Holiday Inn in Dresden denies Neo-Nazi party leaders hotel room [Archive]

Ser Clegane

11-08-2007, 18:02

Just came across this one (of course I came across a German version, so I selected this particular link only to provide an English translation)
"Way to go, Holiday Inn" (http://ericthansen.blogspot.com/2007/10/way-to-go-holiday-inn.html)

The NPD is a far-right Neo-Nazi party that managed to get seats in the regional parliament of Saxony during the last elections.
These guys are despised by most people (of course they also have too many sympathizers - otherwise they would not have received the votes that they received), so the broader reactions here in Germany were quite positive when this became public - and I cannot deny that this case gave me quite a smile as well.

Nevertheless - what do people here think about the action taken by the hotel manager?
On one hand he denied elected representatives of a legal political party access to his hotel (and made this quite publicly), OTOH he argues that he is manager of an American hotel and has e.g., Jewish or Afro-American guests and does not think that accomodating Neo-Nazis would fit very well with this (apart from his personal view and that of his employees on the NPD).

Myrddraal

11-08-2007, 19:06

In the hope that you find lodging more suitable and that we are spared your visit, we remain,

sincerely yours,
:laugh4:

edyzmedieval

11-08-2007, 19:22

and were surprised that you should have chosen to stay in an American hotel enterprise with a foreign-sounding name.

:laugh4:

But this one beats everything....

In the case that this not be possible for contractual reasons, I would like to point out to you that all proceeds taken in by our house through your custom will be donated immediately to the Dresden synagogue. Please view this as a modest compensation for the damages that your fellow ideologists did to the synagogue and to its members years ago.

:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

Apart from that, way to go the Holiday Inn hotel. But on the other part, it will fuel more hate.

Fragony

11-08-2007, 20:16

His Hotel his rules, but what is it with Dresden and overkill?

CBR

11-08-2007, 20:23

His Hotel his rules, but what is it with Dresden and overkill?
Its a deep burning desire I guess...

CBR

atheotes

11-08-2007, 20:48

As you are not welcome in our house and because I cannot ask my employees to greet and serve you, we have asked www.hotel.de to cancel your reservation.

In the case that this not be possible for contractual reasons, I would like to point out to you that all proceeds taken in by our house through your custom will be donated immediately to the Dresden synagogue. Please view this as a modest compensation for the damages that your fellow ideologists did to the synagogue and to its members years ago.

Ouch....

Does he mean that "if we are not able to cancel your reservations we will donate that amount to the dresden synagogue" ?

Mikeus Caesar

11-08-2007, 20:57

It's his hotel, he doesn't have to serve them.

Way to go, i say.

Tribesman

11-08-2007, 21:16

On one hand he denied elected representatives of a legal political party access to his hotel (and made this quite publicly),
But he hasn't , he covered his ass very well with that letter , he asked he supplier to cancel its booking on the clients behalf , he didn't deny the nazis access . Saying they will not be welcome and saying they cannot come are two different things , the latter would be illegal discrimination .

Crazed Rabbit

11-08-2007, 21:18

He should be able to discriminate like this.

CR

Mikeus Caesar

11-08-2007, 21:22

But he hasn't , he covered his ass very well with that letter , he asked he supplier to cancel its booking on the clients behalf , he didn't deny the nazis access . Saying they will not be welcome and saying they cannot come are two different things , the latter would be illegal discrimination .

What, so it's all about how you phrase it?

I'm sorry, person of African descent, but you aren't welcome here. "Fair dues"

You can't come, person of African descent *LAW SUITS, JAIL TERM FOR DISCRIMINATION!*

Ser Clegane

11-08-2007, 21:26

Does he mean that "if we are not able to cancel your reservations we will donate that amount to the dresden synagogue" ?

Yes - that was his point, and IIRC he "threatened" to do this in a rather public manner during their arrival ~;)

he asked he supplier to cancel its booking on the clients behalf
No - he did not cancel on the clients behalf. In the German original of the letter (and in the English translation - at least that's how I read it) it is simply stated that he asked to cancel the reservation.
Of course you are right in a sense that he added

In the case that this not be possible for contractual reasons making clear that he intents to act within the limitations of the law.

