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Louis VI the Fat
11-09-2007, 01:01
Sarkozy did America yesterday. I was in doubt about whether to open a thread about it or not, but thought I might as well. The doubt stemming to a large extent to an uncertainty about what angle to give this thread. But the subject is too interesting to let it pass. So I'll just post two articles, and wait and see where it goes from here.


Speech by Mr. Nicolas Sarkozy, President of the French Republic before the Congress of the United States of America (http://www.ambafrance-us.org/news/statmnts/2007/sarkozy_washington_speech_congress110707.asp)
Madam Speaker,
Mr. President,
Ladies and Gentlemen of the United States Congress,
Ladies and Gentlemen,

I want to start by telling you something: For France, friendship first and foremost means being true to one’s friends, to one's values, to one's history. France is the friend of the United States of America. It's not just the President of France who is talking, I am only the mouthpiece of the people of France.

Since the United States first appeared on the world scene, our two peoples – the American people and the French people – have always been friends. The hardships our two countries have undergone have strengthened this friendship.

Friends may have differences; they may have disagreements; they may have disputes as families do.

But in times of difficulty, in times of hardship, friends stand together, side by side; they support each other and help one another.

In times of difficulty, in times of hardship, America and France have always stood side by side, supported one another, helped one another and fought for each other’s freedom.

The United States and France remain true to the memory of their common history. It is our duty to remain true to the blood spilled by their children in common battles on both sides of the Atlantic. But the United States and France are not merely two nations true to the memory of what they accomplished together in the past. The United States and France are two nations that remain true to the same ideal, that defend the same principles, that believe in the same values.

I am speaking in front of the portraits of Washington and Lafayette. Lafayette was the first foreign dignitary to address a joint session of Congress. What was it that brought these two men – so far apart in age and background –

Lafayette and Washington, together? It was their common values, the same love for freedom and justice. Upon first meeting Washington, Lafayette told him: “I have come here to this land of America to learn, not to teach.” He had come from the Old World to the New World and he said: "I have come to learn and not to teach." It was the new spirit and youth of the Old World seeking out the wisdom of the New World to open here, in America, a new era for all of humanity.

The American dream. From the very beginning, this American dream meant putting into practice what the Old World had merely dreamed of building.

The American dream. From the very beginning, from its origins, this American dream meant proving to all mankind that freedom, justice, human rights and democracy were no utopia but rather the most realistic policy there is and the most likely to improve the fate of each and every person.

America did not tell the millions of men and women who came from every country in the world and who – with their hands, their intelligence and their hearts – built the greatest nation in the world: “Come, and everything will be given to you.” She said: “Come, and the only limits to what you’ll be able to achieve will be your own courage and your own talent.” The America we love throughout the world is the country that has this extraordinary ability to grant each and every person a second chance, since in America, failure is never definitive.

Here, in your country, in this land, the humblest and most illustrious citizens alike know that nothing is owed to them and that everything has to be earned. This is what constitutes the moral value of America. America did not teach men the idea of freedom. America taught them how to practice it. And she fought for this freedom whenever she felt it threatened. It was by watching America grow that men and women understood that freedom was possible. And this is what gives you a special responsibility.

What made America great was her ability to transform her dream, the American dream, into hope for all mankind.

Ladies and gentlemen,

The men and women of my generation heard their grandparents talk about how, in 1917, America saved France at a time when my country had reached the final limits of its strength, at a time when France was exhausted in the most absurd and bloodiest of wars. France was able to count on the courage of the American soldiers. I have come to tell you, in the name of the French people, that we shall never forget this.

The men and women of my generation heard their parents talk about how, in 1944, America returned to free Europe for us from the horrifying tyranny that threatened to enslave us.

Fathers, in my country, took their sons to see the vast cemeteries where, under thousands of white crosses so far from home, lay thousands of young American soldiers who had fallen not to defend their own freedom but the freedom of all others, who died far from home, not to defend their own families, their own homeland, but to defend humanity as a whole.

That's why we love America.

Fathers took their sons to the beaches where the young men of America had so heroically landed. Fathers read their sons the admirable letters of farewell that those 20-year-old soldiers had written to their families before the battle to tell them: “We aren't heroes. We want this war to be over. But however much dread we may feel, you can count on us.” Before they landed, Eisenhower told them – and in Europe we haven’t forgotten: “The eyes of the world are upon you, young Americans. The hopes and prayers of liberty-loving people everywhere march with you.”

And as they listened to their fathers, watched movies, read history books and the letters of your soldiers who died on our beaches of Normandy and Provence, as they visited the cemeteries where the star-spangled banner flies, the children of my generation understood that these young Americans, 20 years old, were true heroes to whom we owed the fact that we were free people and not slaves. America liberated us. It's an eternal debt. And as President of the French Republic, it's my duty to tell the people of America, whom you represent in your diversity, that France will never forget the sacrifice of your children, and to tell the families of those who never returned, the children who mourned fathers they barely got a chance to know, that France's gratitude is permanent.

On behalf of my generation, which did not experience war, on behalf of our children who will always remember, to all the veterans here today and, notably the seven I had the honor to decorate yesterday evening, one of whom, Senator Inouye, belongs to your Congress, I want to express the French people's deep, sincere gratitude. I want to tell you something important: Whenever an American soldier falls somewhere in the world, I think of what the American army did for France. I think of them and I am sad, as one is sad to lose a member of one’s family.

That, ladies and gentlemen, is more important than all the disagreements we may have had and all the agreements we may have in the future. This is the bedrock of the relationship between France and the United States of America.

The men and women of my generation remember the Marshall Plan that allowed their fathers to rebuild a devastated Europe.

The men and women of my generation remember the Cold War, during which America again stood as the bulwark of the Free World against the threat of new tyranny.

I remember the Berlin crisis and President Kennedy who unhesitatingly risked engaging the United States in the most destructive of wars so that Europe could preserve the freedom for which the American people had already sacrificed so much. Forgetting this would, for a person of my generation, be tantamount to self-denial.

But my generation did not love America only because she had defended freedom. We also loved America because, for us, she embodied what was most audacious about the human adventure; for us, America embodied the spirit of conquest. We loved America because, for us, America was a new frontier that was continuously pushed back – a constantly renewed challenge to the inventiveness of the human spirit.

My generation, without coming to your land, shared all the American dreams. Our imaginations were fueled by the winning of the West and Hollywood. By Elvis Presley whom people are perhaps not used to mentioning within these walls, but for my generation he is universal. By Duke Ellington, Hemingway. By John Wayne, Charlton Heston, Marilyn Monroe, Rita Hayworth. And by Armstrong, Aldrin and Collins, fulfilling mankind’s oldest dream; the day the Americans walked on the moon America was universal and everyone wanted to be part of the adventure.

What was extraordinary, more extraordinary for us was that through your literature, your cinema and your music, America always seemed to us to emerge from adversity even greater and stronger; instead of causing America to doubt herself, such ordeals only seemed to strengthen your belief in your values.

What makes America strong is the strength of this ideal that is shared by all Americans and by all those who love her because they love freedom.

I say this before this Congress: America’s strength is not only a material strength, it is first and foremost a moral force, a spiritual strength. No one expressed this better than a black pastor who asked just one thing of America: that she be true to the ideal in whose name he – the grandson of a slave – felt so deeply American. His name was Martin Luther King. He made America a universal role model in the world.

And the world still remembers his words, which no young French citizen of my generation has forgotten. Martin Luther King's words – words of love, dignity and justice. America heard those words and America changed. And the men and women who had doubted America because they no longer recognized her began loving America again.

Fundamentally, what are those who love America asking of her, if not to remain forever true to her founding values? Ladies and gentlemen,

Today as in the past, as we stand at the beginning of the 21st- century, it is together that we must fight to defend and promote the values and ideals of freedom and democracy that men such as Washington and Lafayette invented together.

Together, united, we must fight against terrorism. On September 11, 2001, all of France –horrorstruck – rallied to the side of the American people. The front-page headline of one of our major dailies read: “We are all, on this September 11, 2001, Americans.” And on that day, when you were mourning for so many dead, never had America appeared to us so great, so dignified, so strong. The terrorists had thought they would weaken you and they made you greater. And the entire world felt admiration for the courage of the American people. That's the truth. And from day one, France decided to participate shoulder to shoulder with you in the war in Afghanistan. Let me tell you solemnly today: France will remain engaged in Afghanistan as long as it takes, because what’s at stake in that country is the future of our values and that of the Atlantic Alliance. Let me say solemnly before you today: Failure is not an option.

Terrorism will not win because democracies haven't the right to be weak, and because the free world is not afraid of this new barbarism. America can count on France in the fight against terrorism.

And it's together too that we must fight proliferation. Success in Libya and progress under way in North Korea shows that nuclear proliferation is not inevitable. Let me say it here before you: The prospect of an Iran armed with nuclear weapons is unacceptable for France. The Iranian people are a great people. The Iranian people, born of a great civilization, deserve better than the increased sanctions and growing isolation to which their leaders condemn them. We must convince Iran to choose cooperation, dialogue and openness. No one must doubt our determination. We will be firm and we will be able to have a dialogue because we will have found the way to be firm.

