I Was Saved Last Night, So Why Do I Feel All Icky... [Archive]

PanzerJaeger

11-10-2007, 00:47

Long post.. read at your own risk(of boredom).

Last night, I visited a long time family friend that has been rather estranged for a few years. There was no falling out, simply lost touch as they say.

Well, during this time, she obviously found Jesus – and in a big way. So, over drinks we discussed all the usual things old friends (its more of a matronly relationship that friendship) talk about when catching up. Then, a somewhat peculiar thing occurred. She asked me if I died this second and was at the gates of heaven, what would I say. Jumping on my speechless reaction, she then proceeded to tell me that good people don’t go to heaven. Apparently, only those who accept JC as their personal savior get in.

So I was destined for hell. Thankfully, she asked me if I would pray with her and ask JC to come into my heart. Due to the enormous respect and admiration I have for this woman (she is almost like a second mother) I acquiesced. However, during the whole miserable process, I felt as though I was betraying myself.. my principles. (yes, I have principles)

I have always considered myself “politically Christian”, if you will. I’m not religious but I don’t consider myself atheist either. In fact, I really haven 't bothered with trying to nail down my beliefs and label them. However, I have always supported Christians and Christianity because I believe the morality and message JC taught is a good model for people and society. (If doing the right thing doesn’t come naturally to you, do it because you don’t want to go to hell.)

But this was a different kind of Christianity than I have been accustomed to. These weren’t the Catholics I’ve grown up with who went to church on Sundays because that’s what their parents did, measured their beliefs with common sense, and completely ignored some of the more radical teachings of the church (birth control). This otherwise intelligent woman seemed to have been completely brainwashed. It was all there, the blank stare, the testimonial I’ve heard a hundred times flipping past the religion channel, and the pressure to get me into the fold. Replace JC with Billy Idol and it would have made no difference.

I’ve tried to be religious, but I just can’t seem to convince myself. There are too many long lived dead religions and too much hypocrisy in the message and the delivery for me to truly feel passionate or even believe… And worst of all, there seems to be a complete absence of personal contemplation… just give it all to God.

And I think that’s what it all boils down to. Life is horribly miserable a lot of the time, whether you’re an African refugee or Britney Spears. We’re all plagued with disappointment and heartbreak and for some people it just gets to be too much to comprehend. Couple that with the uncertainty we all feel about what lies next after death and for a lot of people I think its just easier to let go…… of reality?

Ice

11-10-2007, 01:16

Couple that with the uncertainty we all feel about what lies next after death and for a lot of people I think its just easier to let go…… of reality?

:yes:

Marshal Murat

11-10-2007, 01:18

I can relate (sorta).

I don't have a problem with Christianity, and I generally support it. I consider myself agnostic, but I stick up for my less-radical Christian bros.
I think it's just that some people realize in their lives a conversion. My dad says it'll hit me around 25 or 30. I start going to church and believing in the word of God. Maybe she had a religious experience, and wishes to express it. You know, spread the good word about JC.

It's part of growing up and not something someone can force on you.

[end rant]

Boyar Son

11-10-2007, 01:20

Yes...mm hm, i see...

I do understand what you are trying to say:laugh4:

"And I think that’s what it all boils down to. Life is horribly miserable a lot of the time, whether you’re an African refugee or Britney Spears. We’re all plagued with disappointment and heartbreak and for some people it just gets to be too much to comprehend."

as for that, yeah life can suck. What with AIDS ruining one of the best aspect of life, death of a family member, you know the deal.

But your friend becoming religious makes you question life and its horridness? disparate dont you think? why do you have this connection?:
(becoming religious makes you question life and its horridness)

woad&fangs

11-10-2007, 01:20

In my case I believe because I fear nothingness. The thought that there is nothing after death is the thing that I am the most afraid of. If I think about it for more than a few seconds I feel sick inside.

I also accept that if the Christian version of heaven and hell is in fact reality that I am going to hell. Not probably going to hell, I am going to hell. Even more odd is that I would prefer hell to heaven. In part of Luke it describes how people in heaven can see people in hell and people in hell can see people in heaven. One of my friends is bi and she is not a christian therefore she is going to hell. She is also one of greatest people anyone could ever hope to know. If I was in heaven and I could see her suffering and know that I am fine and that if I could trade places then I would but I can't than I would hate myself for the duration of eternity. Another One of my friends(think of a cross between Boyar Son and Navaros) has said that his church teaches that it is impossible to be sad in heaven. The thought that I could see my bi friend(I am going to call her Carla from now on but that is not her real name) suffering and I wouldn't be sad absolutely disgusts me. So in short, I would rather suffer in hell than be happy in heaven and know that my friends were suffering.

I hope that what I said made sense.

seireikhaan

11-10-2007, 01:35

Well, personally, I wouldn't consider myself really religious. Technically, I'm catholic. Was born one, raised one, and currently go to a Catholic High School. Growing up, I went to mass everyday, was an altar boy, sang along with the church music, went to religious education Wednesday's night, etc... But never did I ever feel like I was in the presence of anything more than a bunch of people my dad knew and an old priest who was a rather nice, but boring guy. It was nice and all, but it wasn't ever any kind of religious revelation. Since my days at my high school began(I attended public school previously), my faith, ironically, has declined. Being in an atmosphere of near utter homegony, of frantic pro-lifers, holy roller religion teachers, pompous a-hole football players(the main reason I quit the team), and a general atmosphere of utter hypocrisy(our school has possibly the worst drug/alcohol problem in the county), I began seeing religion in a rather different light. Now, its not that my school is all bad. It is highly regarded by colleges, has high academic standing, and, in comparison to other private schools, is relatively cheap. But ultimately, it sickens me. We have no diversity. We have absolutely no range of allowable groups. We absolutely will not allow groups which present a non-conformity to the Dean's political views. Speaking of whom, the Dean is an ardent republican, of course. We do not have an anti-war group. We have a pro-life group, but the Dean will not allow an anti-war group. Go figure. And of course, the church does nothing about such hypocrisy. Add in the fact that one of the Iowan diocese recently filed for bankruptcy because its losing too many court cases where a priest has been sued for pedophilia, and lets just say I'm questioning exactly how "god" can be guiding this institution.

Ok, sorry for hijacking the thread there a bit. Just felt like releasing a bit of tension. Anyways, I know your old friends with this person, but personally, I would cut off this relationship. If this person has changed so much since you last met her, is she really the same person? Additionally, it seems like you've done pretty well in the time you haven't seen her, so I think you'll be fine. As for letting go of reality, I'm not quite sure what to say there. Lots of people throughout the ages have searched for the answer to what 'reality' ultimately is. Nobody's ever really disproved most religious theories, on account of them being, well, religious. Based on faith, basically. Science can ultimately tell us only so much. And so a gap exists where we can try to discern what we really are, what drives the fabric of our souls, the foundation of the human spirit.

Byzantine Mercenary

11-10-2007, 01:48

Ronin

11-10-2007, 02:00

Well...I´m an atheist but I don´t have a problem with religious people.....not the regular ones...that go to church(or synagogue or mosque or whatever), and use that experience to help them get through life....there´s nothing wrong with that...me personally I´m convinced that when I die it´s lights out and I´m fine with that idea..

what really gets to me is the activist kind that tries to push their ways down everybody else's throats...

but I never meet anyone that fit into the "brainwashed" category.....born again christians aren´t a big thing here in Portugal....so I haven´t met any of the religious brain dead.

Husar

11-10-2007, 02:05

I don't know anymore. :shrug:

I prefer not to think about it for too long as I know I won't and can't arrive at a conclusion that needs no belief.

AntiochusIII

11-10-2007, 03:24

Ouch, Panzer. Being trapped between a deep personal respect for the person and a clear disdain for said person's viewpoint is a terribly awkward place to be in.

Depends on how much you can reconcile your outwardly spoken words and your inner thoughts, it might not bother you at all to lie and pretend to truly be "saved" in front of your close family friend for her sake, or it might leave you hanging with guilt of the "hypocrisy" of your actions. If it were me, I'd probably be honest, since I sadly enough value my principles above relationships, at least for now.

Your religious views are your own, of course, but personally I view such an absolute faith as a dangerous, negative influence in one's outlook. It makes a person self-righteous, confident of his or her correctness to the point of blindness.

I also tend to think that those who become "Born Again" as such usually faced a crisis of faith in their pasts and turned to absolute confidence in faith for solace. That thought usually allow me to forgive them for their "absurdities."

Csargo

11-10-2007, 05:23

I think there are many people who feel exactly like you do Panzer.

KukriKhan

11-10-2007, 05:39

Awkward, indeed, your experience, PJ.

Having been there a few times myself (I could tell you stories that would curl your teeth) I can faithfully report a similar "icky" feeling. Having been on the receiving end of a few born-again experiences, I've come to describe them as 'faith rape'.

If rape = an unsolicited intrusion, persued by an unwelcomed aggressor, with intent of his/her own, not one's own...

Then it is rape. And the way 'out' (or through) is to tell what happened, as you've done.

Sorry, man. Welcome to America.

Evil_Maniac From Mars

11-10-2007, 05:57

Divinus Arma

11-10-2007, 07:01

I guess I can jump in on this one and take a few moments out of my schedule to be embroiled in controversy.

I think that you are on the right path, so far as "surrending to God". Without God, existence itself is utterly devoid of purpose. Which means all action is free of consequence, be that physical or spiritual. You would mean nothing.

I can't stand MOST Christianity. I don't buy miracles or fate. It would mean we have no free will. Which again would mean we have no purpose. We would just be robots with the illusion of free will. Furthmore, the arrogance and intolerance of MOST Christians (edit: and MOST other existential perspectives to include darwinists and atheists) makes me sick.

But I do support christianity, like you, for the ethics it promotes, and more importantly, for the link it provides to God. If people need a middle man to get to God, that is just fine with me.

But the motivation behind it should be to serve the one and only God. To be His hands in your life and do His will. Nobody should be motivated by reward of heaven or fear of damnation. Positive and negative reinforcement works great for training dogs too.

The bottom line is that allowing God to be your commander means you are well led in this life. It does not mean giving in to boredom, but simply maximizing your potential as his servant.

My life took a 180 when I came to this conclusion, and my constant struggle to serve God better is an effort that rewards me consistently and continually.

(EDIT: Oh, and I "found Jesus" myself and did the whole thing. I consider my current perspective to be an evolution from that. I actually broke down in tears over the billions who were going to go to hell because they couldn't believe. It does indeed feel icky.

The whole concept is now absurd to me. If you believe that a man is God, then you get to go to heaven and avoid hell. Early Germanic leaders would claim descendance from their Gods as well, most frequently Thor or Odin. How interesting that Rome's greatest threats/allies/immigrants would be presented with the option of worshiping or angering the Roman Christian Jesus who descended from a single all-powerful super God! Icky? You bet.

And which Christianity is right? Modern day protestant Christianity is a modification of Catholicism and both claim to be God's will. Maybe another offshoot will spring up and claim to be right. Icky.)