My question for opinions actually was not targeting the legality but rather if people think that it is OK if a hotel rejects customers based on their (legal) plitical affiliation.

Don Corleone

11-08-2007, 21:32

Republicans get discriminated against because of their political views all the time. Why should Neo-Nazis get off any easier? :clown:

Seriously, sure I think it's okay to boot the Nazis out. 'Free' enterprise means an unfettered entrepreneur, and the innkeeper (or whoever actually owns the hotel) should be free to provide services for whomever he chooses (or doesnt'). The answer to discrimination isn't government mandates to serve a protected class. It's airing the dirty laundry. The media was much more a vehicle for change for Denny's then the local government ever was.

Fragony

11-08-2007, 21:47

My question for opinions actually was not targeting the legality but rather if people think that it is OK if a hotel rejects customers based on their (legal) plitical affiliation.

Hotel is no democracy I see nothing wrong with that, find another one. Besides, he has to think oft he other guests as well, doubt they are a nice crowd.

atheotes

11-08-2007, 22:34

[QUOTE=Ser Clegane]Yes - that was his point, and IIRC he "threatened" to do this in a rather public manner during their arrival ~;)

He surely cannot take their money AND refuse to serve them... unless my brain isnt functioning and i am reading this all wrong. Threatening to donate their money to the synagogue smacks of sensationalism and seeking publicity.

Ser Clegane

11-08-2007, 22:43

He surely cannot take their money AND refuse to serve them...

If the contract would not have allowed him to cancel and the "guests" would have insisted on fulfilling it, they would have gotten the rooms.
But the money for the room would than have been donated - this was a way to "scare" them away from insisting on taking the room (and if they had a valid contract the NPD would usually have used legal means to have it fulfilled).

Publicity was of course a major factor here (after all the letter was made public) - and the publicity certainly had several effects.

atheotes

11-08-2007, 23:19

My question for opinions actually was not targeting the legality but rather if people think that it is OK if a hotel rejects customers based on their (legal) plitical affiliation.

Thanks for your explanation Ser Clegane...:2thumbsup:

I am not totally comfortable with customers being deined service based on their political affiliation... it doesnt take too much stretching to do the same based on race/colour/whatever...:juggle2:

PanzerJaeger

11-08-2007, 23:23

Wow.. way to take a stand. How controversial. ~:rolleyes:

Husar

11-08-2007, 23:30

The only reason the party is legal is because they're hiding their real intentions behind a borderline legal policy. They balance at the edge of what is legal to not be disbanded. Now the manager does the same to keep them out of his Hotel, fair game I'd say. :2thumbsup:

And PJ, next you're telling me the NPD and their members aren't controversial. :laugh4:

Proletariat

11-08-2007, 23:50

I think anyone should be able to deny anyone anything. You always get these people talking about how it's their right to be in a store buying something. No it isn't, it's the store owner's right to tell you to go screw and the buyer's right to buy else where.

Edit: Just saw Don saying this better earlier on :P

Louis VI the Fat

11-09-2007, 00:06

Initially, I had a good laugh over it. Quite an inventive letter by the hotel. Why, of all places, should a Dresden hotel host neo-nazis? The city is a painful monument to what nazi madness leads too.

Then I got to think about it a bit more. What if a Dresden hotel doesn't want to host a rabid rightwing pro Israel group, on the grounds that they support terrorism? I can already imagine the headlines.

Even better, what if a German hotel uses it's right to decide who they alow in and simply ban Jews period? Put a sign up, 'Juden nicht gewunscht' ?