Together we must help the people of the Middle East find the path of peace and security. To the Israeli and Palestinian leaders I want to say this: Don’t hesitate! Take every risk in order to achieve peace! And do it now! Because the status quo masks even greater dangers: that of delivering Palestinian society as a whole to the extremists who, unacceptably, contest Israel’s existence; that of playing into the hands of radical regimes that are exploiting the deadlock in the conflict to destabilize the region; that of fueling the propaganda of terrorists who want to set Islam against the West. France will not compromise on Israel's security and France demands a State for the Palestinians. That is the only possible path to peace.

Together we must help the Lebanese people affirm their independence, their sovereignty, their freedom, their democracy. No one has the right to prevent Lebanon from living as a free country. What Lebanon needs today is a broad-based president elected by the Lebanese strictly in accordance with the Constitution. France will not accept attempts to subjugate the Lebanese people.

Ladies and gentlemen,

America feels she has a vocation to inspire the world. Because she is the most powerful country in the world. And because for more than two centuries America has striven to uphold the ideals of democracy and freedom, allow a friend of America to tell her that with this avowed responsibility comes duties for both America and France, one of the first of which is setting an example.

Those who love this nation, which, more than any other, has demonstrated the virtues of free enterprise, expect America to be the first to denounce the abuses and excesses of a financial capitalism that sets too great a store on speculation. They expect America to commit fully to the establishment of the necessary rules and safeguards. The America I love is the one that encourages entrepreneurs, not speculators.

Those who admire the nation that has built the world’s greatest economy and never ceased trying to persuade the world of the advantages of free trade expect her to be the first to promote fair exchange rates. The yuan is already everyone’s problem. The dollar cannot remain solely the problem of others. If we’re not careful, monetary disarray could morph into economic war, of which we would all be the victims.

Those who love the America of wide open spaces, national parks and nature reserves expect America to stand alongside Europe in leading the fight against global warming that threatens the destruction of our planet. I know that each day, in their cities and states, the American people are more aware of the stakes. I take the liberty of saying, with all the friendship I have for America, that this battle is essential for the future of humanity. We cannot obtain the results we must obtain unless America takes the lead in this battle for the preservation of our planet, of mankind and the human race. We need America to protect the environment of the planet.

Ladies and gentlemen,

Allow me to express one last conviction: Trust Europe.

Our world is unstable, it is a dangerous world. I say here, the United States of America needs a strong, determined Europe. With the simplified treaty, the European Union is about to emerge from 10 years of discussions on its institutions, and thus of paralysis. Europe will soon have a stable president and a more powerful High Representative for foreign and security policy. I want to tell you that Europe must now give new impetus to building up its military capabilities.

The ambition I am proposing to our partners is based on a simple observation: There are more crises than capabilities to face them. NATO cannot be everywhere. The EU must be able to act in the Balkans and the Congo, and tomorrow in Sudan and Chad. For this the Europeans must step up their efforts.

My approach – I ask you to believe me – is not ideological. My approach is purely pragmatic. Having learned from history, as I said at the beginning of my remarks, I want the Europeans, in the years to come, to have the means to shoulder a growing share of their defense. I want to say these two things from the bottom of my heart so that everyone understands them: Who could blame the United States for ensuring its own security? No one. Who could blame me for wanting Europe to ensure more of its own security? No one. It's in the strategic interest of all our allies, beginning with the United States, with whom we most often share the same interests and the same adversaries, for Europe to establish itself as a strong, credible security partner.

At the same time, and equally forcefully, since I'm well aware of my country's political history, I want to affirm my attachment to NATO. I say it here before this Congress: The more successful we are in the establishment of a European Defense, the more France will be resolved to resume its full role in NATO.

I would like France, a founding member of our Alliance and already one of its largest contributors, to assume its full role in the effort to renew NATO’s instruments and means of action and, in this context, to allow its relations with the Alliance to evolve concurrently with the development and strengthening of a European Defense.

This isn't the time for theological quarrels, we no longer have time for that! It's time for pragmatic responses to make our security tools more effective and more operational in the face of crises. The European Union and NATO must march hand in hand. It's our duty to protect our fellow citizens, we will protect them together. A credible and strong European defense within a revamped Alliance.


* * *
Ladies and gentlemen,

Finally, I want to be your friend, your ally and your partner. But I want to be a friend who stands on his own two feet, an independent ally, a free partner. Because these are the values we share together.

France must be stronger. I am determined to carry through all the reforms that my country has put off for too long. I will not backtrack, because France has backtracked for too long. France has enormous assets. I want to put France in a position, while respecting its unique identity, to win all the battles of globalization. I passionately love France. I am clear-sighted about the work that remains to be accomplished.

It is this ambitious, clear-sighted France I have come to present to you today. A France that comes out to meet America to renew the pact of friendship and the alliance that Washington and Lafayette sealed in Yorktown.

Together, ladies and gentlemen, let us be worthy of their example. Together, let us be equal to their ambition. Together, let us be true to their memories!

Yes, ladies and gentlemen, in the name of the French people, I say to you:

Long live the United States of America!

Long live France!

And long live the friendship between France and the United States of America!



France divided as Sarkozy woos US
(http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7085099.stm)
Supporters say Mr Sarkozy has won hearts and influence in the US
That Nicolas Sarkozy is France's most pro-American president in generations - in fact, come to think of it, ever - there is no reason to argue over.
It is the one point on which both he and his enemies would agree.

A man who declared his intention on going to Washington of "reconquering the heart of America" - and who in his speech to Congress cited Elvis Presley, Charlton Heston and Neil Armstrong as his heroes - is clearly not lukewarm about "les Etats-Unis".

The question is what it all signifies.

For supporters, Mr Sarkozy is quite properly correcting a historic imbalance in French-US relations - bringing to an end the knee-jerk hostility of his predecessors, both Gaullist and Socialist.

But for his critics, the president's admiration for America is a dangerous obsession.

They see France abandoning its duty to provide the world with an alternative conception of power, as their besotted leader realigns foreign policy behind the dreaded George W.

French reaction to Mr Sarkozy's Washington visit has reflected this basic difference of views.

American dream

For pro-government newspapers like Le Figaro, Mr Sarkozy's "Operation Seduction" was a success. Hearts were won in an America starved of praise.

"In a country which cannot get over being so ill-loved in the world, it was refreshing to hear a foreigner - one from the old continent - intone so sincere a hymn to the American dream, a dream so often denigrated but which appeared to acquire a new vigour coming from his lips," the newspaper's editorial enthused.

No French president who goes to America, even in the darkest days of their relationship, has ever failed to pay lip-service to certain accepted truths.


Critics say he is besotted with a country he does not understand
One of these is that France is America's oldest ally; another is that France will never forget the debt of blood paid by GIs in 1944; and the third is that even when the two countries disagree on everything from farm subsidies to the war on terrorism, they are still "friends".

Mr Sarkozy said all these things, but he went much further.

When - in the speech's most ringing phrase - he declared that "wherever an American soldier dies in the world, I think of what the American army did for France", it was a conscious effort to link the shared struggles of the past with those of today.

"America can count on France," he said, in words unthinkable from Jacques Chirac.

Friends say that this new alliance will give Mr Sarkozy influence over Washington in areas where the two countries still disagree, like the environment and what Mr Sarkozy calls "the excesses of financial capitalism".

But for his opponents, the president has, in the words of Liberation newspaper, "got lost in his American dream".

'Naive'

The left sees the president blundering naively into an America that he worships but does not understand. And it notes sardonically that Sarkozy's paeans of praise come just as the country itself succumbs to post-Iraq disillusionment about its place in the world.


One critic suggested he was seeking America's heart after losing his own
Significantly, Thursday's edition of Liberation was edited not by the regular staff of the newspaper but by a collective of "philosophes" - the invitation a gesture to show that philosophers remain relevant in modern society.

It need hardly be said that the philosophers are all utterly hostile to Sarkozy, but they do provide some food for thought about the well-spring of Sarkozy's Americanophilia.

Dominique Quessada, for example, said the president has "psychopathologically as well as politically" swallowed whole the myth of the lone American hero, in constant battle with society.

"His action is built round a giddying BruceWillisation: I arrive and I save the world," he wrote.

And in another flight of speculation, the philosopher and writer Michel Onfray saw significance in Sarkozy's use of the phrase "re-conquer the heart of America."

Because has the president not just lost his own heart, in the person of his beloved but now divorced wife Cecilia?

Ice
11-09-2007, 01:13
The men and women of my generation heard their grandparents talk about how, in 1917, America saved France at a time when my country had reached the final limits of its strength, at a time when France was exhausted in the most absurd and bloodiest of wars. France was able to count on the courage of the American soldiers. I have come to tell you, in the name of the French people, that we shall never forget this.

My great grandfather fought in the trenches in France. It's nice to hear him acknowledge this gratitude.

Good speech. I've been in favor of improved Franco American relations for a long time. France and America have a long history mutual friendship.

If it wasn't for the French, we would have never beaten the British.

If it wasn't for the Americans, France would not have been liberated, atleast for a while.

Fragony
11-09-2007, 01:14
About time a french president tries to end this absurd hostility, nothing but big ego's overestimating their importance. Best statemen of Europe, salute.

