this in suburban Philadelphia just a few weeks ago. Apparently mom bought some guns for Junior who planned on taking out some bullies at school. A friend he tried to recruit went to the police with this information. Here's a link: Attack Foiled (http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20071012_Boys_arsenal__arrest_a_chilling_reminder.html)

Fragony

11-08-2007, 05:08

Why this reflex to understand the wicked? Nothing to it, suicide by massacre, may the selfish pos rot.

KukriKhan

11-08-2007, 06:06

Fascinating discussion on shooter motivation and societal responsibilities.

However, since this is a "breaking story" still, with details yet to emerge, and impacts on our own Org Finnish membership unassessed...

we'll close this for 24 hours, pending more informative details. Please do not start another thread on the same topic, as it will be summarily closed as well, for the same reasons.

Thread will re-open on or about 1300, GMT tomorrow.

Our heartfelt condolences to the victims and their families. :bow:

KukriKhan

11-09-2007, 03:24

Topic is reopened. Since the subject(s) raised involve themes that recur frequently here ("perpetually", some might say), I remind all to maintain forum decorum - play the ball (position), not the man.

Rodion Romanovich

11-09-2007, 13:32

Why was he sick? Was he born that way?

How can we stop people from becoming as sick as him in the future?
One day we might have 100 such sick guys every year, are we still just going to call them all sick and be done with it? :inquisitive:
I agree completely! Calling a criminal demon and being against all people who try to understand the causes of his crime, is very counter-productive and usually a good way of increasing the crime rates in the long run. I think that many of the people who are so scared or ashamed of admitting they have any trait in common with a criminal or madman, often do so because they are uncertain about their own sanity and scared beyond reason by the fact that they too could become "one of those", if put in the wrong environment.

Trying to understand the causes is - obviously - the first step towards being able to prevent the deeds from repeating, because only if you know the cause, can you remove it. Usually the cause is something that does not justify the crime completely (or at all), but usually it's also obvious, once you find the cause, that there's no justification at all for letting the cause remain. Look at a criminal who lives in misery and poverty despite hard, honest work, and therefore gets mad and kills a random stranger. He has no justification for killing a random stranger, but neither is there any justification for society to let hard-working honest men live in misery. To try and make hard working, honest men be rewarded, is not unethical, or a way of admitting victory of evil - it's to fight for victory of the good, for how can fighting for keeping of injustice, madness that then causes murder be good?

To start demonizing and advocating less understanding of the thought process of madmen, is to advocate more crime and decline of society. Then one's not very far from the Dark and Medieval ages, when a starving man who committed theft could be called a spawn of satan and hanged almost without trial. Or think of a family father, whose child is being bullied because of his poverty because he can't get new clothes. The child has enough clothes to guarantee his survival, but he did not choose to be born by the wrong parents, who despite hard work can't give him anything better. So when the father commits theft, even though he doesn't strictly need it for the survival of his child, he is not a demon either, even though the theft is a bad thing. That the thef is a bad thing doesn't prevent the cause behind his act - poverty and repression/slavery from the upper classes - from being unjustified, and something that should be fought.

In this particular case however, I find it very hard to find a cause/causes. That it's difficult to understand the thought process of this person is not a good thing. Then again, there are occasionally cases where the crime couldn't have been predicted or prevented, and the causes can only be traced back to phenomena whose existence is justified. This guy says he died for anti-democracy. But democracy is a good thing that is very much justified, and should if possibly be strengthened more rather than anything else. If this guy's words are true, then he is one of the few completely ununderstandable cases. But usually criminals are unable to see what their real fears are (if they didn't, they would be less likely to become criminals, by the way), so there may very well be other things behind this, and the whole speech he made is just a facade he has constructed for himself to hide his own uncertainty and feeling of weakness, which he was ashmed of.

Husar

11-09-2007, 14:13

Well, in the chat Kage said he was a bit of a social outcast and didn't have a very supportive family either. My guess is that he was angry at society because he got no love from anywhere, I know I sometimes got the feeling that noone in the world would ever support me and yes, it brings up the idea of "showing them" and "going in a big showdown", God only knows what had happened if my mom and dad wouldn't love me as much as they do(and well, if I hadn't believed in God). :shame:

It's always easy to be on a high horse and see this guy who is a bit different and noone likes him and then go and say he's a crazy nutter. If you think that will help the situation in any way, let me tell you it just makes it worse because the guy needs support, not even more people who tell him he's crazy.
There's probably a point somewhere beyond which the individual can hardly be helped anymore but before that point lies a lot of time during which the process in which he becomes crazy can be changed if some people stop kicking him while he is on the ground. I'm pretty sure that certain natural problems in the phase of puberty will also play into this, most people should know it can be a difficult phase for young people and if you make it even worse for them, you easily end up with a school shooting.

