View Full Version : Creative Assembly !!!!!!!!Gil!!!!!!!! No game balanceing yet....
1dread1lahll
09-12-2002, 07:10
I saw your post on what needs changing but felt I needed to post again.... As to all the multi-play room..Yes..
To game balanceing..I saw many posts on fatigue, Fatigue is a MANAGEMENT issue not a balance issue. Yes its different from shogun but, to reduce it is to reduce the level of skill needed to play the game...Vets will make the adjustments and play with greater skill than newbies, reduce it and newbies need not gain any skills in fatigue management to win even aginst the best players. Fatigue is the same for all, learn to manage it people and you will be better for it..
I saw lots of post on cav....Cav now are far better than Shogun with deep and rich tactical abilities, But they do require skill, knowledge, and the ability to manage these abilities. Most people seem to want cheap, fast, heavy cav that can mow down spears in a frountal rush. To allow that would toss away the uses of the med, and light cav. People! learn the uses and limitation of units, Heavy cav out fight other cav, its not faster, if it can mow down anything piss away the skill needed to play the game.
It is too early is discuss balancing, and when it is done it needs the imput from the ENTIRE community and not just the dozen or so people posting. If done at this stage the risk is to great of a few people "pushing" the game in the direction of their playing style, and not real balance.
I second that.
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tootee the goldfish,
headmaster of Shogun-Academy (http://shogun-academy.tripod.com)
loyal roach of Clan S.G. (http://thesilvergazwa.tripod.com)
'Pa Si Buay Chao! Si Liao Ka Song!'
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I sort of agree - with things like Fatigue it's not so much it needs to be changed so much as we, the players, would like the ability to CHOOSE the overall speed at which Fatigue is applied to all units in the game - a simple slider with options for 0% (fatigue off), 25%, 50%, 75%, and Full (the way it is now when enabled) would solve this issue in the best manner as it allows all of us players to be happy with a certain setting.
I also feel no units need to be changed as every unit has plenty of adequate counters and the whole Valour system means that almost any other unit, given enough valour, should be able to take out any base-Valour0 unit. In other words, it's all dependent on what type of armies are fielded and that is exactly how it is in real life warfare.
Btw, where did Gil post a list of changes being made? I'd like to read that post.
edit -
I also just added a bunch more info and detail in a post in this thread: http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/Forum7/HTML/001471.html
[This message has been edited by JRock (edited 09-12-2002).]
ElmarkOFear
09-12-2002, 09:55
The game fatigue-wise is good as it stands. And from what I have seen, there is not an overpowering unit type in the game. So I must agree with Lahll on this one. Save yourself some time and trouble and leave any of these unit tweaks out until the add-on is made. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Well that's an interesting idea to wait for the add-on for the tweaks, but I hope LongJohn is still with them because we all know what happend with WE/MI v1.0.
The thing I noticed about the fatigue in MTW is that it significantly increases the length of time to fight a big 3v3 or 4v4 battle. It's easy enough to manage fatigue. It just takes time.
I don't agree that all the units are equally useful now, and that will never happen. However, the better balanced the units are, the more of them you will see used online. You're seeing a lot of variety now because people don't know what to take, but that won't continue. Some variety is ensured because of each factions unique units.
[This message has been edited by Puzz3D (edited 09-12-2002).]
GilJaysmith
09-12-2002, 13:43
Longjohn is playing the game against people online, and I presume the changes he's considering are based on how his experiences are at variance with how he envisioned the battles working.
Reading his other posts, I would say that he's rejecting a lot of the changes people have suggested, including changes to the fatigue system. So I don't think you need to worry about the game balance being thrown off by a vocal minority.
I certainly didn't get the impression, from the three minor changes he's thinking about right now, that cavalry will be able to defeat spears from the front... it sounds like the change will help swordsmen more than cav.
Gil ~ CA
MagyarKhans Cham
09-12-2002, 17:31
the crashes and lock ups should be solved first.
and there is the responsibilitiy for every game veteran not to misuse the unbalanced troops for his sole victories....
Gil, the changes will include buffs for the swordsmen? GREAT! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
It is outrageous that spears will win in equal setups.
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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
Quote Originally posted by MagyarKhans Cham:
and there is the responsibilitiy for every game veteran not to misuse the unbalanced troops for his sole victories....[/QUOTE]
You're going to have to speak up and explain what units you think are so unbalanced, because it's silly to make a comment like that when I can't think of many units that everyone always uses. And if there are certain units that are more effective than others, they tend to cost more, which balances it out.
For example, I haven't used Swiss Armoured Pikemen in over a week. I've learned more cost-effective horse defense. Just because everyone loves to load up on SAPikemen doesn't mean they are unbalanced - they aren't - they have an extremely high cost to offset their prowess on the field and they're slow.