Proletariat
11-09-2007, 01:18
You said it, Frag.

Geoffrey S
11-09-2007, 01:24
A step forward. As long as it survives Sarkozy's volatile nature...

If it wasn't for the French, we would have never beaten the British.

If it wasn't for the Americans, France would not have been liberated, atleast for a while.
Interesting as such historical connections may be, I always fail to see what they mean beyond rhetoric for polticians' speeches. It's good to remember and acknowledge, but not so much to derive some modern day meaning from relations between countries in a past where both were significantly different from their modern selves. In this case, it's quite harmless, less so in other places in the world where nations/ethnic groups claim to have some justification for various nasty acts in the past, with the other side seemingly always able to come up with some earlier justification.

woad&fangs
11-09-2007, 01:34
I don't know what to say other than
:france: :france: :france: :france: :france: :france: :france: :france: :france: :france: :france: :france: :france: :france: :france: :france: :france: :france: :france: :france: :france: :france: :france: :france: :france: :france: :france: :france: :france: :france: :france: :france: :france: :france: :france:~:grouphug: ~:grouphug: ~:grouphug: ~:grouphug: ~:grouphug: ~:grouphug: ~:grouphug: ~:grouphug: ~:grouphug: ~:grouphug: ~:grouphug: ~:grouphug: ~:grouphug: ~:grouphug:

Fragony
11-09-2007, 01:37
A step forward. As long as it survives Sarkozy's volatile nature....

Haven't drowned yet? Bring an extra pair of socks tommorow:beam:

This case rhetoric means a lot, it's about a declaration of love comming from France. France has always feared a hyperstate and was an annoyance just for the sake of it.

Papewaio
11-09-2007, 02:52
America was in WWI? :holmes:

My god Watson its true. Maybe they were in WWII too. :study:

LittleGrizzly
11-09-2007, 03:10
I wouldn't say its too much of a shift, US and France were hardly enemies before this, I would say its a positive move as even though there are differences on policy the basics like democracy and capitalism remain the same.

These are the countrys that need to represent a United front in trouble spots around the world like Iran and Sudan.

Strike For The South
11-09-2007, 03:52
TO little to late

Papewaio
11-09-2007, 04:08
TO little to late

A bit harsh. The US did eventually enter into both WWI, WWII and did help Texas fight for independence. Should let bygones be bygones. :laugh4:

KukriKhan
11-09-2007, 04:40
Monsieur le président de la république made a fine speech, citing our mutual sacrifices on behalf of freedom, on the eve of the US's Veterans Day.

So when will the Legionnaires arrive in Baghdad?

Papewaio
11-09-2007, 05:04
That's the funny thing. The two World Wars was US helping France vs Germany.

Right now Germany and France are tight partners and the US is a jilted lover.

So it seems that until action happens this is merely window dressing.

IrishArmenian
11-09-2007, 05:16
What does "je't'aime" mean?
It's good to see the big guys play nice, maybe sooner or later they'll reach out to the little guys!
:embarassed:
Who am I kidding?

lars573
11-09-2007, 07:08
What does "je't'aime" mean?
I love you.

Tristuskhan
11-09-2007, 12:25
So when will the Legionnaires arrive in Baghdad?

When pigs fly... Sarko is too smart to send our troops to your illegal war.
Oh, well, I hope so....

Seriously: Sarko is still popular here in France, but the best way for him to get hated would be sending the french army in Irak. The man is a gambler. He gambles much in France those times, quite successfully for the moment BUT getting involved in your stupid war would be the last thing to do.
Let him suck GWB's **** as much as he wants, don't expect more since it would be Sarko's political suicide. I don't think he seeks death.

Don Corleone
11-09-2007, 12:38
Frag and Prole nailed it. Sarkozy is just acknowledging reality. I actually don't think he has any big love affair with the U.S. and I'm pretty sure he has no intentions of putting French troops in Iraq (not unless they're under a UN mandate, led by somebody who isn't American).

People who have supported France's position on our war in Iraq have said "this is what friends do, they disagree with each other". And that's true, friends do have disagreements when their values are in conflict, both at the personal level and at the national level. But in that disagreement, even if it doesn't get resolved, sooner or later, you move on. You don't end the friendship. And that moving on is what Sarkozy is trying to do, IMHO.

I think that in the coming year, if you don't see the Iraqi parliament make significant progress, you're going to start to see the U.S. taking troops out anyway. We cannot keep the status quo up indefinitely, and thus far, the Iraqis haven't shown that they want to find solutions and get all factions involved in a stable government. We can't make them want to do that. :shrug:

If I'm right, and I think I am, Sarkozy's timing is impeccable. Start the make-up just before the conflict is externally resolved anyway and look like the 'bigger person', with no real cost..... Mrs. Corleone does it to me all the time.

Seamus Fermanagh
11-09-2007, 14:09
When pigs fly... Sarko is too smart to send our troops to your illegal war.
Oh, well, I hope so....

I thought the original point of the Legion d' Etrangers was for them to draw those kinds of crap-details without risking any Frenchmen and while leaving the "official" French army a comfortable distance away....

Though you are probably correct that the political price for deploying French troops (of any stripe) to Iraq would be more of his political capital than M. S'y is willing to spend.

KukriKhan
11-09-2007, 14:30
^^What Seamus^^ wrote.

Plus, my question was not entirely sincere. I do not expect to see French troops in Fallujah tomorrow, of course. My point was: Your President spoke pretty words, that were appreciated by the US audience, but they remain just that: pretty words.

My actual question then, is: What will those words translate to, in terms of actions, if any?

Judging by Tristuskhan's response, I suspect the answer is: not much.

Husar
11-09-2007, 14:39
Just wait, in a few years Americans will love the French because of this speech, just like we love the US for JFK's "Ich bin ein Berliner". ~;)

I'm not going to guess what a french politician might have intended but it sounds like a step into the right direction.

Sooner or later the US will apply for EU membership anyway. :clown:

Fragony
11-09-2007, 14:45
Should have been in Frankfurt

KukriKhan
11-09-2007, 14:50
Sooner or later the US will apply for EU membership anyway.


Not as crazy an idea as one might think; if he thought he could get away with it, my governor (The Terminator) would, I think, jump at the chance to align California with the EU.

Tristuskhan
11-09-2007, 18:11
I thought the original point of the Legion d' Etrangers was for them to draw those kinds of crap-details without risking any Frenchmen and while leaving the "official" French army a comfortable distance away...

As far as I know the foreign legion is just plain part of the french army. French navy commandos also perform such "crap-details drawing" (mind: I just LOVE your words) very often. Both corps are currently playing football with the natives in the stinking streets of Kabul

@don corleone: "acknowledging reality"? What do you mean. Do you mean that countries that refused to follow the US in their bloody adventure should bend and apologise?

Besides that, your last statement is nice about Sarko... but "just before the conflict is externally resolved"? Really?

Geoffrey S
11-09-2007, 18:25
@don corleone: "acknowledging reality"? What do you mean. Do you mean that countries that refused to follow the US in their bloody adventure should bend and apologise?
I read that as acknowledging the reality that the US and France aren't enemies, that they share a whole lot of common interests, and that this whole hissy fit between the two nations over the last few years was clearly completely seperate from reality.

Don Corleone
11-09-2007, 18:53
@don corleone: "acknowledging reality"? What do you mean. Do you mean that countries that refused to follow the US in their bloody adventure should bend and apologise?


Calm down, I didn't mean (or imply) anything of the sort. :inquisitive:

The 'reality' that I meant I explained. That maybe France disagrees with America's Iraq policies. Certainly your right to do so. But at some point, you have to look past that and continue with the relationship.

If you're the type that ends friendships over anything your friends do that you disagree with, you must be a very lonely individual.

Louis VI the Fat
11-09-2007, 19:20
:france: :france: :france: ~:grouphug: I for one shall always respond to this with a firm vive les Etats-Unis d’Amérique! Et vive l’amitié entre la France et les Etats-Unis! :unitedstates: ~:grouphug:

Et vive le Texas! :us-texas: ~;)



Interesting as such historical connections may be, I always fail to see what they mean beyond rhetoric for polticians' speeches. It's good to remember and acknowledge, but not so much to derive some modern day meaning from relations between countries in a past where both were significantly different from their modern selves. In this case, it's quite harmless, less so in other places in the world where nations/ethnic groups claim to have some justification for various nasty acts in the past, with the other side seemingly always able to come up with some earlier justification.
Good points. The whole visit was heavy on symbolism. 250 years of Lafayette, Yorktown, World Wars, Normandy. I am always a bit wary of too much symbolism - more often than not it is invoked to mask lack of substance.

But states need symbols too. It gives a sense of direction, focus and unity. Even something as simple as a rowing team needs colours, cups, legends, clubsongs. These are unifying instruments. To help members get a sense of belonging.

I must say I personally am not indifferent to the specific symbolism of this trip. 'Normandie' does mean something to me. As does the story of Lafayette, who gave up comfortable position, fortune and title for America's call of, or: for, liberty. And an appeal to the shared values of the twin sister republics of the Enlightenment is always a rallying cry for me.
So to me, yes, there was something special about seeing Sarkozy give a speech of this nature under the portraits of Washington and Lafayette, portraits which to this day hang in the House of Representatives.