In the end, yes, there might have been another reason for this, but "he's a crazy nutter, forget him" is an extremely cheap way out, gives no explanation for how he is a nutter or why he is/was one and simply sounds like one doesn't care about social outcasts, it's almost like....fascism. ~;) :sweatdrop:

Tribesman

11-09-2007, 14:50

the guy needs support, not even more people who tell him he's crazy.

He was getting support , unfortunately it was from people who think that being a social outcast and going loopy with a gun will elevate you to "godlike" status like Harris and Klebold .

Fragony

11-09-2007, 14:59

It's always easy to be on a high horse and see this guy who is a bit different and noone likes him and then go and say he's a crazy nutter.

Being a bit different nobody likes doesn't make him a nutter, killing people makes him a nutter. So people picked on him awwwwwwwwwwwwww poor guy could have just smacked them. Why, on gods name, do we always have to blame it on society? This was a calculated act of the worst kind, what he did is nuts but not irrational, he planned it, taped it, did it. Society isn't perfect and it never will be and these things will always happen.

Husar

11-09-2007, 15:25

Why, on gods name, do we always have to blame it on society?

Society isn't perfect and it never will be and these things will always happen.
There, you answered it yourself. ~;)
Do you think it's bad to try to improve society?
If we don't blame society, we will get even more banning of computer games and other more or less irrelevant stuff, politicians will act on it, but they usually won't incvest money in things like a school psychologist or try to do something about bullying, no instead they will demonize this or that to appease their voting base and look like they're trying to improve things. :wall:

He was getting support , unfortunately it was from people who think that being a social outcast and going loopy with a gun will elevate you to "godlike" status like Harris and Klebold .
Yes, that's the problem, such lunatic groups are looking for people like him who got to the point of thinking that society has abandoned them. The solution might be to give him the feeling that society has not abandoned him. :idea2:
It might be worth a try. :sweatdrop:

Innocentius

11-09-2007, 15:29

He's an adult at 18 so his actions are his responsibility not societies.

He was just 18. That basically makes him a child. Perhaps you have been fortunate to have very mature company, classmates, relatives etc, but from personal experience, I can tell that an eighteen year old person is more a child than an adult. If he's legally an adult doesn't really matter, I'm not trying to absolve him from his guilt.

Tribes is calling you on moral relativism (as was Pappy) and I think he's making an excellent point. I use terms such as good and evil and bring a somewhat religious perspective to my use thereof. But even if you insist on removing those terms from our understanding [a discussion for another thread], your perspective, as expressed thus far, seems to suggest that any such behavior is only a difference in degree and is not abberant of itself. Tribesman, Pappy, and I are all of the opinion that this steps way beyond the pale and is qualitatively different -- and condemnable behavior.

Well, I can only disagree. I consider this behaviour condemnable, of course (although I don't condemn the person who commited these acts), but I don't consider this type of thing as abbarent. No actions are really different from any other actions from an objective point of view - I am of course subjective, since no one can ever be truly objective, and thus I consider these acts condemnable, although not abbarent.

Why this reflex to understand the wicked? Nothing to it, suicide by massacre, may the selfish pos rot.

Perhaps so that we might learn from it and learn how to prevent such things from happening again? If this guy had been understood, he would likely have recieved help in time.

Fragony

11-09-2007, 15:34

I don't understand and I like to keep it like that. There is no excuse. Not everyone is fit for life but most of them jump alone. Sad, yeah. But this is downright evil.

Prodigal

11-09-2007, 15:50

Why was he sick? Was he born that way?

How can we stop people from becoming as sick as him in the future?
One day we might have 100 such sick guys every year, are we still just going to call them all sick and be done with it? :inquisitive:
Very interesting question, identifying sociopaths would be a good way to start, psychopaths are more easily spotted for the obvious reason that they're violent. This is conjecture on my part but I'd suspect that your "average" school shooter would be a sociopath that simply took the leap and became a psychopath.