Husar

11-09-2007, 00:34

Even better, what if a German hotel uses it's right to decide who they alow in and simply ban Jews period? Put a sign up, 'Juden nicht gewunscht' ?
There's a big difference between being a jew and being a neo-nazi hatemongerer in my book. Nazi symbolism is banned here as well unless used to teach history, but noone is afraid that we will ban the peace sign next. :dizzy2:

Ronin

11-09-2007, 00:38

sure those guys are racist idiots...

but......you´re protesting against their discriminating racist policies by discriminating against their political ideas in your hotel?

:dizzy2:

sure these guys are douchebags...but why discriminate yourself?.. why not let them stay, take their money, and then offer it to the synagogue with a nice public statement?

Tribesman

11-09-2007, 01:14

I think anyone should be able to deny anyone anything.
No , racist scum have rights too , their rights are set out in law , especially concerning access and contracts of service .

why not let them stay, take their money, and then offer it to the synagogue with a nice public statement?
Ronin , that is what is being done in this case , they have the option of staying at the hotel because they booked and it was accepted . What they recieved was a rather polite invitation to take up the option of not demanding the fulfilment of the contract .

They did have another problem recently where they was denied a booking for a party conference , under the law as a legal party they can not be denied the use of a publicly owned building for party business , but it turned out the building wasn't publicly owned so they didn't have that right:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: the same as their protests in Bavaria about holding rallies at a village war memorial are being blocked ,the villagers own the memorial and the surrounding square so can block access to the political gathering .

Proletariat

11-09-2007, 01:25

No , racist scum have rights too , their rights are set out in law , especially concerning access and contracts of service .

What's a right of access? Contracts I won't dispute, but I don't think we even have something like a 'right of access' here. Are there laws where you are saying a proprietor has to provide service for everyone who comes along?

Tribesman

11-09-2007, 01:38

What's a right of access?
Its a privately owned building which is licenced to be open to the public isn't it , to bar members of the public from gaining that access you have to show legal grounds why they cannot enter , a lunatic political ideology is not a legal ground to deny access .
Thats why they cannot flat out refuse the booking , however once they are in the hotel it wouldn't take much to see to it that you can make some legal grounds to eject them .

Husar

11-09-2007, 01:44

LittleGrizzly

11-09-2007, 01:59

By the sounds of it they're a legitimate political party (however racist they are) so they shouldn't be refused services, the hotel owner played it brilliantly!

IrishArmenian

11-09-2007, 05:09

No , racist scum have rights too , their rights are set out in law , especially concerning access and contracts of service .
But businesses reserve the right to deny service to anyone, yes?
I am acting rather hypocritically here, congratulating a man for political discrimination, but I want to pat that man on the back and buy him a round. I love the synagogue remark!

Crazed Rabbit

11-09-2007, 05:56

No , racist scum have rights too , their rights are set out in law , especially concerning access and contracts of service .

No what, tribesy? Prole was talking about what should be, not the law as it stands. Strawman.

Or are your opinions of what is right dictated by what is written in law?

CR

Redleg

11-09-2007, 06:49

Its a privately owned building which is licenced to be open to the public isn't it , to bar members of the public from gaining that access you have to show legal grounds why they cannot enter , a lunatic political ideology is not a legal ground to deny access .

In the context that this sentence is written - I am not sure your correct, since privately owned business's in the United States have the ability to refuse service to anyone they wish. Now that business must be careful about refusing service, but according to the law here a private business can indeed refuse to serve an individual.

Thats why they cannot flat out refuse the booking , however once they are in the hotel it wouldn't take much to see to it that you can make some legal grounds to eject them .

Now this part I tend to agree with - easy for a hotel to evict a guest based upon some criteria.

HoreTore

11-09-2007, 08:20

Mouzafphaerre

11-09-2007, 08:46

.
Discrimination against Nazis is no different than against Jews, Negroes, or anybody else. So the manager gets a :rtwno: from me, not only for that but also because he helped the bastids buy more support.

That's on the level of principals. OTOH, I'd love if they suffered from that albeit marginally. :clown:
.

Fragony

11-09-2007, 12:17

Tribesman

11-09-2007, 14:04

That would depend on the country and legal system in question. I know that isn't the case here.