I wallowed in it, to be honest.



My point was: Your President spoke pretty words, that were appreciated by the US audience, but they remain just that: pretty words.
My actual question then, is: What will those words translate to, in terms of actions, if any?
The short answer: Sarkozy's pretty words are as good as America's pretty promise to stand up for democratic values anywhere. ~;)

There will always be an Abu Graibh, a september 11 - 1973 style, cynical lobby groups misdirecting America's foreign policy. Similarly, France will always be...France. Nations don't change much.
For people as well as nations goes that behaviour is a better predictor of behaviour than words.



Should have been in FrankfurtNo! In Vienna! "Ich bin ein Wiener..." ~:idea:

Followed by his travelling to the good old Austrian town of
https://img106.imageshack.us/img106/5031/200pxfucking2caustria2ctn9.jpg

'Today, in the world of freedom, the proudest boast is "Ich bin ******!!' Ich bin ein ****** Austrian!'


*runs before the wrath of the mods* :eeeek:

Fragony
11-09-2007, 19:23
"acknowledging reality"? What do you mean. Do you mean that countries that refused to follow the US in their bloody adventure should bend and apologise?

Apoligise to africa first for all the sick regimes France supported, that would be somewhat of a start. The invisible hand under the skirt smells just as fishy.

edit, that's a rather anglo-saxon sense of topography you have there Louis, Vienna?

Let's settle it at Hamburg, made mcDonalds great.

Tribesman
11-09-2007, 19:24
But at some point, you have to look past that and continue with the relationship.

But the relationship did continue anyway , in Afghanistan , Haiti , North Africa ,Djibouti ...... the "breakdown" in the relationship was just a little insignificant hissy fit that was amplified by some numbnuts politicians and the media .

Don Corleone
11-09-2007, 19:38
But the relationship did continue anyway , in Afghanistan , Haiti , North Africa ,Djibouti ...... the "breakdown" in the relationship was just a little insignificant hissy fit that was amplified by some numbnuts politicians and the media .

And Sarkozy is trying to put an end to the 'hissy' fit and moving on. Good for him.

Seamus Fermanagh
11-09-2007, 20:02
Not as crazy an idea as one might think; if he thought he could get away with it, my governor (The Terminator) would, I think, jump at the chance to align California with the EU.

"align" California with the EU??? Hell, he'd prefer to petition for membership.....

Geoffrey S
11-09-2007, 20:17
But states need symbols too. It gives a sense of direction, focus and unity. Even something as simple as a rowing team needs colours, cups, legends, clubsongs. These are unifying instruments. To help members get a sense of belonging.
That, I can wholeheartedly agree with. Although the present is not totally defined by the past it is always well worth remembering that everything has a history, that nothing should be taken for granted lest it be lost.

As an aside, and a minor rant, at times I find the willingness of modern European populations allow that which makes them unique to fade away far more worrying than the influence of immigrants on a nation's culture; that people see such a minority as a threat to what has developed over centuries illustrates all too clearly where the threat to national identities really lies.

Louis VI the Fat
11-09-2007, 20:51
When pigs fly... Sarko is too smart to send our troops to your illegal war.
Oh, well, I hope so....

Seriously: Sarko is still popular here in France, but the best way for him to get hated would be sending the french army in Irak. The man is a gambler. He gambles much in France those times, quite successfully for the moment BUT getting involved in your stupid war would be the last thing to do.
Let him suck GWB's **** as much as he wants, don't expect more since it would be Sarko's political suicide. I don't think he seeks death.Sarko carefully avoided Iraq, as did his hosts. Rightly so. There is a lot to be said about Iraq, France and America. Or not much at all.

My thoughts: Chirac was right, Bush was wrong. This is clear. The very clarity of that for me evaporates any frustration towards the Bush administration. What's left to be said about it?

More important is a public making up. The bigger wrong was to put Transatlantic ties at stake over a few acres of desert. Bush was wrong, and I won't forgive the deliberatly invoked francophobia of his administration. But it takes two to tango. Maybe France has an Americanophobic element too, no? A deep current, not coming to the fore as suddenly and sharply as the francophobia that raged (parts of) America, but very real. And not hidden from America.

'A disagreement between friends'. That was not the tone of French diplomacy in 2003. It is a good euphemism. Again, maybe Chirac, De Villepin, were right in itself in not supporting the invasion. But did they get their diplomacy right? Judging by the end result - an invasion anyway, a marginalised France, a low point in the relationship with a crucial partner - obviously not. Bush's fault? An unavoidable side-effect of standing up for reason against the madness of Bush? No, I don't think so. More the fault of Bush than of Chirac then? I don't care - I don't make the policy of Washington, I care for our part.

It also takes two to make up. America is often derided for having a short memory. I think it is a blessing. Long memories and nationalism, their combination, are a disaster, a European plague. Americans are quick to start afresh, as people and as a country. A blessing.


I do have my doubts about the timing of Sarko's visit. I said in an earlier thread that I would've prefered to wait for both Chirac and Bush to go before any high-profile restoration of ties. Firstly, I am not interested in restoring ties with Bush. Even so, I don't mind actually that Sarko did. Bush is still the president for a good year, and there are pressing matters in the world. We can't wait. And more importantly, Sarko made an outreach beyond current politics, above and beyond Bush, party politics, and temporary irritations. As such, any timing is good.

And secondly, for reasons of public relations the timing of the trip holds a risk. It is not an apology, it is not an offer of servitude - yet it carries the risk that it will be reduced by a large portion of public opinion of being just that. Alas.

PanzerJaeger
11-09-2007, 21:39
Does this mean we have to say good bye to the endless debates over the competency of the French military? ... or conversely, the endless affirmations of German superiority. :beam:

This seems pretty mundane. If it is advantageous to be friends, then its historical destiny... if not, they're just a bunch of surrender monkeys. Stalin quite admired Hitler for a time ya know..

Odin
11-09-2007, 22:03
This seems pretty mundane. If it is advantageous to be friends, then its historical destiny...

Advantageous? for Mr Bush its no loose, you see there is this little problem with Iran and he cant get his soul mate Putin to back him on sanctions. Enter Sarkozy, a seemingly willing member of the security council who for what ever reason wants to be closer to the crumbling hyperpower. :yes:

Hhhhmmmm yeah bubba's not to bright, but keep an eye open on EU sanctions on Iran outside of the UN.

Mr Bush I hand you a diplomatic victory, of course Bush wont go on and on about it, not only that but all our european friends will be able to hold thier heads high and slap themselves on the back and proclaim

"we really showed those americans how diplomacy works didnt we?"

Meantime Bush gets his sanctions, and you get european powers who support George Bush's mideast policies via direct sanctions on the iranian military. Of course my crystal ball is hazy, and ooppps I didnt mean to suggest Bush might actually be able to pull a fast one on our EU friends. :wiseguy:

But dont take my word for it, wait and watch and then come back to the euroroom and read what your EU comrades here have to say about thier governments support for the Bush admin.

Oh the hypocrisy, its rich...:rolleyes:

KukriKhan
11-10-2007, 04:54
The short answer: Sarkozy's pretty words are as good as America's pretty promise to stand up for democratic values anywhere.

There will always be an Abu Graibh, a september 11 - 1973 style, cynical lobby groups misdirecting America's foreign policy. Similarly, France will always be...France. Nations don't change much.
For people as well as nations goes that behaviour is a better predictor of behaviour than words.

Indeed. I guess you refer to:


Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, in order to assure the survival and the success of liberty.

This much we pledge - and more.

To those old allies whose cultural and spiritual origins we share, we pledge the loyalty of faithful friends. United, there is little we cannot do in a host of cooperative ventures. Divided, there is little we can do - for we dare not meet a powerful challenge at odds and split asunder

Since 1961, when I heard those words as a 10 year old, I took them seriously. I didn't, of course, fully comprehend their context - Berlin, Soviet Union, Cuba, post-colonialism, etc. - but the words rang true to me as a declaration of intent, and for me personally (and many of the people I knew) a declaration of duty assigned and acknowledged.

I guess in 2007, those words are looked on as dreadfully naive, even blusteringly arrogant. Afterall, who did America think it was, anyway? Did not the Viet Nam denouement (trying to fix a French post-colonial fumble) humble us, teach us a lesson in the use of military power?

Yes it did, say I. But not the lesson Europe thought it taught ("let the former colonies rise or fall on their own... we got ours. Besides, it's none of our business nowadays"); rather, it taught us "Don't jump into a fight unless you're willing to risk everything", and its corrollary, The Powell Doctrine (clearly-stated goals, overwhelming force, measureable exit strategy).

Iraq was a mistake in timing and execution. It (and Iran) needed attention, but not in 2003 in the middle of a war on terror, or more specifically a war on OBL and AQ. I admit that, unashamedly - if you look at my early 2003 posts here, you'll see that I thought the buildup was a 'bluff', designed to put more actual troops in the general ME area for easier deployment to Afghanistan, while threatening Syria, Iraq & Iran by the mere presence of so many us soldiers within a day's travel of their borders.

I digress.