Whacker

11-10-2007, 07:55

Meh, I can respect other's faiths... But respectfully, I don't need any 'god' to validate my existence, or to define a purpose for me. I have my wife, parents, sister, future children and grandchildren, friends, dogs, work, hobbies, etc etc etc that all make my life worth living and provide me with a sense of belonging and purpose. I am afraid to die, but it's just something that we all must accept when the time comes. As much as I honestly want nothing more than there to be some form of afterlife where I spend eternity with my loved ones, I've never seen, heard, read, or experienced anything that remotely leads me to believe it exists. I was raised christian and 'lost' my faith about 16 or so. It bothered me for awhile and I have periodically revisited the issue personally and privately, but it doesn't at all anymore, I am simply the type of person that does not work at all on 'blind faith'. I can live a good and meaningful life without worrying about any of that nonsense.

PJ, I haven't been in your type of situation, but I fear for a possible similar one in the future that sounds almost identical. We have a good family friend from my mom's youth that apparently has turned into the hardcore evangelical type, and she's been estranged for many years now. Last I heard about her at all she had sent my wife and I a wedding present. It'd be nice to see her again, but part of me fears that the person I knew is long gone, and I may very well end up losing respect for her in her current state (as I understand it to be) if we were to sit down and talk and she'd try to "convert me".

JR-

11-10-2007, 17:32

haha, i was baptised catholic to keep one set of grand parents happy

have always preferred Anglicanism, because it's english and it ain't papist

never denied the possibility of a higher being, but never given a damn either

never had a problem with people of faith, even if i could never muster any for myself

but i have no time for psychologically inadequate people who need extreme religion to prop up the fragile walls of their limited world vision, outside of which lies uncertainly, chaos and fear that threatens their very sanity.
sadly, that inadequacy frequently demands reenforcement in the form of shared group belief, which annoyingly involves preaching to others.

Fisherking

11-10-2007, 18:12

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

11-10-2007, 21:53

I don’t know how to put this…well…

God doesn’t have a religion. Religion is something put together by people. God is more of a Universal Force…So, yes god is love and its antecedent is fear.

Some how the force tries to give us what we think of most…and lots of us think of what we don’t want to happen…got a grasp of how life is so full of crap now…

All I can tell you is to think happy good thoughts for you and others and it all gets better….LOL

That's just an opinion, please don't present it as anything other than that. You're actualy doing the same thing to us that Jager had done to him.

So I was destined for hell. Thankfully, she asked me if I would pray with her and ask JC to come into my heart. Due to the enormous respect and admiration I have for this woman (she is almost like a second mother) I acquiesced. However, during the whole miserable process, I felt as though I was betraying myself.. my principles. (yes, I have principles)

But this was a different kind of Christianity than I have been accustomed to. These weren’t the Catholics I’ve grown up with who went to church on Sundays because that’s what their parents did, measured their beliefs with common sense, and completely ignored some of the more radical teachings of the church (birth control). This otherwise intelligent woman seemed to have been completely brainwashed. It was all there, the blank stare, the testimonial I’ve heard a hundred times flipping past the religion channel, and the pressure to get me into the fold. Replace JC with Billy Idol and it would have made no difference.

I’ve tried to be religious, but I just can’t seem to convince myself. There are too many long lived dead religions and too much hypocrisy in the message and the delivery for me to truly feel passionate or even believe… And worst of all, there seems to be a complete absence of personal contemplation… just give it all to God.

And I think that’s what it all boils down to. Life is horribly miserable a lot of the time, whether you’re an African refugee or Britney Spears. We’re all plagued with disappointment and heartbreak and for some people it just gets to be too much to comprehend. Couple that with the uncertainty we all feel about what lies next after death and for a lot of people I think its just easier to let go…… of reality?

Welcome to the thing Christians don't like to discuss, salvation comes only through Jesus, it's in the Bible and it's part of the teachings of every mainstream Church from Catholicism onwards. Think about it for a moment though, if you don't need to believe in God to go to heaven then you might as well not, what would be the point and why should you tell anyone else.

sic

You don't believe in hell?

Meh, I can respect other's faiths... But respectfully, I don't need any 'god' to validate my existence, or to define a purpose for me. I have my wife, parents, sister, future children and grandchildren, friends, dogs, work, hobbies, etc etc etc that all make my life worth living and provide me with a sense of belonging and purpose. I am afraid to die, but it's just something that we all must accept when the time comes. As much as I honestly want nothing more than there to be some form of afterlife where I spend eternity with my loved ones, I've never seen, heard, read, or experienced anything that remotely leads me to believe it exists. I was raised christian and 'lost' my faith about 16 or so. It bothered me for awhile and I have periodically revisited the issue personally and privately, but it doesn't at all anymore, I am simply the type of person that does not work at all on 'blind faith'. I can live a good and meaningful life without worrying about any of that nonsense.

PJ, I haven't been in your type of situation, but I fear for a possible similar one in the future that sounds almost identical. We have a good family friend from my mom's youth that apparently has turned into the hardcore evangelical type, and she's been estranged for many years now. Last I heard about her at all she had sent my wife and I a wedding present. It'd be nice to see her again, but part of me fears that the person I knew is long gone, and I may very well end up losing respect for her in her current state (as I understand it to be) if we were to sit down and talk and she'd try to "convert me".

Two things: Firstly, finding religion doesn't make you stupid, nor is it a crutch. It does jack all for me, for starters. Secondly, you might think about why people want to convert you, i.e. their motivation.

IrishArmenian

11-10-2007, 22:33

As a Christian, I feel that your friend means well.
Call me a spineless syncretist but I believe that sooner or later, everyone gets into heaven. *Waits for crazies to call him Godless*
Different paths are easier and others are more difficult.
I believe Jesus Christ to be the Messiah, but does that mean I also believe Ghandi is in hell? Allow me to pun: hell no!
People like Mahatma Ghandi lived with morals and values similar to Christ's.
I'm also dissapointed by her focus on heaven and hell. That is merely a reward, and even then a good Christian is to try to do good for the sake of making life easier for others.

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

11-10-2007, 22:37

PanzerJaeger

11-10-2007, 23:27

Thanks for the responses. :bow:

Its like I've lost a friend. Sure she's still alive, but her mind doesn't seem to be. I used to be able to go to her for advice even when I couldn't talk to my own parents, but now her only answer is to pray.

That night I tried to talk to her about an issue I'm having thats causing me some trouble and all she could tell me was to give my pain to god. Now I don't expect someone else to solve my own problems, but the total mental disengagement really bothered me. I could have told her I ran someone over and the answer would have been the same.

What is really scary is that this woman is not some "psychologically inadequate person who needs extreme religion to prop up the fragile walls of their limited world vision". She's college educated and has traveled the world. I don't know what happened..

woad&fangs

11-10-2007, 23:50

My advice is this,

The next time you want advice on something then go to her again. If she tells you to pray about it or to trust god then you should tell her the truth.

"I don't want to hear about that kind of stuff, you used to be a person who gave great advice and who I trusted more than my own parents and I would appreciate it if you remembered that part of yourself and helped me out now."

Or something to that affect.

It sounds like you are going to lose her as a friend anyways so there is no harm in trying to salvage your friendship. I don't know, that is what I would do but not everyone appreciates blunt honesty as much as I do. You are in a rather lousy position right now but I hope that it turns okay with you. People change and not always for the better. You can't save them all.

I wish you the best of luck.

Rhyfelwyr

11-10-2007, 23:50

I'm not sure, but I remember once hearing that in the bible hell is described more as the world we live in just now rather than the torture chamber as portayed by later artists.

I myself am a milder protestant (Presbyterian). I don't like the hierarchical structure of the Catholic Church and the protection it gives to priests as mentioned by kamikhaan (although don't take this as an attack on the Catholic people, I have always believed they will make it to heaven as well), but in particular I just cannot understand where the Christian reasoning is behind these evangelic groups in the USA who preach hate against Muslims, they use the term like its a bad word. Indeed, they allow that hate to influence their politics and as a result back Mr. Bush and his wars in Iraq. I remember a mother and her obviously brainwashed children argiung how they would never live in a society alongside non-Christians (in particular their type of Christians) and would never help non-Christians. It goes against just about every value the bible teaches, but hey. I think many of these evangelicals just want to block out the world and live in their own protected society, they've no desire to actually understand and practise the true biblical values. Of course there are many well-meaning evangelical Christians who do follow the bible, so don't think of my post as an all-out attack.

@PJ - I think your friend is well-meaning, maybe she'll come out of her bubble when she's ready.

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

11-11-2007, 00:07

Thanks for the responses. :bow:

Its like I've lost a friend. Sure she's still alive, but her mind doesn't seem to be. I used to be able to go to her for advice even when I couldn't talk to my own parents, but now her only answer is to pray.

That night I tried to talk to her about an issue I'm having thats causing me some trouble and all she could tell me was to give my pain to god. Now I don't expect someone else to solve my own problems, but the total mental disengagement really bothered me. I could have told her I ran someone over and the answer would have been the same.

What is really scary is that this woman is not some "psychologically inadequate person who needs extreme religion to prop up the fragile walls of their limited world vision". She's college educated and has traveled the world. I don't know what happened..

That's really sad.~:( Dumping everything on God isn't what it is about at all. I honestly don't know what to suggest. If she's a Christian then God shouldn't be a huge part of her life but He shouldn't be her only answer to every problem. Prayer can be a great comfort for some people but I don't believe it ever solves the problem on it's own.

nokhor

11-11-2007, 00:09

Without God, existence itself is utterly devoid of purpose. Which means all action is free of consequence, be that physical or spiritual. You would mean nothing.

my personal belief is the opposite of DA's in regard to the absence of God. if there is no God and all action is free of consequence then everything is very important. i do not believe morality is dependent upon God. good is good because it is good. i don't believe that good is good because God says it is good. morailty is independent of religion. if it is wrong to torture a child, then it is wrong to torture a child irrespective of whether that is because God says so, or if God even exists. if this existence is all there is and there is nothing in the hereafter, all the more reason to treat others with respect and benevolence because this is the only shot we've got to do so.

Ronin

11-11-2007, 00:21

my personal belief is the opposite of DA's in regard to the absence of God. if there is no God and all action is free of consequence then everything is very important. i do not believe morality is dependent upon God. good is good because it is good. i don't believe that good is good because God says it is good. morailty is independent of religion. if it is wrong to torture a child, then it is wrong to torture a child irrespective of whether that is because God says so, or if God even exists. if this existence is all there is and there is nothing in the hereafter, all the more reason to treat others with respect and benevolence because this is the only shot we've got to do so.

agreed 100%.

also the normal "well if there is no afterlife then this life is worthless".

quite the contrary...this life is much more important if it is the only one you will get.

Whacker

11-11-2007, 01:01

Very well said nokhor and Ronin, that is also my take. This life is all you have, so live it well. Kukri's sig is something to truly live your life by.

CountArach

11-11-2007, 03:34

nokhor and Ronin pretty much summed up my views onlife. I have been an Atheist for about 6 months now, but I have enjoyed those 6 months more than any others in my life.