You mean that in Norway you can discriminate without having a legally valid reason and not face a law suit for discrimination ? Or is it that you can legally discriminate based on political ideology ?

In the context that this sentence is written - I am not sure your correct, since privately owned business's in the United States have the ability to refuse service to anyone they wish. Now that business must be careful about refusing service, but according to the law here a private business can indeed refuse to serve an individual.

Yep , as you note the business must be careful , it can indeed refuse service , but if it cannot show grounds why it refused service and why it was entitled to refuse it will open itself to a lawsuit .

There was one case two years ago in town , several hotels were involved , the first had taken a booking , it then tried to cancel the booking by falsely claiming it was double booked , they got sued and lost, the second hotel simply refused without giving a reason yet gave the same people a booking when they used different names , they got sued and lost , a third hotel refused on the grounds of threat to public safety and potential loss of business , they got sued and didn't lose .:yes:
A fourth hotel did take the booking and held the wedding , they did however insist on having an additonal 60,000 cash deposit lodged in advance to ensure good behaviour ...they got to keep that deposit surprisingly enough .
now each of those hotels could legally have discriminated , each could have made a legal case to support that discrimination , but two of them were not careful .
It works the same in town when certain funerals are on , pubs can refuse service if they have grounds to refuse service , but mainly they choose to close on those occasions instead of trying to keep within the law regarding discrimination .

KukriKhan

11-09-2007, 14:22

We have similar regulations here (in California) that apply to businesses that require additional licensing, such as pubs/bars. Bar owners can toss someone who has created a disturbance, but not someone who MIGHT, but has not yet, created one.

Service can/must be denied to 'obviously intoxicated' persons, but not to non-english-speaking patrons. Minors get the boot, but not old codgers with unpopular opinions.

The whole thing hinges on the gov't licensing protocols. No one denies that Mike G. (my local pub owner) could invite the entire bar to his nearby house to party, and deny entrance to anyone he chooses, on any whim that strikes him. But his licensed business, 2 blocks away, must serve everyone who walks into the place, unless he has a documentable, legal reason.

R'as al Ghul

11-09-2007, 14:35

As a shop or hotel owner in Germany and other European countries,
you don't have the right to refuse service as it is in the United States.

To refuse the service there needs to be a legal incident first after which
you can ban a certain person from your premises. Preemptive banning on the basis of colour, race, ideology etc is not allowed.
That's my understanding of our laws.
I've to admit though that there seems to be a legal grey zone if you look at clubs or discos. The bouncers are entitled to refuse you access. I guess that those are somehow not public but declared private, to be able to do that.

The letter is well written and humorous. Way to go.
On the other hand, if someone would pull this off on Jews, Africans etc it would be an absolute outrage.
Perhaps we could use some guerilla tactics. Invite an African Team or a Jewish delegation to the same floor and wait for the NPD guys to make defaming (illegal) racist remarks, record them, sue them, game over.

R'as

Tribesman

11-09-2007, 14:58

Perhaps we could use some guerilla tactics. Invite an African Team or a Jewish delegation to the same floor and wait for the NPD guys to make defaming (illegal) racist remarks, record them, sue them, game over.

Well that village with the dispute over the rallies at the war memorial lays on samba music and puts up projections of Nazi atrocities on the walls next to where the PND make their speeches .

R'as al Ghul

11-09-2007, 15:09

Well that village with the dispute over the rallies at the war memorial lays on samba music and puts up projections of Nazi atrocities on the walls next to where the PND make their speeches .

Looking at photos of concentration camp victims while listening to a sound mix of NPD propaganda speeches and samba? Sounds like a nightmare. :dizzy2:

Tribesman

11-09-2007, 15:20

Sounds like a nightmare.
They added new sounds to the nightmare , they invented a new traditional local bavarian festival to cioincide with the rallies , it is a festival of wood machinery and involves lots of loud powersaws .:laugh4:

Ser Clegane

11-09-2007, 17:59

They added new sounds to the nightmare , they invented a new traditional local bavarian festival to cioincide with the rallies , it is a festival of wood machinery and involves lots of loud powersaws .:laugh4:

That reminds me of...