All I'm saying is: "Walk the walk, as well as Talk the talk". If soldiers are out of the question for political reasons, how about construction engineers? Or irrigation specialists, or power-plant operators, or arborists, or urban planners, or trash collectors, or experts in banking, museums, archeology, anthropology; translators, interpretors, language-teachers.

"Boots on the ground" are not as required as "Feet on the ground". Helpful feet. Despite a poorly-executed intervention, the place could still use a hand up in some significant areas where France has expertise. C'mon in!

Or sit back and snipe at america's alleged hegemony, and sniff indifference at those silly arabs who can't seem to agree to anything civilized amognst themselves.

In which case, I suggest you sit down this very day, as a free citizen, and compose a letter to Mssr. Sarkozy and explain to him why his coziness with america is un-French, un-brotherly, and un-liberte'.

Because I think he has other plans.

Papewaio
11-10-2007, 06:57
The French could help with energy production. A couple of nuclear reactors in Iraq couldn't hurt now could it? :inquisitive:

JR-
11-10-2007, 17:24
So it seems that until action happens this is merely window dressing.
indeed, the presence of french fighting troops will determine whether a real yank/frank thaw occurs.

Papewaio
11-11-2007, 02:01
Actually far more seriously. It wont take fighting troops, it will take more trade, nice attitude and if feet are needed on the ground then I would suggest someone creates a plan to return infrastructure.

The time has certainly passed to think that the Iraqi people will spontaneously unite and reinvigorate Iraq into a vibrant Democratic state that functions.

spmetla
11-11-2007, 04:56
But the relationship did continue anyway , in Afghanistan , Haiti , North Africa ,Djibouti ...... the "breakdown" in the relationship was just a little insignificant hissy fit that was amplified by some numbnuts politicians and the media .

I have to explain this point to my friends all the time. They love to knock the French but fail to recognize that we left Lebanon and never came back, the French are still there and had their barracks blown up as well. Even while the French were embroiled in war in Indochina they sent troops to Korea and we offered them transport planes for many of their operations in Africa.

I hope that Sarkozy is able to mend some of our transatlantic idiocies, I like and respect the French and their government a lot. I hate the fact that 'we' resent their lack of support for the Iraq war. If the US is truly the 'leader' of the free world as we used to say then we should respect the freedom of our allies to disagree with us.

As for sending troops to Iraq, screw that, I'd rather the French sent more to Afghanistan. From what I've heard the French have been doing good work there, on the ground and in the air. The French HAVE troops in Afghanistan, they have fighters based in Khandahar provinding air support to the grunts on the ground as well as air support from their aircraft carrier when it's in the region.


~:grouphug: :france: :france: :france: :unitedstates: :unitedstates: :unitedstates: ~:grouphug:

Ice
11-11-2007, 09:07
I have to explain this point to my friends all the time. They love to knock the French but fail to recognize that we left Lebanon and never came back, the French are still there and had their barracks blown up as well. Even while the French were embroiled in war in Indochina they sent troops to Korea and we offered them transport planes for many of their operations in Africa.

I hope that Sarkozy is able to mend some of our transatlantic idiocies, I like and respect the French and their government a lot. I hate the fact that 'we' resent their lack of support for the Iraq war. If the US is truly the 'leader' of the free world as we used to say then we should respect the freedom of our allies to disagree with us.

As for sending troops to Iraq, screw that, I'd rather the French sent more to Afghanistan. From what I've heard the French have been doing good work there, on the ground and in the air. The French HAVE troops in Afghanistan, they have fighters based in Khandahar provinding air support to the grunts on the ground as well as air support from their aircraft carrier when it's in the region.


~:grouphug: :france: :france: :france: :unitedstates: :unitedstates: :unitedstates: ~:grouphug:

Indeed. I remember a while ago (I can't remember when/where) a bunch of Americans were in trouble in some country (again can't remember the name) in Africa. The French spent in their special forces to rescue and evacuate the Americans.

Brenus
11-11-2007, 09:54
“trying to fix a French post-colonial fumble”: The French post Colonial Fumble was fixed by the conference of Geneva, 21/07/1954. Why the US went there was not to fix something but part of Communism containment policy included in the Domino Theory. It was the Diem (supported by the US) who refused the free elections (contained in Geneva Agreement) and the referendum.:laugh4:
It was the unique occasion to see if a communist party could win an election and because Diem and the US feared it could, they decided to cancel it. That is what I call democracy….:inquisitive:

I hope France won’t send troops in Iraq. Not if all the political decisions will be decided in Washington. If war is the continuation of politic, I don’t see why my nephews should go there to pay the price for the US administration incompetence…:sweatdrop:

Some countries in EU choose to back-up this operation, by greed, wanting to be in a easy war to win, being in “the good papers” (from a French saying literally translated) of the USA and pure subordination, they got their rewards, so I suggest the US to ask them to sent new troops.
At least the UK is faithful in this disaster…

As French I paid the price for the courageous decision not to go in war in Iraq. I have good memory, and I remember all what was said, even in this site…:yes:

So sorry, we will keep our Legionnaires, soldats de Marine and others to free the French detain in Chad because they wanted to smuggle kids and were caught.:dizzy2:
And Sarkozy said he will go to bring them back, so…:beam:

AntiochusIII
11-12-2007, 00:11
Brenus: Aw, come on. Even I am pretty sure that Sarkozy is not so foolish as to send French troops in Iraq. There's no need for the hostile tone. For one, it's political suicide in France; for another, not all Americans will even appreciate that gesture. Should that somehow happens, the American Left will likely look on astounded and a few brave ones would speak out complaining that France had just become stupid.

Afghanistan, on the other hand, I think most Americans would love to see more French soldiers in -- apart from, of course, the ones already there. From what I hear every extra man there is needed.

Although I do admit I appreciate the irony of a Charles de Gaulle supporting American operations in Afghanistan ~:) The dear namesake of that carrier must be turning in his Gallic grave.

I always thought that this antagonism between Washington and Paris is a useless catfight anyway. French jokes are getting lamer day by day :/

"LOL surrender monkeys!1!"

"...err, yeah."

Don Corleone
11-12-2007, 00:25
With the current exchange rates, Mrs. Corleone and I and are considering a trip to France. Unfortunately, neither of us speak much more French than simple pleasantries. Any parts of France where people don't get so offended by our lack of ability to speak French? Perhaps we should stick in Maine? Bourdeaux?

Husar
11-12-2007, 00:35
With the current exchange rates, Mrs. Corleone and I and are considering a trip to France.
You say that as if it were an advantage for you... :sweatdrop:

Don Corleone
11-12-2007, 00:58
You say that as if it were an advantage for you... :sweatdrop:

Sorry, brain-malfunction. I should say we WERE considering a trip, until the dollar started going South. Nope, looks like the tiny little trickle of Americans visiting Europe will dry up even further. In looking at exchange rates that we are outperforming, to see where Mrs. Corleone, Jilly-bean and I can go, it would appear we're limited to Laos, Niger and Bolivia. Hmmm.... maybe it's time to go see the World's Largest Ball of Twine (http://www.roadsideamerica.com/attract/MNDARtwine.html), both of them, in Cawker City, Kansas and Darwin, Minnesota, and we'll decide for ourselves which is more noteworthy. :idea2:

KukriKhan
11-12-2007, 01:15
... In looking at exchange rates that we are outperforming, to see where Mrs. Corleone, Jilly-bean and I can go, it would appear we're limited to Laos, Niger and Bolivia...

Vientiane is nice this time of year, around 85F degrees and occasional rain - sorta like southern California. My neighbors are from there and could probably recommend an itinerary.

Wait. You weren't serious, were you? :laugh4:

Louis VI the Fat
11-12-2007, 01:39
Any parts of France where people don't get so offended by our lack of ability to speak French? Perhaps we should stick in Maine? Bourdeaux?:furious3: :furious3: Can't you people ever get it right!? It is Bordeaux not Bourdeaux!!1!1! Read the bloody labels on your wine bottles you ignora

Er...oops...I mean, don't be silly, Don. Nothing of the kind would ever happen. :sweatdrop:

A well-meant 'Bonjour!' [wait to be greeted back] followed by 'Parlez-vouz anglais?' should get you a civilised response. In English if you're lucky or else in French. If not, tell him where to stuff it in any language you please and go somewhere else.

Hey if it weren't for the Americans we'd have to tell you off in German. ~;)

Papewaio
11-12-2007, 01:46
What the Vichy were German speakers? :laugh4:

Fragony
11-12-2007, 06:41
With the current exchange rates, Mrs. Corleone and I and are considering a trip to France. Unfortunately, neither of us speak much more French than simple pleasantries. Any parts of France where people don't get so offended by our lack of ability to speak French? Perhaps we should stick in Maine? Bourdeaux?

Still Paris, just a few words of french will do, all will try to speak all the english they can, even got dutch back on some occasions(is it that obvious?). No idea why it has such a bad name, of course don't take the tourist tour just explore.

Ever told you guys I like Paris?

Brenus
11-12-2007, 23:28
“There's no need for the hostile tone” Was I? Sorry, not intended.