What to do about it? Well that's begs the question what makes a sociopath, don't know enough about that to comment, but I do think that brain implants may, (at least in the future), provide a viable solution. Implants are already being used in order to help people with depression, obviously the conditions are not the same, but if a brain implant can help alter peoples mood then surely the same technology could be employed in sociopaths. Essentially if a person felt good within themselves they would be less likely to pick up a gun & start killing people. It could bre argued that the same results can be obtained by taking drugs, but thats far to difficult to monitor.

Of course this isn't really any solution at all unless you're into forcing people to have implants stuck in their heads whether they like it or not.

Other than that, you have your run of the mill nut job, that would scare the bejesus out of any sane person within a few minutes of conversation, but that are regarded by the people around them as the local freak who merrily ignore the fact that the freak has access to fire arms.

Husar

11-09-2007, 16:00

I don't understand and I like to keep it like that. There is no excuse. Not everyone is fit for life but most of them jump alone. Sad, yeah. But this is downright evil.
Going by that logic, the victims weren't fit for life either (ohoh, how contrarian of me) since they bullied him to the point that he killed them, that's stupid isn't it? Oversimplified but there you go. It's all natural selection no need to worry. :dizzy2:

I'm not saying what he did was right, I'm saying some people bring it upon themselves and it may be preventable. Bullying someone to the point that he gets really desperate and hates you with a passion is a bit like this: :wizard:
Or this: :croc:

Fragony

11-09-2007, 16:07

pffffffffffffft feminication of society, if I have to blame it on society that would be it, looking down on violence in every form it comes. If you are bullied grab a piece of wood and whack them around the ears, bully's gone and the school psychologists has extra time to bake cakes. Creepy emo-nazi with some grandeur-complex, should have tried painting.

Husar

11-09-2007, 16:22

If you are bullied grab a piece of wood and whack them around the ears
Yeah, and that's when the teachers will smack down on the one who was bullied, making him feel even worse because he gets punished for defending himself, the wounds caused by bullying are hard to prove, unlike the ones caused by a piece of wood. Or in case you didn't notice, that's exactly what he did, just with another weapon. He effectively ended the bullying of 8 people, should make you happy now, he really showed everybody that he can strike back. :sweatdrop:

Gregoshi

11-09-2007, 16:22

Creepy emo-nazi with some grandeur-complex, should have tried painting.
Bad example Fragony. That didn't work for Hitler. :shrug:

Fragony

11-09-2007, 16:30

Bad example Fragony. That didn't work for Hitler. :shrug:

Thank you Gregoshi. He was actually quite a servicable painter,

http://www3.mpls.k12.mn.us/marcy/Heroes/Hitler/hitlers%20painting%232.jpg

Maybe this could all have been prevented, if Europe hadn't rejected him he wouldn't have had to conquer it, rejection hurts.

Gregoshi

11-09-2007, 16:38

Maybe this could all have been prevented, if Europe hadn't rejected him he wouldn't have had to conquer it, rejection hurts.
Which I think is in a similar vein to Husar's point: bullying = rejection (big time).
To Husar: are we sure the 8 victims were the bullies? Or were they convenient targets at the time?

At our local high school, a kid that was often picked on by others was found to have a "hit list" in his backpack. My daughter said everyone started treating him much nicer after that discovery. It is ashame that it has to come down to something that extreme. Kids can be quite mentally abusive to each other. :no:

Fragony

11-09-2007, 16:45

Which I think is in a similar vein to Husar's point: bullying = rejection (big time).

Indeed, it's a terrible thing. Jews should have saluted on the reichsdag imho, how would you feel if you throwed a party and nobody comes unless you force them? First they don't like his paintings, then they don't come on his party, and to make it even worse they bomb his reich, does amazing things to a man of such delicacy.

