Romans vs. Makedonians

[deltafan]

Hey guys, I've got a tactical question to ask.

When playing as the Romans (Under the Camillan and Polybian eras), what is the best way to combat the Makedonian and Greek phalanxes? I've been thinking of Hastati holding the front while I use Triarii to flank around and hit their rear, would this work well? (I can't try it yet because I haven't invaded Greece yet, not do these units show up for the Romans in the custom battle creator screen). Also, how would the combat be different in the Marian and Augustan reform eras? Do they have spearmen or are they purely cohorts?

[Sakkura]

You can get all the units in custom battles, but you have to do some file-swapping. Check my signature for the details.

[Treverer]

...
I've been thinking of Hastati holding the front while I use Triarii to flank around and hit their rear, would this work well?
...
T'is been some time since I played with the Roman troops, but wouldn't it be better holding the line with triarii (= spearmen) and flanking with hastati/principes (= swordsmen) ??

Maybe I'm wrong, but that would be my tactics.

Yours, T.

[CirdanDharix]

Use the hastati from behind or the right flank, where there pila may actually do something. That's probably the best advice I can give you that doesn't involve actually exploiting the AI's stupidity. Use whatever will last the longest (i.e. most heavily armoured, best morale) to hold the front, you just won't wreak the phalnxes from the front whatever you do anyway, so you just have to occupy them for as long as possible. Also, if at all possible each individual battalin you should attack from at least three directions, to make it impossible for them to defend with their sarissae.

[Thrond]

Why waste good Roman blood?

Use some worthless Samnite mercernaries or spearmen to hold them from the front and allied infantry to flank and defeat the phalanx.

No point throwing away Roman lives when you can coerce your allies to do it for you.

[J.Alco]

Agreed, use Samnites. They're decently armoured and durable, would last a good amount of time against a phalanx (considering, of course, that they are don't charge but instead recieve the advancing phalanx) and they're totally expendable.

That's the beauty of allied units. The worthless scum die so that good honest Romans don't have to :knight:
That's why I always place them on the frontlines of my armies, and why they're the always the first ones through the breach during siege games.

Oh, and if you can get some good heavy cavalry (like Roman E or E Extraordinarii) to hit the phalanx on the rear while it's engaged on the front and on both flanks, that'll probably break the unit for ya, unless of course you're dealing with elites.

[konny]

When you are going for allies, I would prefer Hoplites (you should have Taras before you go to Greece). They do the job as well as Triarii or Samnite Milites, but for 1/2 the price.


You shouldn't be worried to much on phalanxis with the Romans. Hastati fight in a very open formation and, as long as you don't sent them against phalanxis outnumbered, they will be able to swarm around the flanks of the phalanx and cut it to pieces.

[matte89]

Use (whats thier names) the roman hoplite unit to hold the phalax spears while they just stay where they are in guard mode. Then engage from the flanks, i woud recommend you use all you cavalry (if you have any) and charge them from one flank and work your way through thier line. If u get halted just pull back, fill the gap whit the roman hoplites and charge again.

[Hellenic_Hoplite]

any sort of decent unit can defeat a phalanx just as long as you have a unit flanking it.

[deltafan]

I do have Taras, but hoplites aren't showing up. I set it up as a Stage I Italian government and only the first stage auxilary barracks, I assume I need to go higher with the aux barracks or are they not going to be available with the Stage I govt?

I have also always been very strict about having standardized legions, even pre-Marian/Augustan legions. From what you guys are telling me about Samnites and Hoplites, it sounds like I should be more flexible, depending on where I'm fighting? Or should I keep standardized legions, let them fight the large battles, but also send "auxilia" legions that fight the smaller battles and help fill in gaps in the standard legions as some of their men are depleted? My current strategy is to have auxilia legions support the main legions and defend the gaps and borders. But my standard legion tactic currently doesn't have Samnites, it has standard units.

Also, my other question that I don't think has been answered yet, when I get to Marian/Augustan legions, are those fairly standard, basically only cohort infantry with skirmishers and cavalry? Any spearmen?

[konny]

I do have Taras, but hoplites aren't showing up. I set it up as a Stage I Italian government and only the first stage auxilary barracks, I assume I need to go higher with the aux barracks or are they not going to be available with the Stage I govt?

Wrong government in Camillan times. You should have used the level II. Level I is right in Polybian times, but than you should have Messana, where you can raise the Hoplites?


Or should I keep standardized legions, let them fight the large battles, but also send "auxilia" legions that fight the smaller battles and help fill in gaps in the standard legions and some of their men are depleted?

Also, my other question that I don't think has been answered yet, when I get to Marian/Augustan legions, are those fairly standard, basically only cohort infantry with skirmishers and cavalry? Any spearmen?

Answer for both question: The Roman armies of any periode were not just made up of Legions, especially outside of Italy, but had a large numbers of local/allied/auxilia/mercenary units fighting with them. For armies that are fighting overseas you can consider a ratio of 1:1, or even 1:2, as still historical.

[beatoangelico]

greek classical hoplites need a lv 3 regional MIC so as said if you want them destroy the Type 1 gov and install somewhat else (personally I installed a type 4). This way in Taras you should get also greek medium cavalry that is better and less expensive then the crappy equites.