“Sarkozy is not so foolish” We speak of this guy who succeeded to put AT THE SAME TIME, students, railways, lawyers and EDF (energy) workers and Unions (for once united) in the streets. And they will be followed by all administrations and schools… This guy is ready for all…
I don’t know what is worst. A politician who doesn’t fulfil his promises or the one who do what he said he will do…:help:

Well, not I really care, I all ready live in UK. Nice country, a little bit wet, you know, the difference between winter and summer is in a nuance of dark grey or light grey, but nice. Bought a barbecue machine two years ago, can sell it as new, never used, same for the sun glasses. I would have just to clean the dust. Sun cream, as well, still intact. But nice country…:sweatdrop:

"Hey if it weren't for the Americans we'd have to tell you off in German": It would have been more impressive…:whip:

Louis VI the Fat
11-12-2007, 23:50
https://img105.imageshack.us/img105/622/sarkozyqy4.jpg





“Sarkozy is not so foolish” We speak of this guy who succeeded to put AT THE SAME TIME, students, railways, lawyers and EDF (energy) workers and Unions (for once united) in the streets. And they will be followed by all administrations and schools… This guy is ready for all… Even the Opéra is on strike:

("National Opéra of Paris - On strike")
https://img98.imageshack.us/img98/1328/operaix6.jpg



Don't you worry. Sarkozy has got it all worked out! Sarko FTW!! :knight:

https://img105.imageshack.us/img105/3378/sarko2hf0.jpg

Louis VI the Fat
11-13-2007, 00:47
Meanwhile, Bush and Merkel cozied up this weekend too.


German Chancellor Angela Merkel has wrapped up her talks with George W. Bush at the US president's ranch at Crawford Texas. In a joint news conference, both leaders pledged to continue to work towards a diplomatic resolution to the dispute with Iran over its nuclear programme. Merkel also said she would support a new round of sanctions against Iran if it continues to defy the international community's demands that it suspend its uranium enrichment activities. But the chancellor failed to convince the president of the need for binding limits on greenhouse gas emissions. Bush said while he was aware of the problem, combating climate change could not be allowed to have a negative impact on the economy. Merkel also failed to win Bush's support for Berlin's desire to be granted a permanent seat on the United Nations Security Council.

Naturally, Sarko and Merkel followed up their respective visits to the US with a brief French-German tête-à-tête (http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/11/12/europe/EU-GEN-Germany-France.php) today.


BERLIN: The German and French leaders called Monday for Russia and China to help increase pressure on Iran over its disputed nuclear program, and French President Nicolas Sarkozy said that Tehran must get "no nuclear weapon."

Sarkozy recently has led European calls for tougher sanctions against Iran over its defiance of U.N. Security Council demands to halt uranium enrichment, which could be used both to generate nuclear power and create the fissile core of warheads.

While France has suggested new European Union economic sanctions against Iran, Chancellor Angela Merkel has made clear that Germany wants to concentrate on negotiating sanctions at the U.N.
Ah, the blessings of a new generation of leaders and transatlanticism. :2thumbsup:

Justiciar
11-13-2007, 01:12
France and Germany, eh?

Foreign Ministers.. "Deutschland".. 'nuff said. :no:

I'm all for "integration" but let's at least see 'em doing something about it, instead of just singin' a wee song.

Vladimir
11-16-2007, 00:20
Meanwhile, Bush and Merkel cozied up this weekend too.



Naturally, Sarko and Merkel followed up their respective visits to the US with a brief French-German tête-à-tête (http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/11/12/europe/EU-GEN-Germany-France.php) today.


Ah, the blessings of a new generation of leaders and transatlanticism. :2thumbsup:

Maybe you guys could press them to mimic your energy policy. I don't mind a few more sunny days a year but I'm starting to get a whiff of sulfur from the West.

Rameusb5
11-16-2007, 19:52
I have always been put off by the anti-French sentiment in our country. I'm not exactly clear where it came from, but it was always here. The latest Iraq war simply escalated that feeling.

I myself love France. I've even considered (briefly) joining the Foreign Legion. Unfortunately, it was too risky (had to buy a ticket to France just to try out). I respect the French a lot for not jumping on board the "Let's do everything the Americans want" bandwagon that the world seems to love. Given our decisions post-World War II, I don't exactly blame them.

I am pretty much convinced that the current Iraqi conflict is more about opportunity than anything else. Did you know that 60 of the 85 Iraqi oilfields have been promised to American held oil companies? Why any other country would commit to fighting in Iraq when it is patently obvious that this is basically a gigantic corporate takover is beyond me. Fortunately, I think that the French people are smart enough not to allow themselves to become committed there.

I would really like to see Franco-American relations (Heh, that's a company in the US that makes Ravioli) improve. I'm ever so tired of the lame anti-french "Surrender" jokes and the rest of the stupid prejudices.

I don't know how I feel about France's new President. While I do like seeing an approachment, the current administration is a lame duck and it doesn't make a lot of sense to form a diplomatic friendship with the same administration that went out of it's way to blast France less than 4 years ago. I'm also hearing some strange things happening in France at the moment, and if he's the cause, this is not good for the French people as a whole.

Perhaps it has become France's job to be a reminder to the world that one superpower shouldn't be the ONLY alternative when it comes to international policy.

Odin
11-16-2007, 20:47
I have always been put off by the anti-French sentiment in our country. I'm not exactly clear where it came from, but it was always here. The latest Iraq war simply escalated that feeling.

There's a pretty rich history of it on both sides, seems to have peaked once we chose to intertwine militarily.


I am pretty much convinced that the current Iraqi conflict is more about opportunity than anything else. Did you know that 60 of the 85 Iraqi oilfields have been promised to American held oil companies? Why any other country would commit to fighting in Iraq when it is patently obvious that this is basically a gigantic corporate takover is beyond me. Fortunately, I think that the French people are smart enough not to allow themselves to become committed there.

While the subject of Iraq has been covered extensively on the boards, I think you would be hard pressed to find anyone who thought at the time, or thinks now that US and french soldiers would be shoulder to shoulder in Iraq.



I don't know how I feel about France's new President. While I do like seeing an approachment, the current administration is a lame duck and it doesn't make a lot of sense to form a diplomatic friendship with the same administration that went out of it's way to blast France less than 4 years ago. I'm also hearing some strange things happening in France at the moment, and if he's the cause, this is not good for the French people as a whole.

After thinking about this for a while I am thinking that France is feeling a touch isolated in the EU given thier lack of reforms in comparisson. Sarkozy seems to be willing to tackle some of the domestic issues within France and bring it more in line with EU standards of government. Thats a good thing, a strong EU and France makes for a stronger U.S.

His approachment now is simply by hapenstance of his election timing, I dont think it would have mattered who was in office, he was coming to america. France still has influence globally, and its not out of the realm to think they would like to bolster that influence.


Perhaps it has become France's job to be a reminder to the world that one superpower shouldn't be the ONLY alternative when it comes to international policy.

Given the 20 or % approval rating for Mr Bush globally I think the cats out of the bag, Mr Putin got the message too BTW. This is a no loose for France, and no loose for Mr Bush. It maybe unpopular in france, but they have big domestic fish to fry there and hurt american feelings hardly make it on the front burner.

That said the U.S. is still a hyper power (albeit crumbling by some standards. :rolleyes: ) France is a power and I would hazard a super power given its economic potential and military capabilities, not to mention nukes. I also think the europeans are nervous about Bush making a move in Iran, and I suspect the thinking is "lets play it out like North Korea" in a lot of EU capitals. Engaging Washington now, stroking the american ego is a small price for regaining influence in the decision making process.

the french understand the art of diplomacy well.

Meneldil
11-16-2007, 23:53
While I do like seeing an approachment, the current administration is a lame duck and it doesn't make a lot of sense to form a diplomatic friendship with the same administration that went out of it's way to blast France less than 4 years ago.


Couldn't have said it better.

Tristuskhan
11-17-2007, 04:04
While I do like seeing an approachment, the current administration is a lame duck and it doesn't make a lot of sense to form a diplomatic friendship with the same administration

And it would have made a whole lot of sense if he had waited for the next US administration to make the full-scale approachment. I have few nationnal pride, but this few feels a bit humiliated. "surrender" stuff, uh? Approachment towards the US could be good news, but towards BUSH! It has a bad taste of surrender:shame: .

Sometimes I feel like the "surrender monkey" has definitely been democratically elected here in France:inquisitive: .

Gah:skull: !

Proletariat
11-17-2007, 16:31
Where did Sarkozy say anything positive about the current US administration? You and a few others have bemoaned this behavior by Sarkozy few times now, and I still don't see it. What are you talking about?

Tristuskhan
11-17-2007, 19:06
Maybe we are talking about his neocon ideology? About the fact that in his speech the word "Iraq" was never pronounced (how can one talk about his strategic partnership with the US without speaking of Iraq?). He behived like a dull vassal. His speach was marvellous, it was like listening Tony Blair five years ago or the most brilliant poetic declarations of Berlusconi at his best.

Fragony
11-17-2007, 19:48
Neocon now, leftist politicians and their newspapers tried that one here as well, such a nice ring to it, why not just call his party a 'movement', that's the latest.

Really what the hell, his speech was apropiatily vague. He wants to improve relations, and, they could be better. Iraq, what a bout it? You have no role in it but want to be mentioned anyway? Toldyouso?