Soulforged

11-09-2007, 17:01

He was just 18. That basically makes him a child. Perhaps you have been fortunate to have very mature company, classmates, relatives etc, but from personal experience, I can tell that an eighteen year old person is more a child than an adult. If he's legally an adult doesn't really matter, I'm not trying to absolve him from his guilt.
On most real cases Innocentius it's the other way around, childs who act LIKE adults, and not legal adults that act like childs (if you heard of the number of cases, in my country, of 9 year old childs or even less that kill people coldly and without remorse, you'll be surprised). This person made his choice, he paid for it, others paid for it. Tragic yes, only a tragedy? No. There were a series of murders here, one person willingly killed other persons, he planned it and executed it. From a moral and legal point of view is there anything worse than that? How can anyone not call this "sick"? Perhaps he wasn't sick by a technical definition, because if he was he wouldn't be responsable of what he did (depending on the sickness, of course), but his actions are sick in another sense they're everything which is a society rejects, just like a sickness, and it seems to affect the whole world, the cause may vary, but the result is always the same, and it's called murder. In my opinion he wasn't sick and he's entirely responsable for what he did.

Well, I can only disagree. I consider this behaviour condemnable, of course (although I don't condemn the person who commited these acts), but I don't consider this type of thing as abbarent. No actions are really different from any other actions from an objective point of view - I am of course subjective, since no one can ever be truly objective, and thus I consider these acts condemnable, although not abbarent.So you condemn the act but not the actor? How can that be logically coherent. Condemnation is not a simple act of correlation, it has a cause, if you don't wanted this to happen you should get rid of the cause, and the first and most direct cause of this is the very same murderer. So, how can you empirically disjoint the whole scene? You can't, if you condemn the act, you condemn it as whole, with cause, otherwise there's no consequence. Why do people try to abstract this so much? Why contrive it to the point in which it turns more complicated than it needs to be? Also what do you mean by "abbarent", abhorrent...You don't think that his act is abhorrent? Then what is abhorrent? For you I mean, what will you consider abhorrent...

Rodion Romanovich

11-09-2007, 17:16

Indeed, it's a terrible thing. Jews should have saluted on the reichsdag imho, how would you feel if you throwed a party and nobody comes unless you force them? First they don't like his paintings, then they don't come on his party, and to make it even worse they bomb his reich, does amazing things to a man of such delicacy.

@Fragony, perhaps you forget that he was also beaten by his own dad since infanthood. Then he saw his country lose a war that was by many considered a justified revenge against Napoleon I and Napoleon III's unprovoked imperialistic raping and murdering in German lands during the previous century (though in all fairness, this was a somewhat propaganda-ish view by the Prussian imperialism), and they lost thanks to Britain cooperating with the French. Then he had to personally sign the humiliating peace treaty that would turn his own country into a poor, country where people were starving. He was called an incapable, weak and worthless leader by the military, and given a low rank, probably because he was shy, sensitive and uncertain by his childhood traumas. He may have been bullied at school. He was then rejected from art academy. At the same time, communist dictatorship was threatening to invade and take over his country from the east. That he went mad is not surprising. Unluckily, the scale of his version of "school shooting" happened to become larger than anything else of that kind in history, and above all not many (if any at all) of those he ordered to be killed had anything to do with his suffering. His deeds are not justifiable, and he did not suffer nearly as much as those that his own deeds hurt. But we know the causes behind his madness were things that nobody should have to suffer, and it's not so difficult to prevent such an endless series of rejections, insults, bullying, claims of worthlessness and weakness from occuring. So, Fragony: do you seriously think we should have a society were many people grow up with a childhood similar to Hitler's? And where many people then, as a natural consequence of this, end up doing such horrible things, just because "society can't be perfect"? Do you think that acoholic fathers beating their children since infanthood is something society shouldn't try to prevent, but is something that we will have to live with? And that those who have been beaten by their fathers since infanthood shouldn't receive special help later in life, to help them get through the trauma instead of going mad?

And please refrain from nazistic statements such as accusing the Jews for making Hitler mad.

Finally, if it's true that this school shooter shot his bullies and not random innocent people, then he's not comparable to Hitler (who killed millions of innocents) in any way, not even if you abstract away the significantly different death tolls and only count their motivations and line of thought.

When it comes to understanding the individual who committed a crime, once the has committed it, that's another matter. You can't reward a man who just killed plenty of people because he felt bad, by starting to listen to him after he committed the crime. But the lack of understanding in that aspect is not the same as saying the causes of the crime shouldn't be investigated and eliminated if possible. Because most of the time, the cause of the crime is not a good thing that we want to keep. Most of the time it's misery, pain, fear and injustice.

Just out of curiosity, Fragony, do you come from a protected childhood in an upper middle class or upper class family?

Fragony

11-09-2007, 18:54

Just out of curiosity, Fragony, do you come from a protected childhood in an upper middle class or upper class family?