AntiochusIII

11-11-2007, 04:01

Its like I've lost a friend. Sure she's still alive, but her mind doesn't seem to be. I used to be able to go to her for advice even when I couldn't talk to my own parents, but now her only answer is to pray.

That night I tried to talk to her about an issue I'm having thats causing me some trouble and all she could tell me was to give my pain to god. Now I don't expect someone else to solve my own problems, but the total mental disengagement really bothered me. I could have told her I ran someone over and the answer would have been the same.I suppose Waldinger's proposition might be the thing that needs to be done. Sometimes it's better to get a heart-to-heart talk to clear things up, especially if you trust the person deeply enough. Although I fear her answer might continue to be the same frustrating, blind answer she gave you that no rebuttals can undo...

What is really scary is that this woman is not some "psychologically inadequate person who needs extreme religion to prop up the fragile walls of their limited world vision". She's college educated and has traveled the world. I don't know what happened..You could of course ask her directly as to what happened. A question like "How did you come to believe as you do?" might produce an insight to her apparent transformation. I think, though, that being a "strong" and "experienced" person doesn't necessarily prevents one from suffering a crisis of faith.

To put this in War and Peace terms, one must wonder if she's a Princess Maria or a Pierre Bezukhov: whether her faith is absolute and unshakable or whether it is merely an outward expression of some problems inside.

IrishArmenian

11-11-2007, 04:39

Engaging in friendly debate: Why do you believe sooner or later everyone gets into heaven?
Because Christianity is focused on the salvation of the entire human race, not just the individuals. Remember the parable of the shepherd with the flock of 100 sheep and one goes astray? The shepherd spends all his time searching for that one, not resting until it is back with the rest of the flock.

ICantSpellDawg

11-11-2007, 13:54

Rhyfelwyr

11-11-2007, 16:13

I feel pretty much the same way as you, Panzer. I like Catholics best and don't trust prodies, they always seem way more extreme, despite the way media portrays it. But I was raised Catholic, so that's where the bigotry comes from. There is just something slimy and salseman-y about most evangelicals that I've met.

Either way, I've met a few Catholics that are obsessive. I tell them that they belong in the hardliner Biblical protestant movements

Have you ever had serious conversations with avowed evangelical atheists? Same slimy feeling and same blank stares.

Evangelical Christians represent just a minority of the Protestant people. Your average Protestants (eg. a Presbyterian, Anglican etc) are good Christians and good people as well. So are most Catholics, but the effects of carrying out the more radical biblical teachings have been felt by those who have listened to recent Popes. That doesn't mean the Catholic people are brainwashed fanatics, why should Protestants be discredited by a minority?

Much of the more radical Protestant movements came from people actually being able to read and understand the bible for the first time and not have an oppressive church preach it to them in a language they cannot even understand.

ICantSpellDawg

11-11-2007, 17:15

Evangelical Christians represent just a minority of the Protestant people. Your average Protestants (eg. a Presbyterian, Anglican etc) are good Christians and good people as well. So are most Catholics, but the effects of carrying out the more radical biblical teachings have been felt by those who have listened to recent Popes. That doesn't mean the Catholic people are brainwashed fanatics, why should Protestants be discredited by a minority?

Much of the more radical Protestant movements came from people actually being able to read and understand the bible for the first time and not have an oppressive church preach it to them in a language they cannot even understand.

coming from a prodie!

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

11-11-2007, 17:23

Because Christianity is focused on the salvation of the entire human race, not just the individuals. Remember the parable of the shepherd with the flock of 100 sheep and one goes astray? The shepherd spends all his time searching for that one, not resting until it is back with the rest of the flock.

John 3.18.

"Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not belive stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's only begotten Son."

In that context the parable refferes to the shepard's flock, not to the wolves outside the flock. Jesus refers to himself as the "lamb of God" and he says to the 72 "I am sending you out as lambs among wolves"

I'm sorry but I don't think there's any Biblical support for your position.

KukriKhan

11-11-2007, 17:28

Thanks for the responses. :bow:

Its like I've lost a friend. Sure she's still alive, but her mind doesn't seem to be. I used to be able to go to her for advice even when I couldn't talk to my own parents, but now her only answer is to pray.

... I could have told her I ran someone over and the answer would have been the same.

What is really scary is that this woman is not some "psychologically inadequate person who needs extreme religion to prop up the fragile walls of their limited world vision". She's college educated and has traveled the world. I don't know what happened..

There's your answer, I think. "... her mind doesn't seem to be". Your friend, the one you knew and trusted, is still there - she's just hidden behind an Altered State of Consciousness (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altered_state_of_consciousness), almost as if she's been given some drug that turned her into another person, a stranger to you inhabiting a body you once recognized.

This happens often with the "newly converted". In a moment of doubt, or depression, or other mental weakness, a "solution" gets presented to them that all of a sudden (to them) explains everything, and sets out a new, happier (for them) world view. It feels so good, is so mentally and emotionally liberating, that they feel compelled to share their new worldview with everyone they know, and to apply that worldview to every situation/problem that arises. I've seen it with converts to "New Religious Movements", chronic drinkers who quit and join Alcoholics Anonymous, druggies who join N.A., Haitian voodoo practitioners, attendees at EST (Erheart Seminar Training) sessions, and others.

In my opinion, it's not "brainwashing", because torture/deprivation is not usually involved. Rather, it's a kind of self-hypnosis for which they volunteer, in order to continue feeling the "bliss" that comes when 'all is explained-revealed.'

That need to feel the bliss of revelation will fade over time (the intensity of fervor usually goes away within 6 months or less, in my experience), unless the new believer constantly gets positive reinforcement for it by converting other new believers, and meeting with other new believers.

I don't mean to poo-poo anyone's earnestly-held beliefs that come from sudden conversion. I respect those beliefs and believe the people are sincere. They truthfully believe that who they were and what they were doing BEFORE was killing or hurting them somehow (they're often right about that, especially with alkies and druggies), and that this new person that they are provides relief.

Your friend, PJ, will return someday, probably, and have many tales of mental adventures to tell. So don't give up on her, I say. Just right now, her ability to give you useful advice is temporarily diminished. Instead of her giving to you, maybe figure out ways you can give to her - listen to her story (without getting sucked in to the conversion trap yourself), and ask honest questions about what she's done with the "Old Linda" (or whatever her name is).

Just my $19.95. :)

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

11-11-2007, 17:36

Kukri, while you make a good point you completely miss the most important aspect of Christianity as it relates to non-Christians and the reason for the conversion-imperative therein.

IrishArmenian

11-11-2007, 21:04

John 3.18.

"Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not belive stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's only begotten Son."

In that context the parable refferes to the shepard's flock, not to the wolves outside the flock. Jesus refers to himself as the "lamb of God" and he says to the 72 "I am sending you out as lambs among wolves"

I'm sorry but I don't think there's any Biblical support for your position.
My mistake, you are correct. Dually noted, I was debating this mentally. I must not've been thinking.
EDIT: By the way, I've always held a minor distrust of evangelical Churches that try to evangelise other Christians. Why do they do that? It is stupid and they are wasting their time! I've no problem with trying to show non-Christians the way, but it is foolish to believe that fellow Christians who may not be of the same sect need saving.

PanzerJaeger

11-11-2007, 22:36

Your friend, PJ, will return someday, probably, and have many tales of mental adventures to tell. So don't give up on her, I say. Just right now, her ability to give you useful advice is temporarily diminished. Instead of her giving to you, maybe figure out ways you can give to her - listen to her story (without getting sucked in to the conversion trap yourself), and ask honest questions about what she's done with the "Old Linda" (or whatever her name is).

Just my $19.95. :)

Hopefully. She will always be a part of my life, and I'm patient.

KukriKhan

11-11-2007, 23:10

Kukri, while you make a good point you completely miss the most important aspect of Christianity as it relates to non-Christians and the reason for the conversion-imperative therein.

That wouldn't surprise me in the least - I ain't that bright. Maybe you could help a brother out, and explain.

I was just reporting what I've personally observed among friends and family, that seemed similar to me, whether it was religion, or some other "surrender yourself" outfit.

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

11-12-2007, 10:51

That wouldn't surprise me in the least - I ain't that bright. Maybe you could help a brother out, and explain.

I was just reporting what I've personally observed among friends and family, that seemed similar to me, whether it was religion, or some other "surrender yourself" outfit.

Well, imagine if someone had once stopped you from commiting suicide. Stopping other people from commiting suicide might make you feel all good inside but that's not why you'd do it.

She may at some point stop trying to ramm in down Jaeger's throat but she's unlikely to stop trying to convert him because she honestly believes she is saving his soul from eternal damnation. You can't exactly get complacent about that.

Having said that, I find the mental disengagement as disturbing as anyone else here.

Myrddraal

11-12-2007, 11:47

I personally believe that there is a hell, but it's a very empty place.

Why?

If I was in heaven and I could see her suffering and know that I am fine and that if I could trade places then I would ...

I don't believe that Waldinger is more accepting, more forgiving, and more loving of his friend than God is.

HoreTore

11-12-2007, 13:41

Because Christianity is focused on the salvation of the entire human race, not just the individuals. Remember the parable of the shepherd with the flock of 100 sheep and one goes astray? The shepherd spends all his time searching for that one, not resting until it is back with the rest of the flock.

If being in heaven means spending an eternity with christians, the shepherd shouldn't bother trying to find me.

When I die, I'll slowly turn into compost. And that's it. ~;)

She may at some point stop trying to ramm in down Jaeger's throat but she's unlikely to stop trying to convert him because she honestly believes she is saving his soul from eternal damnation. You can't exactly get complacent about that.

They really do need to learn the meaning of the word "no". If I'm walking down the street and some missionaries asks me if I wan to convert or something, then fine. I'll say no, and we'll both go about our business. However, should he ask me a second time, it's unacceptable. There's a reason why we have freedom of religion.

KukriKhan

11-12-2007, 13:44

So, the afterlife closely resembles... a tomato.

HoreTore

11-12-2007, 13:46

So, the afterlife closely resembles... a tomato.

As far as I know... But hey, I'll find it out when I get there :yes:

Husar

11-12-2007, 16:08

However, should he ask me a second time, it's unacceptable. There's a reason why we have freedom of religion.
Unacceptable?
You know you can tell me God doesn't exist, but once you do it a second time that's unacceptable, now let me go and have a look at your posts here... :dizzy2:

So, the afterlife closely resembles... a tomato.
:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

As far as I know... But hey, I'll find it out when I get there :yes:
Yeah, when it's really warm and getting warmer and warmer and warmer and warmer......you'll know you're in hell. Or maybe it gets colder and colder, depends on what you like less.
You'll also probably find some demons posing as christians there only to annoy you. ~;)

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

11-12-2007, 18:46

If being in heaven means spending an eternity with christians, the shepherd shouldn't bother trying to find me.

Thanks for that, you might try being a little more tactful in future. In any case you've missed the point of the scripture we were discussing.