[This message has been edited by JRock (edited 09-12-2002).]
MagyarKhans Cham
09-12-2002, 19:53
its a quote for those who have discovered a nice unbalanced issue with a unit or some and use the unit(s) to there max in every game they play, just becuz of teh fun of winning.
so if u dont know whats it is about then it is not ment to be a message for u.
Quote Originally posted by JRock:
You're going to have to speak up and explain what units you think are so unbalanced, because it's silly to make a comment like that when I can't think of many units that everyone always uses. And if there are certain units that are more effective than others, they tend to cost more, which balances it out.
For example, I haven't used Swiss Armoured Pikemen in over a week. I've learned more cost-effective horse defense. Just because everyone loves to load up on SAPikemen doesn't mean they are unbalanced - they aren't - they have an extremely high cost to offset their prowess on the field and they're slow.
[This message has been edited by JRock (edited 09-12-2002).][/QUOTE]
Who said anything about SAPikemen? Just pump up some basic spearmen and pikemen for the same effect for a lot cheaper... Failing that go for the Ordered Foot or various sergeant units for a 1/3 price SAPikemen, in fact any spear or polearm based army is undoubtably the most cost effective and all round strongest army out there.
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=MizuDoc Otomo=
Sanpedrito
09-12-2002, 20:42
I agree !!!
JRock,
You're seeing a lot of variety now because the process of sorting out the best units for the money is not complete. The only reason I routinely take swordsmen units is out of habit carried over from WE/MI where they were worth their cost. Your comment about not using swiss armored pikemen is exactly to the point. I don't use them either because with that unit you can just look at the stats and see they are not cost efficient. The warrior monk was only out of balance by 10% to 15% costwise, and yet it became the dominant unit in STW.
LongJohn said in another thread that a 10% accuracy in unit balance is good in his opinion. I think human players are good at taking advantage of an imbalance of that size, and, if a player is highly skilled and taking advantage of that imbalance, you have to follow the same path to be competative with him. You don't have to work the cost system to that extent, but, if you don't, you'll probably find that you are not competative with top players who do.
Well the fact of the matter is no matter how much is changed, eventually there will still always be certain units most of us will prefer for certain tactics.
So no matter what is changed, unless they continuously release patches that change unit stats every time, people will figure out the most cost-effective units and use them.
Super-balancing the game just makes all the units equally useless and boring. Might as well only have one type of each unit variety - one spear, one sword, one cav, and one missile unit if they're all going to be equally balanced.
Since such a thing would never happen, there will indeed always be certain units that prove most effective in one form or another and once everyone figures those out, everyone will once again be fielding similar armies (although at least now there are a bunch of different factions that each have unique units so that helps with variety a little bit.)
So, again, unless they continually change unit stats to keep us on our toes, players will eventually determine what the best units are to make up the most effective Attack and most effective Defend armies. It's just the way it is.
Half of the reason for that is all the units' stats being so easily and readily accessible. At least if all the stats were hardcoded into the game and not in a readable format, people would be in the dark as to which units REALLY excelled because they wouldn't be able to prove it with numbers taken from the game's unit stat files. And since random chance ensures that no unit will always win every encounter, as soon as someone defeats a supposedly-superior army, people would doubt that army's effectiveness and not everyone would want to use it.
Hmm, this is a long-winded way of saying a simple point, but oh well. =)
well, i use the best units i can get, so mag i guess im 1 of the guys u mentioned! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
...but if 4 units wich save me 169 florin (each) should be the prob, LOL... so i will dont use 676 florin!
so it should be fair again http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
i posted this unbalance already, but its like stw ----monks and mi---guns or nc....or the cheap cavarcher!
i dont think there are so big unbalanced units wich always grant a vict, but i personal try to exploid the system and test everything i can think about.
and lahll, ur right here.... if u use ur units wise u can handle the fatique.
its just a bit different to shogun, thats all...
koc
MagyarKhans Cham
09-12-2002, 23:01
Howl Orlok
but will u use all your knowledge in a nice 4 vs 4 with average skilled people or even newbees.
Your knowledge of the units is already wellknown within the clan, and as with all knowledge it should be used wisely http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
JRock,
I agree with what you are saying except that I don't believe balanced units render similar types redundant. We have 4 cav types in WE/MI and they each serve a different purpose without any one of them dominating the game. Even no-dachi and warrior monks which are both swordsmen are different enough that they are best used in a slightly different way. There is a large variety of attributes to each unit in the stats, so, for instance, all the swordsmen don't have to be the same just because they are balanced.