Yes, not a worry in the world, money enough, lots of friends, goodlooking lots of girlfriends the whole deal I am lucky indeed, so why does that excuse me for being the idiot I tend to be from time to time? That works two ways.

Back at you, assuming you aren't a emo-nazi planning to massacre your fellow students or conquering europe, all the excuses you are making would you allow them for yourselve?

Rodion Romanovich

11-09-2007, 19:41

Yes, not a worry in the world, money enough, lots of friends, goodlooking lots of girlfriends the whole deal I am lucky indeed, so why does that excuse me for being the idiot I tend to be from time to time? That works two ways.

Then I find it interesting that you are so quick to judge people as weak because they budge under a pressure that you have never experienced yourself. Perhaps you should try to experience a bit of it yourself? Just remember that you need to remove all perceptions that it is an experiment, and that you need to accumulate the fear, hatred and stress over a period of over 5-10 years before the effects start to show. You must also logistically and economically remove all your capabilities of avoiding the people that you end up bullied by, so that you have no means of avoiding battle. You must also make sure all neutral parts in the fight consistently judge you as the offender, even when you're the victim. Finally, you must lose contact with almost all people that give you any form of support at all - your parents, your friends, and be betrayed by some of those you trusted the most etc etc. Then afterwards perhaps you can come back and report here in 5-10 years what your conclusions are. If you still support keeping as many problems as possible in society, rather than solving them? Because I'm not sure I quite understand what you're trying to advocate here: less understanding of suffering, prohibition of research about the causes of crime, and increasing the suffering for the lower and lower middle classes in society, and thus also cause more crime?

Back at you, assuming you aren't a emo-nazi planning to massacre your fellow students or conquering europe, all the excuses you are making would you allow them for yourselve?
I'm afraid I can't parse the grammar of this sentence. Perhaps you could try writing it down again? But if you mean what I guess you mean, then my answer is "cause is not equal to justification/excuse". You can hate crime (and demonize criminals) all you want, but that won't stop crimes from being committed.

As for conquering Europe, maybe you should try EB :wink:

Fragony

11-09-2007, 19:53

Rodion Romanovich

11-09-2007, 20:04

Sure, all the circumstances you are describing, and I take it you know what you are talking about, would that press you into doing the same thing this guy did yourselve? Or do you have something called a sense of decency and a respect for life that would prevent you from slaughtering people that have nothing to do with it in the first place?
If I had been through what I describe above during the most hormone-filled years of teenagehood, with a non-zero probability I would indeed have gone mad, yes. There's luckily still a quite low probability that someone will suffer all of those things at the same time, which is why school shootings are still comparatively uncommon, but it happens from time to time.

If you think you're different, then I think that you are either an incredible exception and a great Messiah morally superior to every other human being on this earth, or that you're too naive or inexperienced to be entirely truthful to yourself.

Again I ask you: what exactly is it you want? Less understanding, more crime and worse society? Because by the sound of your posts it's exactly what you're advocating, and this is why I keep replying because I'm hoping to gain an understanding for the cause behind this thought of yours. I ask you: do you wish to live in a society where people who work hard are rewarded for it by becoming richer, and the people who did not become quite as rich respect the rich, and the rich are able to live without enclosing their homes in fences, watchdogs and alarms and sit like in prisons. Or do you want a society where the poor are depressed and desperate, hate the rich, and anyone slightly above lower lower class may fear, at any time, being assaulted by a man who goes postal, or through a burglary or theft losing almost everything he has tried to build up during his life? Is there ANY advantage you gain by less understanding of the causes of crime?

Seamus Fermanagh

11-09-2007, 20:28

Fragony

11-09-2007, 20:43

Again I ask you: what exactly is it you want? Less understanding, more crime and worse society?

I want no less then the very best for every human and non-human being on the planet, but that ain't realistic, and thinking that there is a world where these things don't happen isn't very realistic either. There are things that are rotten, not necesarily evil, Hitler thought he was doing the right thing for example, and he didn't do it for himselve, but he did horrible things nevertheless.

Husar

11-10-2007, 01:43

To Husar: are we sure the 8 victims were the bullies? Or were they convenient targets at the time?
Don't think so, I guess at some point he went really nuts and hated almost everybody.