They really do need to learn the meaning of the word "no". If I'm walking down the street and some missionaries asks me if I wan to convert or something, then fine. I'll say no, and we'll both go about our business. However, should he ask me a second time, it's unacceptable. There's a reason why we have freedom of religion.

No, you need to accept that their world view compels them to try to convert you in the same way your mother forced you to eat your greens. Then again, since you're not a Christian I suppose there's no reason for you to be tollerant and forgiving.

HoreTore

11-12-2007, 20:39

No, you need to accept that their world view compels them to try to convert you in the same way your mother forced you to eat your greens. Then again, since you're not a Christian I suppose there's no reason for you to be tollerant and forgiving.

They should accept that I have no need for their harassment. I really don't like people annoying me, and they do that if they continue pestering me. I have no problems with them doing it once, but repeated harassment... :whip:

I really, really don't care whether they want to save me from eternal damnation or not. I've made my choice, and they have to accept that.

@Husar: I haven't followed you in the streets, now have I? ~;)

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

11-12-2007, 20:58

They should accept that I have no need for their harassment. I really don't like people annoying me, and they do that if they continue pestering me. I have no problems with them doing it once, but repeated harassment... :whip:

I really, really don't care whether they want to save me from eternal damnation or not. I've made my choice, and they have to accept that.

@Husar: I haven't followed you in the streets, now have I? ~;)

You're still not engaging with the key point here. Yes, harrassing random strangers on the street is not something that you should do, but that's not the case in point. If you care about someone then you don't want them to walk off a cliff/take hard drugs/self harm etc.

You're just going to have to get your head around the fact that for a Christian not believing in God is one hundred times worse than all of those put together to the power of infinity.

HoreTore

11-12-2007, 21:04

You're still not engaging with the key point here. Yes, harrassing random strangers on the street is not something that you should do, but that's not the case in point. If you care about someone then you don't want them to walk off a cliff/take hard drugs/self harm etc.

You're just going to have to get your head around the fact that for a Christian not believing in God is one hundred times worse than all of those put together to the power of infinity.

I do understand that. But the question that remains is: So what? Shouldn't they learn to accept that I don't care about what they believe, and that they simply have to learn to accept that if I want to jump off a cliff then it's my bloody right to do so?

I want none of it, and they have to live with that.

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

11-12-2007, 22:03

I do understand that. But the question that remains is: So what? Shouldn't they learn to accept that I don't care about what they believe, and that they simply have to learn to accept that if I want to jump off a cliff then it's my bloody right to do so?

Well; from their (and my) perspective you don't have the right to jump off the cliff. More to the point, they aren't allowed to let you.

I want none of it, and they have to live with that.

They do, and ten to one they find it heart breaking, so you'll have to live with that.

For myself though, having established that you are closed minded I'd probably go off and talk to someone else, unless you had something else interesting to say.

Rhyfelwyr

11-12-2007, 22:05

For myself though, having established that you are closed minded I'd probably go off and talk to someone else, unless you had something else interesting to say.

:drama3:

HoreTore

11-12-2007, 22:09

Well; from their (and my) perspective you don't have the right to jump off the cliff. More to the point, they aren't allowed to let you.

I expect them to follow the laws of the country we live in more than their holy book. And the law is pretty clear; I have every right to choose the path I like the most. What they think of my choice is irrelevant, as they don't matter.

They do, and ten to one they find it heart breaking, so you'll have to live with that.

I'll have no problem with that.

For myself though, having established that you are closed minded I'd probably go off and talk to someone else, unless you had something else interesting to say.

I don't think I'm close minded. But, I've had a long, hard look at christianity, and I've found out that I don't want any of it. I don't see how that makes me close minded.

Husar

11-12-2007, 23:20

I do understand that. But the question that remains is: So what? Shouldn't they learn to accept that I don't care about what they believe, and that they simply have to learn to accept that if I want to jump off a cliff then it's my bloody right to do so?
So when you want to jump off a building and the police shows up with psychologists, firefighters, medics etc, you will be angry at them for harassing you?
Also apparently they also think that you shouldn't kill yourself.

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

11-12-2007, 23:28

I expect them to follow the laws of the country we live in more than their holy book. And the law is pretty clear; I have every right to choose the path I like the most. What they think of my choice is irrelevant, as they don't matter.

Well then your choice is irrelevant as you don't matter, in which case they have a right to impose their views on you. Circular logic my friend. As I already said, you shouldn't chase people down the street, but equally if a member of your family was a Christian I would expect them to try to convert you, just not all the time. It gets to be a drag after a while.

I'll have no problem with that.

Well I wouldn't want you to fake it out of guilt, that doesn't help anyone.

I don't think I'm close minded. But, I've had a long, hard look at christianity, and I've found out that I don't want any of it. I don't see how that makes me close minded.

Philosophically speaking Christianity has many very positive ellements, not least love and tollerance towards others that don't share your views. So saying "I don't want any of it" itself seems closed minded and frankly if you think it's so negative I can't believe you've actually had a good look at Christianity, maybe one negative sect but that's hardly representative.

Far beyond that though from what I have read in this thread and elsewhere you are unable to accept the idea of a divine being, your mind is closed to the posibility, which is why you talk about Christianity as a philosophy rather than a religion.

That was my point.

Oh, and being a Christian really sucks.

HoreTore

11-13-2007, 07:44

Well then your choice is irrelevant as you don't matter, in which case they have a right to impose their views on you. Circular logic my friend.

No, they do not. That's not legal under our laws.

Philosophically speaking Christianity has many very positive ellements, not least love and tollerance towards others that don't share your views. So saying "I don't want any of it" itself seems closed minded and frankly if you think it's so negative I can't believe you've actually had a good look at Christianity, maybe one negative sect but that's hardly representative.

The idea of accepting a set of rules, to say that "this is good", is something I see as irrational. If I became a christian, I would have to accept the bible as a set of rules and I'd have to live with it. That is why I'm agnostic. Whether the rules in question are good or bad is irrelevant.

Btw, tolerance towards those who don't share their beliefs? Is it tolerant to say to someone that they're going to burn in hell unless they convert...?

Far beyond that though from what I have read in this thread and elsewhere you are unable to accept the idea of a divine being, your mind is closed to the posibility, which is why you talk about Christianity as a philosophy rather than a religion.

Unable to accept? I'd say that I have no need to accept a divine being. Besides, divine beings generally aren't very logical or rational...

Adrian II

11-13-2007, 09:11

There's your answer, I think. "... her mind doesn't seem to be". Your friend, the one you knew and trusted, is still there - she's just hidden behind an Altered State of Consciousness (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altered_state_of_consciousness), almost as if she's been given some drug that turned her into another person, a stranger to you inhabiting a body you once recognized.

This happens often with the "newly converted". In a moment of doubt, or depression, or other mental weakness, a "solution" gets presented to them that all of a sudden (to them) explains everything, and sets out a new, happier (for them) world view. It feels so good, is so mentally and emotionally liberating, that they feel compelled to share their new worldview with everyone they know, and to apply that worldview to every situation/problem that arises. I've seen it with converts to "New Religious Movements", chronic drinkers who quit and join Alcoholics Anonymous, druggies who join N.A., Haitian voodoo practitioners, attendees at EST (Erheart Seminar Training) sessions, and others.

In my opinion, it's not "brainwashing", because torture/deprivation is not usually involved. Rather, it's a kind of self-hypnosis for which they volunteer, in order to continue feeling the "bliss" that comes when 'all is explained-revealed.'

That need to feel the bliss of revelation will fade over time (the intensity of fervor usually goes away within 6 months or less, in my experience), unless the new believer constantly gets positive reinforcement for it by converting other new believers, and meeting with other new believers.

I don't mean to poo-poo anyone's earnestly-held beliefs that come from sudden conversion. I respect those beliefs and believe the people are sincere. They truthfully believe that who they were and what they were doing BEFORE was killing or hurting them somehow (they're often right about that, especially with alkies and druggies), and that this new person that they are provides relief.

Your friend, PJ, will return someday, probably, and have many tales of mental adventures to tell. So don't give up on her, I say. Just right now, her ability to give you useful advice is temporarily diminished. Instead of her giving to you, maybe figure out ways you can give to her - listen to her story (without getting sucked in to the conversion trap yourself), and ask honest questions about what she's done with the "Old Linda" (or whatever her name is).

Just my $19.95. :)Make that $1000, Kukrikhan.
This is the sort of answer to Panzer's dilemma that I wanted to give - before I read yours, which is much better and obviously inspired by intense personal experience. I haven't known that many 'fanatics' of any faith, but the ones I know are almost all fresh converts who want to erase their previous ego, lifestyle or tragic experiences.

In my own experience, it helps if you keep seeing the person but without ever being (or seeming) judgmental about their new-found beliefs. If they want to reconnect, they will do so one day, all by themselves, because you have been a friend to them in spite of the estrangement due to their conversion. And they will start talking about the real issues that they were obscuring behind the veil of fanaticism and the 'vacuous stare'. You haven't lost a friend yet, Panzerjaeger. Make sure you are there if and when she needs you.

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

11-13-2007, 10:53

No, they do not. That's not legal under our laws.

Read more carefully and quote properly, I was attacking your logic not your point. I already said they shouldn't harrass you in the street.

The idea of accepting a set of rules, to say that "this is good", is something I see as irrational. If I became a christian, I would have to accept the bible as a set of rules and I'd have to live with it. That is why I'm agnostic. Whether the rules in question are good or bad is irrelevant.

That is a very weak arguement, if God exists his rules are good, but you don't sign up for the rules. You do it because you believe.

Btw, tolerance towards those who don't share their beliefs? Is it tolerant to say to someone that they're going to burn in hell unless they convert...?

Your first post in this thread was an attack on Christians and Christian belief, you offered nothing constructive regarding Jaegar's problem. To answer your question though, yes, because no one is trying to burn you at the stake.

Unable to accept? I'd say that I have no need to accept a divine being. Besides, divine beings generally aren't very logical or rational...

Well you are either refusing or unable to engage my arguement.

HoreTore

11-13-2007, 11:00

if God exists his rules are good

Uhm.... Why, exactly?

I already said they shouldn't harrass you in the street.

I don't think they should be able to harass me anywhere, in any form. Ask me once, ok, but accept a no. Repeated questioning is unacceptable. I've made my choice, and it's none of their business. What their religion says about it is rather irrelevant to me. Their religion may command them to convert the unbelievers as much as it wants to, but that is still no justification for trying to convert me. If practicing their religion involves me in any way, they shouldn't be allowed to practice their religion.