There are a large number of units in MTW which will make some essentially copies of some other units. Within a given type it doesn't really matter if they are balanced costwise unless you are trying to make a mini rock, paper, scissors system within that type. You'll just take the best one of those copycat units. If they were perfectly balanced, you could take any one of them. However, balance across types in a rock, paper, scissors system is essential for the gameplay to work as intended.
Quote Originally posted by Puzz3D:
I agree with what you are saying except that I don't believe balanced units render similar types redundant. We have 4 cav types in WE/MI and they each serve a different purpose [/QUOTE]
Right, but in MTW we have about 8 different heavy knights, 6 different light cav, 4-5 archer cav, and whatever else. If everything becomes over-balanced, they all become redundant and pointless and so essentially there's no need to have all of them.
I would hate to see that. I enjoy variety and the little intricacies that make one unit of heavy cav maybe cost slightly less but have different stats that sort of keep it in a general balance with the other heavy cav units.
But it'd be cool if, for example among the heavy cav, one Order of Knights (Hospitallier maybe) was slightly better at charging, while another Order of Knights (Santiago maybe) was slightly better at defense, etc etc. Until even the 3-4 special Crusade orders of knights, (which are all available in Multiplayer Late period) which all happen to cost the same and have the same stats currently I think, could still be slightly different in stats while maintaining the same price, thus creating more variety in the units in the game.
Because right now I see no point in ever using the special crusader orders of knights. They cost a ton and they're all identical in stats. Be more creative - keep the costs the same but give each one a different stat they excel at slightly over the other orders, thus making each one slightly unique and useful in different situations.
See, even if all heavy-armor knights cost the same, they could each excel at a different ability or stat, thus creating an enjoyable variety of units to choose from at the same cost.
I think part of the problem is the whole cost thing - CA has created the units not only different by abilities but also different by cost even among units of the same general type.
If units of each type were balanced slightly more by cost, and each given different abilities they slightly excelled at, perhaps that would offer less chance for people to "cheat the system" by focusing on prices to eek out an extra unit here, or more leftover florin there to spend on unit upgrades.
Also perhaps working with rounder pricing numbers to start with would make it much easier to see and calculate imbalances and balances among the units.
[This message has been edited by JRock (edited 09-12-2002).]
May I add that knowing the "unbalanced" army is one thing. Do you think its easy to pull that off for the average players? Maybe Koc think they are "unbalanced" cos he kept winning with them. But he overlooked that tactics and overall control wins the days. And he is good at it, so the army is really not so "unbalanced" in the hands of the less beings? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/eek.gif
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tootee the goldfish,
headmaster of Shogun-Academy (http://shogun-academy.tripod.com)
loyal roach of Clan S.G. (http://thesilvergazwa.tripod.com)
'Pa Si Buay Chao! Si Liao Ka Song!'
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i just try to help nothin else!
[This message has been edited by Kocmoc (edited 09-12-2002).]
MagyarKhans Cham
09-13-2002, 12:29
sadly i must state that some people showed our Khan the unbalanced things and its sad but they are just too much unbalanced.
tootee, to help u. our Khan is convinced that the moderate newbee will beat the unaware veteran with it.
wolves will never kee this information for themselves but releasing it now in the forums will bring this into the wrong hands. and we have the ashi rushes back on teh field.
the info is handed over to gil and will be handed over to lj very soon.
Lahl basicly ur right but believe me it should be changed, tactics wont work on this one(s). if ur not convinced u could get a demo-game online with our beloved clan-researcher.
Quote Originally posted by MagyarKhans Cham:
sadly i must state that some people showed our Khan the unbalanced things and its sad but they are just too much unbalanced.[/QUOTE]
Spit it out - tell us what's so unbalanced so we can experiment to see if we find them unbalanced also so we can see if we agree with your claims.
MagyarKhans Cham
09-13-2002, 21:23
there is no need to do that, itw ill spoil the games the next weeks, till it get patched. or u believe our Khan and the one who showed it to him and u accept that the knowlegde is handed over to the devs.... or u dont.
there are more smart people online so eventually teh majority will notice the misbalances.
1dread1lahll
09-13-2002, 21:37
The need for a patch in multiplay room is urgent, its really getting to be a distraction....the need for unit balance, is less apparent, less urgent, and more prone to errors if done in haste, thus I feel first do the "bug" patch...then the balance patch; the balance patch is likely to take more time to be done well, more imput from more players will produce better results; (but that takes time), And i think everyone is really getting annoyed with the room.. last night I get only 1 game in in 2 hours due to lockups drops ect before I just gave up. (The map editor looks nice).
Balancing is an iterative process. You can't do it in one pass. It's possible there will only be two patches. My understanding is that GilJaysmith is working on the foyer problems and LongJohn works on the gameplay balance. So, I don't think one is taking away from the other.