My comment came from what I heard about other school shootings where the shooters told people who were nice to them not to come or to leave the building before the massacre started. I seriously doubt a complete nutter would want to save anyone. Of course this is easily overlooked once they find a copy of Counterstrike on his computer... :no:

Rodion Romanovich

11-10-2007, 08:42

"Understanding" such shooters. Neither Fragony, nor I, nor anyone else posting so far is arguing that no effort should be expended to understand such shooters. Even if it is simply to improve our ability to detect such threats and prevent same, some effort has to be made.

However, some of you are going beyond knowledge acquisition and trying to assert that I should empathize with such an individual. This is more troubling to me, and a goal with which I am not in complete agreement. I have no wish to empathize with the leader of a racist lynch-mob, with a rapist, or -- in this case -- a mass murderer. Such acts go beyond "wrong" or "illegal" and embody what I term evil.

In that case WE (you and I, and not Fragony) are in agreement, because I don't empathize with the criminal either when he has committed such a crime. As I repeatedly stated: scientific/philosophical understanding/modeling of the cause ≠ empathic understanding.

What made me enter this discussion was Fragony's rather provocative repeated statements with a complaint against understanding in general, without any more specific attributes to the word understanding. This naturally looked like a statement against all forms of understanding, which is why I would look to find out for sure if that's really what he meant. And apparently, judging from his latest few post, it is what he meant.

Rodion Romanovich

11-10-2007, 09:07

I want no less then the very best for every human and non-human being on the planet, but that ain't realistic, and thinking that there is a world where these things don't happen isn't very realistic either. There are things that are rotten, not necesarily evil, Hitler thought he was doing the right thing for example, and he didn't do it for himselve, but he did horrible things nevertheless.
I think it's impossible to avoid such crimes altogether, but we can affect how many of them happen, how often, and with how huge consequences. It is a trivial observation that among all possible scenarios, there is one scenario that causes less or equal amount of death and suffering than all other possible scenarios. This is the scenario we should strive for. Due to the incompetence of some human minds, and the problem with people who are against all forms of improvement of society, and rather prefer to be 1% richer and living in constant fear of crime, than solving most of the crime problems in society, it will be difficult to get there too. But even so, we still have a capability of greatly varying the outcome by what decisions we make.

General attitude in society, game theory, and system theory, takes us a long way in the right direction. If you look at the 50ies, 60ies and first half of the 70ies, we had the right attitude - having just gone through a devastating world war, the thought on everybody's mind when they had nothing in particular to think about, was peace, stability and caring for the individual. Evilness was uncool, being ridiculous and different was tolerated. The society systems strived for providing good social security for everybody, so that the game theory optimal course of action for each person would always be something far from crime. Crime rates were low, and in many places people didn't even have to lock their doors to their houses, because there was no need to.

Now we have the opposite: people claiming society can't be perfect so therefore we should let it get really, really bad deliberately, rather than making it as good as it can get. People valuing evilness with strength over good with weakness. Maximizing personal achievements through intrigue, semi-criminal and unethical acts, and not peace and stability, is the thought on everybody's mind when they have nothing in particular to think of. In such a society there's no wonder people think they do the "right" or "cool" thing when they choose evilness over good.

I bet we will see an increase in school shootings as long as there are so many people in denial of the development our societies are going through at the moment. And each time such a crime happens, some person who doesn't understand the consequences of his actions screams that he hates all people who try to understand the cause behind the deed and call them as big demons as the criminal, which step by step makes more and more of the good people who strive for decrease of the crime to go silent out of fear or shame that their hard work for truth, justice and freedom may in fact be harmful, rather than what it truly is: a struggle for peace, enlightenment and the victory of good over evil.

Fragony

11-10-2007, 09:49

We will see a rise in schoolshooting because it is the current hype for crybaby's to go berserk in schools. All that social constructivist lingo sounds great but you are applying it on the exceptions that make the rule. Most crybaby's don't go berserk in schools after all. It's as good as it gets and some are whack.

Rodion Romanovich

11-10-2007, 09:56

Most crybaby's don't go berserk in schools after all. It's as good as it gets and some are whack.
Why do you think that is? Perhaps because these "crybabies" who had bad childhoods are given special help programs that have been possible to develop only because we recognized that a lot of bad guys actually have had bad childhoods and problematic conditions in their background before they go nuts.