Husar

11-13-2007, 13:15

Uhm.... Why, exactly?
Because someone who is described as almighty, all-knowing and 100% just would be someone who gives the ultimate definition of what is good and what is not. You might disagree with his definition but then you're imperfect, guilty and human. ~;)

I don't think they should be able to harass me anywhere, in any form. Ask me once, ok, but accept a no. Repeated questioning is unacceptable. I've made my choice, and it's none of their business. What their religion says about it is rather irrelevant to me.
Why is it unacceptable? You know, there are some people in the city asking me to join the fitness company or save the whales and dolphins and they asked me repeatedly, should they be thrown in jail? :inquisitive:

Their religion may command them to convert the unbelievers as much as it wants to, but that is still no justification for trying to convert me. If practicing their religion involves me in any way, they shouldn't be allowed to practice their religion.
So you want to take away freedom of religion because it's more comfortable for you? :inquisitive:
The evil hobby psychologist in me would say you're afraid that what they say is true and that's why you try to forget it and don't want to be reminded of it. ~;p

naut

11-13-2007, 13:21

In my case I believe because I fear nothingness.
Same, it gives me a empty, soul-renching feeling inside. But then again there is no way to comprehend what is beyond, because how can we imagine what we in principal cannot imagine?

Me, well I'd have to say I'm an Anglican, but I don't bring up the topic ever with people I know don't want to hear about it, which is essentially everyone. But, in all honesty I like Buddhism, and I often notice happenings that could be deemed "karmic" in my everyday life.

Death both scares me, and it doesn't. Because I believe that whatever lies out of human perception and stretches into the debris filled cosmos, surely cannot be that painful. Because if it was that bad and painful, I think we'd have evolved to live for ever and never pass into it.

Very good title I must say PJ.

HoreTore

11-13-2007, 13:26

Because someone who is described as almighty, all-knowing and 100% just would be someone who gives the ultimate definition of what is good and what is not. You might disagree with his definition but then you're imperfect, guilty and human. ~;)

How do you define whether someone is just or not? Based on what people call him, or by his actions? I would say by his actions. And to me, they certainly are not just nor good.

Why is it unacceptable? You know, there are some people in the city asking me to join the fitness company or save the whales and dolphins and they asked me repeatedly, should they be thrown in jail? :inquisitive:

If you find it harassing and inform them of the fact, but they still continue, it's pretty clear.

So you want to take away freedom of religion because it's more comfortable for you? :inquisitive:
The evil hobby psychologist in me would say you're afraid that what they say is true and that's why you try to forget it and don't want to be reminded of it. ~;p

Freedom of religion also means freedom from religion. They have no right to take away my freedom from religion.

Adrian II

11-13-2007, 15:10

Gentlemen, this thread isn't about God's rules. It is about one man, his old friend and his feeling of loss.

Husar

11-13-2007, 17:25

Gentlemen, this thread isn't about God's rules. It is about one man, his old friend and his feeling of loss.
You're right, but HoreTore keeps derailing threads with his personal anti-christian crusade, it's all his fault. ~;)

The original topic seems to be mostly done though, wouldn't say it's a lost friend, you could start by telling her that God doesn't seem to answer and you'd like her opinion on the matter, christians should also help eachother after all, tell her that letting God do all the work is not what the bible says either. Of course you should do it carefully without hurting her or making her look stupid, but maybe it's an approach.

Fragony

11-13-2007, 17:28

You're right, but HoreTore keeps derailing threads with his personal anti-christian crusade, it's all his fault. ~;)

Hang it upside down and kick it, reverse psycholigy

HoreTore

11-13-2007, 18:16

:laugh4: :laugh4:

Always wanted to use this one:

:hijacked:

Myrddraal

11-13-2007, 18:18

I think if you feel that someone trying to 'convert' you is some kind of attack which you must fear, you're taking the wrong attitude.

A good friend of mine was bothered by Jehovas witnesses, he invited them into his house, and talked to them about Catholicism. If you consider that someone who's trying to tell you their point of you (because they believe it's important that you hear that point of view) is trying to harass you, then you'll never engage with them.

You're raising a barrier between them and you, rather than actually trying to find the truth (and that could be that the person in question has nothing to say you haven't heard before, and they should come over to your way of thinking, whatever)

When people have their 'defences' up, conversation about religion isn't likely to go anywhere (take a look at the backroom for example :wink:). A friend of mine takes every opportunity to ridicule religion he gets, I just don't talk to him about it, there's no point, I don't think he even knows I'm Christian.

But people put up these defences for a reason, I think Christians are often partially to blame for this problem by their attitude. Recently I heard at mass the passage about Zacchaeus. Any Christians thinking of trying to persuade someone that God exists should imo read the passage and ask yourselves with what attitude did Jesus approach the man.

HoreTore

11-13-2007, 18:44

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

11-13-2007, 18:56

The thing is, Myrddraal, I have no problem with people trying to convert me, and I've engaged with them a few times when I've been in that mood. That's all good. But the problem arises when I say no, and they continue. That's when they've crossed the line. Ask me, then if I say yes, they may continue. If I say no, then they should go away. There's no excuse for continuing after I've given them the no.

No excuse? How about:

they think you're going to hell and they want to save you from yourself, that seems like a pretty good reason never mind excuses.

As I said, you simply don't comprehend what's at stake for these people.

Husar

11-13-2007, 18:59

Very good post Myrddraal. :2thumbsup:

And HoreTore, the only thing I'm opposing is that you make it looks like some crime by using words such as "unacceptable", "crossed the line", "no excuse". That sounds like it gave you the right to shoot them or so. :sweatdrop:

Yes, they shouldn't do it, no it's not "unacceptable", it's perfectly acceptable if you choose not to get worked up over it. ~;)

HoreTore

11-13-2007, 19:01

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

11-13-2007, 19:03

Not nearly good enough.

Your eternal soul isn't good enough?

I mean crikey, talk about intollerant, you're not even willing to try to see it from the other side, are you?

HoreTore

11-13-2007, 19:06

Your eternal soul isn't good enough?

I mean crikey, talk about intollerant, you're not even willing to try to see it from the other side, are you?

How willing are to see things from my side?

To put it simple: Please do explain to me why I should allow people to annoy me.

Whacker

11-13-2007, 19:26

Your eternal soul isn't good enough?

I mean crikey, talk about intollerant, you're not even willing to try to see it from the other side, are you?

What he's trying to politely say to those people at that point is, "Get out of my face."

To put it in perspective with the counterview.

Whereas you are convinced I'm going to this "hell" of yours, I think you're wasting your life living by a set of standards that claim to teach love and peace, yet also teach bigotry and prejudice on behalf of some 'god' you can't demonstrate or prove exists. You don't see me going around on the streets with a militant "You are a prejudiced, judgmental person who's living a horrible life, change!" attitude. As such I expect the same attitude and courtesy that I extend to you and others. Leave me in peace and I'll leave you in peace, your "I'm right you're wrong you need to be saved!" mindset is rude and uncalled for, not everyone believes that nonsense.

That may not be the most polite way of putting it, but at some point the gloves come off when someone won't get out of your face spewing what you view as garbage.

Edit - For clarification, "you" is understood to be a general reference.

Husar

11-13-2007, 19:30

Whacker

11-13-2007, 19:40

Stop posting that garbage Whacker, that your view is deluted by the devil is obvious, no need to persist on telling us that you think of christians as stupid, that's unacceptable.
Your eyes will be opened on the day of final judgement when it will be hard to prove the nonexistance of God to God... ~;p
Hey, I'm just representing another view of the puzzle, seeing how there's already quite a bit of sanctimonious christianity in this thread already. If I'm going to get modded then fine, but there's a ton of other statements in this thread that'd better get deleted too. People often seem to forget that there are those who find chrisianity offensive, and don't want to hear about it.

I can't wait to be omgwtfbbqpwnt by this god of yours when I die. He'll have to get in line of course, there's apparently quite a few other deities that I've spurned who are going to do so as well. :rolleyes:

Edit - Humor value not high to non-IRCers.

Husar

11-13-2007, 19:43

And all this coming from a 22 year old who still hasn't had anything resembling a real date in years, talks about going to clubs as sinful, and then whines about not meeting any girls who meet his 'standards' constantly in the IRC channel? :rolleyes:
Don't know what the ultimate truth has to do with me and if you still think I'm whining when I'm not, I think it's futile to try to tell you anything as apparently I'm unable to break through. :shrug:

edit: I also think the thread is finally hijacked.

edit2: I see it might have been a joke attempt by Whacker but when someone insists on me being something I'm not that can upset me easily, shame upon me.

Csargo

11-13-2007, 19:48

Hey, I'm just representing another view of the puzzle, seeing how there's already quite a bit of sanctimonious christianity in this thread already. If I'm going to get modded then fine, but there's a ton of other statements in this thread that'd better get deleted too. People often seem to forget that there are those who find chrisianity offensive.

I can't wait to be omgwtfbbqpwnt by this god of yours when I die. He'll have to get in line of course, there's apparently quite a few other deities that I've spurned who are going to do so as well. :rolleyes:

Edit - Lost humor value.

I find this quite amusing. :D

Proletariat

11-13-2007, 19:50

C'mon Whacker, you just proved his point. No sense in yelling at someone to stop converting you when he wasn't even trying to.

You can say that all Christianity sucks and you hate the notion that the religion itself is predicated on evangelism, but going that route is nearly saying 'I just can't keep my calm around Christians.' It'd be one thing if a Christian was harassing you day and night or coming at you violently, but in all my experiance they usually just want a discourse or a friendly chat on why you don't believe. Only a zealot or someone suffering from religiosity goes much further than that, and I'm not really in the company of those people (nor is anyone else who doesn't seek it out)

Edit: blah, sorry PJ, fwiw, I thought your op was one of the best things I've read on here recently, very touching, I can relate sincerely with a few people I know.
Edit 2: I didn't see your last post when I wrote this, Whacker. I prefer Sanctimonious Atheist. :P

Csargo

11-13-2007, 19:54

ROFLPWNED but who?

Whacker

11-13-2007, 19:55

C'mon Whacker, you just proved his point. No sense in yelling at someone to stop converting you when he wasn't even trying to.

You missed my point, I was providing that text as an example. I wasn't yelling AT anyone.

You can say that all Christianity sucks and you hate the notion that the religion itself is predicated on evangelism, but going that route is nearly saying 'I just can't keep my calm around Christians.' It'd be one thing if a Christian was harassing you day and night or coming at you violently, but in all my experiance they usually just want a discourse or a friendly chat on why you don't believe. Only a zealot or someone suffering from religiosity goes much further than that, and I'm not really in the company of those people (nor is anyone else who doesn't seek it out)

Ah, never been to college I take it? /sarcasm

I guess my thing at this point is that I've had the unfortunate luck to have more than enough of those evangelical, militant types cross my path in life, and I've been beyond sick of it. My original post here was to expound on Horetore's point and provide a counterexample to the smug evangelical attitudes running rampant in this thread. So I guess by jumping in and providing a counterpoint, I "can't keep my calm" and "proved someone's point for them?" I love it how that's the case whenever arguing w/christians, the second one gets a bit tired of the dogma and rhetoric and a bit of venom slips into the conversation to counter the self-righteous condescending christian attitude, the agnostic/atheist is suddenly and immediately the evil, violent, irrational type.