MagyarKhans Cham
09-13-2002, 23:20
:o)
depends if they scratch each others back when one get stressy
Red Inquisition
09-13-2002, 23:41
Will the unit balancing have an effect on SP as well as MP? The units seem to me to be done for SP balance not MP balance. SP balance has more going on than just unit stats and buying cost like MP does. SP has to balance upkeep as well as starting positions, religion and relitive power per start period.
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***Metalpriest***
"Bringing the Faith of Metal to the boyband Heathins"
Red Inquisition,
It would affect single player, but I think there are only going to be some minor tweaks. Human players have the capacity to get a lot of mileage out of even small imbalances in the combat effectiveness vs cost ratio.
Red Inquisition
09-14-2002, 00:20
I agree with that. What i'm worried about is that the units get balanced for MP thus screwing up SP. The main part of this game and the poeple who use it are playing SP. Don't screw with SP because the MP people want balance.
I play both SP and MP. Ideally it would be nice if there was perfect balance on both sides. This is not easy to say the least.
I do think that CA will do a good job on the patch. If the quality of the existing game and their posts here are any indication.
[This message has been edited by Red Inquisition (edited 09-13-2002).]
MagyarKhans Cham
09-14-2002, 00:35
but if my Khan plays the guy in a 1 vs 1 with a balanced army and had not the slightest chance of winning the game, and even a kill ratio of 2:1 with on his part doing nothing really wrong than i would say there are some misbalances.
dont tweak them now, but if not tweaked ever we have new ashi power amongst us, although yet just available for a few and eventually for all of us.
first bugs than balances
Red Inquisition
09-14-2002, 00:52
I'm not saying that the units stats should not be tweaked. They should. Both MP and SP are important. I'm just saying don't screw up the SP part because of the MP parts.
It would be best if the mp stats and the sp stats could be different.
youssof_Toda
09-14-2002, 01:41
If some ppl actually care about spending hours behind their computer to create some sort of 'supertweaked' armies then that's their choice. I personally don't care about that kind of players I jst like (since I have very few time for online play) a nice 3v3/4v4 and make some fun.
1dread1lahll
09-14-2002, 05:34
somthing like 99.9% of the people playing the game are single player only, some do both..I myself do just multi.. The people who do just single need not load a new patch if they dont want to and can deleate it if they dont like it..the people at CA do a lot of work for the few fo us who do online only, I appreciate that...Ive not heard many complaints about the lack of comp games; anyone care?
MagyarKhans Cham
09-14-2002, 05:52
u sound a bit naieve youssof
if more and more people face supertweaked armies, and more and more leave the mp games, then ur stuck with some mizus, a lost khan, some sheeps and the supertweakers.
its too early for tweaking, keep your eyes open.
i myself noticed teh thin line between low koku (5k) and high koku (10k)
low means unit routs to darn fast, and en masse, u might just be lucky that they scatter so u can rally some.
high means that some units are realy beefed up. a bit too much.
seems the line is between 7k-8k, as in old mi.
a preliminairy solution could be raise morale a little, lower some unitbonusses when they are upvaloured.
Quote Originally posted by JRock:
... it'd be cool if, for example among the heavy cav, one Order of Knights (Hospitallier maybe) was slightly better at charging, while another Order of Knights (Santiago maybe) was slightly better at defense, etc etc.
Until even the 3-4 special Crusade orders of knights, (which are all available in Multiplayer Late period) which all happen to cost the same and have the same stats currently I think, could still be slightly different in stats while maintaining the same price, thus creating more variety in the units in the game.
[/QUOTE]
A very good point JRock, i too fail to see the reason behind the identical stats.
As for unit balancing, there are some units that are simply not worth the cost.
(The information is "FTA", but you're going to have to look for it.)
If there was a way to make EVERYONE aware of which units are a problem...,
but there's not.
If these are not fixed in the patch, then that information should be published.
Single game players want the patch for sure because many things are going to be changed in the strategic game. They can take or leave rebalanced units. If you like the old unit balance, then use the old crusaders_unit_prod11.txt file. I can't imagine a few tweaks to the battle stats even being noticable in single player.
youssof_Toda
09-14-2002, 14:59
Quote Originally posted by MagyarKhans Cham:
u sound a bit naieve youssof
if more and more people face supertweaked armies, and more and more leave the mp games, then ur stuck with some mizus, a lost khan, some sheeps and the supertweakers.
[/QUOTE]
I tend to only join a game when I think it's interesting, if those guys who I think are up for a fun battle leave cuz of some supertweakers then ur right. Can't give you any feedback about the missbalances cuz I don't even play every weekend but I trust you guys to figure out the most annoying things. If u want my personal oppinion I think weapon and armour upgrades have started troubles with MP ever since they were introduced in the total war series.
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