Clerical boom drowns out German Nazis (http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/world/2006/1207/1165221551239.html)

BTW, the charges were dropped :beam:

Ronin

11-09-2007, 21:09

Looking at photos of concentration camp victims while listening to a sound mix of NPD propaganda speeches and samba? Sounds like a nightmare. :dizzy2:

yeah....Photos of concentration camps are some of the most horrific things I have ever seen..

but...

blasting Samba???:skull: .... that´s just mean!

Fragony

11-09-2007, 21:14

blasting Samba???:skull: .... that´s just mean!

Suits them just right imho

Tribesman

11-09-2007, 21:25

but...

blasting Samba??? .... that´s just mean!
why ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlLVOCstots:2thumbsup:

PanzerJaeger

11-09-2007, 21:53

Such bravery!

Tribesman

11-09-2007, 22:03

Such bravery!
Yes of course , not so brave as killing women and kids because of their religeon , but hey not everyone can rise up to Nazi standards:dizzy2:

Fragony

11-09-2007, 22:21

religeon

That is what you get when you mix priests and doves

Mouzafphaerre

11-10-2007, 05:26

I kinda see a difference, you don't have any control over being a jew or a negroe. He should be able to refuse whoever the hell he wants to refuse as long as it's not based on race and religion. Refusing to serve people because of their political beliefs, why not. I don't see any discrimination there.
.
All the same. Erase the words Negroes and Jews from sentence and put in Liberals and Social Democrats for instance. Discrimination is discrimination, on whatever basis. There is no guarantee for someone who denies service based on political stance to do it later on other criteria such as ethnicity, colour, nationality, religion, gender, whatever. As I said, I love what the guy did but I can't approve it.

The notion of public service is different than private property. One has every right to deny admittance to his property that's not meant to serve the public, on whatever criterion he likes or none at all. But once you begin allowing that in hotels, restaurants, civil service facilities, schools etc. it can't be stoppable.
.

hellenes

11-10-2007, 19:27

I believe that its right for the WWII winners to destroy their oponnents on ANY level so the same thing doesnt happen again...And we all know who were the real winners after WWII...

HoreTore

11-13-2007, 08:36

You mean that in Norway you can discriminate without having a legally valid reason and not face a law suit for discrimination ? Or is it that you can legally discriminate based on political ideology ?

He could easily say that having that guy in his hotel would discomfort his other guests, and thus making him lose money. Which would be more than enough reason to deny them.

Fragony

11-13-2007, 08:56

He could easily say that having that guy in his hotel would discomfort his other guests, and thus making him lose money. Which would be more than enough reason to deny them.

My thoughts exactly, a shame he had to make a statement. Personally I find it rediculous that someone can't 'discriminate' on politics in his own establishment, your privatly owned business is no common good.

HoreTore

11-13-2007, 09:02

My thoughts exactly, a shame he had to make a statement. Personally I find it rediculous that someone can't 'discriminate' on politics in his own establishment, your privatly owned business is no common good.

Push it too far though, and you'll hit the anti-discrimination laws and you'll be fined. However, this example would be perfectly legal, because the would-be guest is a well-known and highly controversial guy.

But denying service to some unknown black guy would hit the discrimination laws. If he was a black guy famous because he demanded the annihilation of white people however, then he could be denied too. Or a muslim mullah of some sort famous for terrorist links/hate propaganda.

Fragony

11-13-2007, 09:12

HoreTore

11-13-2007, 09:19

Said it before somewhere back, that wouldn't be acceptable because being black isn't a choice, politics is though, it's perfectly fine to disagree by denying service imho. Constitution is clear by the way, race religion sexual preference, nothing on politics.

Yup. Brings to mind an example of a well-known neo-nazi here, who wasn't even allowed to buy a house in this area. And that was by the state itself...