AntiochusIII

11-13-2007, 21:43

Ladies and Gentlemen, let me quote the Red Inquisitor's words again:

Gentlemen, this thread isn't about God's rules. It is about one man, his old friend and his feeling of loss.

Also, let me be helpful and say what I think is going on here:

Panzer: My friend had become an evangelist. Her eyes have become blank with blind faith. What do I do?

People: [comments and advices]

HoreTore: Totally Panzer. I'm sick of those damn evangelist types too.

Philipvs: You have to understand their side though, to them your soul is at stake. They want to do you good.

HoreTore: Well, no means no. [gets militant, anti-Christian]

Philipvs: [gets condescending...and amusingly enough also evangelical]

[flame war]

What I have to say is, HoreTore & co., from the point of view of those who seek your conversion your annoyance is a mere trifle. It is likely that some understand and also wants to be polite, but to them something greater is at stake here: your soul, your salvation. They believe sincerely (most anyway) that what they're doing, even if it annoys you, is for good in the end. Like Socrates, who bothers Athens with his endless musings, even lost his life to it, but he tried to make Athens see her own vanity and dark side. It doesn't matter if you're annoyed, annoyance is far less terrible than an eternity in Hell. Stop complaining already. We get the point.

Philipvs and co., on the other hand, you should recognize that HoreTore has a perfect right to be completely pissed off and annoyed about it, and he can rant and rage as he want and be justified to a point. For you it might be saving his soul, but for him you're just wasting the precious one-time trip he has on Earth with a lot of nonsense. Stop being condescending and evangelical about it. Not everybody thinks your God even exists. I don't for one.

There.

Edit: Misspellings and wrong words.

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

11-13-2007, 21:49

How willing are to see things from my side?

To put it simple: Please do explain to me why I should allow people to annoy me.

You have every right to annoy me, frankly comments such as "If heaven is full of Christians I'm not interested" is just flat out offensive to all Christians. They are not allowed to persecute you but at the same time you have to get it into your head that Christians will always want to convert you and that if they were not trying to convert you they would be, in their view, committing an injustice against you.

What he's trying to politely say to those people at that point is, "Get out of my face."

To put it in perspective with the counterview.

Whereas you are convinced I'm going to this "hell" of yours, I think you're wasting your life living by a set of standards that claim to teach love and peace, yet also teach bigotry and prejudice on behalf of some 'god' you can't demonstrate or prove exists. You don't see me going around on the streets with a militant "You are a prejudiced, judgmental person who's living a horrible life, change!" attitude. As such I expect the same attitude and courtesy that I extend to you and others. Leave me in peace and I'll leave you in peace, your "I'm right you're wrong you need to be saved!" mindset is rude and uncalled for, not everyone believes that nonsense.

That may not be the most polite way of putting it, but at some point the gloves come off when someone won't get out of your face spewing what you view as garbage.

Edit - For clarification, "you" is understood to be a general reference.

You've called my view "garbage" repeatedly, I have always tried to respond to your arguement rather than you invective. I don't believe the gloves ever need to come off any more than I believe the knives need to come out.

To say that the "mindset" is uncalled for though is frankly counter intuitive, you're opposing your opinion against an article of faith, it doesn't work like that. Very simply, if you are a Christian then it is your duty to try to convince others, most of us don't go in for the walking the street "outreach" thing as it's largely ineffective, and, for the the final time:

Chasing someone down the streat waving Mr Echo's Jesus stick at them is not acceptable.

You missed my point, I was providing that text as an example. I wasn't yelling AT anyone.

Ah, never been to college I take it? /sarcasm

I guess my thing at this point is that I've had the unfortunate luck to have more than enough of those evangelical, militant types cross my path in life, and I've been beyond sick of it. My original post here was to expound on Horetore's point and provide a counterexample to the smug evangelical attitudes running rampant in this thread. So I guess by jumping in and providing a counterpoint, I "can't keep my calm" and "proved someone's point for them?" I love it how that's the case whenever arguing w/christians, the second one gets a bit tired of the dogma and rhetoric and a bit of venom slips into the conversation to counter the self-righteous condescending christian attitude, the agnostic/atheist is suddenly and immediately the evil, violent, irrational type.

Just to be very clear: Am I a smug evangelical?

In the mean time, no one has called you evil, violent or irrational, that is a gross and offensive generalisation. Most Christians don't do that. In fact, that would be against Christian teaching. If you actually want to have a debate stop using such provocative language.

HoreTore

11-13-2007, 21:49

:laugh4:

You did miss the Husar vs. Whacker flamewar though.

HoreTore

11-13-2007, 21:54

You have every right to annoy me, frankly comments such as "If heaven is full of Christians I'm not interested" is just flat out offensive to all Christians. They are not allowed to persecute you but at the same time you have to get it into your head that Christians will always want to convert you and that if they were not trying to convert you they would be, in their view, committing an injustice against you.

Look here; in this country, we have a great book. When a person lives here, he automatically agrees to put that book above every other book. If he doesn't, then he's free to find himself another country to live. That book is called "Norway's laws". In that book, it's written plain and simple, that I have protection from religious people that want to convert me. They have no right to do so according to that book. And, as these people have accepted to put that book above all other books by living in this country, they are forced to follow it, and they should therefore stop trying to convert me, no matter what any other books say.

It really is very simple.

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

11-13-2007, 21:57

Ladies and Gentlemen, let me quote the Red Inquisitor's words again:

Also, let me be helpful and say what I think is going on here:

Panzer: My friend had become an evangelist. Her eyes have become blank with blind faith. What do I do?

People: [comments and advices]

HoreTore: Totally Panzer. I'm sick of those damn evangelist types too.

Philipvs: You have to understand their side though, to them your soul is at stake. They want to do you good.

HoreTore: Well, no means no. [gets militant, anti-Christian]

Philipvs: [gets condescending...and amusingly enough also evangelical]

[flame war]

What I have to say is, HoreTore & co., from the point of view of those who seek your conversion your annoyance is a mere trifle. It is likely that some understand and also wants to be polite, but to them something greater is at stake here: your soul, your salvation. They believe sincerely (most anyway) that what they're doing, even if it annoys you, is for good in the end. Like Socrates, who bothers Athens with his endless musings, even lost his life to it, but he tried to make Athens see her own vanity and dark side. It doesn't matter if you're annoyed, annoyance is far less terrible than an eternity in Hell. Stop complaining already. We get the point.

Philipvs and co., on the other hand, you should recognize that HoreTore has a perfect right to be completely pissed off and annoyed about it, and he can rant and rage as he want and be justified to a point. For you it might be saving his soul, but for him you're just wasting the precious one-time trip he has on Earth with a lot of nonsense. Stop being condescending and evangelical about it. Not everybody thinks your God even exists. I don't for one.

There.

Edit: Misspellings and wrong words.

Now, that I can accept. I only made the point originally because I didn't Jaegar to think that Christianity was something his friend was going "get over" because I felt that was a false hope to hold out to him.

Now, can we deconstruct my points and excise some of the evangelism please? Getting rid of as much condecension as possible would also be good.

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

11-13-2007, 22:03

Look here; in this country, we have a great book. When a person lives here, he automatically agrees to put that book above every other book. If he doesn't, then he's free to find himself another country to live. That book is called "Norway's laws". In that book, it's written plain and simple, that I have protection from religious people that want to convert me. They have no right to do so according to that book. And, as these people have accepted to put that book above all other books by living in this country, they are forced to follow it, and they should therefore stop trying to convert me, no matter what any other books say.

It really is very simple.

So in Norwagian Law it's actually illegal for me to say "I think you should become a Christian?"

Or am I allowed to say it so long as I don't try to ram it down your throat?

Do you see that as an actual answer to Christians wanting to convert you?

Whacker

11-13-2007, 22:04

Well said Antiochus, I will say this last last bit, then I'm done.

You've called my view "garbage" repeatedly, I have always tried to respond to your arguement rather than you invective. I don't believe the gloves ever need to come off any more than I believe the knives need to come out.

To say that the "mindset" is uncalled for though is frankly counter intuitive, you're opposing your opinion against an article of faith, it doesn't work like that. Very simply, if you are a Christian then it is your duty to try to convince others, most of us don't go in for the walking the street "outreach" thing as it's largely ineffective, and, for the the final time:

Chasing someone down the streat waving Mr Echo's Jesus stick at them is not acceptable.

Yes, I do think christianity is garbage, so I guess your view (taken from your statements) that as such, I'm a sinner and going to hell for not believing evens it out in the end. You say otherwise, but then you're just contradicting yourself and being a hypocrite, you've already made your views clear. Either way it doesn't matter, it's personal opinion. And not all christian doctrines involve actively spreading the faith, just a little FYI, so please don't try to represent all christians in your opinions.

Second, chasing down the street, standing in our way, shoving books in our faces, repeatedly attempting to talk to us, calling on the phone, knocking on doors, begging, pleading, bugging, shouting, harranging, etc etc etc is unacceptable after someone has already said no, period. Folks need to keep it to themselves, and realize when no means no, and enough is enough.

Just to be very clear: Am I a smug evangelical?

:rolleyes: :laugh4: What you've posted in here so far is no different from what I've said, it's just the other side of the fence.

In the mean time, no one has called you evil, violent or irrational, that is a gross and offensive generalisation. Most Christians don't do that. In fact, that would be against Christian teaching. If you actually want to have a debate stop using such provocative language.

I'm not asking for a debate, I'm supporting Hore's earlier statement against yours. People must learn to back off, period, it doesn't matter if it contradicts your dogma. People have a right to peace and privacy, constantly calling on the phone, knocking on the door, chasing us down the streets, pleading, shouting epithets, etc, is all out of bounds. "No Soliciting" and "No." means no, end of story.

Edit -

Do you see that as an actual answer to Christians wanting to convert you?

I think you don't get it. We know the story, we've heard it 100 times before. We don't care. We don't share your beliefs. We don't want to talk about it. If we're interested, then we'll come to talk you about it. It doesn't matter what you think or feel or "know" is right, it's our lives and we don't want to be constantly molested and harassed about it. Enough is enough is the point being made here.

HoreTore

11-13-2007, 22:08

So in Norwagian Law it's actually illegal for me to say "I think you should become a Christian?"

Or am I allowed to say it so long as I don't try to ram it down your throat?

Do you see that as an actual answer to Christians wanting to convert you?

Repeated conversion attempts would hinder my freedom of religion, and as such be against the law.

I have no problem of them wanting to convert me, but they only get one shot at it. If I say no the first time, I expect them to respect my choice and leave it at that. What their book says about it is irrelevant, they should respect my wishes.

Louis VI the Fat

11-13-2007, 22:27

Louis VI the Fat

11-13-2007, 22:32

I Was Saved Last Night, So Why Do I Feel All Icky...

Last night a DJ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDQLgYoCKlE) saved My life...https://img141.imageshack.us/img141/6641/lookarounddw0.gif

woad&fangs

11-13-2007, 22:32

Thank you, Louis.

By the way, where did you get that smiley?

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

11-13-2007, 22:44

Repeated conversion attempts would hinder my freedom of religion, and as such be against the law.