Another problem people like you are causing is that people who feel they're turning mad and feel they need help don't dare to ask for help in a peaceful way, because they fear they will not be taken seriously because their own suffering is too small compared to what suffering they want to inflict on others. All investigations show that people who go through suffering incidents where each incident is small, if it goes on over a long enough period of time, and the type of the suffering is related to undermined self-control and self-confidence, the risk of losing contact with reality goes quite high while the chances of preventing madness, if help is given at an early enough time (BEFORE any crime is committed), are extremely high as well.

So when people like you scream for less understanding and demonizing of anyone who has ever had thoughts along the line of violence - caused by a long period of pressure and fear, the only effect is that a lot of people who have relatively minor problems refuse to ask for help in time because they fear that if they ask for help when their suffering is still so small they will not be taken seriously, or be demonized (because "they budge under so little pressure"), even if they haven't yet committed any crime that justifies any such judgement or demonization. As a result, relatively minor traumas are developed into complete raving madness, and a few years later, something bad happens. Not until after the crime is committed, is rehabilitation attempted, but rehabilitation AFTER crime only works in a few percent of the cases.

The fact that most bullying cases are not taken seriously in schools, and the massive globalization and urbanization makes many individuals be lost in the masses so nobody can discover their problems, does not exactly help reducing crime rates. As room and time for the individual decreases, we need to find other ways of not forgetting these people - but seeing them already at an early stage in their development. And let's also think about all the other suffering that these problems cause! How many people go around in our society today only just on the right side of the line between sanity and madness? Should their sufferings be ignored? Against them you clearly can't apply the judgement you can apply to the person who has crossed the line.

A Pangloss-style view of society like yours is IMO pretty cowardly denial, and not in good contact with reality. In my experience a lot of people who are claiming society is as good as it gets or "the best of all possible worlds", are people who have a troubled conscience, knowing they have attacked many innocent people and are afraid that if/when they lose the power/strength that allowed them to screw others, they would be at the mercy of someone they showed no mercy or understanding. Pangloss-style deniers are thus people who, like the murderer in Tuusula, care little for the suffering and death of innocent people who have not committed any crime towards either society or other people.

Fragony

11-10-2007, 10:12

So? So they had a bad childhood. Many people do. I don't care why they do it, they know that what they do is wrong and do it anyway, the act is all there is for me.

are people who have a troubled conscience, knowing they have attacked many innocent people and are afraid that if/when they lose the power/strength that allowed them to screw others, they would be at the mercy of someone they showed no mercy or understanding.

Why would I want to screw others? I have absolutilyno drive to do so. I judge everyone by the same standards, be it a exploding muslim or a whacked out emo-nazi

Rodion Romanovich

11-10-2007, 10:16

So? So they had a bad childhood. Many people do. I don't care why they do it, they know that what they do is wrong and do it anyway, the act is all there is for me.
The people who have similarly bad childhoods and are then screwed by people repeatedly during their lives, and by the society system, but that DON'T commit crimes against others, do you think they should continue to suffer as well?

Rodion Romanovich

11-10-2007, 10:21

they know that what they do is wrong and do it anyway
Indeed, they know what they do is wrong and do it anyway. So, has it occured to you then, that it doesn't help to scream even louder that what they do is wrong? Everybody already knows a murder is a tragedy. You may as well go to the sea and ask it to lower its level, because screaming an obvious truism over and over again won't stop the crimes from being committed. And it won't stop the crimes from being committed if you go around and scream that all work that is done to decrease crime rates is worthless and the people who do it are demons. If you think you're so much better than everybody else at decreasing crime rates, then what is your magical proposal? To scream louder to the criminals?
:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

Rodion Romanovich

11-10-2007, 10:23

Why would I want to screw others? I have absolutilyno drive to do so. I judge everyone by the same standards, be it a exploding muslim or a whacked out emo-nazi
Then why are you so afraid of trying to prevent all these people from committing their crimes? Why do you hate crime prevention?

Fragony

11-10-2007, 10:35

Indeed, they know what they do is wrong and do it anyway. So, has it occured to you then, that it doesn't help to scream even louder that what they do is wrong? Everybody already knows a murder is a tragedy. You may as well go to the sea and ask it to lower its level, because screaming an obvious truism over and over again won't stop the crimes from being committed. And it won't stop the crimes from being committed if you go around and scream that all work that is done to decrease crime rates is worthless and the people who do it are demons. If you think you're so much better than everybody else at decreasing crime rates, then what is your magical proposal? To scream louder to the criminals?
:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

In the case of classical criminals, yep, scream louder. In the case of whacked emo-nazi's, can't be prevented. So I am not going to bother with that.