Husar
11-17-2007, 22:12
Any politician who can pack his usual hot air into such a nice speech deserves some applause. ~;)

Vladimir
11-18-2007, 04:07
Any politician who can pack his usual hot air into such a nice speech deserves some applause. ~;)

Well the French do like their pretty balloons. :balloon: :balloon2: :balloon3: (Sorry guys, no white balloon in less :surrender2: counts. It's joke!)

Brenus
11-18-2007, 10:29
“Maybe we are talking about his neocon ideology? About the fact that in his speech the word "Iraq" was never pronounced (how can one talk about his strategic partnership with the US without speaking of Iraq?). He behaved like a dull vassal. His speech was marvellous, it was like listening Tony Blair five years ago or the most brilliant poetic declarations of Berlusconi at his best.”

“Really what the hell, his speech was appropriately vague. He wants to improve relations, and, they could be better. Iraq, What about it? You have no role in it but want to be mentioned anyway? Toldyouso?”

Welcome in Sarkozy political action!!! He is good at that: speaking platitude and making them as if it is brand new ideas. He is always where cameras are, bigger the audience, better he is… He is good to make announcements by not so good in results…:clown:
Appropriation of others actions is part of his policy and with the help of media, he convinced population he did the job but total denial of involvement when things go wrong.:juggle2:
He is a master in politic…:oops:

I still don’t know (I understand why) he felt to go in the US and kind of apologised for the French decision not to go to war. Chirac was right, France was right for this instance… It should be up to the US present administration to apologise for all the insults and attempting blackmails…:beam:

Ice
11-19-2007, 09:12
I still don’t know (I understand why) he felt to go in the US and kind of apologised for the French decision not to go to war. Chirac was right, France was right for this instance… It should be up to the US present administration to apologise for all the insults and attempting blackmails…:beam:

I forsee that happening.... never.

Papewaio
11-20-2007, 02:19
why not just call his party a 'movement', that's the latest.


Having a movement is a nice way of saying taking a dump :toilet:... :laugh4:

Brenus
11-20-2007, 21:04
"I forsee that happening.... never." Well, I had the same feeling... Kind of premonition...:beam:

Don Corleone
11-21-2007, 04:03
So, let me get this straight. Brenus, Tristuskhan, you're angry that Sarkozy has made overtures towards the USA, and you think your government should be taking a more aggressive, confrontational position towards the United States? And what exactly is that supposed to accomplish?

I understand being sore over Iraq, but there's an expression in America, maybe it translates... it goes "cutting off your nose to spite your face".

Brenus
11-21-2007, 09:09
“You're angry that Sarkozy has made overtures towards the USA”: No, I am not. I am angry that he capitulated to US… No, not that, he went to subordinate France to THE US administration which was the centre, the origin of a smear campaign, of insults and lies because France dared to have objections to a military adventure launched on allegations what every body (even the US and UK Secret Services) knew were false…
I don’t mind to say I love US. I do like USA. When I went there I had good contacts, nice trip thanks…
However we speak politic here: Tell me what did the US administration do to improve the situation? Nothing.:no:

“You think your government should be taking a more aggressive, confrontational position towards the United States” No, I don’t support more confrontation. I just have let this present US administration died of natural causes, then we could have feint to ignore what was said on YOUR media.
No French media ever went as far than yours… And all is done like France was the problem…
What a h… Sarkozy had to say to Candy Rice who wanted to punish France? Encore, encore… More, more. He humiliated France, he went to Canossa…
And he did that on my name, on the name of France…:furious3:

Meneldil
11-21-2007, 11:42
So, let me get this straight. Brenus, Tristuskhan, you're angry that Sarkozy has made overtures towards the USA, and you think your government should be taking a more aggressive, confrontational position towards the United States? And what exactly is that supposed to accomplish?

I understand being sore over Iraq, but there's an expression in America, maybe it translates... it goes "cutting off your nose to spite your face".

I'm angry that Sarkozy made overtures towards Bush and his administration, and I think my governement should have ignored him until you elected a new - hopefully not brainless - president.

Waving and bowing at Bush in every possible occasion pretty much makes us "surrendering monkeys".

A trip to the US to improve relations between our 2 countries is a good thing. A trip to the US to replace Blair as Bush's favorite pupet isn't.

Tristuskhan
11-21-2007, 12:35
I understand being sore over Iraq, but there's an expression in America, maybe it translates... it goes "cutting off your nose to spite your face".
Here's a french expression that describes very well what we think Sarko did, it's "baisser son froc et se pencher en avant". Maybe it translates. Maybe.

Sarko's attitude is much for us what a... say Estonian president going to Moskow and apologising for his countrie's attitudes in 1989 would be for someone in Estonia. Soooorry we were sooooo wrong to be right and you were so right to lie, blackmail and decieve in order to fulfill your imperial desires. Can you just forgive us for having kept our independance of thoughts, please?

Don Corleone
11-21-2007, 14:17
Here's a french expression that describes very well what we think Sarko did, it's "baisser son froc et se pencher en avant". Maybe it translates. Maybe.

Sarko's attitude is much for us what a... say Estonian president going to Moskow and apologising for his countrie's attitudes in 1989 would be for someone in Estonia. Soooorry we were sooooo wrong to be right and you were so right to lie, blackmail and decieve in order to fulfill your imperial desires. Can you just forgive us for having kept our independance of thoughts, please?

But he didn't apologize. He didn't captiulate. He didn't say one word of reversing France's foreign policies toward Iraq. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: At a certain point in time, friends have to swallow the bile and just simply agree to disagree and move on. That is how I take Sarkozy's overtures. I don't think for one minute he's reversing your country's position, and I certainly don't take him for an apologist. Nor do I think are any other Americans that have a brain and actually watch the telecasts.

As to who should apologize to whom first, let me be the first. I am sorry that my country and my countrymen were so small-minded as we have been. I do not think you are 'surrender monkeys', nor do I think you were beholden to join us on a military campaign that NATO didn't authorize. I DO think your president could have voiced his opposition in more tactful ways, but I don't think it was anything out of bounds.

KukriKhan
11-21-2007, 15:03
I think the French should apologize for so rudely pointing out our Emperor's lack of clothing.
















To our French responders: Thanks. I see. Your approach is not unlike the US's view toward Cuba: "Just wait 'til "HE" is gone. Then we'll talk."

Fragony
11-21-2007, 15:37
I think the French should apologize for so rudely pointing out our Emperor's lack of clothing.

If you ask me they should apoligise for not doing it enough, but hey.

I am a bit surprised by the lingo here, 'capitulating'? 'surrender'? Waiting for 'treason' here. France finally sets her nose in the right direction after been rubbing up Russia forever, look at current russia. 'There should not be only one', well then stop trying to force it into isolation because that serves nobody good. This is bigger then your baguette Sarkozy understands that.

Odin
11-21-2007, 15:57
I'm angry that Sarkozy made overtures towards Bush and his administration, and I think my governement should have ignored him until you elected a new - hopefully not brainless - president.

Waving and bowing at Bush in every possible occasion pretty much makes us "surrendering monkeys".

A trip to the US to improve relations between our 2 countries is a good thing. A trip to the US to replace Blair as Bush's favorite pupet isn't.

Surrendering monkies and terms of that ilk in describing the french are thrown around far to easily. In the circle I run in, most are aware of the French's successful participation in our revolution. Had the French not defeated the english in chesapeake bay and blocked cornwallis the outcome might have been different.

The overall logistical hardship France posed to England with its participation on the States side cant be underestimated. Conversely, U.S. participation in the subsequent world wars is viewed largely as a remunneration event (perhaps not at the time of the occurance, but again in my current circle of Gen X'ers).

My preference would have been for him not to come at all and allow the status quo to remain. I still contend its a no loose for either side as the relationship wont change dramatically anyway. The only gamble is Sarkoszy domestic perception from citizens like yourself, which on the surface seems to be driven by dislike of Bush, not the U.S.

Look closely at the visit and what was said and or committed, he extended a hand to the U.S. as a nation, understanding full well Bush is a lame duck and a moderate government is forthcoming. Its savvy on his part, assuming he wants in on future U.S. foriegn policy.

Does that make him the latest lap dog? Maybe, but i suspect the move was to reestablish a willingness by France to be less antagonistic publically, to a perceived moderating US political landscape. Mr Bush had nothing to gain by it, it just strikes me as a minimal investment for a potential future dividend.

Vladimir
11-21-2007, 17:18
Surrendering monkies and terms of that ilk in describing the french are thrown around far to easily. In the circle I run in, most are aware of the French's successful participation in our revolution. Had the French not defeated the english in chesapeake bay and blocked cornwallis the outcome might have been different....

You forgot the “cheese eating” part. When I think of this phrase I consider it in an historical context much like you; however our conclusions are different. I see a “France” (as a whole mind you, not its people) which is a brie consuming capitulating primate version of its former self.

Beginning with its final defeat at the hands of the British and relative impotence when compared to us colonials, their leadership has acted like a petulant child, actively seeking to counter Anglo-American influence. Are they fighting *for* France or against us? It doesn’t help that I perceive their involvement in the EU as another attempt to be the regional hegemon. Instead of seeking to lead Europe they want to dominate it.