I have no problem of them wanting to convert me, but they only get one shot at it. If I say no the first time, I expect them to respect my choice and leave it at that. What their book says about it is irrelevant, they should respect my wishes.

Okay, fine. I still think that there's a difference when it's someone you know rather than a complete stranger. As I have already said, repeatedly, harrassment isn't something I endorse and it's counter-productive in all sorts of ways. As I said, my point throughout has been to differentiate between the guy with the "Repent, the End is Nigh!" sign on the street and the close Christian friend who will periodically engage you in debate on the subject.

Yes, I do think christianity is garbage, so I guess your view (taken from your statements) that as such, I'm a sinner and going to hell for not believing evens it out in the end. You say otherwise, but then you're just contradicting yourself and being a hypocrite, you've already made your views clear. Either way it doesn't matter, it's personal opinion. And not all christian doctrines involve actively spreading the faith, just a little FYI, so please don't try to represent all christians in your opinions.

Salvation through Christ is a central tenet of Christian belief, dogma, scripture and liturgy. I could lie to you but I don't see the point in being dishonest about my beliefs, I have plenty of Atheistic friends and we get on fine. It's a non-issue most of the time. I think you'd struggle to find a non missionary branch of Christianity though.

Second, chasing down the street, standing in our way, shoving books in our faces, repeatedly attempting to talk to us, calling on the phone, knocking on doors, begging, pleading, bugging, shouting, harranging, etc etc etc is unacceptable after someone has already said no, period. Folks need to keep it to themselves, and realize when no means no, and enough is enough.

ah, I see. Now this makes a lot more sense. I don't do any of that, if someone does it to me I tend to get quite upset. In fact most Christians over here don't go in for that at all. I don't think I've actually engaged in a very strenuous debate in this thread even. The only time I've actually engaged in theological discourse was with Irish Armenian right near the beggining. Beyond that all I've said is that you have to accept that Christians believe what they believe and that they see it as their duty to convert you.

:rolleyes: :laugh4: What you've posted in here so far is no different from what I've said, it's just the other side of the fence.

If you think I'm an evangelical then you've never had the misfortune to meet one.

I'm not asking for a debate, I'm supporting Hore's earlier statement against yours. People must learn to back off, period, it doesn't matter if it contradicts your dogma. People have a right to peace and privacy, constantly calling on the phone, knocking on the door, chasing us down the streets, pleading, shouting epithets, etc, is all out of bounds. "No Soliciting" and "No." means no, end of story.

At what point did I ask you to become a Christian? Hore's statement started us off on this, and I'll tell you now it was offensive. As I originally said, people don't "get over" the conversion-imperative with Christianity, so when Kukri made his very well thought out post I felt it was important to made that clear, lest Jaegar think his friend was just going to give up on changing his mind.

THAT has been my point throughout. Christians don't give up, they're not aloud to.

I think you don't get it. We know the story, we've heard it 100 times before. We don't care. We don't share your beliefs. We don't want to talk about it. If we're interested, then we'll come to talk you about it. It doesn't matter what you think or feel or "know" is right, it's our lives and we don't want to be constantly molested and harassed about it. Enough is enough is the point being made here.

No, I get it. That's entirely your perogative and it's something intellectually I don't have a problem with. Having said that, I'm never going to like it and there is no answer to the Christian desire to convert from within Christian belief.

So for HoreTore to say "I told them no, they should go away" doesn't cut it from a Christian perspective it's an arguement that doesn't engage with the issue for the Christian in question.

Having said that, you don't have to pester him, you could go off and talk to someone who's actually interested, which is what you should do. That's not theologically justifyable though.

Do you see the distinction I am trying to make here?

Louis VI the Fat

11-13-2007, 22:49

Thank you, Louis.

By the way, where did you get that smiley?Banque de Smileys (http://smileys.sur-la-toile.com/categorie3-Anges+et+d%E9mons.html), under the header 'anges et démons'. Brilliant site, although the language might make searching for fun ones difficult for you. http://smileys.sur-la-toile.com/repository/Respect/0028a.gif

woad&fangs

11-13-2007, 22:57

:hijacked:
Louis, you are now my new God. I bow before you

http://smileys.sur-la-toile.com/repository/Films_et_TV/combat-jedi1.gif
The battle between HoreTore and Big Latin name man rages on.(HoreTore has the red lightsaber for obvious reasons)

Husar

11-13-2007, 22:58

Too much to respond to. :sweatdrop:

Waldinger, how about your friend stops being bi(at least in deed), you both go to heaven and you both end up happy?
Otherwise I could say my best friend is pedophile, it's really sad but I don't want to stop him olesting kids so I'd rather support him on his way to hell.
Now you say being bi hurts noone, but yes it does, every sin hurts God and as a christian you love God above everyone else, even above your bi friend.
Theoretically God, being almighty, can then also "heal" your bi friend from being bi and you can live happily ever after, well, not really,but saying it's absolutely hopeless makes no sense, you have to try harder to make Christianity look stupid or superfluous. ~;)

If it was that easy, I'd already have discarded it myself. :dizzy2:

woad&fangs

11-13-2007, 23:08

Theoretically God, being almighty, can then also "heal" your bi friend from being bi and you can live happily ever after, well, not really,but saying it's absolutely hopeless makes no sense,
You can't heal a person who isn't sick to begin with.

Edit: I believe that it is the book of Job where God ruins a mans life and kills off his entire family just to win a bet with the devil. I don't trust a God like that to determine what is right and wrong.

Edit again: sorry, it was Job I was reffering to, not Jonas.

Husar

11-13-2007, 23:30

You can't heal a person who isn't sick to begin with.
A matter of definition, I'd say God's definition is different from your definition.
Apart from that I didn't say heal I said "heal", indicating that it's not necessarily healing but maybe change of DNA or so, an almighty god can do that, yes.

Edit: I believe that it is the book of Jonas where God ruins a mans life and kills off his entire family just to win a bet with the devil.
He made it to make a point, despite that killing the family and sending them to heaven just means they're better off. The man himself was rewarded and compensated for his faith afterwards and God made him happy again.
He was only happy in the end because he kept his faith in God, unlike you. ~;)

I don't trust a God like that to determine what is right and wrong.
That's the choice he leaves you, he's that generous!

Though he is ultimately right in the end anyway since he, being almighty, defines what is right and what is wrong, morals created by imperfect, powerless men ultimately don't count unless they're in line with God's morals.

woad&fangs

11-13-2007, 23:49

That's the choice he leaves you, he's that generous!

Real generous of him. I disagree with him and get to spend an eternity in constant pain and suffering or watching my friends suffer.

Also, I don't believe that homosexuality is entirely genetic. So she likes people of the same sex, I like asians, does that mean that I have a gene that makes me like asians? Some people are into whips and stuff like that. I somehow doubt that there is a gene involved in that.

Kralizec

11-14-2007, 00:05

No excuse? How about:

they think you're going to hell and they want to save you from yourself, that seems like a pretty good reason never mind excuses.

As I said, you simply don't comprehend what's at stake for these people.

Easy.

Simply informing someone about your religion and suggesting conversion is fine, but persisting after they tell you to leave is more likely to lower that person's opinion of your religion.
Their intentions would be noble, but they'd be considered annoying pests, and rightly so.

Papewaio

11-14-2007, 00:42

Salvation through Christ is a central tenet of Christian belief, dogma, scripture and liturgy. I could lie to you but I don't see the point in being dishonest about my beliefs, I have plenty of Atheistic friends and we get on fine. It's a non-issue most of the time. I think you'd struggle to find a non missionary branch of Christianity though.

The non missionary branches would wither on the vine. No converts = no continuation of that line. Its much like mating, those who choose not to mate don't reproduce. The religious groups that choose not to recruit die out too.

Obviously over time the groups that recruit the most expand the most. Numbers has an exponential effect like any network the power base goes up and up and the amount of things it has leverage over increases. Enough in the group and you get real political power, more so if the votes are in close alignment.

So it is no surprise that all successful multi-generational religious groups are missionary in nature and that they have political power. Very few groups will political power choose not to wield it.

Function of memes. :2thumbsup:

Husar

11-14-2007, 00:49

Also, I don't believe that homosexuality is entirely genetic. So she likes people of the same sex, I like asians, does that mean that I have a gene that makes me like asians? Some people are into whips and stuff like that. I somehow doubt that there is a gene involved in that.
Well, you know your choices and you know the consequences, you have a free will to choose. That's about as fair as it can be for someone who just exists to please and glorify God.

woad&fangs

11-14-2007, 01:18

bah, So we exist solely to glorify God? He seems pretty insecure for a supreme deity. Besides, Love is Gods greatest creation. I can't think of a better way to glorify him then by loving my fellow humans(who were created in Gods image so I'd also sort of be loving God in an indirect way.)

Husar, I wish you the best of luck in converting me but I doubt that you will succeed. I don't really mind these theological debates. They usually benefit both the believer and the nonbeliever(or whatever you would call me. I know I have a fairly unique outlook on this subject.)

Husar

11-14-2007, 01:37

Husar, I wish you the best of luck in converting me but I doubt that you will succeed.
That sounds rather contradictory.

To be honest, I couldn't always keep a straight face when writing my replies, I'm probably a bad christian if I am one at all. There are some issues I'm not sure about myself, I just chose to take the absolutely christian side here. ~D
I could go on but it would be pointless now. ~;)

I wasn't trying to convert you anyway, but I do think that the christian message does make sense in itself, given that God exists, but that right there is an important thing one has to believe in, or not. :shrug:

woad&fangs

11-14-2007, 01:44

I have been foooooooooooollllleddd!!!!! May you burn in Hell For YOur False beliefs and Teachinggssssssssss!!!!!:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

Oh well, I do enjoy these little theological debates.

No one can stand before the insanity that you mortals call logic.~The Prophet of Louis(AKA Me)

Sigurd

11-14-2007, 08:59

...
I wasn't trying to convert you anyway, but I do think that the christian message does make sense in itself, given that God exists, but that right there is an important thing one has to believe in, or not. :shrug:[/spoil]
Anyone want to argue this in a formal debate? (I could step in as an opponent)
Sorry to hijack your thread PJ.

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

11-14-2007, 10:46

The non missionary branches would wither on the vine. No converts = no continuation of that line. Its much like mating, those who choose not to mate don't reproduce. The religious groups that choose not to recruit die out too.

Obviously over time the groups that recruit the most expand the most. Numbers has an exponential effect like any network the power base goes up and up and the amount of things it has leverage over increases. Enough in the group and you get real political power, more so if the votes are in close alignment.

So it is no surprise that all successful multi-generational religious groups are missionary in nature and that they have political power. Very few groups will political power choose not to wield it.

Function of memes. :2thumbsup:

Maybe, but maybe God invented memes (well obviously he did, because he invented everything....)

As much as I think Dawkins is a clever chap, and memes have their place, he is far too locked into his own Anti-Deism to actually have anything valid to say about religion today.