Rodion Romanovich

11-10-2007, 10:41

In the case of classical criminals, yep, scream louder. In the case of whacked emo-nazi's, can't be prevented. So I am not going to bother with that.
Amazing indeed, that it would be that easy to decrease crime rates, and that all serious research within the field has failed to discover this! Perhaps the same could be applied to prevent wars? :idea2: And then you would be a given candidate for the next Nobel Peace Price :dizzy2:
:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

Fragony

11-10-2007, 10:50

Rodion Romanovich

11-10-2007, 10:56

pfffft serious research, the psychologist will explain it from the psychology, the sociologie from the sociology, nothing but academic tunnelvision. And yes screaming louder can be used to prevent wars, happens every day it's called diplomacy. Gimme.
Hm, so what you're claiming is what we really should have used against Hitler and Stalin was throat lozenges? :inquisitive:

pfffft serious research, the psychologist will explain it from the psychology, the sociologie from the sociology, nothing but academic tunnelvision.

If you're so sure you can do better, why don't you? Why hold your great knowledge and intellect away from society, that so obviously needs your help, if it's indeed true that you're capable of providing what you claim?

Fragony

11-10-2007, 11:02

Maybe we should have used you

Rodion Romanovich

11-10-2007, 11:05

Maybe we should have used you
I'm not the one who is making a claim to be superior to all researchers.

Fragony

11-10-2007, 11:10

I'm not the one who is making a claim to be superior to all researchers.

//looks around, who is? :inquisitive:

I have, unlike some, little pretentions. Intellectualism isn't really my thing, I leave that to those more interested in that sort of wizardry.

Rodion Romanovich

11-10-2007, 11:15

//looks around, who is? :inquisitive:

I have, unlike some, little pretentions. Intellectualism isn't really my thing, I leave that to those more interested in that sort of wizardry.
Good, at least there's something we agree about.

And perhaps I'll just have to agree to disagree with you, and accept that you disagree with my opinions that:
- society should be improved when possible
- suffering among innocents is bad
- having no means of avoiding to forgetting individuals, is bad
- understanding the cause of bad things is a good way of preventing them from happening
- criminals are best rehabilitated before they even get close to becoming criminals, i.e. helped at an early stage
- supporting things that will increase crime, is bad to do
- freedom, justice and safety of the citizen are virtues to strive for

Fragony

11-10-2007, 11:22

http://home.quicknet.nl/qn/prive/h.dillen/images/ambulance.gif

Tribesman

11-10-2007, 15:20

Indeed, they know what they do is wrong and do it anyway
D
Do they though ?
Going by what the schoolshooters write themselves and what their adoring fans write they think it is not only right they think it is a perfectly acceptable course of action .

Ironside

11-10-2007, 18:00

http://home.quicknet.nl/qn/prive/h.dillen/images/ambulance.gif

:inquisitive:
Not really related to the topic, but either that image is false, or someone really screwed up with the letters.

Innocentius

11-10-2007, 18:12

No, the letters are supposed to be that way.

Papewaio

11-11-2007, 01:58

The letters are done like that so you can read it in your rear view mirror.

Fragony

11-12-2007, 13:12

D
Do they though ?
Going by what the schoolshooters write themselves and what their adoring fans write they think it is not only right they think it is a perfectly acceptable course of action .

Quite disturbing yeah. All the more reason to take it at face value instead of giving the sadistic *&*^& a stage, even a hint of legitimacy is the wrong signal, that is why this is a dangerous discussion.

Husar

11-12-2007, 15:04

Do they though ?
Going by what the schoolshooters write themselves and what their adoring fans write they think it is not only right they think it is a perfectly acceptable course of action .
That's because they became nutters at some point I guess.
There are lots of people who can be made to believe something very strongly and to the deepest depth of their heart, I wouldn't call all of them nutters but think about religion.
Radicalisation has to start somewhere though, haven't seen anyone born a radical. Once you find lots of people who support your weird views while it seems like the rest just hates you or doesn't care about you, you're almost lost, radicalisation will seem like the only viable option since you don't want to give in to those who hate you(or who you think hate you, it's a bit hard to tell at times).