France and other socialistic countries in Europe are set to wither away and can’t even replace their native populations. It really burns me that there is so much potential and history there which isn’t being used to build a future. Keep in mind that while many use that phrase to refer to the post WW II era, some of us look farther back than that.

Odin
11-21-2007, 17:38
You forgot the “cheese eating” part. When I think of this phrase I consider it in an historical context much like you; however our conclusions are different. I see a “France” (as a whole mind you, not its people) which is a brie consuming capitulating primate version of its former self.

In the context of its historical empire perhaps your right, I wont dispute it on that basis but in the modern context of world power and influence which seems to be tied into economic prowess, military clout, and influence in international issues, france is hardly a limping vagabond.


Beginning with its final defeat at the hands of the British and relative impotence when compared to us colonials, their leadership has acted like a petulant child, actively seeking to counter Anglo-American influence.

Ah, but there in lies the lack of generosity in your observation, they were the front for two modern world wars, yet somehow have managed to maintain the indentity as "french" I admire thier fortitude. Thier leadership, prior to mr sarkozy had all been reared in a diplomatic era that had circumsized thier prior empire and contributions to the world order.

Sarkozy seems to be a forward thinker at first blush, Chirac had his go at the transit unions as well and it didnt fly so he retired into the old role of being the counter weight to US/UK military influence. I hardly found it threatening, none the less beating a dead horse does seem to support your "petulant child" comment.


Are they fighting *for* France or against us? It doesn’t help that I perceive their involvement in the EU as another attempt to be the regional hegemon. Instead of seeking to lead Europe they want to dominate it.

France dosent have the economic clout to dominate/lead the EU, it needs partners. Now maybe thats what Mr Sarkozy is attempting? bolster his own position with a friendly U.S. ? Would it make his task easier if he didnt have a vocal critic in washington? I dont know, I suspect the EU you see today is the same one you will see 20 years from now, very little will change.


France and other socialistic countries in Europe are set to wither away and can’t even replace their native populations. It really burns me that there is so much potential and history there which isn’t being used to build a future. Keep in mind that while many use that phrase to refer to the post WW II era, some of us look farther back than that.

Well isnt that what Sarkozy is attempting to prevent? By adjusting social spending programs on pensions he is effectively attempting to stave off the withering, now if they can just assimilate all thier prior colonial holdings, and allow them to be "french" the tax base should thrive.

Fragony
11-21-2007, 17:40
France and other socialistic countries in Europe are set to wither away and can’t even replace their native populations. It really burns me that there is so much potential and history there which isn’t being used to build a future. Keep in mind that while many use that phrase to refer to the post WW II era, some of us look farther back than that.

A certain type of lawyer found a profession and the USA isn't exactly clean of those. Some benefit from a failing system because it's failure is profitable if it keeps going down. France and many other european countries sre no socialistic nations it are failed ideas, still highly succesfull when working around it though and only then.

Husar
11-21-2007, 19:12
Could this be somehow tied to Angela Markel and her attempts to improve US-German relations?
Maybe Sarkozy doesn't want France to fall behind in that regard, if better relations mean more business, trade etc.

For exmple there is a rivalry between the german and the french division of Airbus, now if either of them could conince the US to make some technology exchange or whatever, that would certainly strengthen their position which may result in more workplaces, etc.

Vladimir
11-21-2007, 19:42
Could this be somehow tied to Angela Markel and her attempts to improve US-German relations?
Maybe Sarkozy doesn't want France to fall behind in that regard, if better relations mean more business, trade etc.

For exmple there is a rivalry between the german and the french division of Airbus, now if either of them could conince the US to make some technology exchange or whatever, that would certainly strengthen their position which may result in more workplaces, etc.

Maybe also because the UK is drifting toward the continent creating a bit of a vacuum.

If the French wanted to catch up on technology they would most likely increase their industrial espionage.

Kommodus
11-21-2007, 20:04
Interesting and telling that Mr. Sarkozy's mission here was called Operation Seduction...

I my view, the French president didn't come here to surrender, but to conquer. He knows we Americans have never been able to resist romantic men from the City of Love. Honestly, even I melted just reading that speech! Ah, Sarkozy... :sweetheart:

I find it highly unlikely he actually wants to embroil France in the US's misadventures overseas. That would be why he didn't mention Iraq - he knows full well it was a mistake, and that the French people know it was a mistake, and that most Americans know it too. He threw in a bit about support for our goals with regards to Iran, because that doesn't really cost him anything. He can agree to our goals without actually supporting our methods.

His real objective was probably to generate warm feelings towards France in the American people (not necessarily the leadership) so that we would support French positions on other global issues - most notably climate change and energy. America, you have always been great at meeting enormous challenges, Sarkozy says. Why not stand as the world leader in meeting these challenges as well? How can we resist such overtures?

So I actually support what he's doing, because frankly, I want my country supporting Europe and the rest of the world in efforts to halt global warming and develop renewable energy sources. We've wasted enough time with a costly war on terror that doesn't address the root causes of modern conflicts. I also don't think it's wise to wait until Mr. Bush is out of office - let's do what we can now, and once he's gone we can do even more.

There's another saying we have here in the States: You catch more bees with honey than you do with a shotgun.

I'm cheering for Mr. Sarkozy and Operation Seduction to succeed. :2thumbsup:

Vladimir
11-21-2007, 20:23
So I actually support what he's doing, because frankly, I want my country supporting Europe and the rest of the world in efforts to halt global warming and develop renewable energy sources. We've wasted enough time with a costly war on terror that doesn't address the root causes of modern conflicts. I also don't think it's wise to wait until Mr. Bush is out of office - let's do what we can now, and once he's gone we can do even more.

There's another saying we have here in the States: You catch more bees with honey than you do with a shotgun.

I'm cheering for Mr. Sarkozy and Operation Seduction to succeed. :2thumbsup:

1. China

2. Incendiary white phosporous aimed at a bee hive at point blank range.

I like the operation seduction angle though. :2thumbsup:

Pannonian
11-21-2007, 20:24
His real objective was probably to generate warm feelings towards France in the American people (not necessarily the leadership) so that we would support French positions on other global issues - most notably climate change and energy. America, you have always been great at meeting enormous challenges, Sarkozy says. Why not stand as the world leader in meeting these challenges as well? How can we resist such overtures?

Trust the French to flatter the yanks about the size of their challenges. Remember, it's not the size of the challenge one has that matters, but how one copes with it.

Vladimir
11-21-2007, 20:49
Trust the French to flatter the yanks about the size of their challenges. Remember, it's not the size of the challenge one has that matters, but how one copes with it.

"Copes with it" implies that a problem exists. That wasn't Freudian was it? :drummer:

Louis VI the Fat
11-27-2007, 01:36
Sarkozy: China, je t'aime


Sarkozy visit marks new phase in relations
By Liu Jiansheng (China Daily)
Updated: 2007-11-26 07:08


French President Nicolas Sarkozy arrived in China yesterday, starting his three-day visit to the country. This is an extremely important part of a series of major diplomatic moves the new French head of state plans to take. Sarkozy's China trip will mark the beginning of a new phase in the development of the all-round strategic partnership between China and France.

Since Sarkozy took office, his foreign policy adjustments have shown the characteristic of succession mixed with innovation. The country's independent and self-determined foreign policy is made to protect France's national interests. The country's foreign policy, based on a multi-polar world view and ethnic diversity, has not changed.

The long-term strategic goal of Sarkozy's new foreign policy is to elevate the country's economic and trade interests so as to make the country stronger amid globalization. Needless to say, France will continue to carry out its foreign policy with the European Union as its strategic prop, lock on to the direction of advancing European integration, push forward the multi-polarization of the world, attach importance to mutual respect and dialogue between different civilizations and play a proactive and unique role in maintaining world peace.

The China-France partnership is based on expansive political consensus, common economic interests, culture of mutual understanding and growing mutual confidence.

The two countries maintain identical or similar standings on a range of critical international issues. In May 1997, China and France signed a "comprehensive partnership" document. In 2004, the two nations signed another document sealing a "comprehensive strategic partnership" between them during President Hu Jintao's visit to France, elevating bilateral relations to a new high.
Full story (http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/opinion/2007-11/26/content_6278349.htm)




Sarkozy wins China 20bn euro deal

French industrialists visiting China with President Nicolas Sarkozy say they have finalised trade deals worth almost 20bn euros ($30bn; £14.5bn).
These include a delivery of 160 Airbus passenger planes to the value of about 10bn euros.

And state-owned French energy firm Areva said it had signed a contract to build two nuclear reactors in China.

The announcements came as Mr Sarkozy held a second meeting with his Chinese counterpart Hu Jintao.

"The total amount of these contracts has never been matched before," he told the Chinese president as they met in Beijing's Great Hall of the People.
Aaahh...that's my boy. 20bn euros. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7112500.stm) :2thumbsup:

Papewaio
11-27-2007, 02:00
So how much $ did US get in trade deals?

Vladimir
11-27-2007, 18:56
Despite the poor grammar I assume there's a point there. Could you elaborate? What's more important is the percentage of French GNP that this deal accounted for. Anyone know?