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

11-14-2007, 11:23

KukriKhan

11-14-2007, 15:06

Personnally, from what we now know of science, I have trouble understanding why the Almighty would name a sin and then give about 10% of the population a compulsion to it.

This comes down to the authoriety of scripture, but the context of the whole issue is far from clear cut.

Ultimately though Waldinger the first question you need to ask your self is "do I believe?"

Not to get picky, but wouldn't the first question one needs to ask vis-a-viz a diety: "Must I believe?'. All else must follow from there. Either we have free will or we don't.

Myrddraal

11-14-2007, 17:15

Let me just say that I must disagree with you Husar on a subtle point. I believe that God wants what is best for us. Sins are not sins because God on a whim decides one day that it is right, simply by definition because he said so. The morals laid out in the Bible are there for our own good, and as such should be obeyed not 'because God said so' but rather because if we trust God to ask what is best for us, then we trust these morals to be the best way to live.

@Waldinger, when it comes to burning in hell for all eternity, just because you would swap places with your bi friend, then I think you're totally wrong.

Jesus gave his life for our sins. If you would swap places with your friend to save her from torture, then you are closer to God than you imagine yourself to be.

John 15:13: "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."
Wow, I'm turning into quite the preacher :laugh4:

Husar

11-14-2007, 18:37

Yes Myrd, you're right, that God defines what is right or wrong was a bit far fetched but it served the shock value. ~;)

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

11-14-2007, 19:09

Not to get picky, but wouldn't the first question one needs to ask vis-a-viz a diety: "Must I believe?'. All else must follow from there. Either we have free will or we don't.

Well, one or the other I suppose. If you have free will then you can choose to believe or not. If you don't then you can't choose, you have merely been given the illusion of choice.

So maybe it doesn't matter?

It depends on whether you believe in pre-determinism seperate from a supreme being.

Papewaio

11-14-2007, 23:33

Religions, cults and science fiction conventions are all about as credible as the other.

Religion has an advantage over the other two because of:
a) Age adding a layer of respectability. We have an innate sense of respect for ancient artifacts, art, tombs and buildings which extends to religions.
b) Mass, enough followers who have in numbers social power. Numbers are a quality all of themselves. More people that follow the more art, money, land, buildings and political power accumulates.

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

11-15-2007, 00:32

I dissagree, for starters Christianity is simply a cult, and as to Science fiction, it presents itself as fiction, and is intended to be taken litterally within itself. A lightsabre is meant to be a lightsabre.

Papewaio

11-15-2007, 01:17

How many people have entered 'Jedi' as their religion in a census...
Or
How many people want a real lightsabre.
Or
How many military programs are named after religion or science fiction.
Or
Scientology...

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

11-15-2007, 01:49

Well, you're not entirely wrong but at the same time a belief system that has endured for over two thousand years and which can claim a quarter of the world's population, give or take, as adherrents is a bit more than Sci-Fi.

At the end of the day though if you don't believe it I have no way of explaining it to you.

Papewaio

11-15-2007, 02:02

Science works on the opposite side. Its the newer claims with the lesser number of adherents that tend to be the most correct.

Number of adherents does not make it any more or less true.

Nor does the age of the cult.

Truth is truth, be it many or one, be it brand new or ancient.

Making a claim to truth should not be determined by the number or age.

So how is religion any different from a cult or a science fiction convention?

Husar

11-15-2007, 02:07

So how is religion any different from a cult or a science fiction convention?
You have to ask that the guy who said that an angel sat on the front of his car saving him from getting squashed by a big truck.

Papewaio

11-15-2007, 02:16

I didn't know that any car model was called a pinhead...

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

11-15-2007, 09:50

Science works on the opposite side. Its the newer claims with the lesser number of adherents that tend to be the most correct.

I don't think Science is relevant to religion. Not today.

Number of adherents does not make it any more or less true.

Nor does the age of the cult.

Truth is truth, be it many or one, be it brand new or ancient.

Making a claim to truth should not be determined by the number or age.

So how is religion any different from a cult or a science fiction convention?

What do you want me to say? I've already told you I can't explain it, not outside a Christian framework of Theology.

Husar

11-15-2007, 12:54

I didn't know that any car model was called a pinhead...
Doesn't sound like scientific or convincing evidence to me, resorting to such insults is usually done when one is out of arguments. ~;)

HoreTore

11-15-2007, 12:59

You have to ask that the guy who said that an angel sat on the front of his car saving him from getting squashed by a big truck.

What about the people who believe an alien was sitting on the front of their car and saved them?

Myrddraal

11-15-2007, 14:21

Husar

11-15-2007, 15:00

What about the people who believe an alien was sitting on the front of their car and saved them?
I haven't met one. ~D
And he'd obviously be nuts because Aliens aren't an accepted religion. :dizzy2:

Myrd, we had that before, seems hopeless. ~;)

JimBob

11-16-2007, 18:48

Religions, cults and science fiction conventions are all about as credible as the other.
The difference between religion and scifi is that scifi goes around saying 'this is ficiton have fun but then take the costume off' and includes things that are obviously fabricated. Religion claims to be the truth, lays out a code of morals, and although it includes things which cannot be proven there is a logical gap between cannot be proven and does not exist

The difference between a religion and a cult is that the religion demands critical thinking and reason. Reason and doubt are parts of Christian theology. Augustine and Aquinas don't just say "God is real, deal with it." They discuss why that is true, and they lay out the implications. There is even a Catholic doctrine for doubt. It's called "dark night of the soul". The cult demands blind obedience and unquestioning faith. There are cultist brands of Christianity, but they are far from the mainstream.

Maybe I read too much into your posts but,
Why do you see science and religion as opposed? Scientific advancement is fully in line with Christian theology. Science cannot disprove God. Honest science must remain silent on the God Question. Would you consider your beliefs agnostic or atheistic?

Sigurd

11-17-2007, 04:49

A debate about whether God exists or not could be done in another thread perhaps?
What about making it one of the Gahzette debates? :2thumbsup:

CountArach

11-17-2007, 06:57

What about making it one of the Gahzette debates? :2thumbsup:
I woud love to read Navaros vs anyone on that debate.

Viking

11-17-2007, 12:20

I didn't realise this topic was about the existance of God... It was initially about PJ's feelings towards his friends, then diverged into a discussion about people's attitudes towards conversion and theological discussion, trying to understand why people act like they do.

A debate about whether God exists or not could be done in another thread perhaps?

Or maybe we could rename this one. :eeeek:

Why do you see science and religion as opposed? Scientific advancement is fully in line with Christian theology. Science cannot disprove God. Honest science must remain silent on the God Question. Would you consider your beliefs agnostic or atheistic?

Science cannnot disprove the existence of a God directly... though indirectly. Evolution tells us our origin, and that our religious nature spawned somewhere in the evolutionary process; thus rendering religion as a product of evolution. If God created us similar to himself (I'm not quite sure how that sentence translates into English), one would also assume that God has passed through evolution, though this would make the concept of an allmighty God false.

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

11-17-2007, 13:10

Science cannnot disprove the existence of a God directly... though indirectly. Evolution tells us our origin, and that our religious nature spawned somewhere in the evolutionary process; thus rendering religion as a product of evolution. If God created us similar to himself (I'm not quite sure how that sentence translates into English), one would also assume that God has passed through evolution, though this would make the concept of an allmighty God false.

Falty logic, because the Bible says God molded us out of clay and breathed life into us. It says we were made in his image, not that we were made in the same way as him. Evolution certainly does not tell us where our "religious nature" came from, nor why.

It has produced theories but nothing more than that.

If you want to take evert iota of the Bible litterally then it's easy to disprove but most people don't take it at all litterally in that way.

Viking

11-17-2007, 14:41

Falty logic, because the Bible says God molded us out of clay and breathed life into us. It says we were made in his image, not that we were made in the same way as him. Evolution certainly does not tell us where our "religious nature" came from, nor why.

It has produced theories but nothing more than that.

If you want to take evert iota of the Bible litterally then it's easy to disprove but most people don't take it at all litterally in that way.

Well ok...if you do not accept the theory of evolution, then this logic does not lead anywhere. However, if one accept that everything living being around you are a result of evolution, then one see that their ways of living were "promoted" by the evolutionary processes, directly or indirectly. So whatever feature todays humans have, it is caused by evolution, and this of course, includes religion. When one look world wide, one see dozens of major religions. That means that all, apart from one religion, must be more or less completely wrong; OR that all religions are wrong, since logically, no religion can be favoured above another in any sense.
There is no need for a creator, because by that logic, the creator does also need a creator.

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

11-17-2007, 15:52

Well ok...if you do not accept the theory of evolution, then this logic does not lead anywhere.

I do, you have completely missed the point of my post. It says we were created in God's image not in the way God was created.

However, if one accept that everything living being around you are a result of evolution, then one see that their ways of living were "promoted" by the evolutionary processes, directly or indirectly. So whatever feature todays humans have, it is caused by evolution, and this of course, includes religion.

You can't prove that religion is a result of evolution, and in any case, if God is perfect he decided when we began the process that we would evolve religion.

When one look world wide, one see dozens of major religions. That means that all, apart from one religion, must be more or less completely wrong; OR that all religions are wrong, since logically, no religion can be favoured above another in any sense.
There is no need for a creator, because by that logic, the creator does also need a creator.

There is no logical reason why one religion can't be right and the rest wrong. That logic only works if all religions were created by men, since you can't prove that you're building on a foundation of sand.

Don't get me wrong, there's no way to prove one religion is right but there equally no way to disprove it; we don't have the information. That's why we have this thing called belief.

Now, shall we leave this or do you want to continue going round in circles?

Viking

11-17-2007, 18:27

I do, you have completely missed the point of my post. It says we were created in God's image not in the way God was created.

That is much of the same.

There is no logical reason why one religion can't be right and the rest wrong. That logic only works if all religions were created by men, since you can't prove that you're building on a foundation of sand.

Don't get me wrong, there's no way to prove one religion is right but there equally no way to disprove it; we don't have the information. That's why we have this thing called belief.

I tried to say that there is no logical reason as to why one would pick one religion instead of another.

Now, shall we leave this or do you want to continue going round in circles?

I can agree to disagree. :tongue:

Whacker

11-19-2007, 05:55

I see this train wreck is still going strong.

Sig, I'm sorry mate but I vote heavily against any kind of God vs No God debate. If you pit a reasonable atheist up against a reasonable christian, where it will always end up is the christian admitting that the only thing they can base their faith on is just that, blind faith, and the atheist admitting that there is no scientific way to either demonstrate the existence or non-existence of a/any god(s). The point where one most often runs into trouble is when the atheist claims they can disprove the non-existence of any theistic being through scientific methods (big bang theory, evolution, etc), or the christian attempts to claim they can do the reverse or refuses to acknowledge some or all aspects of science (peanut butter argument, so called carbon dating "flaws", trying to cast doubt on X theory, etc).

Thus if/when done right, it's always going to end up a draw. The only thing that I will say in this regard however is that as in the scientific method, the burden of proof is always on the claimant.