[deltafan]

OK, so my current Camillan/Polybian legion consists of 5 Hastati, 5 Principes, 5 Triarii, 2 Skirmishers, 2 Cavalry, 1 General.

Marian/Augustan I was planning on 15 Cohorts, 2 Cavalry, 2 Skirmisher, 1 General.

A more realistic one you say would be maybe 3 Hastati, 2 Principes, 2 Triarii, 2 Velites, 2 Cavalry, 1 General, 8 other units?


greek classical hoplites need a lv 3 regional MIC so as said if you want them destroy the Type 1 gov and install somewhat else (personally I installed a type 4). This way in Taras you should get also greek medium cavalry that is better and less expensive then the crappy equites.

Well, to keep a bit more authenticity, I would like to keep at least 1 Equites unit around, as the Romans did still field them, would 2 Greek cavalry to go with be reasonable?

[CirdanDharix]

OK, so my current Camillan/Polybian legion consists of 5 Hastati, 5 Principes, 5 Triarii, 2 Skirmishers, 2 Cavalry, 1 General.

Marian/Augustan I was planning on 15 Cohorts, 2 Cavalry, 2 Skirmisher, 1 General.

A more realistic one you say would be maybe 3 Hastati, 2 Principes, 2 Triarii, 2 Velites, 2 Cavalry, 1 General, 8 other units?



Well, to keep a bit more authenticity, I would like to keep at least 1 Equites unit around, as the Romans did still field them, would 2 Greek cavalry to go with be reasonable?

No, your legion is historical, the other units should be fielded in addition to the legion. So instead of an additional legion, you field an army of allied troops. Don't we all hate the stack size limits?

[Sakkura]

Put in some missile units too if you want.
Using foreign cavalry is perfectly reasonable, the Romans historically loved using other people's cavalry to augment or replace their own.

[Decimus Attius Arbiter]

You could use triarii in front. But, a good tactic I've tried is stopping close and swinging your wings including the cavalry around the sides. Nobody attacks yet. Whichever of my units, the enemy goes for, I attack with mine that are on the other side of it. It usually tries to face the flankers, so I move my center to pin, the enemy's. Then I finish by rotating any unengaged wingmen to the enemy rear. My cavalry is nicely aimed at the center of the phalanx and ready to kill all routers.

This usually causes the phalanx to fall apart without devolving into too much scattered one on one combat. Haven't tried it with even numbers but it works with a slight numerical advantage.

Oh, and samnite heavy infantry or peds extraordinarii are great for flanking with their ap swords. They've also saved my wings from stupid mistakes.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

Roman scum will never defeat the glorious Makedonian army. And wouldn't if the AI could ever use a phalanx correctly with flank-guards.:no:

[Watchman]

Then again, the historical Macedonians blew that often enough...

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

Problem with the Makedonians is / was that their army needs a competent commander. Which the Legions never needed, history is full of stories of Romans winning the battle despite of the abilities of their commander...

[Watchman]

Well, it's not like there's a particular shortage of instances of a blundering idiot managing to throw away perfectly fine legions either. Plus the part-timer nature of early Republic armies meant they tended to bleed kinda heavily at the start of every new war when the units and officers were still "learning the ropes" and getting used to each other, as it were.

The real strenght of the Roman system was that they were able to make good of the casualties and keep up the pressure until the other side cracked; no matter how many legions Hannibal out-generaled and demolished, the Romans were always able to call on fresh reserves and roll out a new army; no matter how often Spartacus gave them a whipping, the Roman potentates had deep enough purses and the city suburbs enough poor hopefuls that new legions could be sent against him.

[konny]

OK, so my current Camillan/Polybian legion consists of 5 Hastati, 5 Principes, 5 Triarii, 2 Skirmishers, 2 Cavalry, 1 General.

Marian/Augustan I was planning on 15 Cohorts, 2 Cavalry, 2 Skirmisher, 1 General.

To many Romans. I usually have 1/2 Romans + 1/2 allies. Since I raise Samnite units in Capua and Apri instead in Camillan times, I count them in for allies as long as I do not controll any non-Roman territories.

The "Roman" Legion is in my campaings:

2x Leves
2x Hastati
2x Principes
2x Triarii
1x Equites (or a Military Tribune)
1x General

The Samnite/Allied Legion

2x Accensi
2x Rorari
2x Hastati Samnitici
2x Samintici Milites
1x Campanian Cavalry
1x General

That is in both cases plus Auxilia, for example Hoplitai, Hippeis, Toxotai and Peltastai from the south, or anything you like from the Celts (for example Neitos) from the north.

For the Marian Legion I would not field more then 10 Cohortes.

[TWFanatic]

Your other option is too knock a hole in the enemy line by directing missile and artillery fire on a single point before charging it with an overpowering force. Then you can turn outwards and "roll up the enemy flanks." This tends to work best when the enemy has superior cavalry, thus preventing you from flanking. This tactic generally doesn't work when the enemy has reserves or a deep line of battle.

Also, if you're using the triplex acies, remember that whether your hastati are driven from the phalanx or drive the phalanx back, in either instance the phalanx will become disordered in their advance or retreat. This leaves them vulnerable to your reserves - the principes.

[russia almighty]

Have your men keep on moving once they hit the line . That helps alot cause it forces them to switch to there sword which has a lower lethality than the sarissa or long spear .